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Books, Criticism & Writing Questions

 
  

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miss wonderstarr
05:39 / 16.08.06
Bloom being Joyce as a pervert, to put it simply

If we're going on the notion that all authors surely put some aspect of themselves into their main characters though, and work on the principle that this constitutes "including yourself in the novel as a character", I think the list would include most novels.

Lewis Carroll as The White Knight and the Dodo in the Alice books is still another OK example in my opinion.

And Jeff Noon put himself explicitly into his bad follow-up, The Automated Alice.
 
 
astrojax69
06:07 / 16.08.06
but miss, i beg to ask, If we're going on the notion that all authors surely put some aspect of themselves into their main characters though; are we?

i think that there must be two kinds of [great] writers: one who are themselves the character as author, so write themselves as their means of expression; and those who see that there are many other ways to tell stories and paint canvasses. for instance, i wouldn't like to say it is marquez, or calvino, or shakespeare in each of these writers' myriad wonderful, rich characters.

but then, kerouac, hemingway, houellebecq and their ilk write themselves writ large and it is beautiful, too.
 
 
matthew.
13:48 / 16.08.06
I brought up Joyce because he felt his works must be autobiographical. Not all authors agree that literature is autobiographical. Just because I say Joyce, doesn't mean I believe in that aforementioned notion.
 
 
DavidXBrunt
18:18 / 16.08.06
Just finished Haunted and it's pretty good. Some stories fall flat, some are just plain silly, some are flesh creepingly grizzly, and some will oinger long in the mind. Recommended? Yeah, but skim read the first story 'Guts' first and see if it's your cup of tea.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
18:57 / 16.08.06
I brought up Joyce because he felt his works must be autobiographical. Not all authors agree that literature is autobiographical. Just because I say Joyce, doesn't mean I believe in that aforementioned notion.

OK. I thought Joyce = Bloom was a bit of a stretch, from which we could say (for instance) Updike = Rabbit Angstrom, Maupin = Mouse; but if Joyce has actually said he means to put himself into the novel as Bloom, that's a bit of a different category.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
19:05 / 16.08.06
I read 'Guts' when the Guardian magazine printed "The most disturbing story you've ever read" (or at least, I think was their headline). Naturally, I was really disapointed, but the story was pretty clever really, in that "tell you're mates a gross-out myth by torchlight" kind of way. Will check out 'Haunted' ASAP.

grant, I can't believe I didn't think of 'Breakfast of Champions'. One of the best books evah! Wasn't it his fifteeth [?] birthday present to himself to clear his mind of junk? -- I love that idea (must try doing it one day), and well, those last few pages are awesome. Mr Vonnegut is a living legend.

That typed, I think 'Hunger' is a better example of autobiographical fiction - the main character is based on Knut Hamsun himself and his experiences in America, apparently. But then, I'm still not sure if the brief for this question was about actually putting oneself in the fiction as a named character, or not so... Fine line?
 
 
matthew.
12:28 / 17.08.06
I thought Joyce = Bloom was a bit of a stretch

Stephen = young Joyce

and Bloom = middle-aged Joyce
 
 
miss wonderstarr
14:43 / 17.08.06
Is it as simple as "equals", in the case of Bloom and Joyce? You're saying one "is" the other? I'm not really an expert having only read the novels (sauf Finnegans Wake) and not any books about Joyce, but I would have thought there were quite a lot of differences between the author and Bloom.

If I'm simply being ignorant, then mea culpa as they might say. Mon semblable, mon frere.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:27 / 17.08.06
You are by no means being ignorant.
 
 
grant
17:24 / 17.08.06
I'm trying really hard to think of the comic from the Silver Age that had some famous comic artist being threatened by the Joker or something on the cover. George Perez? I've only read about the thing, not read the thing itself. Maybe it's Batman begging him not to finish the story....

I know I had a copy of a Creepy story in a paperback book (not a TPB, but a paperback B/W reprint, same size as any dime-store paperback) where the comic artist had to keep drawing a story to keep something at bay, and the last panel was the thing getting him at the drawing table, where there was a picture of the thing getting him at the drawing table, where there was a picture of the thing getting him at the drawing table. I can't remember the name of the story, although I know the paperback also included "Valley of the Gonteekwa" illustrated by Frank Frazetta.

In film, one of the best examples was Wes Craven's New Nightmare, where the stars of all the Nightmare on Elm Street movies play themselves - actors in LA - during some bad earthquakes, during which they come to believe they're being stalked by the *real* Freddy Krueger, which is a kind of extra-dimensional force that has to be confined within a story or else it wreaks havoc. It's a much better movie than you'd probably expect. Wes Craven is delightful as himself, writing the sequel he told himself he'd never write.

Earlier than that, though, there's some strangeness in The Stuntman, where Peter O'Toole plays The Director. This is less author-in-work as it is a work about the weirdness of authoring. The Director could be read as God or Satan, and some things in the film seem to be from the film inside the film... it's easier just to watch the thing.
 
 
matthew.
18:45 / 17.08.06
Fair enough, miss w, it is not nearly as simple as saying Bloom equals Joyce at this age.

If it were that simple (and thank *diety* that it's not), then there wouldn't be James Joyce Quarterly or hundreds of thousands of pages and pages about the most minute things in Ulysses.

I don't claim to be a Joyce expert and I gave a disclaimer in my first couple posts about giving the intrepretation a superficiality.

Regardless, the simplest way of putting it is that Bloom is based, in part, on Joyce at that age, Joyce's father, and Odysseus (or however Haus would like me to spell it).
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:36 / 17.08.06
Stan Lee certainly appeared in his own comics. Also, I think Julie Schwartz and maybe Gardner Fox guest-starred in some DCU comics ~ I think I even remember reading somewhere that there's a Julie Schwartz mini-"universe" in the DCU, ie. one where he as editor (or perhaps writer at that point) co-exists with the superheroes.

[... looks it up]

Apparently, this all happened on Earth-Prime, which is a really weird universe that was meant to be "our" world, but obviously isn't, because it does have a few superheroes in it.

"To get back to his own world, the Flash enlisted the help of the Julius Schwartz of Earth Prime, the editor of The Flash comics in 1968 (like his Earth Real counterpart). After convincing him of his authenticity, the Flash got Schwartz to bankroll him for materials which he used to construct a Cosmic Treadmill. With this device, he returned to Earth One. Julius Schwartz of Earth Prime kept the Treadmill in a closet of his office for many years thereafter."
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:36 / 20.08.06
Writer self = narrator self occurs in Proust, I believe, and also (I got told) in Madame Bovary, who *is* Flaubert, gender-switched. Surprisingly effective disguise/freeing technique for a lot of writers, I suspect.
 
 
matthew.
01:55 / 21.08.06
Oh, let's just say it:

Tristam Shandy?
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
03:11 / 21.08.06
You know which one we all forgot, don't cha?...

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..." (Genesis, The Bible)
 
 
ORA ORA ORA ORAAAA!!
09:53 / 21.08.06
I was just talking about this today with a friend at uni (because I'm reading the Dark Tower final book), and one of the people who came up was Joseph Heller, as, probably, Yossarian, though in one of the sequels, Closing Time, a character called Joe Heller is referenced as someone Yossarian grew up with.

But his final book (or latest, I'm not sure of the correct word to use there) is about an elderly author, who wrote his heartbreaking work of staggering genius as a young man, based on his experiences in the army as a bombadier, and who has never been able to recapture the same level of eloquence/compelling-narrative-ness.

Which seems to be the thing to do for an elderly author dealing with etc etc.
 
 
matthew.
13:48 / 21.08.06
William Gaddis' Agape Agape is another one....
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
22:56 / 21.08.06
Alistair Gray's Lanark.

Also, I think On The Road is a defo - the first draft used his real name as narrator. And many of the Orwell novels. His work really blurs the boundary between journalism and fiction, especially the early books. Is Down and Out in Paris and London a novel?
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
22:56 / 21.08.06
Alistair Gray's Lanark.

Also, I think On The Road is a defo - the first draft used his real name as narrator. And many of the Orwell novels. His work really blurs the boundary between journalism and fiction, especially the early books. Is Down and Out in Paris and London a novel?
 
 
Axolotl
20:22 / 22.08.06
What novels are out there which feature author-characters?
I'd recommend Suzy, Led Zeppelin, & Me and Ruby and the Stone Age Diet by Martin Millar. Both of them feature the author as a character, and are both good, especially the first one. That alternates between the main story as told in flashback and the author talking with his friend in the present day about the book that he's writing about the flashbacks. It really is good, though my description doesn't really do it justice.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
04:30 / 23.08.06
So what novels are there that don't feature author-characters?
 
 
matthew.
04:53 / 23.08.06
Lots.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:43 / 23.08.06
Oh, I... I wonder if you see what... what "point" I was making.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
15:56 / 23.08.06
Well, quite - I think doozy's initial question suggests that ze was looking for examples where the author appears as 'him or her self' in the book, not books which include characters that might or might not be intended as representations of the author.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
18:22 / 23.08.06
I wasn't being quite that snarky, though that distinction had occurred to me above ~ I was trying to suggest up-thread that maybe our definition of "author as characters" was getting too wide.

No, my point was simply that there seemed so many cases of author-in-the-text that I was asking if there were any cases of author not in the text. Like if someone's swamping their pie with ketchup and you say "do you want some pie with your ketchup?" Ha! Ha! ... ah... hm.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:06 / 14.10.06
Peter Pan- Alan Moore mentioned a chapter where fairies come home from an orgy and have to climb over a sleeping Lost Boy. Then I believe he said that this had been edited out of modern versions. Is this the case, are modern copies of the book different from what Barrie wrote? And if so, how easy is it, relatively speaking, to get one's hands on the original version?
 
 
doozy floop
16:50 / 19.12.06
What is slash fiction? I have a feeling - possibly misguided - that it might not be a good thing to whack into google at work. But, I know nothing; I am ashamed...
 
 
sorenson
18:56 / 19.12.06
well, slash definitely wouldn't be safe for most workplaces!

slash is when fans write stories, usually sexually explicit, putting together characters who are not romantically linked in the original tv series/book/film etc. it's named after the punctuation mark - slash - between the character's names - for example kirk/spock (the original slash couple).

like all fanfiction, the quality of slash is wildly variable. but it's a beautiful thing nonetheless.
 
 
Lea-side
10:33 / 20.12.06
Have we mentioned Ballard yet? most of his books are written in the first-person, from a character usually named as 'James' in some cases (IIRC) 'Ballard'....
 
 
Ex
12:34 / 20.12.06
Doozy - Slash also tends to involve same-sex couples (I know this kind of get heavily debated - is it just chaps, or do ladies count also? Lady-lady stuff is sometimes called femslash).
 
 
doozy floop
16:41 / 20.12.06
Aha! I see: thank you all. What a sheltered life I have led. Does anyone know more - is slash fiction mainly internet-based? Does it date back before Kirk and Spock, and does it mainly use sci-fi stories? I don't really know much about fanfiction either but I'm curious about the impact of the interweb generally on fiction and writing...
 
 
sorenson
19:09 / 20.12.06
Doozy - Slash also tends to involve same-sex couples

wow, that bit of it is so self-evident to me that i completely forgot to include it in my 2-bit definition! i tend to include f/f in slash. there are a few related genres of fan fiction and fan art too, particularly related to Japanese comics.

From what I know, slash started well before the internet, through zine-based fandoms. though i think it is safe to say that the internet has facilitated a much bigger and more diverse range of slash (as it has for fandom generally). kirk/spock is generally acknowledged as the original slash couple.

The wikipedia entry gives a pretty good rundown of the various types of slash and some of the controversies. it's safe for work, too.
 
  

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