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The aim of teaching American Literature

 
  

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alas
15:05 / 08.01.05
King of Town: I'm very interested in your stance, and although I think I basically disagree with it, I'd really like to have a better sense as to why you came to hold it. Would you mind sharing?

I do teach latino/Chicano literature on a fairly regular basis in my survey courses. I don't think I'm simply a "commie," although I probably lean more left than most people, admittedly. But I also bet that we're not so different from each other.

I think it may help if we could together answer the following question:

What is the purpose of college / university education (in the U.S.)?

I think about this question almost every day, because it's my job to. That's my role in this mainly capitalistic country, and I willingly take that job on. That's why I don't think it would be fair to see my stance as simply a left wing stance: it derives from the source of my income.

Here's how I see it: In this country I think that most people (both in and out of the university) actually pretty much agree on about three main purposes for college education, although some would emphasize one or two of these way over the others:

1) to help individual students compete successfully--by giving them skills and knowledge and credentials--in what is, in our case, seen as a predominantly capitalistic culture, and

2) to train citizens for democratic participation (they need to read and understand what is going on in order to vote--both literally and "with their pocketbooks") and to make informed choices in their daily lives.

This is why states spend a lot of money on education. (Also, arguably, even from a conservative, right-wing view point, poorly educated citizens end up costing money, because they are almost certainly more likely to directly commit violent crimes, to engage in the black-market economy, and therefore also to be involved in the criminal justice system. Children do not tend to fare well being raised under these circumstances.)

3) to work towards a better society, overall, by providing new research and ideas that will allow for humans to survive and thrive in a changing world. (I say "humans" because I think, realistically, most of our work--even work that is focused on environmental protection is designed to promote human survival: we need our complex ecosystem to be healthy because one way or another our survival probably is linked to its survival.)

AND I also would add:

4) to train students that thinking can actually be fun and deeply pleasureable on its own. "The unexamined life is not worth living," Plato once said (right Haus?). And, even if the examined life is painful sometimes, and ignorance can seem kind of blissful (wouldn't we be happier not knowing about all the pain and suffering in the world?), there are complex personal rewards to be gained from thinking and broadening one's own experience.

(I think many parents want this for their own children, but when they start thinking about other kids and public education, it falls off the charts. )

I am concerned to help my students do all these things. I teach students from a variety of backgrounds--some are at my college mostly on financial aid and scholarships. I would be doing them, especially, a disservice if I didn't emphasize point #1--how to write and read critically in a way that will help them get and keep good jobs. I have to grade these students hard, but at the same time also work to help them get the credentials--the degree--they need to get a good job. (Sometimes that can cause conflict in my relation with students, as you can maybe see?)

Sometimes it can really help students who come from an ethnic minority in the US to read at least one or two pieces of literature that seem to describe a world like the one they came from. Or that suggest that their history is complex and interesting and worth knowing about. It's not all they should learn, but it can be a welcome incentive on the road, to keep going, even if the going is very tough.

And I would also be doing my students, and my country, a disservice if I didn't try to help to work towards 2, 3, and 4. And I also teach many relatively privileged students whose education up to this point has pretty much reaffirmed their view of the world. If I don't challenge them to see the world in a more complex way, then I have failed them. Having them read Chicano/a or African American literature can make them think more critically.

Thinking critically is the key skill for all of those goals, at least in relation to my profession--teaching reading and writing and history. To make it in this world without lots of family connections and rich friends, as most of my students need to, they need to learn to see the complexities of the world. To look for what seems so "normal" to most people, and try to come at it from a new angle. That's how new solutions to old problems are found.

I think teaching a variety of writing, from a variety of backgrounds, helps me to better accomplish this task.

And, dammit!, it's more pleasureable to be surprised! To hear David Walker telling off Thomas Jefferson IN 1829! for saying that black people are like orangutans is AMAZING! To hear Gloria Anzaldu'a write in "spanglish" in 1988 about linguistic complexity and cultural identity in south Texas is interesting! To have a black Chemistry student come in to my office after reading Malcolm X and tell me his whole view of the world has just become more complex and troubling is incredible--I watched him sit there, kind of stunned by the work, feeling like he needed to re-think everything in his whole life.

To have another student tell me she's sending copies of all her papers to her father in prison because she believes he needs to read this stuff is ... well, words can't describe it. To have a Latina student tell me she's just fallen in love with WASPy Adrienne Rich is incredible! Some of my most privileged, honors students identify strongly with the experience of Latino writer Richard Rodriguez, because their families can't quite understand that they want an education for reasons that go beyond 1, or even 2 and 3--and on to 4.

I teach this stuff because it works in a kind of magical way to help the variety of students I teach work on all the skills I know they need to develop into whole human beings. And I think pleasure is a big part of that. I don't teach these writers like they're some kind of "P.C." medicine, but BECAUSE I like them. Usually, in fact, they've managed to say something that I hadn't thought of before, or that I really think the world needs to hear (see point 3) and they've done so in an interesting way--maybe even in a way that feels awkward or even "bad" at first, but which often becomes more intelligible as it becomes more "heard."

Well, that was longer than I intended. Hope it helps.
 
 
King of Town
03:02 / 09.01.05
First up, we said "American Literature" above. I assume you are taking that to mean *North* American literature?

Haus: Actually, you don't seem to understand the full magnitude of how arrogant we are in the U.S. When we say 'American' we aren't only excluding South America, we're actually excluding Mexico and Canada too (I can't recall a hearing a single exception to this rule, though maybe somewhere else in the country it's different? If we mean to include other countries we'll say 'North America' or 'the Americas'.)

Actually, I didn't address what the 'more important qualities' are because I thought that had been covered pretty well upthread. I think that popularity of the books is one and the influence that the books have had is another. I just find race to be generally insignificant. It doesn't correlate directly to culture. Culture is infinitely more important than race to me.

I have read great authors from various religions and would expect various religions to be represented in the authorship list of a literature class, but incidentally rather than purposefully. I also have heard of great black authors. In fact I've been reading the autobiography of Frederick Douglass lately. My point wasn't that all the best authors are WASP as that is obviously not the case. Whites just outnumber other races here in America (meaning the US). My point was that a book should be judged on its own merits and not the merits of the author.

Alas: I very much agree with your purposes of college. If I were writing them, I probably would have said: 1 gain knowlede, 2 learn new ways of thinking, 3 have a good career, but you wrote it more articulately than I. I most particularly agree with literature that expands your ways of thinking and helps you see the world in a more complex way. That's one I hadn't thought of but now that you've mentioned it, it reminds me of my very favorite quality of two of my favorite authors: they show deep understanding of human nature in their books and encourage the reader think more open mindedly.

One of the reasons that I like Barbelith is that most of the people here think differently from me and I can see things from their perspective and have a broader view of the world.

So, how I came to my stance? Well, I guess it's a display of my ignorance that I hadn't heard of any good Latino authors, though now that he's been mentioned I had heard of Allende, I just hadn't gotten around to reading anything by him yet. Part of my problem is that the libraries here have very little selection in Spanish. Actually, though I'm fluent in Spanish, I'm more comfortable reading in English because that's what I use the most. I've read the scriptures a lot in Spanish, but that's pretty much it.

Culturally, I'm a lot more WASP than Mexican. My Mom's family has been in the US for 3 generations and my dad's family is all white. (Actually my paternal grandpa married a Mexican a few years ago, but that's recent.) That's why when I said that some people would call me latino I meant to imply that I don't call myself that except on government forms. My culture is mostly white with a dash of Mexican. And besides that I find don't really care for the word latino. IRL I usually just say mexican for anyone from south of the border unless I know specifically where the person is from. Kind of similar to how a lot of americans call all asians (except arabs) Chinese regardless of their country of origen.

You obviously have a lot more experience in the world of Literature than I do and I was really happy to see your examples making a difference in students' lives with your selection of books. It makes me wonder whether you know any good Deaf authors. I'm learning American Sign Language and the Deaf culture is in many ways very different from our hearing culture. Most of the time, the differences don't catch my attention that much, but when I bring a hearing friend around my Deaf friends, sometimes I notice it more. Or when I was in ASLI 1010 I noticed it a lot because we had a 'no voice' policy and so I would act appropriate to a Deaf culture situation even though the only Deaf person there was the professor and the hearing students hadn't learned as much as I had about Deaf culture yet at that point.

It's interesting to point out that in Deaf culture, race is considered a physical characteristic with no more importance than eye color for the most part.
 
 
alas
21:27 / 09.01.05
K-o-T: Your comments are really intriguing; I don't know much literature by deaf authors or written for deaf audiences, which seems like it would be pretty interesting. There's a new, growing area of the humanities called "disability studies" that is starting to explore these questions, but the main writer I am familiar with on disability is a woman named Nancy Mairs who has MS. Her issues are quite different than would be a deaf person's, and of course the whole concept of "disability" as a category that lumps such differing people together is often contested in the field (as I understand it--it's not my area), but, well, like most things, it's a start. I'm super busy now, but if I get a chance I'll try to snoop around and find something.
 
 
alas
21:34 / 09.01.05
Oh, and by the way, Frederick Douglass is one of my favorite writers; if you are reading his 1845 Narrative, that's great, but I love his second, longer version, the 1855 My Bondage and My Freedom--his view of "freedom" is much richer and complex, 10 years on. Also, his great speech, "What to the Slave is the 4th of July?" is definitely worth reading, I think. And then there's W.E.B. DuBois's poetic The Souls of Black Folk.

You might like Richard Rodriguez's essay, "The Achievement of Desire" (it's a chapter from his autobiography, The Hunger of Memory. He's actually fairly conservative politically but I like the complexity of his thought. And then it's good to read Gloria Anzaldua, who has a totally different view of language. Ok, I'll stop teaching now...
 
 
alas
23:35 / 10.01.05
I'm re-reading this thread as I'm preparing to pull together my American Literature survey course syllabus. It's great to have a discussion like this with interested non-specialists. Several people have, in passing, asked for "reports from the trenches." e.g.--

I think it would be useful if someone could give me an idea about the actual state of academia and teaching, to properly understand the debate. Alas?

--and I love imagining myself as being in a trench, of course--who doesn't?

And so first I'll say that I pretty much agree with everything diz says--especially his first post. I think he's right that our main job in most survey courses is the "mapping of the territory" -- what are the major genres, schools, periods, and trends and texts that seemed to emerge in different contexts and why, and let "geeks" in the specific subfields help us decide what texts will help us at least hit the high points and low points of the terrain so students have a rough idea of the lay of the land and how to find their way about in it--terminology and reading skills that will help them detect patterns in other works of the time. (L'Anima/Lurid: he was talking about more than showing them the library, that wasn't a fair critique, to my mind).

But I can also sympathize with L'Anima/Lurid's sense of disquiet, especially, his argument that diz's answer seems to leave something, something at least vaguely qualitative, out. I agree that Diz's answer does feel a little nebulous, because I think there is a kind of qualitative understanding that still operates for most of us (esp. us liberal "multiculturalists" so to speak) because we do make decisions all the time about which texts we value more than others. But I'll argue that this value judgment is not based on a sense of an "intrinsic" kind of quality, that e13 was initially arguing for, and then pulled away from--for good reason.

And I think e13 is on to something when he realizes it does distort history a bit to imply they [Poe, Melville, Hurston] had a big impact on their contemporaries...an impression which any chronological lit survey can't help but create.

Ah! But I think a GOOD course CAN avoid that impression!

So here's what I think is the missing piece of the puzzle: [drumroll?]

Most academics, today, think in terms of a text's "cultural work"--i.e., what a specific work sought to accomplish with its readers, what impact sought to have in the broader culture--rather than the more "intrinsic" notion of "quality." (My gut tells me that Diz would agree?, because this concept is completely inextricable from context.)

So what I'm thinking of, as I make decisions about which texts I want to teach (beyond just "do I like this?"--the most important one!), is: what kind of cultural work did this text (or, if there are several possibilities, texts like it) accomplish, or seek to accomplish, by being published? I tend to be most interested in texts, even "failed" texts, that have an ambitious agenda--they seek to make a difference in the way things are--to comment on the way things are and, possibly, even to create a grass roots change in the culture as a whole. Or in texts that are audacious simply in daring to speak truth to a powerful audience. My question is "How did they do that? What language did they use to try to reach this audience?" (One of my favorite genres, as a result, is the slave narrative tradition.)

Some works like this are immediately powerful, and powerful with its audience--the Declaration of Independence was and is a powerful text in this regard. I always teach it in my (early) survey. I like to get my students to think about the United States as a nation founded on written documents--as a literary nation in that regard. (Is it "literature"? Yes. Anybody wanna fight about that?)

Uncle Tom's Cabin is a powerful text, today, TO ME and many others, despite its sentimental language and style, partly because it sought to accomplish amazing things: it wanted to turn the value system that undergirded the United States and the global economy--patriarchalism and capitalism and slavery--on its head. (Was it racist? Yes.) It was still audacious for a white woman to speak to an audience of mostly white women in a way that implied those women, her readers, were powerful political agents whose moral suasion in the home could turn the world upside down. The book wanted to change the way the world works! It placed women at the center of the social universe--not the periphery! It clearly played a role in making slavery visible to the broader culture. Yet it's debatable how powerful it ultimately ended up being in terms of its own goals. I love reading James Baldwin's critique of its sentimentalism and the problems with that sentimentalism, too, but it doesn't make the book less important. To me, it's a great text--not crap at all.

And then there are the "failed but fabulous" texts: There's MOBY DICK, which many readers hated in its day. But it was bravely experimental in its approach and asking questions about the relationship between humans and the natural world that were in the air, but not asked in quite the same way. It was trying to make a big difference--and we can now see its prescience when we look at the global economy and environment. But mostly people said, "Huh?" back then.

Then, even more failed: take, for example, Harriet Jacobs's INCIDENTS IN THE LIFE OF A SLAVE GIRL. The text was lost, derided as probably being written by a white woman, and forgotten. I teach it because it is amazing on many levels, not so much because " I gotta teach a black woman" but because this woman, from a position of virtually complete legal and social and economic powerlessness sought to talk about, for one thing, sexual exploitation in a culture that made a frank, public discussion of such a topic, by any woman (let alone an enslaved black woman who always had to fight the dehumanizing stereotype of being a kind of animal-in-heat), almost impossible. I'm fascinated by the way she negotiates the minefield of this topic, and how she helps me see the world she lived in, in a way that no other writer does. But for a variety of reasons, from racism to sexism to bad timing to bad luck, the book couldn't be heard by most people in its day.

So: cultural work. Some texts essentially serve to reaffirm the status quo, which is a kind of cultural work. I am not so interested in those texts. (I do, however, teach Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia, which makes the overtly racist argument about orangutans mentioned above, so that I can watch David Walker demolish it! And to offer a complex picture of Jefferson, alongside the Declaration. And to then talk about what happened to David Walker--dead on his doorstep, in obscurity, although belatedly his words galvanized the abolitionist movement.) And, Hawthorne: Hawthorne has ALWAYS been critically hailed and remains a powerful writer. He's an interesting case, too...

I could go on and on but I will stop now.
 
 
King of Town
18:01 / 14.01.05
I love people who have a lot to say and yet everything they say has substance to it. Huggles to alas!
 
 
sleazenation
00:12 / 16.01.05
I think I have to agree that there is a necessary cultural component in any text, canonical or otherwise. However, I think it important to add that the key component isn't necessarily just the possible aims of the author, how it was recieved at the time or even its cultural context, but the very fact that it was written in the first place, how it was written and the language it was written in...

The silences and the abcences are sometimes as important as the texts themselves...
 
 
alas
02:03 / 17.01.05
I'm interested in this, but am not sure I'm completely understanding you, sleaze--

but the very fact that it was written in the first place, how it was written and the language it was written in...

. . . and, say, the means of publication/ distribution--if it was published, distributed (Edward Taylor, Emily Dickinson basically didn't publish in their lifetimes)?

In David Walker's "Appeal to the Coloured Citizens of the World" he claims that black people in the US are more dehumanized than in any other place in the world and that black folks should resist and refuse this status and defend themselves when necessary. He knew it was dangerous and that no one would publish it. So he printed it himself and then slipped it into the pockets of black sailors who came to buy clothes in his used clothing shop.

The FACT of this essay's existence is extraordinary. It's use of Jefferson's language and style in order to turn it against him. These material issues are critical, I agree.

Is that the kind of thing you are getting at, sleaze? I suspect you maybe meant "language" more broadly--the fact of the increasing domination of the English language as a colonizing language.
 
 
sleazenation
14:38 / 17.01.05
I should admit that by ‘language’ I was simply referring to the language any given text was recorded in, but having said which, the broader point I was attempting to make was indeed that the means and form of publication, among other things, have a significant impact on the text.

I also think its interesting and necessary to examine North America as being home to three (main), still competing, colonizing languages (English, Spanish and French) as well as a host of native languages.
 
 
alas
00:44 / 18.01.05
Yes! There are two main anthologies of US lit--one published by Heath and one by Norton. (There are others, of course, and this is probably a disputable point, but be that as it may), the Heath is the one that really emphasizes "America"--as a whole, north, south, central, as a site of contested (and still competing) languages and cultures. A contact zone. I have ceased using an anthology in favor of lots of separate texts and online resources, but I'm still strongly influenced by this approach to AmLIt. (Dutch had its day, esp. in NY, and German was incredibly strong as a language until WWI, too--esp. in Penn, Ohio--the old "Western" states, and other areas of the midwest.)

When you earlier said that your impression was that US lit seemed to be more, ummm, monolingual--I think you suggested that y'all read more lit in tranlsation? (I don't think you used that term, but that was the impression I had.) How does what we've been saying about it compare to what "English Lit" is, when taught in British universities? I'm curious and interested.
 
 
sleazenation
10:05 / 18.01.05
Well firstly, I studied a course that combined the study of both English Language and Lit. (it seemed absurd to me to study either element in isolation).

We studied the works of a variety of authors from around the world, most of whom wrote in English, this inevitably lead to the question of post-colonial lit.

However in certain areas (modules on drama, satire, gender and writing and post-modernism especially) we read English translations texts including Candide, Zola's The Lady's paradise as well as a variety of Borges short stories, Clarice Lispector's The Hour of the Star, Calvino's If on a Winter's night and George Perec's A Void (a translation that is remarkable in the fact that like the original french text, it does not include the letter e )...

We also read English translations of various plays from the classics such as Antigone and Igphigenia through to the likes Checkov, Ibsen and Buchner. We glanced briefly at Beowulf in Old English but then hastily moved on to its modern translation.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
10:48 / 18.01.05
Ah! I did wonder whether the conversation would come round to international "equivalents" to American Literature. I should have started the thread off a little more open-ended, but the start of the discussion was specific to America, and I couldn't think of a short and graceful way to say something along the lines of "the aim of teaching American Literature in America/English Literature in England/French Literature in France etc"...

(And sorry for starting a thread and disappearing, but pretty much everything I might have said kept being said better by other people, particularly diz; I have been reading with interest, though...)

Anyway: English Lit courses. My knowledge of these might not be extensive enough to be entirely representative, so someone please correct me wherever I'm inaccurate, but I believe the courses here tend to have rather different focuses in their attempts to encourage diversity of study.

Racial diversity and the associated differences in culture tend to play a much less significant role in British history prior to the last 50 years or so, and therefore are given rather less focus in literature courses. Britain is, of course, an immigrant nation, but as far as I'm aware the majority of immigration is either after the two world wars, or when the Saxons came and earlier. Discourse about race is more prevalent relatively recently, but it's only fifty years out of thousands, rather than the entirety of the 230-year history of non-native Americans.

Rather, I think that cultural diversity issues here are more focused on gender and class, and more recently a little bit on sexuality, apart from which the focus is more on different styles and schools of writing throughout history, and different literary theories: Romanticism, modernism, post-modernism, medieval literature, structuralism, deconstruction...

Perhaps someone a little better versed in a few different English Lit courses could expand and explain a little better...? I feel I may still be a little off the mark...

(Ah, and having just read sleaze's post, yes, international literature written in/translated into English, too, though I'm not sure if this is English Lit so much as just... well, Lit, full stop. Focus on post-colonialism is interesting, though... are writers affected by England's colonialist activities - and part of its empire - therefore part of "English" Lit?)
 
 
sleazenation
23:01 / 18.01.05
I think the simple fact is that in the main American Literature is a small part of the narrative of the larger body of colonial literatures in whose languages it has literally been written in.

I use the refer to ‘languages’ above because, as I think I mentioned in my earlier post, North American Literature is dominated by three main colonial languages in which it is written. (And it is probably worth noting that all three of these languages are all written using the Roman alphabet… the shadow of the Empire is long…)

PC Pingle – I’m not sure how you perceive ‘racial diversity’ and its importance as opposed to religious, ethnic and, perhaps more relevant to a discussion about language, linguistic diversity which has been a great influence on the evolution of the modern English language. You certainly seem to gloss over the Norman conquest of Britain in 1066 which saw a massive and lasting influence of French language and culture on England and the English, the fact that the Britain is itself a combination of three different countries (and lets not include the thorny issue of Ireland just yet) as well as the various immigrants that came to Britain, particularly in the 19th century.

An entertaining book (and equally entertaining TV series) on the evolution of English as a language is The Adventure Of English by Melvyn Bragg, well worth a read…
 
 
alas
00:25 / 19.01.05
PC pingle: It's quite possible that I'm entirely self-serving and self-interested, but I've enjoyed having the initial focus very specifically on American literature--yeah, it's my area of expertise, ok, I get to show off, 'kay, I admit it, I love talking about this stuff--but it's kind of nice to have a specific example to start from and now we can work out to these more broad literary issues...

(I'd like to hear from Deva, who's deep in the Brit. lit trenches, I believe? If she's had the patience to work through this whole thread, that is.)

sleaze--I suspect the study of literature within most US departments of English is constrained in some ways that are not typical of Lit depts in the UK. The biggest problem being: the pathetic state of foreign language education in the U.S.

I'm going to make some generalizations about the average US student, based on 15 years of teaching them in the midwestern U.S.--two very different institutions--and conversations with teachers around country. It's probably not entirely fair or precise, but well, fuck fair. (That's a joke--I'm prepared to be corrected or reprimanded for the following...)

People here are by and large convinced they don't need to learn another language. Even Spanish--if they do learn it, they figure they're set up for working more directly with "poor people" by and large, and that's not a fast track to power and wealth. And it's hard. And they haven't had language education starting from a young age--they don't start till they're in high school, usually, by which time their brains are less set up for learning a new language. So they hate it, and avoid moving deeply into any second language. Many students will take a different language in college from the one they took in high school (often for only two years), just to avoid really having to work at getting closer to fluency in a specific, second language.

So, we have these very pathetic language requirements in US universities, even within many lit departments, because the students come in so ill-prepared to learn, and they're already disposed against the learning of another language, and with no external sense that this is something vital to their future. It's very difficult to get them to move beyond the most elementary knowledge of another language.

As a result, teachers of languages and literatures other than English get frustrated--especially at small institutions like mine--because they are stuck doing so much very basic teaching of basic grammar, introductory courses. As a result, they often defend their lit. "turf"--lit in translation, especially--fairly rigorously. They don't want other people--the big, colonizing, English department, for example (which is almost always the biggest department in colleges of liberal arts and sciences, because everyone has to take english 101: freshman composition)--teaching literature from "their" languages.

Lit in translation courses are one of their few opportunities to think and talk about things beyond subject verb agreement and sentence construction . . .So if the English depts start doing too much translated literature, they have a harder time getting students into the one or two lit in translation courses they teach. And, admittedly, some English profs here aren't very knowledgeable about the cultures whence this lit comes, because we're coming from the same stupid, navel-gazing culture.

It's all a little fucked, but it has many of my colleagues in the English dept a little wary of stepping outside our baileywick, literature in English. I've been team teaching with a colleague in Spanish, however, because I think these barriers need to be broken down. And I've learned a whole lot--even though my degrees were in both English and Spanish.

In my institution, however, there's not a lot of trust between the two departments--i.e., we're a smaller school where there's an English dept, and a "Foreign Languages Dept" which includes everything from Spanish to Chinese. I know that "mistakes have been made" on both sides of this divide.

I think, in a European setting, you have better ability to teach in ways that cross borders. HOWEVER, I'm not willing to give up just yet.

I think it IS important, to view every course--even one course that focuses exclusively on American literature--to try to open it up more. I'd like to do more lit in translation--I just need to think more about this.

Were most of your courses, sleaze, focused on either genre or theme rather than nation/period distinctions?

I also think a fear of theory plays into this--genre courses wind up being theory courses. When I teach "national" literature courses, i.e., American literature, I focus a great deal on historical context. Both are useful ways of understanding literature--and I'm trying to get my dept to move more in the direction of including some genre/theme courses, but it's a bit of a struggle. We've just been divided down the Brit v. American line so long.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:31 / 19.01.05
Alas, alas, I fear your view of British language education is a little rosier than the reality (whereas language education in most of the rest of Europe is generally excellent). Language education in the state sector usually starts at 11, and I don't think anyone is obliged to take a language after the age of 14 (or possibly 16).

Early specialisation also means that many university students probably haven't studied a language at any advanced level, even if they are reading a humanities or arts subject (e.g. me - read history, 4 A-levels, no languages after GCSE beyond a solitary Scottish Higher in Spanish... pathetic, really). On the other hand, students studying languages probably have a greater knowledge of them; but there aren't that many of them. Reading single or joint-school honours means there isn't a huge incentive to improve this at university either.

Now back to your scheduled topic...
 
 
sleazenation
10:33 / 19.01.05
I'd warn that in the UK learning of foreign languages is not particularly better - when I was a school you started learning a foreign language (usually French) at around age 11 until you were 16 (with the additional option of adding another language, in my case German, when I was 13). While I enjoyed French at school I found I was taught to a basic very standard that falls a long way from fluency - there was a massive gap between the standard of French required at school and that required at A-level (taken over two years at age 16-18).

On lit in translation - the best lecture I ever attended was given by Umberto Eco on literature in translation - it was at University of Toronto and I snuck in 'cause I wasn't studying there, but I think the lecturers were just glad to see a big turn out... but I digress.

As for the break down of the course titles I studied at University - yes they were mainly theme/genre orientated 'Theory' was a big important one for the first year which was built on in later courses. However, There were a few exeptions Late Victorian Fiction and Society certainly did focus on a time period firstly and the themes thereof, while Contemporary Drama focused on Irish drama (and by extention, Irish politics) to the exclusion of all else. We even had some courses orientated around American lit. - There was one one 'the American South' and... the name of the other one escapes me - I didn't take them since the other options I had at the time seemed more interesting.
 
 
alas
23:55 / 22.01.05
I stand corrected of idealizing to some degree British foreign language instruction. Although, if you remember that I'm in the midwestern US--where even many, most?, college graduates never bother to get a passport--perhaps you'll understand why I often feel that surely there is no more provincial "advanced country" on earth. At least in my darker moments.

I am interested in how, and how much, literature is taught in secondary schools there in the UK, and any other places represented by 'lithers?

Here, part of the emphasis on American literature courses is a sense that the "practical" use value of "exposing" children to US lit, is that it helps teach US history. (And reading / writing skills.) So US lit is taught in essentially every high school, in its own designated course, usually at the same time that students are taking (and rapidly forgetting) the hagiographic version of US history they learn in h.s. And most secondary schools have some sort of Brit lit course, because politicians have heard of Shakespeare and approve of children being exposed to the bard (when he's wearing some suitable trenchcoat...)

So I think that's partly where the strong emphasis on nationhood in many "English Departments" in the US comes from--it begins in the high schools. In part.

On the other hand, historically, "English Departments" in US universities, until about the 1970s, I believe, taught mainly or exclusively British literature, including a few Irish writers from time to time, and maybe the odd course on 19th century American literature, and maybe a "get some historical background" Puritans course redolent with sermons and the poetry of Edward Taylor. And that was about it. Things have changed here, in that "American" (US) literature has gained a bigger presence in the curriculum--for better and worse--but I think many departments remain pretty haunted by the national divisions.

(My undergrad and graduate institutions, however, were both structured more along genre lines than nationality, which was slightly unusual then and I think is more unusual now).

How is literature typically taught in the secondary schools and universities where you all live?

When I was in Scotland many years ago, I was surprised, and delighted, by all the public monuments devoted to Robert Burns, Sir Walter Scott, and, to a lesser degree, Robert L. Stevenson. I realize that such adulation can be problematic in a variety of ways. But, at heart, I am a lit person, and it was so cool to be in a place where, at least in a ceremonial, public way, writers of poetry and fiction were admired and held up as representative of the nation. It seems to me that the US still has a very strong streak of a Puritan suspicion of art, pleasure.

I wonder if that's typical of any other country? It's easy to oversimplify complex historical processes, but, to me, this tendency in the US seems pretty traceable to the Protestant / Puritan hegemony in cultural matters. And the feeling that "we are unique"--in this case, uniquely repressed--could also be a flip side of the U.S. penchant for claiming "exceptionalism". [For a living example of said exceptionalism, see GWB's second (the horror!) inaugural address...]

To recap: I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on these matters--the degree to which 1) literature is taught on national divisions in other places and 2) whether there's a suspicion of literature, art as "frivolous" in other places. . . .and anything else that seems relevant...
 
 
HCE
23:50 / 24.01.05
A very brief note -- I have it from my grandfather (a professor of the subject) that in Iran, literature classes are in fact mostly about poetry, and that novels are considered very foreign, which is to say French (perhaps an 80-20 split, favoring poetry). This is quite the reverse of what seems to be the case in the US.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
07:19 / 25.01.05
Interestingly, in terms of what you were saying here -

When I was in Scotland many years ago, I was surprised, and delighted, by all the public monuments devoted to Robert Burns, Sir Walter Scott, and, to a lesser degree, Robert L. Stevenson

literature is taught along national lines to a very great extent in Scotland; not only are a high proportion of the books taught in high school Scottish, but even when students are asked to choose their own books to write about they are frequently encouraged to choose books by Scottish authors. I think that's partly a result of a desire in the Scottish education system for students to know about all aspects of Scottish culture lest it be superceeded by English culture, and this extends to favouring American, over English (in the sense of originating from England) literature. Over my last two years of school, I studied only one English author, and all the rest were Scottish or American. Part of this might have been my school's policy, rather than policy across Scotland, but it appears to have been the a similar experience to everyone else I know with a Scottish secondary education.

At the time I thought that it would mean Scottish students would be less interested in literature from (any) other cultures. Now, however, having studied at uni in both Scotland and England, I think that in general my Scottish friends were more interested, or at least more eager to talk about, the books they were reading. I don't know if that's because literature was taught very much as something shared -'this is important to all of us because it is from the same country as we are', or if (on a related note) it's because so much Scottish literature has similar concerns, locations and settings in history that it's relatively easy to feel confident in reading it. Events like the Highland Clearings tend to be referred to in works from fairly diverse periods, and so with basic knowledge of what went on it's easy to spot references and feel like you're getting 'good' at reading in an academic context.

Anyway, I think that's interesting in terms of this debate because it is as close as makes no practical difference the opposite of a broad basis for literature. The Scottish writers I was taught were exclusively white and male, if not exclusively straight, and were exclusively from a white, male point of view. Which, although not all of these things will be true for every Scottish author, is true of quite a large number of those on the syllabus, and it therefore largely ignores any (Scottish) experience which isn't rooted in a Scottish heritage.

Sorry all of this has been kind of personal experience -because the differences I'm talking about between my groups of friends could just have been a result of different circumstances at the time we were at university together. Anyway, alas, an answer to your first question is, 'Scotland'...
 
 
Pingle!Pop
12:35 / 25.01.05
I’m not sure how you perceive ‘racial diversity’ and its importance as opposed to religious, ethnic and, perhaps more relevant to a discussion about language, linguistic diversity which has been a great influence on the evolution of the modern English language. You certainly seem to gloss over the Norman conquest of Britain in 1066 which saw a massive and lasting influence of French language and culture on England and the English, the fact that the Britain is itself a combination of three different countries (and lets not include the thorny issue of Ireland just yet) as well as the various immigrants that came to Britain, particularly in the 19th century.

*Ahem*... I meant to add a "Please excuse any glaring omissions in my not-exactly-great knowledge of/commentary on British history" disclaimer to that. You are, of course, right; I completely forgot to include anything about the Normans and my knowledge of 19th century immigrants is virtually nil. Please feel free to educate me.

Still, while the influence of immigration and religious/ethnic etc. differences may have had a huge effect on the culture here, I can't say I'm aware of this being taught to the extent that seems to be the case in American Lit courses. A quick look at both of AQA and EdExcel's A-Level syllabuses don't turn up too much: Romanticism, Shakespeare (was he really so great/influential as to make his inclusion compulsory for every student studying English past the age of fourteen?), metaphysical poets, the 19th century novel, the realist novel... and so on.

And a look through a few university's syllabi shows options for huge numbers of things, but as far as the "core modules" are concerned, their focus is little different to that of A-Levels. Feel free to point out examples where this isn't the case. But as far as I can tell, an individual teacher or professor might highlight the influence of certain religious and ethnic cultures on the works they're teaching, but it doesn't seem to be reflected in the canon or syllabus.

I think that's partly a result of a desire in the Scottish education system for students to know about all aspects of Scottish culture lest it be superceeded by English culture, and this extends to favouring American, over English (in the sense of originating from England) literature.

Definitely a separate discussion, but that point certainly doesn't just stop at literature. Perhaps it's not too surprising historically, but while English nationalism seems to be happy to embrace Scotland as a kind of "honourary addition" to England, Scottish nationalism... er, doesn't return the favour, to say the least.
 
 
sleazenation
13:57 / 25.01.05
There is a lot to go into here, and I do plan to go into this at more depth later. However...

I think English nationalism is a bit of a red herring, or rather it is a rather complex idea that involves the concept of Britain and differing opinions of that concept. Its something that holds a different politically charge for all of its constituent contries (and indeed counties). This multi-faceted concept of Britain is further muddied by misuse of the terms England and Britain, something that the English are unfortunately not immune to...

Which is to say a citizen in England might well think of a citizen of Scotland as part of his nation. This could be because the English person considers them both to be British, because ze mistakenly thinks Scotland is part of England, because ze sees that Scotland is governed from England (although this is less true since 1999) or for a variety of other reasons.
 
 
sleazenation
14:59 / 29.01.05
PC Pingle – Next up I’d like to assure you that I wasn’t trying to have a go at you earlier, rather I felt that things such as the omission of the Norman invasion rather glaring.

For an insight into the massive difference between pre-Norman Old English and post-Norman Middle English, check out Beowulf and the Canterbury Tales (The Canterbury Tales are considered one of the easier Middle English texts for readers of modern English to understand).

In fact, this pageoffers a pretty good (and brief) general overview of the evolution of the English language – it will also provides a couple of answers as to why Shakespeare is such an important English writer…

On the subject of immigration… I fear it is all a bit more complicated than I intimated in earlier posts. By the early to mid 19th Century London had become the largest city in the world. However, it was still a very dirty dangerous place – the mortality rate was high and it was only the constant influx of immigrants from Europe and further afield that enabled the city’s population to keep growing. Despite this, many new words, perhaps more than entered the language through immigration and immigrants to the British Isles themselves entered the English language through the expanded boarders of Britain’s empire… an indication of some of these can be found here.

Alas - Since the curriculum has changed considerably for the year below mine I’m not sure how useful my anecdotal evidence will be to you…

Still, At secondary school we studied a variety of English authors including Shakespeare’s A Mid-Summer-Night’s Dream and MacBeth, Howl’s Moving Castle by Dianna Wynne Jones, The Iron Way by Gillian Cross, The Machine Gunners by Robert Westall and some other assorted odds and sods terrible book called Buddy that appears to have sunk without a trace.

In terms of American books, we studied Mrs Frisby and the Rats of NIMH by Robert C. O’Brian , Rasco and the Rats of NIMH by Jane Leslie Conly, The Crucible by Arthur Miller and The Wave by Morton Rhue…
 
  

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