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The Xmas Factor

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pointless and uncalled for

06:46 / 15.12.04

Christmas, it's the reason for the season, etc, ad infinitum and most definitely, for me, ad nauseum.

But my own hatred for the forced jollity, badly cooked "festive" food (oxymoronical at best), tinny christmas carols, shameless marketing and so on aside, is there any real justification for celebrating Christmas?

I can appreciate why Christians celebrate Christmas, as part of binary crux of the religion Christianity would be even more redundant without it. However, I cannot fathom why everyone else is getting in on the act, other than it's a hand bandwaggon upon which to ride.

I admit that I too follow the herd on this one, partially because of my family and partially because if everyone else is going to be engaging in some clicking of heels then I'd rather join them than wallow in self-inflicted pariahdom.

However, it seems to me that we're not doing ourselves any favours. Is all this celebration and carol singing and general heavy investment into a religous construct mitigated by any benefits? Personally I don't see it, but as I may be blinded by cynicism perhaps you can tell me.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be some kind of agreed seasonal celebrative model, but why does it have to be establismentarianistic perpetuation of a religion that we spend the other 11 months of the year decrying as outmoded, bigotted, oppressive and basically wrong? What is it about December that makes it just peachy to casually marginalise anyone who isn't a straight, white, god-fearing male?

wembley can change in 28 days

06:54 / 15.12.04

Personally, I gave up on the cynicism a while ago, but I have definite reasons for celebration: darkness!

It happens noticeably in most places that are somewhat northern, but in Helsinki the sun starts rising around 9:30 on christmas and it sets by 3:00 pm. This trend, all through the cold, windy winter makes for an awful lot of "can't get out of bed" and general malaise. Here christmas is a party that pretty much lasts all December, starting with office parties and continuing on. It's commercial, but you can avoid that. The food is fantastic. The glögi flows freely and people warm each other up in one way or another. Basically everybody knows that midwinter can be rough on the soul, so everyone goes all out and we all come through together, adding a few more hangovers to the wonderful happy family.

I mean, Christmas did happen to fall on the old "pagan" winter solstice festival time. In some countries it's never really lost its original purpose.

07:42 / 15.12.04

let's keep jesus out of christmas for fucking god's sake. the importance of yuletide is warmed and raucous intoxication, gift-giving and calorie-piling, and no hippy in a barn can change that. these are ways of fortifying the self for the forthcoming months of grey, drizzle and voluntary self-denial, and as such are vitally important to the continued survival of the species.

08:20 / 15.12.04

Also the one day of the year where most people get a day in which they really CAN do absolutely bugger all, rather than a day off to worry about what else they should be doing that would be more worthwhile.

pointless and uncalled for

08:29 / 15.12.04

Gumbitch

Keeping Jesus out of Christmas isn't really possible though is it. After all, without his name you would just be celebrating Mas. Why are we going around proclaiming Merry Christmas to all and sundry instead of Merry Yuletide. By reverting to the Christian name then are we not just perpetuating something we would otherwise oppose.

hypo cube

Is that only possible because of an alleged birth of a messiah? Couldn't that be done outside of the umbrella of Chistianity?

08:33 / 15.12.04

i think you should just, well, try keeping jesus out of your christmas. it's a piece of piss.

08:53 / 15.12.04

As far as I'm convcerned it's a good excuse for a party, and my willingness to gorge myself on food, drink all the booze and do no work has nothing to do with christianity.

09:02 / 15.12.04

Is that only possible because of an alleged birth of a messiah? Couldn't that be done outside of the umbrella of Chistianity?
Not easily. Given that every other public holiday that once meant something (specifically May Day, but also including the other December hols surrounding 25 December) are now even WORSE consumer frenzy days and abuses of workers' rights than the rest of the year, there seems to be something about the link with religion that stops the market getting its grubby fingers on that one last day. While that continues I'm happy to allow Jesus to hijack our last real holiday. I don't think the establishment would be so happy to let us keep it if it reverted to a pagan holiday.

09:07 / 15.12.04

I'm doing it for the kids.

09:24 / 15.12.04

"Won't someone please think of the children!!"
As Ariadne's thread suggests, it is also largely about keeping the big wean in all of us alive.

09:58 / 15.12.04

I can appreciate why Christians celebrate Christmas, as part of binary crux of the religion Christianity would be even more redundant without it

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha....................

10:15 / 15.12.04

As has been pointed out, the primary purpose of Christmas is to bring light to the darkest part of the year. I think this is why, consciously or not, people decorate their homes in gaudy colours and lights, and bring a living evergreen tree into their living space. It's a time to drink and see family, and give gifts to people you care about, and enjoy the last big piss ups of the year (see you on sunday in the plough). That, for me, is "the meaning of Christmas". I think it's always been about a celebration to brighten up the dark and the cold of late December, and is certainly celebrated that way in the north east of england, where the Jesus content is marginal at best. I enjoy it. So I celebrate it. How "commercialised" your experience of the season might be is your choice. Coca Cola Santa isn't putting a gun to your head.

As far as Jesus is concerned, and the vague glossing over of a pagan festival with a thin coat of Christianity, I can go with that as well. I'm a syncretist. The myth of the birth of Christ actually hangs quite well with the pagan purpose of the festival. The birth of Jesus represents the light of the new year that is being born, he represents hope in the darkness, the solar child, warmth and love, all the good qualities of mankind, which I think are quite a good thing to dwell on and think about during the winter months. I don't have a problem with it. By ritually celebrating the birth of Christ, with feasting, drinking and so on, we're celebrating the new year born out of the ashes of the old.

Harrison Ford, in a battle suit, wheels for feet, knives and guns

10:15 / 15.12.04

This is just silly!

Everybody knows that Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus, it's all about being a good boy/girl/boygirl/thing for Santa Claus. It's a well documented fact.
I mean, he even predates the birth of Christ. You remember that bit in the bible when Jesus has been shouting at Mary for hours about how he wants a pony for his birthday, she says no & he tells her if he doesn't get a pony then she'll fuckin' fry in the fire's of hell got he's the fuckin' son of God. He got a pony!

BUT!!

That's all he got, because Santa doesn't deliver to naughty boys. WHOEVER THEY ARE.

So keep that in mind when you're slagging of Christmas, because you might wake up with nothing.

You have been warned

14:53 / 15.12.04

Everyone knows it's really just celebrating all the December babies. Like me. (And betty woo.)

Goodness Gracious Meme

15:53 / 15.12.04

This season it's mainly going to be about catching up with friends, as we all seem to be manically busy instead of doleys with masses of time to spend together. So, I'm really looking forward to this... it's more the 'christmas holidays' feeling, i guess!

There's also the 'bringing light(in all sorts of ways,) to the darkest time of the year' and I can definitely get behind that. Last year I left the UK just after Christmas for a few weeks in India, and the upswing from going from living in the dark to living in the sun was *astonshing*.

So this year, I'm aiming for as much light and fire and energy as possible.

00:54 / 18.12.04

I had to post this, it's from Deviant Art :

Santa's dark side!

10:17 / 21.12.04

Lantern really sums it up for me (and I think we should all listen to Harrison's cautionary tale), but I should also add that, IMO, people's attitude to Christmas tends to be formed by their experience of the event.

I enjoy Christmas because it gives me time to focus on friends, family and enjoying myself. Of course, I'm a lucky bastard in that I live a reasonably good life at the mo'.
If you don't like your family, or if you don't have many friends, or you haven't got any money, or you're lonely, or depressed, or sick, or any of the above, I can see why Christmas wouldn't be for you.

Otherwise, try to ignore the bits you don't like, try to create your own Christmas, and you might just have fun.

pointless and uncalled for

10:49 / 21.12.04

I have done. I've got a nice little model for this years time off of work which I think is going to keep me quite happy.

I just fail to understand why people continue with the Christian element of it. People seem to be of the notion that tradition mitigates the perpetuation of hypocrisy, oppression and bigotry. Yet much of what posters have said they do or focus on has any tie in with the Christian side of things and fails, IMHO, to justify the rentention of it rather than adoption an irreligious construct.

On the subject of the establishment. They aren't going to do anything if people chose to celebrate a parallel festive season without being religious about it. And as for the kid in you, does it really nead God or would you be just as happy with the prezzies, overindulgence and bright lights on their own?

11:02 / 21.12.04

Well, obviously God isn't just going to suddenly disappear from the equation, but, personally, I do alright without him.

The thing is, I'm not extactly sure what you're proposing. Christianity is deeply bound up in Crimbo construction.

pointless and uncalled for

11:24 / 21.12.04

Indeeed it is, which is why I question celebrating Christmas. Why aren't non-christians and anti-christians celebrating alternative events instead. It's not difficult and there are no shortage of them at this time of year. Solstice, Yule, Hogmany etc.

It genuinely baffles me as to how some people can spend 11 months of the year seriously, and even vehemently, objecting to the involvement of the Christian church in the governing of our day to day lives and then as soon as December parks itself on our doorstep make an even greater effort to buy into Christian symbolism. I guess at least God will forgive them for being hypocrites.

However, it looks as if I'm wrong to question other people's actions in the run up to the anniversary of the birth of the messiah. I'll must try and be more circumspect in the future.

11:36 / 21.12.04

Well, I for one don't go on and on about the evil incursions of Christianity, but, I agree, the hypocrasies of the season can be a little grating.

Whilst Christmas is bound up with Christian tradition, I think most of us have a fairly good handle on the notion of a secular Christmas. That being the case, I can understand why people (me) talk about "celebrating Christmas" rather than celebrating The Solstice, or Hogmany or whatever. Reason being, it's convenient: I don't have to invest in another festive construction and people will know what I'm talking about.

11:38 / 21.12.04

However, it looks as if I'm wrong to question other people's actions in the run up to the anniversary of the birth of the messiah.

Not necessarily wrong as such. Just a poisonous killjoy, is all.

Aren't there some things that are more important than being right?

12:00 / 21.12.04

Indeeed it is, which is why I question celebrating Christmas. Why aren't non-christians and anti-christians celebrating alternative events instead. It's not difficult and there are no shortage of them at this time of year. Solstice, Yule, Hogmany etc.

Well, in part, I just don't feel a pressing need to undermine the christian element in the holiday. I'm indifferent to it, seeing no real harm that derives explicitly from the christianity except the meta-harm one might argue that comes from religion, but that is a little too general to motivate me to do anything about a specific holiday. Also, as an atheist, I'm not sure your proposed alternatives are any better (I realise that atheists probably weren't intended to be part of your anti/non-christian alliance, but I think that highlights the narrow focus you've got there).

Largely, I celebrate christmas in the spirit of it being a good holiday to have at that time of year. Holidays are good things, and just as I don't wonder if I am pandering to the forces of capitalism when I sleep in on a Bank Holiday, I also am pretty untroubled by the religious trappings of other holidays. To be honest, I think that my point of view is fairly widespread, and serves to reinforce the secular aspect.

Also, I'm really not sure about christmas marginalising "straight, white, god-fearing male(s)". I really not sure where that comes from, unless you want to say that christianity is responsible for this - which is a fairly difficult to justify.

pointless and uncalled for

12:01 / 21.12.04

I'm not trying to kill the joy, I'm just looking to have a bit of a look at a part of the construct of Christmas.

And I'm the last person you want to accuse of being right around here.

12:05 / 21.12.04

Well, in part, I just don't feel a pressing need to undermine the christian element in the holiday. I'm indifferent to it

So you're indifferent to HYPOCRISY, then?

12:13 / 21.12.04

I'm afraid I don't quite see the hyprocrisy as being that self evident (or probably more precisely, exceptional). Care to unpack it for me?

pointless and uncalled for

12:13 / 21.12.04

I realise that atheists probably weren't intended to be part of your anti/non-christian alliance

Specifically intended to be a part of it.

Also, I'm really not sure about christmas marginalising "straight, white, god-fearing male(s)".

More them doing the marginalising. Christmas isn't doing any marginalising, as an abstract it can't really do that. But it is in essence a tool for maginalisation, albeit a primarily passive act, by it's very existence as a celebration defined by Christianity and part of the Christian-centric society that is propogated as a norm.

It is used in arguments against affording proper celebratory periods to key dates in other religious calenders and is part of a psychology that habitually descriminates on the grounds of sexuality and gender. Looks smells and tastes like marginalisation to me.

12:26 / 21.12.04

Er, L'Anima, *Joke*.

12:29 / 21.12.04

Specifically intended to be a part of it.

Yet it looks like what you want to do is replace one religion by another, or possibly several. Not sure why you think that would appeal to atheists.

As for the marginalisation of other religions, I think you are being a bit quick off the mark for me. Countries have different traditions, different languages and culture and mores and so on. But is it necessarily exclusionary to have a history which is expressed? It depends, I think. I can certainly see situations in which it might be so, where the interests of a large minority of the population were ignored. But there is also value in national institutions and traditions. Plus, I think that laying sex and gender discrimination at the feet of christmas, as opposed to society at large, is hopelessly muddled.

More than that, you are trying to present your multicultural choice as if it doesn't also involve value judgements. But it does, and while your vision may sound good to you, a public holiday reflecting the traditions and majority religion of the populace may seem good to others. As an atheist who isn't really included in either point of view, I find it hard to tell the difference, to a large extent, and am happy enough to take the holiday and celebrate.

12:30 / 21.12.04

Bossboy. Ah. Feeling slow today.

12:45 / 21.12.04

Ho ho ho.

My father owns a pub so we *have* to celebrate Christmas.

12:47 / 21.12.04

Although, I think there's an argument that hypocrisy gets a little more ostentatious over the Christmas period.

pointless and uncalled for

13:11 / 21.12.04

My father owns a pub so we *have* to celebrate Christmas.

Now there's something I missed from the New Testament. Is that one of the commandments from the other side of the tablets?

Brigade du jour

13:19 / 21.12.04

Loads of good older films on the telly that don't seem to get shown at other times of year.

Nice to see my folks and eat a meal together and drink lots of wine and play silly games and stuff.

That's about it.

16:32 / 21.12.04

I just fail to understand why people continue with the Christian element of it. People seem to be of the notion that tradition mitigates the perpetuation of hypocrisy, oppression and bigotry.

I don't understand. What is "the Christian element" of Christmas as non-Christians practice it? The name? The date? I don't think many non-Christians are setting up a creche and baking a birthday cake for Jesus. Aside from that, most of the traditions of Christmas - Christmas tree, lights, gifts - are nonreligious, pagan, or appropriated from pagan or other religions. The one legitimate quarrel you may have is with hymns being sung on the radio and so on, which I'd agree is an unwelcome imposition of religion on what is really not an especially religious holiday. It's funny, most Christians complain that Christmas is too secular - guess you can't please anyone with this awful, loathsome holiday.

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