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"Dig a hole and dump them in it"

 
  

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LykeX
03:13 / 15.12.04
Banning the use of public funds for books promoting homosexuality means that not just won't the books be in the school library, they won't be in the public library either and they will probably be banned as teaching material.

That means a childhood completely free from any positive, or even just objective, representation of homosexuality. The only thing available will be the official KKK version.

Imagine this happening in Europe. Can't, can you.
 
 
wicker woman
07:51 / 15.12.04
what we need is strategic retreat from the red states to consolidate our power in the blue states, adopt a states' rights approach, and start building from the ground up, starting with organized campaigns to purge conservatives from local government.

we need to know when and where we are beat, and stop wasting resources on battles we can't win. we have to realize that, outside of a few strongholds, we are facing a generation of political guerilla warfare behind enemy lines. the bastards have already won, and the sooner we recognize that and act accordingly, the sooner we can start building up our base to weather the storm until we can take advantage when they overreach.


As inclined as I am to agree with you, I have to play devil's advocate for a moment and wonder if that's actually a good idea. I was listening to NPR the other day when a debate was taking place on this very topic. A liberal from dear ol' Alabama called in and expressed a fair amount of dismay at the idea of people up and fleeing to "blue" states.

I'm wondering then how widespread that idea is, and if trying to consolidate power in what few states we've actually got might not cause more divisiveness than it's worth. I mean, watching the county-by-county breakdowns on election night, I saw a distressing amount of red even in blue states, so couldn't this come down to holding on to what we have rather than 'retreating', so to speak?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:31 / 15.12.04
LykeX Imagine this happening in Europe. Can't, can you.

Erm, you've read the entire thread haven't you?
 
 
LykeX
10:43 / 15.12.04
Damn, and it sounded really good too

Now you've killed my only bit of enthusiasm. I was clinging to the idea that at least Europe wasn't that fucked up, and then you burst my little bubble.
But, imagine that happening in today's Europe, then. That I bet you can't.
And if you can I'm going to kill someone.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
14:02 / 15.12.04
I just hoped this country would've have grown out of this foolishness by the twenty-first century.

It's Alabama, for pete's sake. Alabama. Ever been there?
 
 
ChrisB
20:54 / 15.12.04
Allen said he filed the bill to protect children from the "homosexual agenda."

"Our culture, how we know it today, is under attack from every angle," Allen said in a press conference Tuesday.

We have to "protect Alabamians".


I had read somewhere that the chance of this legislation passing when Alabama's legislature reconvene in February was slim to none... and that Slim will be out of town. Even Fox News was reportedly bashing Allen.

Yes, it is completely absurd, laughable, and barely worthy of comment.

Nevertheless, I would be interested in knowing precisely which element of Alabama culture it is that Mr. Allen wishes to protect?

No disrespect to enlightened and understanding Alabamans, but Alabama ranks 44th nationwide in education, has a high school drop-out rate of over 40%, has over 20% of it's children living in poverty, is consistently placed in the top 10 states with the highest divorce rate, and ranks 43rd in the overall public health of it's citizenry.*

It appears that Alabaman culture as a whole has not benefitted at all from the protective shield of any state legislation (proposed or enacted) that criminalizes homosexuality, bars gay couples from adopting children, and requires sex education programs in schools to emphasize "in a factual manner" that "homosexuality is not a lifestyle acceptable to the general public" and that "homosexual conduct is a criminal offense under the laws of the state."**

Hmm.

Whatever it is down there that passes for culture surely doesn't need protection and preservation. Frankly, it needs euthanization.

And by "down there" I do mean down at the end of my big, honking, elite, liberal nose.

Seriously, though. What a sad little man he must be. I can't imagine what it must be like for him to live with so much fear, self-hatred, lack of confidence, and paranoid delusion.

Poor soul. Such suffering.

I wish there was something I could do to help put him out of his misery.

Sources:

* United Health Foundation
* Some various state rankings

** Alabama legislative documents regarding homosexuality
 
 
Pingle!Pop
09:11 / 16.12.04
I also stop short of suggesting that every work of art currently taught in our universities is there for the sole purpose of teaching students work on its own intrinsic merits. PC is still with us.

The fact, as you've pointed out, that evaluation of the quality of works of fiction can only be subjective aside, should books be taught "for the sole purpose of teaching students work on its own intrinsic merits" anyway? Is the point of teaching literature in America to ensure that students will learn about only the veryverybest literature?

Surely part of the aim behind such courses should be to educate about a variety of lifestyles in cultures? Even if the short story from which you've quoted above could be objectively judged as being of lower quality than the white American or British options available, could it not be of more value for students to learn about the unique set of perspectives and values portrayed in that short story than to read one more story from the same old cultural background?

Yes, PC is still with us, and it's not going to go away, no matter how much the right attempts to portray it as an effort by those loonie liberals to curtail their freedom to say whatever they like and force all the children to be gay, female and black. It's still with us because its purpose is, amongst other things, to ensure that people of whatever race, sexuality, gender etc. are given fair representation, and this goal is helped by educating people about all kinds of different cultures and lifestyles.
 
 
betty woo
20:18 / 16.12.04
I am beginning to suspect that Alabama is a testing ground for the Christian Right, wherein they float ridiculous ideas and see how much they can get away with (as proof, I present not only this thread's focus, but also Presiding Circuit Court Judge Ashley McKathan and his newly-made robes with the Ten Commandments sewn right on 'em.

Perhaps more on-topic, the Bush Administration has recently (Sept 2004) enacted regulations through the Office of Foreign Assets Control that bar U.S. publishers from printing works by authors based in sanctioned nations unless they first obtain a license:

http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/7652.html

Well, you don't have to bury them if you can prevent them from being published in the first place, right?
 
 
eddie thirteen
23:33 / 16.12.04
Increasingly I'm feeling that the canon issue both doesn't belong in this thread and is rightly overshadowed by the actual subject of the thread, but to reply as best I can to Disco/Angelique -- no.

No, the point of an American literature class is not to teach students about cultural diversity; the point of a cultural diversity class is to teach students about cultural diversity. I'm not saying that teaching cultural diversity is bad or unnecessary -- I would argue that it's crucial. But it's not what a broad American lit class is there for. If you want to teach Cultural Diversity in American Lit, go for it...no problems from this quarter. But let's not confuse it with an overall survey of American literature. Such a course gives an instructor twelve weeks or so to teach stories and poems from the Puritans on, and frankly, that's not much time. Mediocrity included in the name of cultural diversity is still just mediocrity, and why waste valuable class hours on it?

The second (more relevant) point, to my mind, is that the quoted story is not merely taking up space that could be occupied by worthier white writers, but by worthier writers of color. But because we "need" this particular token more than we "need," say, another story by an American writer of black or Asian heritage -- or even a less political story by a different Native American writer -- a better story is squeezed out on the basis of political conviction.

What I'm saying is that, if a story is taken strictly on its own merits, there WILL BE cultural diversity -- because good writers don't all just happen to be of European descent. We know better than that. Setting out to create cultural diversity has academics making decisions that don't necessarily have much to do with quality, when -- and this is the thing -- if they were to judge work simply on the basis of quality, we'd almost certainly still have work by writers from a wide variety of racial/cultural backgrounds. They just might not be all the same writers we have now.
 
 
diz
03:24 / 17.12.04
Such a course gives an instructor twelve weeks or so to teach stories and poems from the Puritans on, and frankly, that's not much time. Mediocrity included in the name of cultural diversity is still just mediocrity, and why waste valuable class hours on it?

and who decides what's "mediocre" and what's not? you?

and do you seriously think issues of race and class and culture don't come tied up in that? there's no objective way to determine what's "good" and what's "mediocre," since those judgements are inherently subjective, and evaluations of the "quality" of a given work are generally deeply related to the culture of the artist. in an academic environment dominated by white people, someone who writes in a style which appeals to educated white people is going to be understood to be producing "quality" work more often than someone whose style appeals to uneducated white people or educated Latinos.

there's really no such thing as "quality" in the broad, objective sense, and a basic American literature class should ideally try to expose students to as wide a sampling of American writing as possible, to familiarize them with a variety of genres, styles, races, genders, geographical areas, and time periods.
 
 
ChrisB
04:36 / 17.12.04
Perhaps more on-topic, the Bush Administration has recently (Sept 2004) enacted regulations through the Office of Foreign Assets Control that bar U.S. publishers from printing works by authors based in sanctioned nations unless they first obtain a license

This did indeed cause quite a stir, and many publishing organizations (justifiably so) released an unholy army of salivating lawyers on OFAC when this went down back in September.

So fearing that they would be briefed and motioned to death, OFAC surrendered and revised the code with major clarifications just a few days ago.

Essentially publishers do not need a special license unless the works sought to be published are the direct works of governments, government officials, or people acting on behalf of the governments of the three embargoed countries (Iran, Sudan, and of course big bad Cuba).

Anyone interested can read the press release, revisions and code here.

Apologies for the rot. I just felt compelled to give an update on that particular issue.
 
 
eddie thirteen
04:41 / 17.12.04
Oh, I dunno...because when we start moving down this track (white people are incapable of recognizing good work from outside "white" culture), what we're doing in essence is choosing to believe that the evidence of our own mental processes is in some way deficient, and so we *can't* make a value judgment...a notion which I feel quite comfortable calling bullshit. First of all, we have to accept that there's this enormous gulf between "white" and "black" (or "Asian," "Native American," "Latino," etc.) culture in America -- despite the reality that black and white Americans do all live in the same culture, even if some of us would like to believe otherwise -- and second of all we have to accept that you can narrowly define "black" and "white" culture in the first place.

Most importantly, though, by determining that (presumably) white academics are incapable of judging the merits of a minority writer, we presume that a minority writer's work must by necessity be so different from that of a white writer that it's as if the minority is from a different planet altogether; it falls upon the academic merely to catalog it, not to interpret it, as this is clearly beyond his ken. It's hard for me to decide who's insulted more by this theory -- the academic who, because of his/her ethnicity, is incapable of "getting" literature when it's written by a person of a different race; or the minority writer who, because of his/her ethnicity, is incapable of producing work that can communicate to people outside his/her culture.

As for "who decides" -- well, the truth is, SOMEONE has to decide, don't they? Every course needs a syllabus. It sounds as if the notion rankles, but I don't see any other way to teach a class -- someone has to choose this book over that one. It sounds like what we disagree on is the criteria for selection. Yours has more to do with who the writers are and where they come from than with what they've written and how well they've done it, and I find that disturbing. If we propose that there is no way to tell good work from bad work, then we may as well not teach literature courses at all.

Further, we suggest a level of subjectivity in art observation of any kind that I just don't believe in. What you and I get from reading a work of fiction will, by necessity, differ; but for you and I each to have an *utterly* different experience implies one (or, I guess, both) of us is suffering a severe derangement of the senses. So -- subjectivity, yes; total subjectivity, though, I think is about as plausible as total objectivity.

Um....apologies for the threadrot...
 
 
eddie thirteen
05:05 / 17.12.04
Wait -- there is one other aspect of this left untouched, which is the educational bias you hint at, Diz. But I'm not sure how to figure that in, exactly...certainly, there are academics who priggishly blow off any kind of "popular" fiction as less than worthy, and I'm not saying they're wrong; a lot of pop fiction is crap. At the same time, what is considered contemporary "literary" writing has devolved into a genre unto itself -- a fact a lot of academics choose not to realize. But who reads what kind of fiction I'm not so sure has a lot to do with educational level -- elitists would love to believe that your average airport novel (Michael Crichton, for instance) is read only by the great unwashed, but it's just not so; the audience for genre fiction (from my experience working at chain bookstores) is comprised of people from a wide range of backgrounds, united only by their desire to sit down from a hard day of work and turn off their brains for an hour or two. You don't have to be a great writer for that, but you do have to be a pretty good storyteller; when it comes to contemporary fiction, at least, academics have a tendency to disparage the latter, which is why contemporary literary fiction doesn't have much of an audience. But at any rate, when it comes to the general reading public, I don't think education has too much to do with reading tastes.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
09:50 / 17.12.04
To stop this thread from being rotted further, I've started a new thread here on the purpose to teaching American Literature...
 
  

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