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"Dig a hole and dump them in it"

 
  

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Ganesh
17:15 / 09.12.04
In today's Guardian, Gary Taylor interviews one Gerald Allen.

Bush is interested in Allen's opinions because Allen is an elected Republican representative in the Alabama state legislature. He is Bush's base. Last week, Bush's base introduced a bill that would ban the use of state funds to purchase any books or other materials that "promote homosexuality". Allen does not want taxpayers' money to support "positive depictions of homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle". That's why Tennessee Williams and Alice Walker have got to go.

It's the good ol' HomoLiberal Agenda "re-engineering society's fabric" again...

Cutting off funds to theatre departments that put on A Chorus Line or Cat on a Hot Tin Roof may look like censorship, and smell like censorship, but "it's not censorship", Allen hastens to explain. "For instance, there's a reason for stop lights. You're driving a vehicle, you see that stop light, and I hope you stop." Who can argue with something as reasonable as stop lights? Of course, if you're gay, this particular traffic light never changes to green.

Luckily, "literature like Shakespeare and Hammet [sic] could be left alone" - assuming the gayer bits can be 'toned down'. Grrreat.

I'm wondering just how far this 'nationwide Clause 28' line can be taken - both in terms of censorship and ostracism of gay people. Is the US headed for a sort of homosexual McCarthyism?
 
 
LykeX
18:29 / 09.12.04
It's very annoying. This is my third attempt at composing a reply, but every time it ends up sounding like the ravings of a mental patient with paranoid delusions.

Obviously this is an attempt at engineering a new generation of complete homophobics. They know that at the moment there are too many sane people around who would oppose any attempt at directly attacking homosexuals, so instead they're trying to eliminate opposing voices, so the next generation will be raised in a tolerance-free society.
Then, 20-30 years down the line, they can push almost anything through, since the new generation has been so thoroughly brainwashed into seeing all homosexuals as satanic dieaseridden childmolesting crackheads.

Someone tell me I'm being ridiculous.
 
 
diz
19:12 / 09.12.04
Someone tell me I'm being ridiculous.

of course you're being ridiculous. all homosexuals are satanic dieaseridden childmolesting crackheads. we have "scientists" and "experts" who will tell you so. duh.

in all seriousness, no, you're not being ridiculous. they understand that control over education is key to changing the culture, and they're working at reinforcing doctrinal purity in the schools with a vigor that would make Chairman Mao proud. maybe every school will get its own advisor from the Party to screen for counterrevolutiona- err, i meant anti-American and anti-Christian* content.

* sorry, needed to update my terminology to fill in the blank properly. totalitarianism is just like the Mad Libs sometimes.
 
 
Ganesh
19:28 / 09.12.04
Well, I've been trying to avoid too much speculation as to what "they" eventually want to achieve, for fear of sounding like a weird mirror-parody of the 'they recruit children; that's how they reproduce' line of argument - but it does concern me that homosexuality and homosexuals are being progressively marginalised as the unacceptable Other.

Given the much-touted 'moral issues' preoccupation (and the relatively narrow remit of that preoccupation), I don't see that there'll be much effective opposition to this. What's the next step?
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
19:52 / 09.12.04
I've been trying to avoid too much speculation as to what "they" eventually want to achieve...

After growing up in a fundamentalist Christian home, Ganesh, and attending several cult-like churches during my childhood, I can tell you exactly what they want. They want a theocracy, pure and simple. They want to have a few "righteous" men who govern everybody. They want to go back to a version of Old Testament Jewish Law.

It amazes the holy hell out of me that anybody listens to these people, but they managed to win the last election. I was pretty laid back about this last election, I figured that Bush would lose, but no more. These people want to take me back to the way I was raised, and I will fight them to the death before I go back there.
 
 
w1rebaby
20:03 / 09.12.04
What can one say about this sort of thing? There's not really any debate, is there? If you hold the sort of basic religious principles that mean you believe homosexuality is bad then, well, it's hard to argue with that because they're not rationally derived. If you're one of the people who believe that there are non-religious reasons why homosexuality is harmful and mentioning its existence to kids might turn them gay, then you can be bombarded with various pieces of logic and evidence, but it's unlikely that you're hanging around Barbelith anyway.

It's one of those stories that needs to be quoted in order to point out that yes, this is what these people are doing, but I find myself unable to say much more... the administration is prepared to pander to the irrational, harmful opinions of a particular group and fuck everyone over because of it, and that's a bad thing.

What really disturbs me is that so much of this stuff is aimed at children. Anti-evolution stickers on biology textbooks and the general anti-science agenda, abstinence education, now this. It's aimed at placating the parents right now but it's a time bomb - the full effect will only be seen years down the line.
 
 
grant
20:16 / 09.12.04
Hmm. I doubt they'd be able to get around Walt Whitman or Oscar Wilde in U of Alabama lit classes, would they?
I wonder if those textbooks count as state expenditures or not, since student buy them themselves.

I also wonder if there will be a backlash among, like, local rep theater companies, who I'm pretty sure don't get much in the way of state grant money.

I'm also wondering how closely this Alabama state official can be linked to Bush's national policy. I mean, obviously, they're both points along the same end of the political spectrum, but I'm not sure what the one guy does is going to have a direct effect on what the other one does.

It's not a great sign of the times, but (I hate to say this) very few news items out of Alabama are.
 
 
Ganesh
20:32 / 09.12.04
I guess it's the five meetings with Bush that worries me. It suggests he and Allen have progressed beyond heavy petting...
 
 
Liger Null
22:54 / 09.12.04
Here's another article on the subject.

If it's any consolation, I honestly don't think Allen's legislation will pass. But the fact that a politician can come up with such an idea and still be taken seriously is a step in the wrong direction for this country.

The problem with Leftists is that we've been gerrymandering ourselves, moving to places where we'll be accepted, running scared from Right-Wing Bigotry. This, I believe, is among the factors that allowed the Chimp to steal two consecutive elections.

I think it's time for gay and gay-friendly Americans to relocate to these "Red" states and vote. Those already here need to stand our ground and not let the bastards win.

Which is why I've decided to stay in the American South and make my voice heard, no matter what kind of stupid regulations these morons try to impose.
 
 
Ganesh
23:03 / 09.12.04
Also, I'm beginning to wonder why I never get any of these societal-fabric-ripping memos from the Homosexual Agenda. I suspect I've been excluded from their mailing list for claiming to be bi in my early twenties.
 
 
w1rebaby
23:06 / 09.12.04
You must have said something that Elton John didn't like.
 
 
Ganesh
23:07 / 09.12.04
Mmmm. Possibly the 'soft Furnishings' joke.
 
 
eddie thirteen
21:18 / 10.12.04
Any time people start talking about banning books, I get nervous -- but. The issues of cutting off funding aside, this sounds like it has less to do with actually making material completely inaccessible than it does deciding what should and should not be canon. And, more importantly, WHY something should or should not be canon. Speaking as someone who recently completed a Bachelor's in English, I can say with few reservations that there are certain works found in the canon that seem to have been included more for the sake of being culturally representative than on the basis of intrinsic literary merit -- which is, of course, subjective.
I will definitely NOT argue that "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof," for instance, is read simply because there are educators who feel a "homosexual agenda" should be put forth; but at the same time, I doubt its subject matter hurts it in the minds of some liberal educators. And I have encountered some works that seem to have been included only because the authors were representative of one minority or another; well-intentioned, yes, but not especially useful to students, and more than a little patronizing to the minority represented by a sub-par writer. ("Well, it was the best he could do.....") Put another way, I do think that politics has an impact on which modern works are deemed worthy of canon status, but I have no idea how to eliminate such bias, and don't think what amounts to reverse-reverse discrimination is likely to help matters any. I definitely don't think deciding that, say, Patriot Games or The Hunt for Red October is worthy of canonization would do anything but lower the bar for what is considered worthwhile art; I'm at a loss for examples of more sophisticated work that would promote a cultural agenda in agreement with the Bush administration. So I guess that's the real question -- take this stuff out of the canon and replace it with what?
 
 
Nobody's girl
13:31 / 12.12.04
I heard the wording to this and immediately thought of Clause 28 too. Clause 28 was the excuse a lot of teachers used to hide behind at my school when my ex-girlfriend was suffering homophobic abuse at school. Imagine the latitude teachers in Alabama will take with similar legislation...

I'd hate to live in America right now. GBLTQ America I send you love and if it all gets too much you can come over and crash on my couch.
 
 
Nobody's girl
13:36 / 12.12.04
Relevant Dykes To Watch Out For Cartoon
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:55 / 12.12.04
(Off-topic: woah, Alison Bechdel put Jack Fear in a comic!)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:58 / 12.12.04
On topic: what are you really saying, eddie? That the pinko college professors have brought this on themselves? I'm confused. Please clarify. Which side are you on? This is the only question that matters anymore.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:04 / 13.12.04
Well, I've been trying to avoid too much speculation as to what "they" eventually want to achieve, for fear of sounding like a weird mirror-parody of the 'they recruit children; that's how they reproduce' line of argument

Well, it wouldn't be exactly the same argument, would it? One side thinks the other is trying to affect the next generation's lives. BOTH sides KNOW that one side DOES, legally and officially, have the power to affect the next generations's lives. Both sides are free to speculate on the other's motives- I'd argue that one has more reason to feel victimised.

Sorry, that's horribly inarticulate. I'll correct it in the morning if it made no sense.
 
 
SMS
00:53 / 13.12.04
On November 2, Idaho and North Carolina voters elected their first openly gay legislators, and an openly gay Hispanic woman, Lupe Valdez, was elected county sheriff in Dallas. These were states that passed the ban on gay marriage.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:00 / 13.12.04
It is kinda whacky, in some ways... I think a big question is how the actual referendum question was worded. Another is what that actually means. Does it mean, for example, that a reasonable number of the people who voted "no" did so not because they object to gay men and lesbians per se, but because they want specifically to ring-fence marriage as an institution, but are not generally in favour of discrimination - which dovetails back into the Clause 28 question. As I understand it, books tend to be taken off reading lists because of agitation from reasonably small numbers of parents - the point being that it is easier to remove a book that is being vocally protested by a small group than to retain it.

What's the answer? Search me. I would, however, certainly note that compromise doesn't really work - there *is* no acceptable intermediate solution. Note also that Allen is portraying "American family values" as endangered on the basis of no evidence whatsoever. If the Devil's greatest triumph was convincing man he did not exist, the greatest triumph of the politically dominant, massively wealthy, influential and well-organised American right wing was convicing itself that it was some sort of heroic, oppressed group fighting an uphill battle for what is in absolute terms right.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:22 / 13.12.04
OK, this is all built on assumptions, but compared to a millenia ago the major Islamic countries seem to be a lot less inteelectually active now than then. Of course, I don't know that, there are outside pressures on the countries and our news media is still biased away from helping any good news getting out, but these guys invented '0', beat some of the discoveries and developments of the Western Enlightenment by centuries and now nothing. Is this due to the rise of a certain kind of religious theocracy?

I wish I'd saved it, but there was a guy on a Radio 4 program about the Christian Right and homosexuality who said that they were about to openly campaign against gay people having ANY right to adopt children, or keep children they were parents of, becausehomosexuals abuse kids. They weren't really going to bother 'proving' this, they weren't really going to bother 'arguing' it, they were just going to say it, and keep saying it until they got the legislative changes they wanted.

If the US does take the decision to vet all art for 'queerness', then there's very little left, as the article shows an argument can be made against Shakespeare. It could quite easily lock itself up and slip into it's own dark age. The danger being that, unlike Islamic states at the moment, they have nuclear weapons to threaten the 'unclean world' with.
 
 
alas
12:00 / 13.12.04
Ummm....I'm not sure what clause 28 is? Help a poor culturally-isolated American who can't be bothered to google it . . . It is the Season of Giving, you know...

But, onto the canon question, raised by eddie 13. Let me move to some specific territory that I know pretty well. American 19th century literature. Quick: name three women novelists of this period from the United States. Give up?

Why? Most educated Americans can name many (well, a few) white male fiction writers from this time: Melville, Hawthorne, Twain, James... but are lucky if they can come up with one woman--usually Harriet Beecher Stowe. [And there are a bunch of British women writers from the time--Austen, the Brontes, Eliot, etc.] So lots of literary scholar types have asked: is this disparity because there really was nothing of worth written by any American women, or is it because of gender / racial discrimination or what?

What I have found, with other scholars, is that the fiction written by white and non-white American women during this period--and there was a lot of it, some bestsellers, some well-received, some critically acclaimed at the time--was that it was often just "doing" a really different kind of "cultural work" and was written with different goals and values and purposes than the stuff written by white males. And the same goes for African American art: in many ways, if you don't understand the cultural milieu from which a work of art comes, you're not going to understand how it's intervening in the culture and the ways in which it is commenting on that culture. It's like not understanding the language in which a poem is written and trying to judge its quality.

So most of us in the academy are simply asking different questions, and we have sort of thrown out a "one size fits all" universal scale for the value of all art. This is just the tip of the iceberg on this very big and complicated and long-discussed question (several of us could probably provide you with a long bibliography on the 'canon wars' if you are really interested in it)...

Living in a red state, with a spouse who teaches in a high school, I can tell you that these kinds of pressures are real and they are scary. He regularly has to defend teaching Toni Morrison's work, and she won a Nobel Prize a few years ago. (And,while Morrison is often severely critiqued within the black community for a variety of reasons, let me just give you fair warning that if anyone asserts blandly that she won it "because she's black" I'll just scream. And I'll be perhaps the first person to ever flame another with nothing but a list of scholarly references...) And the critics have exclusively come from strictly religious backgrounds, in my partner's experience. And it's like being pecked by ducks: eventually, you may think: why bother? I'll just teach "the classics." So then they go after the gay references in Whitman and the bawdy humor in Romeo and Juliet and the homoerotic lust of Emily Dickinson, and they just want you to delete a few lines.... And then . . .
 
 
diz
12:11 / 13.12.04
I think it's time for gay and gay-friendly Americans to relocate to these "Red" states and vote. Those already here need to stand our ground and not let the bastards win.

i think that's hopeless to the point of being totally insane in political terms. the Republicans are winning because they have consolidated areas of absolute control, and wield the political power of those places in total unison like a club.

what we need is strategic retreat from the red states to consolidate our power in the blue states, adopt a states' rights approach, and start building from the ground up, starting with organized campaigns to purge conservatives from local government.

we need to know when and where we are beat, and stop wasting resources on battles we can't win. we have to realize that, outside of a few strongholds, we are facing a generation of political guerilla warfare behind enemy lines. the bastards have already won, and the sooner we recognize that and act accordingly, the sooner we can start building up our base to weather the storm until we can take advantage when they overreach.

Does it mean, for example, that a reasonable number of the people who voted "no" did so not because they object to gay men and lesbians per se, but because they want specifically to ring-fence marriage as an institution, but are not generally in favour of discrimination - which dovetails back into the Clause 28 question.

well, ask yourself this question: which do you think is more likely to cause a generation of children to grow up thinking queer couples are just as good as straight couples? the fact that some minor official who might pop up on TV from time to time happens to have a queer partner off-camera at home, or the nice lesbian couple down the street being accepted as equals before the law with their own straight parents?

i think it's a question of priorities. outside a few high-profile cases, government officials have less effect on the culture than broad changes on the low end which are both more ubiquitous and more visible in everyday life. the right wing has been very successful in focusing on the grassroots while we've spent a lot of time and blown a lot of political capital pushing for largely symbolic higher-profile positions.

OK, this is all built on assumptions, but compared to a millenia ago the major Islamic countries seem to be a lot less inteelectually active now than then.

while i think it is more complicated than that, i think the broader point is well-taken. the US is, in many ways, becoming the new Ottoman Empire - insular, increasingly backwards yet increasingly resistant to change, and powerful but unsustainable to the point where collapse is looming. the rest of the world needs to start treating us like the self-destructive drunk at the party, and should make minimizing and containing the damage we're going to do when we go down a major priority.

They weren't really going to bother 'proving' this, they weren't really going to bother 'arguing' it, they were just going to say it, and keep saying it until they got the legislative changes they wanted.

the right wing's total disregard for expert opinion gets more and more overt and more and more apalling every day.
 
 
Chiropteran
12:20 / 13.12.04
[rot]
Relevant Dykes To Watch Out For Cartoon

I parsed that completely wrong - it looked like some kind of weird newspaper headline, and I just didn't know what was going on....

[/rot]

~L, pouring himself more coffee
 
 
Mourne Kransky
12:42 / 13.12.04
Alas, Section 28 was a clause in the UK’s 1988 Local Government Act that said local authorities (who run all the state schools here) shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality or promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship.

Local councils were forbidden to distribute, or use for teaching purposes, any material that portrayed gay relationships as anything other than abnormal.

Its effects were more felt in the self censorship that would mean teachers would back off from discussing anything to do with gay people in calssrooms rather than that anybody was locked up for doing so. Funding became problematic for groups looking for grants and doing work in the area of gay rights /education /young people.

It was a blow to the Homoliberal World Domination agenda but not entirely without unintended positive consequences.

It was contemporaneous with a period of great change in public attitudes here to gay rights and, to some extent, having Section 28 as a focus united the efforts of the LGBT activists, who had often been ineffectively subdivided in the past.

Even the Tories, who dreamed up the damn thing, must have repented of it as it became yet another divisive social issue for them to squabble over, leading to their last seven years in the political wilderness with plummeting levels of popular support.

In May, 2000 - in the first and last case of its kind – the Christian Institute, an evangelical organisation, unsuccessfully took Glasgow City Council to court for funding an AIDS support charity which the Institute alleged promoted homosexuality, a breach of Section 28.

Bush's plan sounds similar in many respects to Section 28. Hope it turns around and bites him in the bum, as Section 28 latterly did to its promulgators here. The Christian Right are just as prejudiced and paranoid here as in the US and this was widely seen as proving how out of touch, ineffectual and lacking in compassion they were. But you do have so many more of them!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:23 / 13.12.04
OK, this is all built on assumptions, but compared to a millenia ago the major Islamic countries seem to be a lot less inteelectually active now than then. Of course, I don't know that, there are outside pressures on the countries and our news media is still biased away from helping any good news getting out, but these guys invented '0', beat some of the discoveries and developments of the Western Enlightenment by centuries and now nothing. Is this due to the rise of a certain kind of religious theocracy?

At the risk of being obvious, how many theocracies are there in the Middle East? Iran, which has a democratic component... but the main form of government is aristocratic (or in the UAE, federal emirate oligarchy). I would suggest that, while religion obviosuly has a huge impact on study in the Islamic republics (but honestly not such a one as you'd think - people tend to be pretty adaptable. For example, the belief that the Earth is flat and the principle of radar can be held together in a single mind if necessary), I'd suggest that power, money and statehood also play a very large part. If you have been part of an empire until 50 years ago, and have been as a state subject to constant buffeting and power struggles by your former colonial occupiers, all of whom have a vested interest in keeping you a bit fucked, and your governments tend to be spending a lot of money keeping themselves in power, te tum te tum, your scholarship and scientific excellence is not going to be a priority. Comparing the medieval Islamic world with the modern Middle East is not unlike comparing Germany to the Holy Roman Empire - there are far more differences than the importance of religion in the process of everyday life.

Also, of course, a lot depends on how you define intellectual activity. Genomics, for example, may not be experiencing a golden age in the Middle East, but for Quranic scholarship and Calligraphy the serious work, I think, is to a great extent still going down in the Islamic republics... as Alas has pointed out of the novel in the 19th century, different groups assign value to very different areas, and it's important to keep in mind that what seems to you a failure may simply not be aiming to do the same things.

A Christian Right USA may not go great guns on the stem cell research, but can still be expected to lead the field in robotics, space technology, weapons research...
 
 
eddie thirteen
00:15 / 14.12.04
Flyboy --

All I'm really saying is that I have read work in an academic setting that I suspect was added to the syllabus less on the basis of what that work had to teach students than on the basis of creating an inclusive syllabus. I don't think throwing out work because it "promotes an agenda" contrary to what the scary Jesus people believe is a good plan at all, but I also stop short of suggesting that every work of art currently taught in our universities is there for the sole purpose of teaching students work on its own intrinsic merits. PC is still with us. But how to handle that? My own opinion of work that seems (to me) to be included more in the interest of cultural diversity than in the interest of exposing students to excellent art is entirely contingent upon my own reading of what excellence consists of, which is subjective.

I personally feel that the inclusion of Louise Erdrich and Toni Morrison (to use two examples) is a refreshing breath of air; because of ethnicity, because they are women, I can see how they might be slighted, and I think depriving students of them would represent a significant loss. I do not, however, believe that any writer should be included on the BASIS of minority status, and I do think that sometimes happens. At the same time, I definitely do not believe that any artist's work should be left to one side BECAUSE of his/her minority status.

So no, I am not on the side of the scary neocons who want stuff gone because it makes them uncomfortable. But I would be very curious to learn what art does make them comfortable. If -- as I suspect -- it's art they want there because of ITS "agenda," and not due to its intrinsic worthwhileness, that would certainly say a lot about where their priorities lie.
 
 
eddie thirteen
00:24 / 14.12.04
I want to add, too, that I believe those canon decisions must ultimately be made by academics. No one asks academics what the US' foreign policy should be (except on talk shows and on one Tuesday in early November every four years); the government probably doesn't need to be involved in academia. When you consider the number of people in politics whose degrees are in business -- pretty much the dummy degree -- asking politicians to make big decisions about academia is a little like appointing Britney Spears or the Rock minister of culture. Nevertheless, I do agree that the canon could benefit from revision (constant revision, it seems to me, may be the wisest policy), and would like to know what the neocons think should be done, if only so that I can laugh at them.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:41 / 14.12.04
I do agree that the canon could benefit from revision

But it *is*, isn't it? I mean, what you are describing is nothing like the Leavisite canon... the problem being that the neocons are not proposing at staff meetings what should or should not be on the syllabus. They appear to be talking about legislating to prevent books from being taught. That is, they are locking down what can be taught according to what they believe to be, funnily enough, politically correct. And yet it seems that Political Correctness is being used by you to denote decisions made by academics with no political power rather than decisions being considered by the most successful and powerful politician in the US.

More broadly, I'm afraid I am not very up on the state of undergraduate English in the US. Could you provide some suggestions of what books you currently feel to be canonical for the wrong reasons?
 
 
Liger Null
14:39 / 14.12.04
What we need is strategic retreat from the red states to consolidate our power in the blue states, adopt a states' rights approach, and start building from the ground up, starting with organized campaigns to purge conservatives from local government.

You're probably right. But the cost of living is so low down here...

I just hoped this country would've have grown out of this foolishness by the twenty-first century. I mean really, banning books that mention Homosexuality? What kind of paint are they huffing in Alabama?

And why haven't I heard about this outside the internet?
 
 
Liger Null
15:02 / 14.12.04
They appear to be talking about legislating to prevent books from being taught.

Not just taught, read. Allen wants to ban these books from ALL libraries in Alabama, not just school libraries. Which means that you or I couldn't just walk into a public library in Alabama and check out a copy of Bridget Jones' Diary because one of the characters is gay.

Leaving aside whether or not you would ever want to

This goes above and beyond issues of "canon" and "child protection." This is the worst kind of book-burning censorship I have heard proposed in years.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Bush hasn't officialy condoned this legislation that I know of, nor has anyone else expressed any kind of support for it besides Allen himself.

But like Ganesh, I am worried about those five meetings...
 
 
diz
17:57 / 14.12.04
politicians to make big decisions about academia is a little like appointing Britney Spears or the Rock minister of culture

oh, my, that would be sweet - THE ROCK laying the cultural smackdown on alllllllllllll your candy asses!

my first preference in any election is the candidate which best represents my politics, but my second preference is always for the most absurd candidate. blame the Discordians for polluting my mind.

You're probably right. But the cost of living is so low down here...

but you pay for every dollar of those savings in crap like this...

I just hoped this country would've have grown out of this foolishness by the twenty-first century.

we all did, but, frankly, i think at this point that it's dangerously naive and counterproductive to presume that it's going to get any better before it gets a lot worse.

I mean really, banning books that mention Homosexuality? What kind of paint are they huffing in Alabama?

probably the same paint that makes the vast majority of the population support Roy Moore, the "Ten Commandments" judge, who has proposed the death penalty for homosexuals, and which caused them to reject an amendment to the state constitution repealing its guarantee of segregated schools.

i think a lot of liberals in the US have made the mistake of underestimating the deep conservatism of certain segments of the population. a lot of people would like to believe that the right-wing hate figures we've seen so much of are more radical than their constituents, when in fact the opposite seems likely to be true.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Bush hasn't officialy condoned this legislation that I know of, nor has anyone else expressed any kind of support for it besides Allen himself.

he hasn't denounced it, either. when is the last time someone on the right in the US demonstrated that they believe that there would be such a thing as "going too far" in the direction of a theocracy?

look at the "faith-based initiative." Bush has always made token rhetorical gestures of inclusion with regard to non-Christian religious beliefs in his speeches on the topic, but, as i understand it, not a single non-Christian group has received funding to this date. they don't come out and say that this is government funding for Christian churches and possibly Jewish organizations, they just conveniently omit things where necessary and rely on lower-level flunkies to do the dirty work and speak the truth to their base.
 
 
eddie thirteen
19:33 / 14.12.04
I'll give one example, Haus, from The Norton Anthology of American Literature:

<<...The horse labored too, its gait growing heavy as loose sand fouled its footing; but at each attempt to break stride into a trot, there was the prick of spur point, a jerk at the reins. It was a habit with the rider.

"Keep going! Earn your feed, you hammerhead!"

Brinder was always saying that his horses didn't earn their feed. Yet he was the hardest rider in the country.>>

Yes, the entire country. The above is not from the first chapter of a Zane Grey novel, but from the first section of D'Arcy McNickle's "Hard Riding" -- a short story circa the 1950s, written by a Native American author (published posthumously), the point of which is to show that a white man who attempts to impose democracy upon a reservation is doomed to fail, due to the greater wisdom of the zenlike Native Americans whom the Man has placed in his charge. Well-intentioned, to be sure, but hardly an example of great writing, or even convincing dialogue or of characterization that extends much beyond the one-dimensional -- read it and you'll see what I mean. Reading it isn't an unpleasant experience...it isn't bad fiction, per se...but is it so exceptional that this story deserves to be included along with maybe a dozen other examples of American fiction from the 20th Century? What got squeezed out to make room? I'll give you an idea -- there's no Joyce Carol Oates in the Norton anthology, no Harlan Ellison, no Bradbury (!), no John Edgar Wideman or Walter Mosley (because we have Langston Hughes -- who needs another black writer?), no...well, no a LOT of people. There's no question in my mind its inclusion is due to politics; as the Jesus People might say, we should not read The Bible for its prose, and indeed the purpose of including this work seems to be its "point," and not the story itself.

In any event, I'd suggest going to the library and hunting down a copy of the Norton book for your own examples -- it's pretty widely taught, and a good way of learning what today's students of literature are being told are the standards to which they should aspire as writers.

Backing up for a minute, though, I want to stress that my point was that the neocons were perhaps not so off-base when they suggested that some work was taught on the basis of its "agenda" (and not because it was necessarily good). But I don't think I made my objection to them clear enough, probably because it seemed so...well...common sense; I mean, if you want to remove, oh, I dunno, Shakespeare's Sonnets, if for no better reason than they suggest Will may have had a boner for some guy (and a "dark lady" -- *gasp!* you don't think she might have been...you know...a NEGRO, do you?), then clearly homophobia has blinded one to quality work; and, unable to recognize quality, such a person should nobly remove him/herself from making such judgments.
 
 
eddie thirteen
20:59 / 14.12.04
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....

If in fact these folks are, as Woodtiger suggests, talking about making these books totally inaccessible to everyone (or at least everyone who chooses to check them out of libraries and not actually buy them), then that's a whole other story, and I definitely missed THAT part. Simply rendering books unobtainable to all is a completely different issue from deciding whether they should be taught, or even whether they should be available at a school library. If THAT'S what they're proposing, then seriously, the guy who suggested this needs to just grow a little mustache and start wearing a swastika armband so there's no confusion.
 
 
Liger Null
03:07 / 15.12.04
If in fact these folks are, as Woodtiger suggests, talking about making these books totally inaccessible to everyone

I'm just going by what this article says. Like I said before, I think it's a bit too kooky even for Alabama. But what concerns me is that the national climate is such that these people are actually confident about persuing this legislation in the first place.
 
  

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