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What crimes would you commit?

 
  

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Smoothly
18:42 / 07.12.04
If you were sure you'd get away with it, what laws would you break?

I'm pretty sure I'd nick some stuff. There are various places I'd break and enter. There are one or two people I think I might beat to death if I had carte blanche...

What about you? Are the criminal penalties alone stopping you from doing anything?
 
 
sleazenation
18:47 / 07.12.04
Or to put it another way - is there anything you wouldn't do even if you could get away with it?
 
 
Smoothly
19:00 / 07.12.04
Yes. If you're a psychopath and that's easier.
 
 
Saint Keggers
19:11 / 07.12.04
Im so ripping that tag off of the mattress!!
 
 
---
19:21 / 07.12.04
The universal law that states that I have to sleep, and get tired if I don't.

I'd like to decide myself if I want to sleep or not, and not get tired if I choose not to.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:00 / 07.12.04
I'd cover Kilroy in shit.

I think someone should do it at least once every day.
 
 
■
22:16 / 07.12.04
Gravity.
 
 
Baz Auckland
00:51 / 08.12.04
I'd probably explore a lot...or 'trespass' as The Man would say... there's all sorts of fun abandoned subway stations, high-security buildings, and other places you never get to see the inside of.
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
05:00 / 08.12.04
I think Sleaze pinned it when he asked what wouldn't we do?

I guess anything that makes me feel bad despite no personal reprecussions would be off the table. But that leaves a whole messload of evil I could perpetrate in clear conscience. Theft, assault, murder, assassination, libel, fraud, mixing meat with dairy, you name it, all so long as the victims either deserved it or somehow remained an abstraction.

/+,
 
 
Smoothly
08:56 / 08.12.04
Lawks. Would you rape someone?

I really didn't expect sleaze's formulation to be the more natural angle. When this came up in a meat-space conversation, I said I'd rob a *bank* and my interlocutor looked aghast.
Nice one VJB, Jr. I definitely want you on my crew when the revolution comes.
 
 
Char Aina
09:00 / 08.12.04
i already commit all the crimes i can get away with.



but if you could find a way to remove the harm from other crimes i might be tempted to dabble...

perhaps some kinda 'rewind-all-time-so-no-one-notices-how-dead-they-are' machine would be good; for trying out various dastardly deeds in a de sade style, only to erase them from all but my own mind...

god, i could have so much fun!

not only would i be able to commit atrocities like others smoke cigarettes, i could repeat my heinous acts ad nauseam!
how many times do you think one can violate george bush before it becomes mundane? would it ever?




more seriously, where would the line be drawn if none of your actions need exist after you have experienced them?
no ramifications, no comeback, no need to consider others other than to placate your own conscience?

i would like to think that i would stop somewhere short of genocide, but would i?
i've already killed millions in the consequence free killing zone that is computer games, so why not?
 
 
Loomis
09:41 / 08.12.04
Why do I get the feeling that this thread will one day be used in someone's trial?

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it is clear that Mr Toksik's homicidal rampage through an old folks' home was due to the influence of computer games and the internet, and the encouragement he believed himself to have received from what he termed 'fiction suits'."

I think the fact that the people are still going to feel the pain of the experience, even if you rewind time afterwards, would seem to negate the justification of your experiments.

As for myself, I don't generally feel that the law prohibits my natural inclinations too much. Although I'd like to be able to smoke at the cinema. I suppose if I really thought about it then perhaps the odd killing could improve the world a little, but to be honest I don't have any particular urge to steal, kill or smash.

Mind you, I would enjoy the opportunity to be exempt from liability for certain crimes against fashion.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:52 / 08.12.04
I'd do the whole 100 Bullets on Blunkett. You'd have to take out so many people if you go after Bush or Blair, but for some reason I think that getting rid of Blunko wouldn't actually result in him being replaced by someone worse.

I'd also like to give Ian Paisley a big 'Tango!' and Martin McGuiness a big 'Spam!'

Wedgies for World Peace!
 
 
sleazenation
10:13 / 08.12.04
Where I was coming from when I formulated the ''what wouldn't you do - if you could get away with anything" is the idea that when questions of law enforcement are removed the only bars on our actions are ones of imagination, personal morality and empathy with one's fellow man. While I'm sure it's nice to think that the ability to 'commit any crimes and get away with it' would not result in mass murder, ethnic cleansing and systematic rape of the weak by the strong, experiences in failing states across the world from Rwanda to the former Yugoslavia would not seem to bear that out.
 
 
Smoothly
10:45 / 08.12.04
Yeah, I understand your point, sleaze. I just wondered how individuals imagine their own behaviour would change if they had a unique get-out-of-jail-free card; To what extend Barbeloids feel that state-enforced legal penalties are the only thing standing between them and criminal behaviour; how much we are constrained by their own conscience, morality, squeamishness, etc.
I thought there was a fair chance that some would say that they wouldn't behave any differently at all - aisde, say, parking wherever they wanted. I didn't expect anyone to struggle to think what evils acts they *wouldn't* carry out.
Isn't it a little harder to condemn the perpetrators of atrocities in Africa and the Balkans if you claim you'd do the same sorts of things yourself if you could get away with it?
 
 
sleazenation
11:31 / 08.12.04
Yeah, I understand your point, sleaze. I just wondered how individuals imagine their own behaviour would change if they had a unique get-out-of-jail-free card; To what extend Barbeloids feel that state-enforced legal penalties are the only thing standing between them and criminal behaviour; how much we are constrained by their own conscience, morality, squeamishness, etc.

To an extent I have a feeling that such questions are slightly artificial since they are not being asked in the consequence-free environment a ‘get-out-of-jail-free card’ would create, but in an environment subject to both the rule of law and communal censure. People might well say there are things they wouldn’t do even if they could get away with it, they might even believe it, but I have strong, uncomfortable, suspicions that people would behave very differently if they felt able to act on strong emotions without risk to themselves. I also think that a possessing a limitless supply of ‘get-out-of-jail-free cards’ would merely serve to increase to scope crimes ordinary people would commit.

It could well be that you are assuming a one off act of law-breaking, whereas I am thinking more of environments where law and order has broken down.

Isn't it a little harder to condemn the perpetrators of atrocities in Africa and the Balkans if you claim you'd do the same sorts of things yourself if you could get away with it?

This is one of the problems Governments face when prosecuting war crimes – their own moral rectitude. It’s a bit hard to condemn the morality of bombing Coventry on moral grounds while claiming moral superiority for the bombing of Dresden.

Or, to put it another way – how can you personally condemn murder as immoral when you happily admit that you could quite comfortablely ‘beat [someone] to death’ if you knew you could get away with it?
 
 
Smoothly
12:34 / 08.12.04
It could well be that you are assuming a one off act of law-breaking, whereas I am thinking more of environments where law and order has broken down.

Yup. That's how I meant it - what laws you would break if you had individual immunity, rather than how you would behave if law and order had broken down generally.

Sure, it's artificial, but I still think it's worth contemplating. There are all kinds of approaches you might take. There are all kinds of rationales under which someone might favour a particular course of action as an individual without wanting it to be universalised. You might opt out of paying tax to make your own family's life more comfortable, knowing that the consequences for everyone else is negligible, for instance.

I also think that a possessing a limitless supply of ‘get-out-of-jail-free cards’ would merely serve to increase to scope crimes ordinary people would commit.

That's what I'm interested in. To what extent? Is it just the penal consequences that stop ordinary people from doing the most awful things? To what extent are individuals self policing? Many would say that they would break bad laws, but it seems some would also break good laws if they were given the chance. I might have asked: Would you break a good law? Why?

how can you personally condemn murder as immoral when you happily admit that you could quite comfortablely ‘beat [someone] to death’ if you knew you could get away with it?

Quite. I'm not taking the moral high-ground here.
 
 
sleazenation
12:50 / 08.12.04
The thing is, I think that a limitless supply of ‘get out of jail cards' would not only inevitably lead to the break down of law and order - I think in a very real sense it is a practicle working definition of a breakdown of law and order.
 
 
Smoothly
13:13 / 08.12.04
Well, I'm not sure that that's true. It's only *you* who has the GOOJF cards, and I don't think even your bad self could bring civilisation to its knees alone, sleaze.
 
 
sleazenation
13:29 / 08.12.04
So you don't think the inherant injustice of one person consistently acting outside the law and consistantly getting away with it wouldn't inspire others to follow suit, either to emulate the original transgressor or to take the law into their own hands in an attempt to create 'justice' where none seems to exist?
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
13:36 / 08.12.04
You could reasonably argue that one person, unchecked, has the absolute ability to reduce a nation to disorder and chaos in a short space of time.

In theory, you are able to get away with anything you could hack and destroy an entire country's banking and monetary system. Removal of such a load bearing social structure would ensure that even martial law could not control the populace.

You would, in essence, have more power than the head of state and therefore govern the country by dictatorship should you choose to exercise it.

On the other hand, if given one single crime without fear of retribution or punishment then I would genuinely implicate Blunkett in a scandal significant enough to end his career with no chance of return.
 
 
Smoothly
13:51 / 08.12.04
So you don't think the inherant injustice of one person consistently acting outside the law and consistantly getting away with it wouldn't inspire others to follow suit

Probably not. At least not enough to destroy law and order. I mean, lots of people do consistently act outside the law and get away with it.

Perhaps the GOOJF card was the wrong short-hand. I didn't necessarily have a kind of extended diplomatic immunity in mind. Say you'd get away with the crime because you're really good at getting away with crimes. Would you rob a bank if you could find a chink in the security that, for these intents and purposes, meant you knew you'd get away with it.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
14:02 / 08.12.04
Even with the description you provide you could still bring down a nation. With the right planning and resources you could get away with any crime you wanted and if you have a talent for that then it just makes it easier.

Unless you want to introduce a one crime limit or provide a shopping list.
 
 
Smoothly
14:10 / 08.12.04
Even with the description you provide you could still bring down a nation

Hmm, yes. I do take your points. I suppose the question that remains is 'So, would you?'.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
14:14 / 08.12.04
That question is unanswerable without additional information. Ergo the answer is a maybe, however that seems to take the entire notion away from a crime and into the politics of extreme social change and the mechanisms to do so.
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
16:16 / 08.12.04
(threadrot)
i was going to mention some bright orange flared dungarees but the thread swiftly went all serious
(/threadrot)

seriously, without wishing to incriminate myself, i believe that getting caught is what makes a crime. there are plenty of unlawful things that i may have done, going over 30mph, possession/supply, assault etc. all of which i *knew* i'd get away with, being white and middle class. there are a number of things i wouldn't do even if/though they are/were legal, but that is a matter of my bourgeoise morality.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:06 / 08.12.04
I don't think I'd be able to commit murder. Even if it was not only legal but compulsory- causing pain to anyone always makes me feel sick. God, I'm so virtuous (joke).
The only way I'd be able to do it would be to do as the Nazis did, and convince myself that they weren't actually human. But then, I'm still haunted by the time when I was about nine and went fishing (with a bucket on the end of some string) and caught a fish which I was determined to take home and show my parents. Unfortunately, it was very much alive, and I eventually had to pretty much sever its head with my penknife before it stopped flapping. Seriously, I didn't sleep for a week after that.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:07 / 08.12.04
I don't think I'd be able to commit murder.
Actually, I'll rephrase that. I think I could, but I don't think I could live with the guilt.
 
 
lekvar
23:25 / 08.12.04
Headless clone farm.

*hums*
Old Mac Lekvar had a farm, doo dah, doo dah...
 
 
Olulabelle
23:36 / 08.12.04
I think this thread should be in the Headshop.

A good way of acceptably and rationally considering what you would do if you could 'get away with it' is possibly to consider what you would do if you were in a situation where your choices were no longer governed by law.

It's easy to posit to a question like that that 'I'd rob a bank, I'd kill, I'd rape,' when you live in a society where you know you never could get away with it. Prison is not a lure for most people and considering behaviour that is 'against the law' demands you also consider the relevant punishment.

But if you imagine a society where all such laws were fallen and where there is no punishment it is very much easier to specifically identify what you would and would not do. Which 'antisocial' behaviour you would take part in.

For example, I would say if you asked me in the here and now that I would never kill someone. However, (and for argument's sake) one could say that it's not that I 'couldn't', per se, it's just that I know not to and that the threat of punishment dissuades me.

But what if it was Armageddon? What then? No punishment. No consequence. What if someone broke into my house and tried to kill my son? What if they tried to rape me?
What if 'all' they were going to do was steal my food? In a society where food becomes a hugely valuable commodity and bargaining tool I feel sure that I would very easily be able to defend my homestead and in those circumstances I am absolutely sure I could and would very easily kill.

Because what would be the consequences? Certainly not punishment, certainly not prison. The 'consequences' would be that I defended my food stock succesfully and therefore enabled myself and my family to continue to live.

A man approaches my house looking 'shifty'. I assess the situation. I know there is no punishment for murder so...what?

I shoot the gun.

And as I have in theory done this, does that mean I have to answer to the question in hand that I would kill if I could get away with it?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:01 / 09.12.04
Surely that's more a question of "if you had to/thought you had to" than "if you knew you could get away with it".
I'm pretty sure I'm capable of ANYTHING if I think there's no other choice (note- when I say "capable", I don't mean I'd be any good at it. In your situation, I'd shoot the gun, miss by a mile, and be dead before I got another chance to draw a bead), but I'm pretty damn sure I wouldn't WANT to.
As the law currently stands (though not for much longer, please God) I'm allowed to hunt foxes. But I couldn't do it.

This is the reason why my long-held ambition to become a serial killer will always remain unfulfilled. (That was a joke, by the way. Though I'm still dead serious about becoming a cult leader.)
 
 
Smoothly
00:09 / 09.12.04
I believe that getting caught is what makes a crime ... There are a number of things I wouldn't do even if/though they are/were legal, but that is a matter of my bourgeoise morality.

I don't understand you, inchocolate. Sounds like you might be getting at something interesting though. Care to expand?


I know what you mean, Stoatie. Repulsion would be a big limiting factor for me too. I said there are one or two people I think I might murder, but I'm not confident that I could go through with it if the situation arose. I suspect that there are situations (like some of the ones oulabelle suggests) in which I like to think I would, but for delusionally macho reasons.

Maybe it is best to imagine it in a lawless environment. I assume people were more likely to be murdered in less ordered times. I wonder what the graph of murders per capita would look like over the last, say, thousand years. (Anyone know?)
I just don't know that I would be able to blast someone with a shotgun for looking shifty - even if I feared my own security. I'm not *absolutely* sure I could kill someone in direct self-defense. I honestly doubt I could do it messily.

There was a half-decent programme on Channel 5 not that long ago about the 'killer instinct'. Evidence collected from battlefields (from WW2 to (I think) the English Civil War) suggests that only a very small minority of front-line infantry tried to shoot the enemy. Most aimed to miss, or - from the evidence of muskets found with 20 or 30 rounds stacked in the barrel - pretended to fire. Point is, I'm have my doubts that, without the proper reprogramming, most people would be capable of many of the things others think they are.
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
23:47 / 09.12.04
Lawks. Would you rape someone?

Did I say I would? That's something I have no interest in. Not that sex with anyone I so desire isn't a nice fantasy, but that's not one of those that I consider as being without definite victims.

Nice one VJB, Jr. I definitely want you on my crew when the revolution comes.

Your crew, memsahib? :D

/+,
 
 
Ganesh
23:59 / 09.12.04
Furthest I'd go would be petty theft, I think. I'd steal from the rich and the poor and the not-very-rich, but I might draw the line at the very poor.
 
 
Liger Null
00:48 / 10.12.04
I would liberate all the chimpanzees from all the animal research facilities in the country and train an army of apes, with which I would storm the White House.

I would call it "Operation Family Reunion."
 
  

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