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Underground > Comic Books >

Fables: Why Should I Read It?

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15:28 / 08.12.04

What's interesting is that neither the Brunt nor anybody else has acually engaged with my point (preferring instead to throw a hissy about the way in which I made it), to wit: to lavish praise on a book for the mere fact of its having a story that noticeably moves forward says something rather disquieting about the low expectations that comics fans have for the medium.

So Bill Willingham is writing a story with a beginning, middle, and (eventually) end. Are you telling me that for this, he deserves a friggin' medal?

I'm thinking not.

But then, I'm hard to please.
Harder than some, anyway.

Haus of Mystery

15:53 / 08.12.04

Meow.

16:03 / 08.12.04

Okay, he doesn't deserve a medal for having an ongoing narrative. I'm prepared to admit that. But he writes an entertaining comic that I've become very fond of. It's a nice little book that obviously isn't to everyones tastes but there are a lot worse comics out there.

The point I was vaguely attempting to make in my original post, and could probably have managed were I not an anal-retentive retard, is that one of the aspects I enjoy about it is the continuing narrative. The progression of the characters as the events of each story shapes them, is something that I paticularly enjoy about the comic.

Regrettable Juvenilia

20:21 / 09.12.04

But you also implied that most other comics hit the reset button continuously. Is that really true of, say, the rest of Vertigo's current line-up?

22:19 / 09.12.04

Yeahm I probably did imply that. Because as we've established I'm an anally retentive retard. But there you go. The whole post was a mistake, I utterly failed to get across what I meant to say and showed myself to be utterly a cunt. But I appreciate your politeness in that last post, that was nice.

10:34 / 10.12.04

No, Dave, you really didn't, you just hadn't thought what you were saying through. Unfortunately Jack felt the need to point it out in a rather confrontational manner.

Frankly, I don't blame you for being a little pissed off.

12:30 / 10.12.04

Ah but I've learnt my lesson, so some good is to come of this. Never post messages after working the nightshift and being up for two days straight as that will make it even more obvious to everyone that you're an anally retentive retard. Thanks though.

Incidentally I've just read the latest issue and it's really a good example of what the comics about. Should anybody still be interested I suggest you just buy the current issue and see if you like it enough to read the next one. Lovely scen with Flycatcher and Beast this month.

Haus of Mystery

13:12 / 10.12.04

Dude, stop calling yourself an anally retentive retard.

13:22 / 10.12.04

Particularly since I didn't call you one in the first place...

15:33 / 10.12.04

No, but the implication was there. I'd have realised the difference if I weren't an anally retentive retard.

I like the expression, I've adopted it as a personal mantra. I may get a T-shirt printed.

06:56 / 11.12.04

Not so - much of the character's interaction was based upon relationships set up in the original show. And part of the appeal of MB was that you could see them in their formative stages, with often knowing winks for the audience thrown in.

Whee, tangents! Anyway, I disagree, but I'm going to leave it at that because I want that conversation to DIE.

What's interesting is that neither the Brunt nor anybody else has acually engaged with my point (preferring instead to throw a hissy about the way in which I made it), to wit: to lavish praise on a book for the mere fact of its having a story that noticeably moves forward says something rather disquieting about the low expectations that comics fans have for the medium.

No, Jack, what's interesting is that you didn't have much of a point to begin with. I'm not sure what was apparently so difficult about pulling what Brunt meant out of his first post. And yes, you came off as more than a little snarky, and more than a little elitist, and when called on it, you tried to act (more than a little) as though you were the misunderstood one.

In the words of Bill Hicks, "Shut up and smoke this." "Oh, sorry, I was takin' life seriously for a second!"

09:21 / 11.12.04

Uh, Bjork, I think most of us actually agree with Jack. That's why there's been no debate.

18:32 / 11.12.04

I don't, which is why I said what I did. And regardless of whether you agree with his point or not, he did get called on being needlessly a general bastard in that post by more than one person.

That, and I still don't see where the difficulty comes in for finding Brunt's meaning from his initial post. So sue me.

Haus of Mystery

12:27 / 12.12.04

Whee, tangents! Anyway, I disagree, but I'm going to leave it at that because I want that conversation to DIE.

So you highlighted my words to say you don't agree. Good argument! Keep them blinkers on.

14:58 / 12.12.04

That, and I still don't see where the difficulty comes in for finding Brunt's meaning from his initial post.

I'm not sure that Dave's meaning hasn't been understood by all present, and I think the oness is on you to demonstrate otherwise. What is this mysterious meaning that we're all having such difficulty teasing out?
Dave doesn't seem to feel particularly misunderstood (correct me if I'm wrong, Dave), just a bit trampled.

18:28 / 12.12.04

I didn't feel agrieved that what I wrote was called into question - what I meant to write and what I wrote have an ambiguous connection at best. I'm quite prepared to admit that what I say isn't always right or perfectly expressed. What I was annoyed about was the way it was called into question, it's that rudeness that the faceless nature of the internet allows people to get away with that really pisses me off. I just felt that Jack had gone to more effort to come up with a self aggrandisingly cool remark than it would have taken him just to respond politley.

But that's neither here nor there. Bjork understood what I meant to say and couldn't see why others couldn't. From his point of view I can see why it would have been exasperating that others didn't and for his kind words and support I thank him. I can see why others might not have automatically understood what I meant to say, as I say it was ambiguous.

I remain yours, anally retentive and retarded,
dxb

08:57 / 13.12.04

Dave, could you expand on that ambiguity a bit, because I just don't see where you've been misunderstood.
I took your intial post to be arguing that one of Fables' virtues is genuine continuity: actions have consequences that resonate throughout the entire narrative and aren't just conveniently brushed aside in order to make way for the next big story arc/ writer, or the ominous, ever present status quo. This helps create a more believable and interesting fictional world than those fantasy landscapes inhabited by most comic-book characters.

Okay, so you didn't mention beginnings, middles and ends, but Jack's point still applies to the position I've sketched above. The link between Jack's post and your own - assuming I've understood you correctly -, is, then, far from tenuous.

I'm sorry if you think I'm needlessly dragging this out, and I really do appreciate how annoying message boards can be, but I think that Jack raised a good (and relevant) point.

11:58 / 13.12.04

No, you see this is all getting more confused because I'm an anally retentive retard who can't properly communicate.

I understand why Jack replied the way he did (though the way he went about it was uncalled for), I don't think that was a tenuous reply.

I just didn't express myself properly in the initial post. Because I'm an anally retentive retard. Probably.

12:04 / 13.12.04

Not to emntion "self-flagellating beyond the point of amusement." Christ, Brunt: suck it up and get on with your life.

12:11 / 13.12.04

Bjork understood what I meant to say and couldn't see why others couldn't. From his point of view I can see why it would have been exasperating that others didn't and for his kind words and support I thank him.

I suppose my last post pretty much comes down to this question: What is it that Bjork understood and the rest of us didn't?

12:59 / 13.12.04

"It's just a fun comic, so any lack of research—not to mention of any mythological, historical, or emotional resonance—is, at least in this case, not only not a failing, it is in fact a positive virtue," presumably. (I may be paraphrasing slightly.)

To which I must say: Disagree. Disrespectfully.

14:53 / 13.12.04

That reads more like Bjork's position, imo.

07:26 / 15.12.04

"It's just a fun comic, so any lack of research?not to mention of any mythological, historical, or emotional resonance?is, at least in this case, not only not a failing, it is in fact a positive virtue," presumably. (I may be paraphrasing slightly.)

To which I must say: Disagree. Disrespectfully.

Ha! Yes, you are paraphrasing, and more than just a little. Let me try and make my point a little clearer, so as to wipe up the apparent confusion. If someone wrote a fiction novel based on Disney's version ofMulan, would you be expressing dissapointment that they didn't cover how she was raped and murdered? Same thing at work here, essentially. This covers my response to bobossboy as well; not that it's really necessary, since he has such a good handle on me and all.

So you highlighted my words to say you don't agree. Good argument! Keep them blinkers on.

Jesus fuck. I'm curious; if you couldn't find some excuse to act like a total prick, would you just collapse into an intellectual black hole? Did it occur to you that I thought the conversation had taken a stupid turn and didn't personally want to continue it, but was at least trying to end it on a semi-humorous note? No, that would be too easy, not when you can act like a complete twat and probably get plenty of back-slaps for being so clever.

08:51 / 15.12.04

shut it kate bush or whoever crap you're named after, you know DICK about the muppets.

what does 'suck it up' mean?

is this more trisha-talk?

i mean Oprah-atics?

i do hope so.

Haus of Mystery

11:11 / 15.12.04

Jesus fuck. I'm curious; if you couldn't find some excuse to act like a total prick, would you just collapse into an intellectual black hole? Did it occur to you that I thought the conversation had taken a stupid turn and didn't personally want to continue it, but was at least trying to end it on a semi-humorous note? No, that would be too easy, not when you can act like a complete twat and probably get plenty of back-slaps for being so clever.

Merry Christmas!

What was all that shit about Mulan being raped and murdered? Can you form coherent arguments?

Fucking spanner.

ONLY NICE THINGS

12:03 / 15.12.04

Next week, on PBS...

I imagine that he is referring, correctly or not, to one of the myths surrounding Hua Mulan - not one I've heard of, though - the sad version usually involves her committing suicide rather than become the Emperor's concubine.

Now, any of you kids have any interest in comics whatsoever? I realise they are quite hard to read, involving sometimes as many as 24 pages of loosely-arranged text laid over very challenging pictures, but let's shall try, eh?

Let's look at Fables, for example. I lost the thread of it after the first story arc simply because it seemed to suffer from terrible Gaimanitis - a simplistic and literal interpretation of the subject matter aimed at the broadest possible audience. I did have a vague reflowering of interest when the adversary's forces turned up, but it felt, again, anticlimactic. The plot may be advancing, but is it actually advancing anywhere interesting?

07:20 / 16.12.04

I imagine that she is referring, correctly or not, to one of the myths surrounding Hua Mulan - not one I've heard of, though - the sad version usually involves her committing suicide rather than become the Emperor's concubine.

I'd heard a story that, after being 'discovered', she was raped by the army before being killed.
Fucking spanner.

Thanks for proving my point. Ass.

07:25 / 16.12.04

The plot may be advancing, but is it actually advancing anywhere interesting?

Depends on your pov, of course. Blue Boy going back to the Homelands to find ex-flame Red Riding Hood, taking the 'corpse' of Pinnochio along with; Bigby's father turning up at the farm to see his grandchildren; Fabletown falling apart because Prince Charming doesn't know what to do with his new post as Mayor; Frau Totenkinder's endless interrogation of Baba Yaga... and so on.

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:22 / 16.12.04

I'd heard a story that, after being 'discovered', she was raped by the army before being killed.

Which actually dovetails quite interestingly with the question of the quality of Willingham's research, raised earlier. You heard this story, and on the strength of having heard it you related it here as an example of Disney's poor research. But how good was *your* research. Hua Mulan has a number of treatments, in verse and prose,and one can reasonably at some point say "I have researched enough to be able to say something about Hua Mulan and be reasonably confident that I am not misleading my audience through error". Not, of course, entirely confident, and the books you have read may be forgeries, but you can at least believe yourself to be reasonably "up".

Now, we have this rape and murder tradition. I haven't come across it, but then I'm no scholar of Northern Dynasty verse, so who knows? Back to Willingham, who is drawing to a great extent on European traditions - is it useful to criticise him for not getting them "right", or do folk tales mature as they go - so, for example, Mulan being raped and murdered may not be a part of the source text, but a useful invention to show the cultural insensitivity of Disney, as the more complex suicide story would not - a bowdlerisation to criticise a bowdlerisation...

03:38 / 17.12.04

Isn't it possible to have a happy medium? Willingham employs enough of the conventions of the characters to make them recognizable and to color their particular personalities while taking them in his own direction.

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