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Racism in football

 
  

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Sax
06:16 / 23.11.04
Following Blackburn fans' delightful volley of monkey noises against Dwight Yorke on Sunday, which was itself hot on the heels of sectors of the Spanish crowd doing the same during the England v Spain friendly last week, do we infer from this that terrace racism is back, just like in the bad old days of the Seventies, or that it never actually went away?

Is racism a fact of life of football today, as evidenced by the need for a Kick Racism Out of Football campaign? Do we just not notice it much because it doesn't make the TV reports (and the fact that Premiership football is rarely on terrestrial TV any more)?

Could it be that a new generation who actually weren't around in the Seventies heard the Spanish fans last week and thought, hey, that'd be a really funny thing to do against Dwight Yorke?

Any thoughts from followers of the not-so (this week) beautiful game?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:56 / 23.11.04
My first suggestion here is that we separate the statements "I do not like football" from "football is irreparably racist". I think it can be very easy to conflate these, and it does both points of view a disservice.

For example, the racist abuse apparently directed at Dwight Yorke was apparently from two or three people, which does not bear comparison to the mass outburst in Madrid. Also, Blackburn have immediately responded by inviting leading local police officers to a meeting to discuss how to deal with the problem. Compare that to the reaction of the Spanish authorities and media, who took some time, and the involvement of senior government oficials on both sides, before starting to acknowledge how serious the issue was.

So... I'm not sure that the existence of a "kick racism out of football" campaign can be taken as evidence of football being more racist than, say, everything else. I can't think of many other walks of life in the UK where the senior teams are so racially mixed or equally remunerated. Also, it is pretty clear that racist chanting *does* make the news - see the Spain match, Millwall-Liverpool (possibly) and this latest situation. Likewise, although Premiership games are not on terrestrial TV, there is not much of a case to be made to suggest that _coverage_ of the Premiership is at a low ebb.

Could it be that a new generation who actually weren't around in the Seventies heard the Spanish fans last week and thought, hey, that'd be a really funny thing to do against Dwight Yorke?

Well, we're talking two or three people, apparently, and I don't know how old they are. It may be more likely that they had not been to a match since the 80s, or they had not realised that racist abuse is not acceptable. It's hard to tell. In a way, it doesn't matter, since the important thing is to make it clear that they cannot behave that way, regardless. A life ban from all English stadiums does not seem unreasonable.

Oddly, I suspect a lot of the people who have done this over the years would not consider themselves racists (wrongly, IMHO). They would just have decided that a rival footballer was fair game for any attempt to put him off his game, and that racial abuse was therefore an acceptable gambit. This was part of the problem in Madrid - the crowd felt that racist abuse was an allowable way to show support for Luis Aragones, and to affect the performance of the oppositionb team. Obviously, this is not the case, and it needs to be dealt with. If teams cannot control their fans, then the team has to be punished. In particular, countries which have not had a long history of immigration and of racally integrated football teams need to be shown that the standards they may feel comfortable with applying are not acceptable standards if they want to be a part of the lucrative international football community.

Then there's the doomsday question - if teams or national football associations cannot prevent racist behaviour from the terraces, what do you do?
 
 
sleazenation
10:23 / 23.11.04
close the terraces?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:34 / 23.11.04
Photograph, name and shame?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:49 / 23.11.04
Well, what do you mean by "terraces"? With the possible exception of Craven Cottage, I think all the Premiership's grounds are all-seater...

But yes, that might be a way to do it. Making national associations or clubs whose fans indulge in racist abuse, and who are not doing enough to combat it, play their next home game behind closed doors, and prevent their associations from organising trips or selling tickets to away games, for some length of time. It's a nuclear option, but not a bad one.

The other thing is that if the aim is to help your team by upsetting the opposition, then make it hurt the team. There is a problem with the victims of abuse walking off - England could and perhaps should have done it, given that they were playing in a friendly, but it has some real issues in competitive matches - but points deductions could work very well.
 
 
Sax
12:24 / 23.11.04
If the abuse is *bad* enough and causes enough problems perhaps there should also be an option to abandon the match and give three points to the victimised team.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:46 / 23.11.04
I do wonder, though admittedly as someone who couldn't really give a toss about football as an entity, if a competitive game is worth having thousands of people throw racist remarks at you. I mean, do we care more about points or the people kicking the ball? I think they should certainly have stopped playing for a friendly, it's pathetic that they weren't pulled off, I always knew all the things they said in school sports lessons about teamwork were absolute nonsense.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:13 / 23.11.04
When you say "we", Anna, do you mean we as a society, or do you mean specifically Shaun Wright-Phillips, Jermaine Jenas, Rio Ferdinand et al, or do you mean football supporters in general?

Geoff Thompson could certainly have instructed Sven Goran Eriksson to take the team in - I think it's shameful that he neither did that or expressed an official reaction until testing the wind - or Eriksson could have done it on his own, although in doing so he would probably have breached his contract. But to expect somebody who is trained to play football to make decisions about whether in effect to force the abandonment of the game... factor in that your footballer may be 19 or 20 and never have encountered racist abuse at that level before, and it becomes a heavy burden.

The fans are responsible (and they do care about three points, because it could be the difference between playing Manchester United and Sheffield United), and the administrators of the game (who care because points deductions impact on the status of the team at international level and on who gets large amounts of money at club level).. I wouldn't blame the footballers.
 
 
Loomis
10:48 / 24.11.04
In today's news: fan convicted of racially abusing black Celtic players.

"Alan Martin, a former Dundee Football Club season ticket holder, shouted "black bastard" and "suck bananas" while making monkey noises at the Celtic stars when the two teams met at Dens Park for a Scottish Premierleague match in March.

His racist tirade so sickened a 14-year-old Dundee fan that he reported the bricklayer’s labourer to the police, who kept Martin under surveillance in the second half of the game."
 
 
Loomis
13:23 / 24.11.04
Five-year ban for Yorke abuse.

"Jason Perryman, the Blackburn fan who today admitted racially abusing Dwight Yorke during Sunday's match between Rovers and Birmingham City, has been given a five-year banning order and told to pay a £1000 fine."
 
 
Peach Pie
22:34 / 01.12.04
It seems a bit strange for the FA to be lecturing the spanish football association about racial discrimation, when not a single Asian plays first team football in the premiership.
 
 
sleazenation
09:19 / 02.12.04
Secret Goldfish - so what would you advocate the FA do? Some form of affirmative action? What form could it possibly take?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:54 / 02.12.04
It seems a bit strange for the FA to be lecturing the spanish football association about racial discrimation, when not a single Asian plays first team football in the premiership.

Sun Jihai has captained Manchester City in the Premiership, I believe. Manchester United tried to sign Hidetoshi Nakata, and Junichi Inamoto played two seasons in the Premiership.

If you mean *British Asian*, then I think you may be right at present. However, Michael Chopra appeared for Newcastle United last season, and also represents England fairly regularly at youth level, and Harpal Singh is expected, all being well, to play in the Premiership within a few years, either with Leeds or having left Leeds.

What this has to do with racist chanting I don't know - it seems like a pretty odd comparison. Most obviously, while the FA is directly responsible for the England team and travelling support's behaviour, as the Spanish FA is for its team and its team's supporters, the FA is not responsible for dictating the transfer policies or team sheets of Premiership clubs. These are generally handled by the managers of the individual clubs, although in some cases transfers are largely the responsiblity of a Director of Football, and actual contract negotiations are generally handled by the Board.
 
 
Peach Pie
12:01 / 02.12.04
I'm observing, not advocating.

It seems to me that black players were grudgingly accepted into the english game when managers realised that some of them could play. But management is virtually devoid of non-whites, and I imagine it would be very hard for black people to break into, and impossible for british asians to do so at this time.

So I'm not sure it is such a strange comparison. The monkey chanting was disgraceful, but it was fairly obvious that the racist arigones would respond to attack by pointing out that racism is only ever just below the surface in the english game.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:30 / 02.12.04
Are you a football fan, SG, just out of interest.

I think I mentioned above, regarding transfer policies:

Most obviously, while the FA is directly responsible for the England team and travelling support's behaviour, as the Spanish FA is for its team and its team's supporters, the FA is not responsible for dictating the transfer policies or team sheets of Premiership clubs. These are generally handled by the managers of the individual clubs, although in some cases transfers are largely the responsiblity of a Director of Football, and actual contract negotiations are generally handled by the Board.

In much the same way, the FA does not appoint managers of Premiership or Football League clubs, so again it has limited relevance to the failure of the Spanish FA to censure Aragones or to control their fans at the Bernabeu. Aragones has already accused the British in general of being racist, but that hardly alters the fact that the behavour in the Bernabeu was exceptional and exceptionable. There are problems in English football, and I don't think anyone is denying that - see the entire thread so far. These include racist chanting at Leicester teams, and also individuals chanting racist abouse at players. On the plus side, these are being reported and the guilty parties banned from the game. Better that than it be ignored...

Incidentally, the first black player to play in England was Arthur Wharton in the 1880s, at a time when Scotland were capping their first black player. However, the traditional creation myth has the real floruit of black British players begin with Laurie Cunnigham, Cyrille Regis and Laurie Cunningham at West Brom - the first time three Black British players appeared in the same XI.

Now, quick bit of maths. That was 25 years or so ago. Football managers in Britain have traditionally almost exclusively been former professional footballers. You play, you retire, you take coaching courses, you become a manager. So, why were there so few Black British managers ten years ago? One factor was the very small number of black British ex-pros. Another one was almost certainly racism on the part of club chairmen. This is still a problem - David Sullivan recently proved that he is out of touch with modern business practices - but to say it would be very hard for black people to break into ignores Keith Alexander, Keith Curle, Carlton Plamer, John Barnes - all of whom are managing or have recently managed clubs - and black British ex-pros operating at a high level, such as Chris Hughton at Arsenal. Jean Tigana is non-white, IIRC, also. They *have* broken into management - which does not mean that there is not a definite need for attitudes to change and to keep changing in English football. There should, statistically, be more black managers. I suspect that the passing of the old guard of chairmen will help this, as will increasing numbers of highly successful and respected black ex-pros (which we are getting - the black British footballers looking for entry-level management jobs now were starting their careers in the mid-late 80s, when the number of black players at the top level was a fair chunk lower than nowadays - Everton had yet to sign a black player, which for a team that has relied so heavily on Joseph Yobo and before him Kevin Campbell to haul their arses out of the fire seems remarkable) who will be attractive, crowd-pleasing appointments at the lower levels.

As for impossible for British Asians.... well, yes. Because managers in Britain are almost all former professional footballers. As such, since there are currently no British Asian professional footballers in their mid to late 30s who have hung up their boots and taken UEFA coaching qualifications, it is indeed impossible for a large number of British Asian ex-professional footballers to become managers. Because they don't really exist. Having said which, Reading's 1950s goal machine Sammy Chung managed Doncaster Rovers from 94 to 96, which just goes to show you never can tell.

Racism and the legacy of racism is a huge problem that football has to overcome. There should be more black ex-pros being given chances to manage, and there have been high-profile cases, most obviously Paul Davies at Arsenal, where black British coaches claim to have hit a glass ceiling. Dealing with these issues is going to take time and commitment, but the first step is probably identifying where exactly the problems lie and what to do about them. Hitting the Premiership over the head right now for not having any British Asian managers is not productive. Working to get more young British Asian triallists, and ensuring that they will get a chance in the first team - that is a worthwhile project.
 
 
Peach Pie
13:43 / 02.12.04
The relative scarcity of black ex-footballers to pool managers from is one factor which explains why there are so few at management level, yes. I just suspect there are others, too.

Now, when I look at the reasons why British Asians apparently face real difficulties in playing professional football, the 'explanations' offered by many a fan are the same as black footballers faced up to the eighties - 'they can't play/kick a ball straight/can't run/have no pace'. This racism is there strong as it ever was. It's only that the basest form of it is being directed at a different ethnic minority.

Mind you, it's not as though an influx of talented British Asians into the premiership/lower divisions would solve the problem. Civil rights activists in 60's america lamented the public promotion of black people en masse only to the areas of sport and entertainment ("we don't mind a few prominent black people, but they are there to put on a show, rather than run the show").

Ultimately, I think there won't be many more black ex-players in management in 20 or 30 years time, becuase the british football establishment are largely adverse to the ideas blacks telling others what to do.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:05 / 02.12.04
Hmmm. And on what do you base that conclusion, Secret Goldfish? In 20 or 30 years time most of the people in the FA at present will be either retired or dead. 30 years ago no black player had played for Engand (1978, I believe - Viv Anderson, who is now part of the coaching setup at Midlesbrough IIRC). Likewise all but the most young lionish of football managers. You're not giving me any coherent picture of what you mean by "the British Football establishment".

The relative scarcity of black ex-footballers to pool managers from is one factor which explains why there are so few at management level, yes. I just suspect there are others, too.

I think I covered that above, although I omitted a chunk that has now been put in the modreation queue.

Now, when I look at the reasons why British Asians apparently face real difficulties in playing professional football, the 'explanations' offered by many a fan are the same as black footballers faced up to the eighties - 'they can't play/kick a ball straight/can't run/have no pace'.

I think you're getting your stereotypes mixed up. Black players were described as (a) unable to play in mud, (b) fast but tactically unaware - hence the idea that African teams could not defend, and the reason why black wingers were probably more frequently seem than black midfield generals or centre-halves - and (c) of dubious temperament. The most common argument used against British Asian footballers is that "they" lack strength. I have to ask - where are you getting this from? Your representations seem a bit schematic, if you don't mind me saying so.

This racism is there strong as it ever was. It's only that the basest form of it is being directed at a different ethnic minority.

Well, the situation for British Asians in football might be compared to the situation for Black British players in say, 1970. One difference being that there is far more pressure from anti-racist groups like Kick it Out. It would have seemed incredible 30 years ago that England would be captained by a British Asian cricketer, or that it would be a matter of time before an all-black England football team would take the field. Management is another barrier to break through, but after one truly successful black British manager (or one truly successful British Asian footballer, which is, I would venture, when rather than if (Chopra is a pretty regular fixture at England junior levels, and Singh is apparently recovering from a shoulder injury nicely also), and go from there...
 
 
Peach Pie
12:13 / 13.12.04
I don't really think the specific stereotype is important, given that they're all bullshit anyway. Haus, what reason do you have to believe that an increase of black ex-players will occupy positions of management in the future, when black people are so vastly under-represented in mangerial positions in general?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:07 / 14.12.04
Yes, but applying the *wrong* sterotype shows ignorance of the subject matter. As I warned above, it's easy to mistake the phrase "I do not like football" and "football is irreparably racist".

Now:

Haus, what reason do you have to believe that an increase of black ex-players will occupy positions of management in the future, when black people are so vastly under-represented in mangerial positions in general?

You mean in Britain? That's an interesting point, if rather a tangential one. If you mean _society_ in general makes it hard for ethnic minority applicants to succeed in certain fields, then I am very much inclined to agree. However, the job "football manager" and the job "manager" in a corporate sense have little in common except the word "manager". As such, I would say that that is not a terribly useful question - football and business have their own issues and need to be considered as separate environments. Also, changing the subject suddenly to management in the corporate sphere fals to answer:

Hmmm. And on what do you base that conclusion, Secret Goldfish? In 20 or 30 years time most of the people in the FA at present will be either retired or dead. 30 years ago no black player had played for Engand (1978, I believe - Viv Anderson, who is now part of the coaching setup at Midlesbrough IIRC). Likewise all but the most young lionish of football managers. You're not giving me any coherent picture of what you mean by "the British Football establishment".

Otherwise... well, you don't seem to be responding to very much I am saying. As I said above:

They *have* broken into management - which does not mean that there is not a definite need for attitudes to change and to keep changing in English football. There should, statistically, be more black managers. I suspect that the passing of the old guard of chairmen will help this, as will increasing numbers of highly successful and respected black ex-pros (which we are getting - the black British footballers looking for entry-level management jobs now were starting their careers in the mid-late 80s, when the number of black players at the top level was a fair chunk lower than nowadays - Everton had yet to sign a black player, which for a team that has relied so heavily on Joseph Yobo and before him Kevin Campbell to haul their arses out of the fire seems remarkable) who will be attractive, crowd-pleasing appointments at the lower levels.

Incidentally, just to show it's not all doom and gloom, might I bring to the attention of the court Zesh Rehman, former loan star of the Seagulls, who put in another appearance in the starting line-up of a Premiership club last night against Manchester United.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:55 / 15.12.04
And, in more potentially good news, it looks like Aragones is finally going to be forced to justify himself.
 
 
Peach Pie
14:56 / 16.12.04
applying the *wrong* sterotype shows ignorance of the subject matter.

Not the important subject matter, surely. If someone was vilely abusing gay people, would it be important to know that their 'justification' was that they thought they were spreading sexual immorality as opposed to some other form of bullshit rationale?

the job "football manager" and the job "manager" in a corporate sense have little in common except the word "manager"

They share a job description which involves telling others, black and white, what to do. And I'm saying on that basic level, that a lot of British society will not readily stomach having that happen.

They *have* broken into management - which does not mean that there is not a definite need for attitudes to change and to keep changing in English football. There should, statistically, be more black managers.

Technically, they've proved it's possible. But it's such a statistically tiny number, that most black players will face opposition becoming managers should they want to. There's nothing to suggest that the few who are there represent any irreversible breakthrough. It's entirely possible that there will be no black managers again in ten years' time.

Just as there was no good reason why it took a hundred years of black players playing professionally before people stopped abusing them en masse, there's no reason why the tiny advances made by black people in football management should not be reversed.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:27 / 22.12.04
I'm the master of this college,
What I don't know isn't knowledge.


I can't be bothered to engage with the idea that it doesn't matter if a critique is factually incorrect, as long as it gets the "important" stuff right - we're back to those girls being "persuaded" to dress as ponies. Beck and Call.... If you don't know something, ask, or get it wrong, then ask.

So, do you not have any thought on Zesh Rehmann? Ah well.

Meanwhile, back in the present, Richard Caborn has registered his disappointment at the punishment meted out to the Spanish FA - a 100,000 Swiss Franc (£45,000) fine and a threat that they will have to play matches behind closed doors _if it happens again_. I'm inclined to agree that this was a missed opportunity.
 
 
Peach Pie
22:22 / 23.12.04
you answered precisely none of the points I raised, so I decided to repost my last remark:

applying the *wrong* sterotype shows ignorance of the subject matter.

Not the important subject matter, surely. If someone was vilely abusing gay people, would it be important to know that their 'justification' was that they thought they were spreading sexual immorality as opposed to some other form of bullshit rationale?

the job "football manager" and the job "manager" in a corporate sense have little in common except the word "manager"

They share a job description which involves telling others, black and white, what to do. And I'm saying on that basic level, that a lot of British society will not readily stomach having that happen.

They *have* broken into management - which does not mean that there is not a definite need for attitudes to change and to keep changing in English football. There should, statistically, be more black managers.

Technically, they've proved it's possible. But it's such a statistically tiny number, that most black players will face opposition becoming managers should they want to. There's nothing to suggest that the few who are there represent any irreversible breakthrough. It's entirely possible that there will be no black managers again in ten years' time.

Just as there was no good reason why it took a hundred years of black players playing professionally before people stopped abusing them en masse, there's no reason why the tiny advances made by black people in football management should not be reversed.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
04:19 / 24.12.04
Ah, you're a troll. Fair enough. I'll get back to this when and if I can be bothered. There may be someone else reading it who might get something out of it.
 
 
Ganesh
09:43 / 24.12.04
Not the important subject matter, surely. If someone was vilely abusing gay people, would it be important to know that their 'justification' was that they thought they were spreading sexual immorality as opposed to some other form of bullshit rationale?

It would be important to me to know in what way I were being stereotyped; I'd consider this "important", at least partly because it would inform my approach for dealing with the stereotyping. If the stereotypes were derived from deeply-held religious convictions, for example, I'd handle the situation one way; if the stereotypes stemmed from media portrayals of gay people, I'd handle it another.

I don't believe all instances of stereotyping should be treated as a single homogenous mass of "bullshit rationale". It's intellectually lazy and, IMHO, does no-one any favours.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:09 / 24.12.04
Well, Ganesh seems to have addressed that quite well..

the job "football manager" and the job "manager" in a corporate sense have little in common except the word "manager"

They share a job description which involves telling others, black and white, what to do. And I'm saying on that basic level, that a lot of British society will not readily stomach having that happen.


Right. It occurs to me that you've never been a) a footballer or b) a manager. However, that doesn't really matter. You've shifted your argument from "Football is racist" to "British society is racist". That is massive threadrot, and a sign of desperation. As such, it was not worth answering. The fact that there are black people in management positions in both football and business - not enough, but that's why we need to look at this in a rational and non-screechy way - demonstrates the antic incompleteness of your position.

They *have* broken into management - which does not mean that there is not a definite need for attitudes to change and to keep changing in English football. There should, statistically, be more black managers.

Technically, they've proved it's possible.


No, they have done it. These aren't proofs of concept - they are people.

But it's such a statistically tiny number, that most black players will f1ace opposition becoming managers should they want to.

I already addressed at some length the fact that football managers are ex-pros, and the number of black players of retirement age + the time it takes to become qualified is steadily growing. Your argument makes no sense whatsoever, predictably, and as such was once again not worth answering. Bear in mind further that there are 92 teams in the League and Premiership, and as such no number more than one is "statistically tiny".


There's nothing to suggest that the few who are there represent any irreversible breakthrough. It's entirely possible that there will be no black managers again in ten years' time.

Except the steadily growing numbers of black managers, and the growing numbers of Black British players, the clearly growing numbers of chairman appointing Black British coaching staff and managers? Again, your argument makes no sense, and as such is not worth answering. You are fantasising about a world in which _society_, not football, becomes massively more racist. That's not within the scope of this discussion.

Just as there was no good reason why it took a hundred years of black players playing professionally before people stopped abusing them en masse

Define "good reason". There is no *morally convincing* reason, but there are plenty of *historically credible* reasons, involving attitudes to black people in Britain generally. This before I even ask you to substantiate your claim that "people" abused black players en masse for the last century. Generalisation and deceit are not convincing ways to argue.

there's no reason why the tiny advances made by black people in football management should not be reversed.

Basically, if you want a fantasy world in which the tiny advances of poor black people are constantly menaced by scary racist armies, and there is nothing they can possibly do about it (no reason why? How about "black managers demonstrating that they are able to compete and succeed, thus making fans and chairman accept that they are able to improve the performance of the club"?) that's fine. Go out and do something about it. Join Searchlight. Take up the white man's burden. Knock yourself out. That has nothing to do with football, and I find the way that you are seeking to infantilise black people in Britain by denying their achievements in order to maintain your fantasy frankly inexplicable.

Meanwhile, Zesh Rehmann, British-born of Pakistani descent, has established himself in the first team of Premiership Fulham. Let's take a moment to celebrate that achievement. Or, you know, you could ignore it completely because it doesn't fit in with your ill-informed argument.

Oh. You did.
 
 
Peach Pie
19:28 / 24.12.04
I don't believe all instances of stereotyping should be treated as a single homogenous mass of "bullshit rationale". It's intellectually lazy and, IMHO, does no-one any favours.

the job "football manager" and the job "manager" in a corporate sense have little in common except the word "manager"

Right. It occurs to me that you've never been a) a footballer or b) a manager.

Guilty as charged.

You've shifted your argument from "Football is racist" to "British society is racist".

Inaccurate on several counts. It's beyond doubt that football is broadly racist to have excluded black and asian people for so long.I've not dropped that notion. I suggest that there are certainly racist elements within British society. That is massive threadrot, and a sign of desperation.

The fact that there are black people in management positions in both football and business - not enough, but.... Get off your ''but''.

They *have* broken into management - which does not mean that there is not a definite need for attitudes to change and to keep changing in English football. Of course there is.

There should, statistically, be more black managers. Oh there should be many more.





Except the steadily growing numbers of black managers, and the growing numbers of Black British players, the clearly growing numbers of chairman appointing Black British coaching staff and managers? Oh but of course dear. As you said , the first black player started playing in the 1880's. And in all that time what number have the black managers in the whole of the premiership 'steadily' grown too?

Bear in mind further that there are 92 teams in the League and Premiership, and as such no number more than one is "statistically tiny". If there were only 92 managers in history, I'd probably agree. But given that most football clubs have had many different managers, I'd disagree. How many managers have there been on the history of the football league, Haus?


Anyway, Haus. I'll have to take my leave of you.
 
 
Ganesh
20:44 / 24.12.04
the job "football manager" and the job "manager" in a corporate sense have little in common except the word "manager"

I'm not sure how this is relevant to the point I've just made. If you're trying to provide a second example of intellectually lazy stereotyping, then I suppose you've succeeded.
 
 
Peach Pie
00:51 / 25.12.04
That comment was ridiculously intellectually lazy, wasn't it? Stupid and facile, no?

I have no idea why antagonism seems to lace your every word to me on this board - especially as I never had a cross word with you at crossandflame in all the months we were there, and your posts were a delight.

You appear to be making petty criticisms of my posts that you wouldn't make of those of others .

In case you hadn't worked out, that dumb point was made by Haus. I do hope you'll take it up with him.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:47 / 25.12.04
Oh dear...

SG, you have failed to understand what Ganesh has said, which is actually quite astonishing. You said:

If someone was vilely abusing gay people, would it be important to know that their 'justification' was that they thought they were spreading sexual immorality as opposed to some other form of bullshit rationale?

Ganesh, speaking possibly as a gay person, said of that:

It would be important to me to know in what way I were being stereotyped; I'd consider this "important", at least partly because it would inform my approach for dealing with the stereotyping. If the stereotypes were derived from deeply-held religious convictions, for example, I'd handle the situation one way; if the stereotypes stemmed from media portrayals of gay people, I'd handle it another.

I don't believe all instances of stereotyping should be treated as a single homogenous mass of "bullshit rationale". It's intellectually lazy and, IMHO, does no-one any favours.


Management, football or otherwise, was irrelevant, and thus your response was bewildering.
 
 
Ganesh
19:39 / 25.12.04
Dear oh dear. I'm having terrible problems making myself understood here. Let's try again.

That comment was ridiculously intellectually lazy, wasn't it? Stupid and facile, no?

I'm perfectly aware that Haus originally made the comment on the terms "manager" and "football manager" sharing relatively little in terms of definition - what I'm not getting is how that relates to the point I just made ie. that I do see it as important to differentiate between different types of stereotyping, and to avoid doing so is intellectually lazy. Let's try to remember this was/is my point - because it's in danger of getting lost in strange non-logic.

I've no idea why you quoted me in bold then answered using Haus's words. I struggled to make sense of your reply and, eventually, assumed you were attempting to say "look! another instance of intellectual laziness! that makes what I said okay!"

Two problems with this:

1) I'm inclined to believe the greater intellectual laziness lies in insisting that two concepts ("manager" and "football manager") are the same - this being, after all, the very essence of stereotyping. This is the opposite of what Haus was saying. When I said if you're trying to provide a second example of intellectually lazy stereotyping, then I suppose you've succeeded, I'm afraid I was referring to your own denial of Haus's point.

2) "Look! another instance of intellectual laziness! that makes what I said okay!" is something of a non-argument, and fails to actually engage with what I said. Even if you'd correctly identified an example of someone else being stereotypical, this has little or no bearing on my point.

I have no idea why antagonism seems to lace your every word to me on this board - especially as I never had a cross word with you at crossandflame in all the months we were there, and your posts were a delight.

Rather selective perception and memory here, I feel. I've disagreed with you more often here (different subject matter - I don't recall discussing C4 fetishism, football racism or the underpinnings of stereotyping on Cross+Flame either) but I'm certainly not "cross" with you, and I'd argue that I engage with what you're saying rather than you personally (you don't really post enough for me to know you personally).

You appear to be making petty criticisms of my posts that you wouldn't make of those of others .

I've criticised some of your posts, yes - but I don't think my criticisms have been "petty" and I don't think I've singled you out. What I think is relevant is your apparently typical response to criticism ie. quick (if rather oblique) defensiveness and, often, rudeness, rather than any real attempt to engage with the point being made (and there is always a sincere point to my criticism, even if you dismiss it as "petty").

If you have a problem with me, it might be better to take it to Private Message.

In case you hadn't worked out, that dumb point was made by Haus. I do hope you'll take it up with him.

As I say, I know you're quoting Haus. I'm baffled as to the relevance of that quote to what I said.
 
 
Peach Pie
13:34 / 26.12.04
Ganesh - please check your pm.
 
 
Peach Pie
11:15 / 27.12.04
Ganesh - it was not my intention to be rude.

Re: stereotypes - broadly I'd agree that knowledge appears to be a prime weapon for challenging them. In this case, however I'd make an exception.

With something like football, the reasons fans give why excluded minorities "can't" play are always going to be academic. The real reason they can't play is because of said fans hostilities, and the only way they are going to be able to confront a 'handicap' stereotyping is to be given their chance on the field directly, irrespective of whether they're trying to prove they can play in cold climates or whether they are trying to prove they can play in mud.
 
 
Peach Pie
11:16 / 27.12.04
I'm baffled as to the relevance of that quote to what I said.

I made an error: I had something else to say in response, but posted that by accident.
 
 
Ganesh
11:23 / 27.12.04
Okay.
 
  

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