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Well tonight thank God it's them...

 
  

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The Natural Way
12:55 / 22.11.04
I have to admit, I was feeling equally frustrated with the whole "Look money-grabbing, publicity seeking shits" thing myself. Christ, don't some of you guys realize how paranoid, misanthropic and thoughtless that position is? Why is Bono more evil than you? Yes, Robbie William's head irritates, but that's just T4 specials - on a day to day basis, I'm willing to except that, hey, y'know, he is a fucking human being and his motivations are as complex as anyone else's.

I am suspicious of charity events, but, TBH, I'm suspicious of the way many charities promote themselves generally. The disney-horror vibe that comprises the surface of many charitable organizations seems to me to encourage quite a thoughtless, passive form of giving and help construct some pretty dodgy ways of understanding difference/otherness. But I genuinely can't offer any solutions, and the money needs to be raised now.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
12:58 / 22.11.04
Warchild. Remember that? Can that be criticised in the same respect? It certainly didn't harm the reputations of those involved.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:19 / 22.11.04
See, this post is why I assumed you, for example, weren't paying Band Aid the blindest bit of attention.

That's alright. This post and the following one were why I assumed you were automatically jumping to the conclusion that anyone failing to support Band Aid must also be failing to support any other charities.
 
 
_pin
13:28 / 22.11.04
How much of a Band Aid single actually goes towards relieveing whichever situation they're setting out to relieve? Is actually buying this single really going to make a difference, compared to giving money to a charity by a more direct route, where you aren't in the process giving money to record companies, pressing factories and high street store middlemen?

On top of that, how much are we meant to be truting the judgement of the people running Band Aid? Geldof and Bono have both been open in their support for Bush and Blair, and I don't seem to remember either of them tackling the causes that we are all responsible for. We aren't mitigating the effects of just bad weather, here.

Does this sort of thing really help? Are the charitable actions of Band Aid really capable of creating a meaningful change in these peoples' situations?
 
 
Loomis
13:42 / 22.11.04
Is actually buying this single really going to make a difference, compared to giving money to a charity by a more direct route, where you aren't in the process giving money to record companies, pressing factories and high street store middlemen?

According to the rockumentary, the first time around all the studio time, pressing etc. was donated by the companies so that every penny went to charity. There was a big deal in the media about Thatcher wanting to charge VAT on it, and even a snippet of a young Mr Tony saying that the govt should waive it. Apparently the govt eventually gave the money back via a donation. Maybe everyone already knows all this but it was news to me, living under a rock as I do.

I don't know whether all the facilities were donated this time around.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:23 / 22.11.04
Why is Bono more evil than you?

This is a joke question, right?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:29 / 22.11.04
Actually I should explain why I think that's a joke question. Last year the government cut aid in order to fund the war in Iraq, Bono spoke at the party conference. It's disgraceful that this single needs to be made to raise money in the first place, it seems to me that the lead singer of U2 has very different opinions as to what's acceptable, what a government should do. Politically he's a twat and that doesn't begin or end with Band Aid.
 
 
The Falcon
16:57 / 22.11.04
He also compared Blair et Brown to Lennon and McCartney.

Whatever that was supposed to mean.

I don't really care for the Beatles either...
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
20:40 / 22.11.04
Spatula: This post and the following one were why I assumed you were automatically jumping to the conclusion that anyone failing to support Band Aid must also be failing to support any other charities.

Yeah, fair point.

Anna: Bono may be a bigmouthed political goof, and he may have compromised a few things in doing what he's done - but he's also done a hell of a lot to promote issues, charities etc tha might not have gotten anywhere without his rock star mug and rent-a-mouth providing the ultraceleb factor. So it's a little more complicated than that, I'm thinking.

And I quote from the BBC's article on his Labour conference speech this year:

"It's not about charity it's about justice," he said, reminding delegates of the thousands dying in Africa for the lack of medicines available in high street chemists in the UK.

"Africa makes a fool of our idea of justice; it makes a farce of our idea of equality. It mocks our pieties, it doubts our concern, it questions our commitment.

"Because there's no way we can look at Africa - a continent bursting into flames - and if we're honest conclude that it would ever be allowed to happen anywhere else.

"Anywhere else. Certainly not here. In Europe. Or America. Or Australia, or Canada. There's just no chance. You see, deep down, if we really accepted that Africans were equal to us, we would all do more to put the fire out. We've got watering cans; when what we really need are the fire brigades."

His speech focused on the work of his Debt, Aids, Trade Africa (Data) organisation as well as his backing for a campaign called Make Poverty History.

Bono is the latest in a string of high-profile speakers from around the world to address the annual gathering in recent years, following on from Nelson Mandela, Bill Clinton and Afghanistan president Hamid Karzai.

The singer has been a long-time campaigner on the need to fight the spectre of Aids in Africa and recently spoke at both the Republican and Democrat party conventions in the US.

He has also been instrumental in the Drop The Debt campaign, which wiped out millions of pounds of international debt owed by Third World governments.


Now, millions ain't much, but it's something. People may see him as having prostituted himself to achieve what he has, and people may think that he's just doing it to look big on a world stage. The former's open for debate, the latter is just childish. I agree that the Lennon/McCartney gag was really badly delivered in the speech, but there are definite parallels between Blair/Brown and Lennon/McCartney.

And come on, the man's not evil...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:30 / 27.11.04
Band Aid Dilemma. You want this record to succeed, because you feel for the plight of the refugees in the Dharfur region of Sudan and this project is funding aid projects on their behalf. However, you hate this recording and feel your musical ego looming and refusing to be bruised.
The answer?

Buy as many copies of Do They Know It's Christmas by Band Aid 20 as you can afford. It will be released on Monday 29 November.
Destroy them in amusing ways, on camera.
Send us the pictures.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:17 / 28.11.04
it's a little more complicated than that, I'm thinking.

Hey, I didn't say he'd never done anything good, I said he was more evil than me. Which would definitely be true if evil meant naive and dense.

Sure Bono's raised a lot of money but he also believes in charity, he thinks charity is not simply good but also right. He says "It's not about charity it's about justice"

Well I totally disagree with him because I think charity is a rich man's excuse for capitalism. Charity is voluntary thus we should not need charity in this world, we should all be made to give to those poorer than us and I think it's a shame that Bono with all of that money he's made believes in charity and not in redistribution of wealth.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:37 / 28.11.04
...or, as some would call it, "tyrrany."
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:09 / 28.11.04
Well, I'd say "tyranny", but, y'know...

People may see him as having prostituted himself to achieve what he has

It's not so much his prostituing himself I have problems with... yes, there's millions in aid coming from this, but FUCK! FUCK! FUCK!

The guy's giving credibility (and fucking SUPPORT!!! ferfucksakes) to a government which is contributing to a situation (ie 3rd world poverty) in which those millions are being devalued to a ridiculous extent. I have no doubt that his motives are true... but the last time Bono lived on the same planet as everyone else was...
...actually, yeah. About twenty years ago.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:44 / 28.11.04
Actually, Jack F, I'll retract my comment aimed at you- 'twas merely drunken pedantry, and as such probably counter-productive. Sorry.

However, what you refer to as tyranny is something I didn't get from Anna de L's post... I could be (and probably am) wrong here, but I was thinking of something more along the lines of fair taxation and the utilisation thereof...

However, I'll return to this thread when I'm not drunk. I may well be missing several points, and have already been an arse once tonight.
 
 
Jack Fear
20:24 / 28.11.04
Y'know, I knew it looked funny as I was typing it...

But I think that taking Bono to task for failing to support the overthrow of capitalism and forced redistribution of wealth is as counterproductive as condemning him for failing to come out in favor of, I dunno, abolition of the US Electoral College. Both may be good ideas (note the qualifier), but both are pretty far outside the mainstream of political discourse.

And that's the thing about pop music: it tends to be, y'know, popular. Populist. Of the people. As in, it generally has very little truck with economic theory.

There's also an argument to be made about the value of free will and compassion, but I'm not sure I'm coherent enough to frame it properly right now. (Also, I suspect that it is an argument that Anna would not accept as valid, since it's less a pragmatic economic than a spiritual one. C'est la guerre.)
 
 
_pin
08:08 / 29.11.04
Again, I have to ask; how much good, outside of getting the issue into the face of people, is buying this single going to be?

We can tsit here and debate the two sides of the warm fuzzy feeling in my tummy story, but that doesn't mean that buying this single is going to mean squat to a single African child.

This way may well be better for my eternal soul. This way may well reduce my (parent's, honestly) tax bill. But this way nmay also just be pissing all the money away if it isn't actually going to change a thing. However pure the motives of charity are (and I agree with jack here, they can be very good indeed), I fail to see how, if there's a better system, even if it involves sorting out trade rules to suspend 'free trade' whereby everything in Africa gets bought up and then not really sold back to them because it's too expensive for them to actually buy, and whereby they are paid in no way a fair price for anything, at all ever, we should go for that system instead.

I don't even see how that is either A: incompatible with the charity drive or B: non-populist. Itnernational trade laws are both fantastically outside most people's day-to-day frames of referance, as well as being largely incompatible with what people outstand as 'populist economic policy.'
 
 
Jack Fear
10:27 / 29.11.04
Oh, I entirely agree that it's absolutely a both/and; but Anna appeared to me (and do correct if I'm wrong) characterizing it as an either/or.

Looking at the paragraph

...charity is a rich man's excuse for capitalism. Charity is voluntary thus we should not need charity in this world, we should all be made to give to those poorer than us and I think it's a shame that Bono with all of that money he's made believes in charity and not in redistribution of wealth

doesn't seem to leave much room for argument.

(This may be because I have a gut feeling that when Anna says "redistribution of wealth," she's talking about a solution more sweeping than a tweaking of the progressive income tax system. I also have a sneaking suspicion that the words "against," "wall," and "motherfuckers" may play a part in that solution. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.)

But while we're arguing the merits of a mixed economy vs. Chinese-style Marxism, kids are dying. While we're fomenting revolution, smashing the State, and sneering that buying into the very notion of "charity" is propping up a corrupt capitalist system, kids are dying.

So isn't it conceivable that Bono thinks it more pragmatic, more practical, to do what he can within the limits of the System as it exists while working to change it (within his limitations) rather than putting all his eggs in the basket of its overthrow? Yes, yes, I know, Everything will be Better when the Revolution comes... but, y'know, Wish in one hand, shit in the other, and see which one fills up first, as my old granny never said. Better instead to start where you are, with what you have, no?

And I think choice does matter: I think free will does matter. Even if what you are being forced or i>made to do is unquestionably the Right Thing, there is something in the human spirit that bristles at compulsion.

I spent part of last night looking for the article online, but no luck—but in 1992 or 1993, Richard Sullivan wrote a profile of the Ben & Jerry's ice cream company for Rolling Stone. Ben & Jerry's was/is (far more at the time the article was written than now) at the forefront of so-called "caring capitalism"—a comparatively large amount of its pre-tax profits go to a variety of charitable foundations and organizations, it had a fair-wage proportional policy, et cetera. A pretty good place for a liberal/socially conscious person to work, you'd think.

Now, here's where I'm fuzzy on the details—there was some condition of employment that employees either volunteered time or donated a portion of their paycheck to a worthycause. But here's the kicker: it had to be a pre-approved worthy cause, from the Official Corporate Worthy Cause List.

And some of the employees, perhaps surprisingly, got kind of pissed off about that. But not because they were uncharitable: in fact, quite the opposite—they had their own Causes,which were not included on the Corporate List, meaning that the Company had presumably deemed those Causes to be un-Worthy. And some employees felt that they should be free to decide for themselves what causes were Worthy and not—not that they felt that the Causes on the Official List were un-Worthy, mind you, but because they preferred to make such decisions themselves, in the manner of adults.

Of course, in the abstract, they were still free to do so. But their decisions would not be supported (financially or morally) by the Company, which had proclaimed itself in the vanguard of building a Finer World, and would have to be made over and abov the mandatory donations stipulated by the Company, to Causes approved by the Company.

So, yeah. Funny thing. People like to be part of a Cause, sure, but there are ways to do it that don't infantilize them.
 
 
haus of fraser
11:54 / 29.11.04
Again, I have to ask; how much good, outside of getting the issue into the face of people, is buying this single going to be?

I think that Jack has raised most of the points pretty well in that while we can hope and dream for a revolution then its still a little way off- and while we should be helping out those less fortunate than oneself it doesn't help if we are told these people need our help but these don't- how many charitys that I/ You/ we consider worthy wouldn't be by Daily Mail reading knee jerk middle Britain- where would Asylum Seekers aid fall, AIDS Charitys and Palestinian causes fall?

On an interesting aside Lifeboats are 100% charity ran- all crew are volunteers. I once spoke to a lifeboat crewman about this who told me that they didn't want to be reliant on Govt handouts/ pay disputes/ fincial cutbacks etc. He felt (and i got the impression was a general view) that they worked better as a charity- nobody was on a lifeboat for pay and nobody could hold that over them- interesting point but leading a bit off topic..

Much as if we don't want the record cos we think all the people involved are a bunch of smug wankers- they have succeded in raising awareness to issues that they wouldn't normally do. Much as I admire Jacks charitible contributions I sadly don't donate anywhere near enough money to charity - and for my own sins then maybe something being publicised like this does raise our awareness- as Gumbit suggested if you don't want the record donate 3 quid to the charity you want to- an extra 3 quid that WILL help someone!

Yes I think the records pretty awful and much of the smug celeb shit justin vs bono is horrible- but we are all now discussing charity and the ethics of it- and whether any of us buy the record or not- we will all at least think about charity and making a donation to a worthy cause (at least i know I am) , and in this case it has done some good.

In the instance of fair trade vs charity relief- sometimes we need both- the funds from something like band aid/ comic relief etc can go a long way in helping set up a scheme, water purification, etc. I simply don't think you can say 'oh it won't do any good' In terms of short term fixes medicines and food cost money- if the money from a crappy record can save one life via a vacination/ clean water supply then it ain't that bad even if those involved have their own agenda.

On a lighter note as well as the awful Dizzee section I can't believe nobody else has noticed Justins guitar solo goes in and out of tune?
 
 
Jack Fear
12:17 / 29.11.04
SIX-STRINGER IN "A = ± 440" SHOCKER
 
 
_pin
12:56 / 29.11.04
I have a horrible feeling that I've caused myself to look as if I said all charity was bad, even short term.

My issue is with Band Aid, and the people who are all about buying a load of these things to help charity, and the fact that Bono and Geldof do seem to have been a bit too willing to work within the current system, to the point of applauding Bush's unhelpful money-giving schemes, which are surely worse then infantalising tax-payers, in that they constain that actions of those who do, probably, know what is needed to help.

There are bad charities, and much feeling is that, not because Thom Yorke painoes-out on this record, or that Chris martin is there with his rubbish new hair, but because the two men involved are so keen to maximise the amount of time they spend in important circles 'influencing' debate, that they may well have simply stopped influencing all together. We can call this the "putting David Blunkett in charge of the Home Office to get more Tories to vote for us" approach.

And I am very sorry, Jack Fear. I have been unattentive for a while now, and had largely imagined you to have shifted to possitions you haven't, but that were much more either/or then yours actually are, apparently. Sorry.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:42 / 30.11.04
Yeah, 'cos characterising "redistribution of wealth = tyranny" is in no way rank stinking doublespeak on a par with "war = peace" and "2+2=5" or in any way indicative of a slide into being the acceptable face of capitalist apologism (wherein anyone who suggests addressing the bigger picture is depicted as either a dangerous Red or a foolish dreamer).
 
 
Jack Fear
11:37 / 30.11.04
See, I think that, at heart, we agree far more than we disagree. But why is it such heresy to point out what is surely self-evident—that forced redistribution of wealth manifestly means less freedom of choice for the individual? That's not an apology for capitalism, that's stone cold truth.

The sticking point, though, comes with whether you feel that personal liberty vs. social justice is an acceptable trade-off. For what it's worth, I think it is—up to a point.

Where we differ, I think, is exactly where that point lies. All of us who pay taxes live under a certain degree of tyranny—let's call a spade a spade. How much are you willing to settle for—or put up with? How much control over your income are you willing to cede, and to whom?

These are basic questions in any redistribution scheme. If you really believe in the cause, you've got to have answers—it won't cut it to simply get huffy and start calling people names.

Also for what it's worth, I do think that strict binary thinking—i.e., a doctrinaire either/or approach—is unhelpful. The syncretic approach—the both/and—does not preclude looking at the "bigger problem," except inasmuch as doing so affects your capacity to effect change within the system as it now exists.

The rest of it I said mostly because I knew it would get a rise out of you.

 
 
modern maenad
12:04 / 30.11.04
This thread has inspired me to revisit the Chumbawamba single 'How to get your band on television' from the Album 'Picures of Starving Children Sell Records'. I know they're been highly discredited of late, but the lyrics still hold true:

Product sells, People die
Same manipulation wrapped in lies
Give a little money and play your rock and roll
The biggest prizes to the biggest fools
In keeping with the fashion for charity, not change
Here's our contribution: we've called it Slag Aid
For every pop star that we slag off today
A million pounds will be given away!
Paul McCarney - Come on Down!
With crocodile tears to irrigate this ground
Make of Ethiopia a fertile paradise
Where everyone sings Beatles songs and buys shares in EMI
Freddie Mercury - This is Your Life!
Thank the Lord that you were born white
And thank apartheid for this wonderful opportunity
To peddle your hypocrisy in Sun City
David Bowie - The Price is Right!
A suitful of compassion and a gobful of shite
Still the voices of those who doubt
Coca-Cola for the peasants to end this drought
Jagger and Richards - Game for a Laugh!
Dancing us down the garden path
To a place where money grows on trees
Where cocaine habits are financed by hunger and disease
Ask the puppet-masters who pull the strings
"Who makes the money when the puppets sing?"
Ask the corporations "Where does the money go?"
Ask the empty bellied children "What are we singing for?"
A Cliff Richard - 3,2,1!
The God who remains when the religion's gone
Cliff, we've got a special surprise for you today
So come closer, step this way
Cliff, you're such an example of moral worth
Such a purist saint come to bless our Earth
That on behalf of our viewers watching telly
And on behalf of the millions with empty bellies
We're donating something special that we're all going to like:
Cliff Richard, we're going to nail you up to a cross tonight!!
I know there must be more
Than giving just a little bit more
When half of this world is so helplessly poor
Starved of a real solution -
Only charity and tradition
And the cycle of hungry children
Will keep on going round...
 
 
_Boboss
12:17 / 30.11.04
and while we;re here i'd like to add:

'e drinky lager drink, e drinky cider drink, e drinky vodka drink, e drinky whisky drink.'

greatest lyrics of all time. many's the day i thank chumbawumba for inventing this whole glorious idea we call 'anarchy'.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:27 / 30.11.04
How did Chumbawamba get "discredited"?

Oh, that's right: they had a hit.
How dare they! Cheeky bastards.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
13:24 / 30.11.04
That and they were/are godawful.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:28 / 30.11.04
I think it was a combination of becoming progressively more shit and signing to EMI, thus alienating the Conflict fans who until then had been very forgiving and bolstered their fan base to a quite surprising degree.

"Pictures of Starving Children Sell Records" is still a fucking wicked album, though.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:31 / 30.11.04
Chumbawumba are surely the other side of Bono's shit coin: proof that shouty anarchist types can be just as annoying as moderate quasi-liberals if a) they're very stupid, b) their music fucking sucks, or c) they're very stupid and their music fucking sucks. Actually, that's very, very unfair on Bono, since U2 have produced a lot of great song and one fantastic album over the years, whereas Chumbawumba have [more antagonistic statement removed]... not. And yes, I've heard their old stuff. God help me.

But why is it such heresy to point out what is surely self-evident—that forced redistribution of wealth manifestly means less freedom of choice for the individual?

But nobody mentioned 'forced' anything, Jack. Opposing the principle of redistribution of wealth by conflating it with the practice of the same by violent means (and thus suggesting that it can only manifest itself as such) is Second Spin-ism of the worst kind, and that's not name-calling: just "stone cold truth".
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:34 / 30.11.04
As for "I was only trying to get a rise out of you..." - well, that's what my crazy old mum likes to say after she's made some remark about gays or abortionists or Muslims, and what I always ask in return is "So does that mean you don't actually think that?" We need to be clear on this, for future reference.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:23 / 30.11.04
See, I never said anything about violent means; and I've a feeling you're being purposely obtuse so as to avoid answering the charges. But, damn your eyes, I will not be your straw man: I have my dignity, sir.

"Forced" in this sense does not necessarily mean "accomplished by the force of arms," but simply (in Anna De's words) being made to do something, most often by the force of law—i.e., by making something mandatory or compulsory. Taxation of income—not coincidentally, the very example I used—is a forced redistribution of wealth: it is compulsory, and noncompliance carries with it the threat of imprisonment and seizure of property.

So I do not "oppose the principle of redistribution of wealth." I pay my taxes, and thereby participate in the redistribution of wealth.

I am compelled by law to do so, but I do so gladly because I can see the positive results of this redistribution all around me. I have happily surrendered some of my individual rights for the common good.

How much more would I give? How much more would you? How much would you ask of me, were I unwilling to give it? These are the questions that interest me.

(As for the other stuff, specifically the up-against-the-wall-motherfuckers bit... well, I was half-joking. Which means I was half-serious. Because while we're being honest, ask yourself this: would you personally be unhappy if a few parasitic greedhead dirtbags took one to the head for the sake of a just and lasting economic reform?)

(I won't presume to answer for you.)
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
20:36 / 30.11.04
I think Mr Fear's right in the sense that redistribution of wealth always involves those with it being made to pass it to those without. Anna, I think, is proceeding on the basis that a capitalist system is inherently opposed to redistribution of wealth on any long term basis - like pasting sticking plasters on a festering wound. To some extent I agree with this - charity is only ever going to be a short term solution if the underlying problems are not and cannot be rectified given the system it's operating within. Seems to be that the socialist dream is where the state and the individual cooperate to change the entire way in which wealth is doled out in the first place, in the process actually rendering the concept of 'wealth' redundant - no one is wealthy, everyone has sufficient. You, know, like communism. In practice, it's arguable whether this is and can be anything more than a utopian fantasy for the socially responsible - it's the old socialist's saw that jokes that communism is a great idea that's never actually been tried.
 
 
Ganesh
00:03 / 01.12.04
Does anyone ever say anything even remotely along the lines of "I'll have a lager drink, please" or were Chumbawamba talking out of their collective wholegrain arse?
 
 
_Boboss
08:16 / 01.12.04
you don't know your mum well enough to tell when she's joking? right barrel of 'em in your house i bet.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:11 / 01.12.04
Incidentally, there's an ongoing thread in the Head Shop about privilege, and now about the redistribution of wealth, here, which would almost certainly appreciate the input...
 
  

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