BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Belief vs. Individual Choice

 
 
Sekhmet
15:03 / 20.10.04
I'm trying to wrap my brain around the question of faith and personal responsibility. Is devotion to a particular ethos, philosophy, pantheon, or spiritual entity simply a problem-solving method for dealing with the Big Questions of ethics and individual purpose vis-a-vis the rest of mankind? When a person aligns with a deity or with a philosophy, do they give up their individual will in exchange for the convenience of having someone or something else dictate appropriate modes of belief and behavior?

It seems to me that I observe this phenomenon among segments of the faithful of major religions; the institution, clergy, and/or the holy book tell the faithful what to believe and how to live their lives: why and how they were created, what they should strive for, what they should avoid, how they should treat other people, how they should approach spirituality, what to wear and what not to wear, what to eat and what not to eat, when to pray, how to pray, what offerings to make, which people are enemies and which are allies, etc.

Does adherence to ANY belief system, spiritual or secular, limit our power as individuals to choose how to act? More to the point, is the true aim of religion to relieve individuals of the personal responsibility for making those choices? Or, on the obverse of that coin, is the aim of religion to divest individuals of the power to do so?


(I'm sure there are assumptions implicit in these questions that can be shot full of holes; I'm honestly trying to sort this out and I won't take it personally. Fire away!)
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
17:29 / 20.10.04
Belief systems define choice. Even the decision to avoid belief in favour of models and hypotheses can be seen as deriving from the belief that rationality is a superior method of dealing with with the world - itself not 'necessary' in the philosophical sense. Whatever you term the perceptions you use to order the sense data which bombard you, the structures you generate are what generate your ability to choose.
 
 
Sekhmet
18:06 / 20.10.04
Given that, what are the implications of adopting a belief structure not generated by you, but by someone else? Not excluding rationalism, atheism, agnosticism, or any other philosophy.

Additionally, is there any alternative? Does every human being necessarily have a belief system, whether acknowledged or not?
 
 
HCE
19:04 / 20.10.04
Lots of different questions here.

When a person aligns with a deity or with a philosophy, do they give up their individual will in exchange for the convenience of having someone or something else dictate appropriate modes of belief and behavior?

What kind of alignment do you mean? I think there's a significant gap between beliefs you profess to others, what you think you believe, and what behaviors you manifest. And how would taking responsibility for your beliefs and behaviors manifest itself?

I don't agree with what I think Celibate Mink is getting at -- I think behavior is driven much more by impulse and habit than by an underlying system of belief, unless we're talking about what we believe we've seen others do a million times. Even among the professedly deeply religious, actions don't always match up so well with the tenets of belief.

I suppose that in my own life, my power to act is limited by social obligations more than my belief system. Maybe you could give an example?
 
 
Sekhmet
19:46 / 20.10.04
Good point.

As a specific instance, consider a real person: my boss. He is a middle-aged registered Republican and a Protestant Christian, who donates money to churches and missionary organizations. He believes homeosexuality and abortion and liberalism and non-Christianity are all wrong, un-American, and against the will of God.

He will probably never consider that he might be wrong about any of these assumptions, because he believes in an ethos which has told him that this is the Truth. Therefore, he need bear no personal responsibility for weighing contrary facts or considering alternatives, or feel much need to be sensitive to others' feelings or thoughts on these subjects. The fact that he has been unequivocally told by a higher power what to think about these issues has relieved him of the need to consider them.

His freedom from the need to apply critical thought in these areas also amounts to a loss of freedom. Within his belief system he cannot budge from or question these convictions.

I would imagine it's somewhat of a relief to be told what to think rather than having to do it for yourself. Less to worry about. You have the answers to many of life's questions handed to you and you no longer have to bother about them.

My basic question is: is that the real point of belief?
 
 
HCE
23:11 / 20.10.04
I hesitate to say yes to that, though some snarky part of me would like to. I do know people who have a very vibrant sort of religious belief, one where faith is not a given, but something they think through. I would even say that a particular friend of mine finds that his religious beliefs (he is Catholic) are sometimes at odds with his conscience, and this causes him no small amount of trouble.
 
 
Loomis
12:01 / 21.10.04
I think there's a good argument for the opposite view, that (many) people choose their religion in order to gain sociological/theological backing for beliefs they already hold. In fact you could even argue (and no doubt someone already has) that a lot of philosophy works backward from the conclusion, being an attempt to explain something that the writer already believes to be the case, rather than considering the world logically and coming to a surprise conclusion.

I don't think it's (always) a case of religious people becoming conservative because that's what their religion tells them, but rather naturally conservative people choosing a religion because it confoms with their own beliefs, and gives them a weighty guarantor that they can then use to avoid having to justify those beliefs.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:39 / 21.10.04
The relationship between individual and religion has received quite a bit of attention. Two books worthy of note in this respect are Robert Wuthnow's "After heaven" and WC Roof's "Spiritual marketplace". Wuthnow, for example, asserts that religion in the USA has shifted from a "spirituality of dwelling" (where spiritual experience primarily situated within a congregation or a geographical location) towards a "spirituality of seeking" where individuals create identities by negotiating amongst a wide range of materials. Roof also provides some pointers on the relationship between individual and social institution by using the phrase "lived religion" - which has 3 central features: scripts, practices, and agency. Scripts can be either affirming, negating or neutral and come from a variety of cultural sources. So Roof says that spirituality is never entirely an individual issue as it is shaped by one's surrounding influences. Practices, he says, are rooted in community, and link individuals (if only tenuously) to that community, reinforcing scripts. As for the third factor, agency, Roof argues that people selectively engage scripts and choices and reflect on themselves as "meaning-making creatures" and in so doing, create new spaces for interiorising and authenticating their own affirmations. So rather than seeing religion as a 'rule book', Roof sees religion as a resource - to be used when expedient and ignored or rewritten when it is not.
 
 
HCE
14:52 / 21.10.04
One kind of trouble with broadly-phrased questions like this is that group it concerns, People, or even the somewhat smaller Religious People, is so diverse that it's difficult to say anything without putting in tons of qualifiers. Would it be useful to perhaps take a smaller group, People Who Use Religion As A Justification For What Serves Their Interests, and try to think about what it is about religion (as opposed to economics or politics or psychology, maybe) that makes it their tool of choice? Or is this getting very far away from your original question?
 
 
Sekhmet
17:49 / 21.10.04
I apologize if my formulation seems vague; it's probably because I'm not sure how to articulate what I'm wondering about.

My questions arise from observing people who have belief, whether in a religion, philosophy, political theory, or ethical system. Many people who have what could be described as a belief system seem to filter all incoming information through that system, and it seems in many cases to make it far easier for them to make decisions about things. When my militant libertarian friend is shown information from a mainstream media source, he automatically dismisses it as biased. When my optimistic centrist friend is confronted with evidence of a government conspiracy, he refuses to acknowledge it. When my fundamentalist Christian boss hears about missionary work being done in a Buddhist nation, he automatically approves. None of these people actually think about the issue, they simply react based on their belief systems. They don't have to deal with the intricacies and stresses of considering these enormously complicated issues, because their belief systems provide them with packaged answers.

Granted that people do tend to adopt religions and philosophies based on biases they already have, and use them to justify their points of view, as Loomis and nightclub dwight pointed out. My feeling is that this is perhaps a method of shirking responsibility for justifying your own opinions; a bit of a cop-out, if you will.

There are also those who are raised in a particular belief system rather than choosing one for themselves, who never seem to take the alienating and frightening step of questioning that system.

(Note that I'm specifically trying not to distingush religious belief from philosophy, politics, or ethics, because I don't really see a distinction. That point may be arguable.)

The questions I've posed on this subject are, I suppose, wild stabs at trying to determine the benefit of belief. I wasn't raised in any particular belief system, religious or otherwise, and throughout my life I've had difficulty defining any fixed beliefs. I continually question and worry and puzzle and ponder, which is often exhausting, confusing, and alienating. I can see the allure of clothing oneself in the armor of faith, to defend against the assault of doubt and uncertainty. However, this armor also restricts movement, and makes it difficult to see anything but a narrow view.

I guess what I'm trying to find out is whether I'm wrong in my impression that faith amounts to a Faustian exchange of freedom of thought and will for a degree of existential ease and security.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:28 / 22.10.04
Sekhmet: Additionally, is there any alternative? Does every human being necessarily have a belief system, whether acknowledged or not?

Probably. You can't interact with the world without one, be it ever so reduced, so anyone who doesn't have one is presumably not sane, almost by definition.

dwight: I don't agree with what I think Celibate Mink is getting at -- I think behavior is driven much more by impulse and habit than by an underlying system of belief, unless we're talking about what we believe we've seen others do a million times.

That would be what Weber would have called irrational behaviour - tradition, habit, reaction, un-reasoned behaviour of any kind. Those habits and so on are predicated on assumptions which make up a belief system. That you're not consulting it all the time doesn't mean it isn't there.

Even among the professedly deeply religious, actions don't always match up so well with the tenets of belief.

That doesn't affect my point, really. You can't deal with the world without beliefs - for example, one which might be rendered verbally as "all objects I perceive as solid will behave as solid, except in cases where my perception is awry" is common to most humans. That people do not always act in accordance with systems of morality and religion they profess to believe in displays the difference between belief and faith. And even then, under stress, people will act against the logical dictates of what they genuinely accept as truth: someone at the top of a burning building may well jump from it, despite the high chance this will not help.

Sekhmet: My basic question is: is that the real point of belief?

Interesting that you should look at it in terms of instrumental reason. Not everything has a point beyond itself. However, religious and ethical constructs govern willed behaviour, and ontological and epiostemological belief systems at a basic level define the world an individual inhabits.

I guess what I'm trying to find out is whether I'm wrong in my impression that faith amounts to a Faustian exchange of freedom of thought and will for a degree of existential ease and security.

Up to a point, no: faith in the sense of the adoption of a cosmology without personal knowledge (and let's consider for a moment what 'knowledge' is - 'justified true belief'? the confluence of Sense and Reference achieved by observation and cogitation?) is necessary for free thought, otherwise everyone will have to start from 'cogito, ergo sum' and work up - not a simple task for a single lifetime. Faith in the sense of dogma however, restricts thought in one direction, though it may in doing so open others.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:41 / 22.10.04
Over the last five years or so, I've veered from identifying as a chaos magician – with all of its attendant theories around maintaining fluidity of belief, approaching belief as a working tool, regular paradigm shifting to maintain independence from dogmatic beliefs, etc – to my current position of identifying as a follower of a religion.

I find my current model of reality far more rewarding, fulfilling and transformative both in my everyday life and in terms of the magical practices I engage with, than the previous model I subscribed to. I arrived at this perspective having experimented with adopting several beliefs until one of them clicked massively, and it became apparent that I could get a lot more out of total engagement with this one perspective than I could from maintaining the fly-by-night approach of juggling multiple perspectives.

I didn't find this transition easy, as it went against many of the core principles of chaos magic I had filled my head with over the preceding years, and which I had quite a strong attachment to and investment in. This conflict was in itself paradoxical, as my resistance seemed to be coming from a dogmatic attitude about trying to avoid anything that could be considered a dogmatic attitude. Over the course of a few years, I eventually faced up to the likelihood that what I was actually afraid of was commitment to something, and decided to fully embrace the religious aspects of what I was doing.

I found it incredibly liberating and empowering, and I discovered that the word "religion" does not automatically have to imply an imposed belief system, or a complete dictated system of instruction that discourages individual thought. Quite far from it.

Granted, the religion that I came to follow does not have a central text like the Bible or the Koran, it isn't a religion of the book, it doesnt have a centralised priesthood, or organised heirarchical structure, such as the major organised religions of the world. But it is a religion, and if you consider all of its sister religions and offshoots under the same umbrella, it probably counts as a major world religion.

Interestingly, many of its followers refer to it as "The Religion", which has always amused me because it seems to imply that there is only really one "Religion" (with a capital R) in the world. Only one God, one set of Spirits, one reality. All the multiple conflicting world religions (with a small r) are considered reflections of this central religious impulse. All that really differs is that they tend to call things by different names, and place a differing emphasis on certain points due to cultural and socio-geographical factors.

In this sense, the word religion does not mean the act of abiding by the differing creeds, dogmas and systems of instruction written down in a book or dictated by the priesthood, but the actual day-to-day process of personal engagement with spirituality through religious practice.

That's how I've personally come to define the word religion, and how I've come to reconcile some of the issues that seem to be raised in this thread myself. I have a relationship with various Gods and Spirits which is religious in tone and practice, I filter all information recieved through my senses through the lens of that religion, I live my life according to it. It is however a dynamic living religion that is constantly developing and being redefined on a day-to-day basis. The Gods I speak to are thought of and interacted with as Living Gods, and my relationship with them is very much a two-way process. Religion does not automatically imply subservience to something greater than yourself, it can mean an integrative co-operative mutually supportive relationship with something greater than yourself.

Additionally, my religious beliefs tend to be both inclusive and open to further syncretism, so that I do not approach other religions as somehow competing or contradictory to how I look at things, but something that will help me better understand religion as a universal concept. I try to focus on the similarities and find common ground, rather than dwelling on the differences in written dogma - which are often determined by cultural factors specific to the period in which those texts were written down, rather reflective of some universal truth. My religion does not give me easy answers to anything, but provides a context for seeking to understand more about the mysteries of reality, consciousness, spirituality and the day-to-day events of my life. This context is, more than anything, a solid starting point from which to explore these areas and is constantly being broadened, modified and enriched as it is exposed to new information, new experiences and new perspectives.

The word 'religion' can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. To right wing neoconservatives etc... the Bible might well be a conveniant instruction manual that can lend some level of divine authority to something they already believe in. But it probably means something completely different to, say, a 12th century monk, or a Haitian Mambo who considers herself as much a Catholic as much as she is a Voudoisant, or presumably to the various people that wrote the text in the first place.
 
 
Sekhmet
15:02 / 22.10.04
As per usual, Gypsy Lantern does an impressive job of articulating the issues at which I'm merely gesticulating... If faith or belief can indeed be held without becoming encrusted in dogma, that solves my personal dilemma rather neatly.

However, it still leaves the problem of those who do adhere to dogma and who use their faith as armor - not only that, sadly, but also as weaponry.

Mink, very good points about the necessity of belief in daily interaction. The most commonly held beliefs - such as that one exists as an individual, that objects are solid, and that time moves forward - are articles of faith for almost everyone, outside of a few magicians, monks, and quantum physicists.

... faith in the sense of the adoption of a cosmology without personal knowledge... is necessary for free thought, otherwise everyone will have to start from 'cogito, ergo sum' and work up - not a simple task for a single lifetime.

Certainly, it would be a lifelong undertaking. Does that necessarily justify the assumption of truth outside personal experience? Why should one take on faith any tenets that haven't been verified by personal observation or experimentation?

If the answer is "because otherwise it's too hard", that would seem to verify my original hypothesis...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:05 / 22.10.04
Does that necessarily justify the assumption of truth outside personal experience? Why should one take on faith any tenets that haven't been verified by personal observation or experimentation?

At some point, you will end up with 'best available information', whatever field you pursue. Some questions are and will remain open. So, while it doesn't justify the assumption of truth, it certainly justifies taking your eye off one issue to focus on another.
 
 
astrojax69
20:08 / 01.11.04
there is a tangential tenet to this thread, if i may? [though it typifies why i love coming browsing and now and again chattering into... : ) ]

the initial question also implicitly discussed the hold of a belief over the believer; the extent to which the believer inversely divested that personal power into the belief. the giving up of freedom, so to speak.

so the question arises, how can your set of beliefs, your ethic, instruct but not always compel blindly, your behaviour? i guess, how flexible can you be in your beliefs? some people seem reluctant to question some parts of their belief systems (your boss's on homosexuality et al) and other people may refuse to ever question other aspects, such as quantum physics and electromagnetic radiation, or free will itself.

if you are seeking advice, i would suggest that the breadth of religions and religious doctrines you survey grow. many eastern philosophies, for instance, suggest a more holistic, questioning approach to morality and the nature of the world, while, yes, indeed chrtistianity and moslem - the latter perhaps fundamentally moreso - proscibe a structure and methodology for the society in which people live. this becomes like wallpaper to life and can be difficult to question. so how strongly do you want hold any belief about anything, if there may be eveidence to the contrary?

respect truth, seek it. good luck.
 
  
Add Your Reply