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Ban This Filth

 
  

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Peach Pie
10:20 / 16.10.04
A programme called 'Ban this Filth' started on Channel 4 this week, in basically the same format as Eurotrash. Reportages included a pair of swingers doing their thing, and 'pony fetishing'. In this, an old man persuaded naked girls to dress up in halters and swing their heads around like horses. They were at his beck and call.

What did other people make of it?
 
 
Warewullf
12:10 / 16.10.04
Bleh. Like "Shock Video" but without Adam and Joe's voice-over (which was the only reason to watch. Well, that and the nudity, natch.)

It just doesn't work as well as Shock Video, or Eurotrash. Not funny enough, so basically you're just sitting there watching soft porn with old ladies.
 
 
Brigade du jour
15:51 / 16.10.04
Sounds good to me.
 
 
Ganesh
16:09 / 16.10.04
I've not seen the programme itself, Secret Goldfish, but I couldn't help but notice your somewhat loaded description of "'pony fetishing'" (not often one hears 'fetish' used as a verb...). I'm assuming this was consensual SM roleplay, so the women chose to be at the "beck and call" of an "old man" - and I'm wondering what point you're attempting to make...
 
 
Smoothly
12:10 / 17.10.04
I thought this was utterly dire, but felt it was secretly tying my shoelaces together with its meta-ness. Was it taking the piss out of the Viewers And Listeners Association? (Probably not.) People who feel comfortable watching Eurotrash (which is about as French as yorkshire pudding, SG) to laugh at how tasteless foreign TV is? (Just possibly.) People who set the video for '101 Things Removed from Swinging Club Reps'? (Maybe.) People who get in a lather about the descent of Channel 4? (I'd like to think so. Minipops, anyone?) Perhaps it's having a pop at all these things, but it left me with a suspicion that it was mostly laughing at the kind of people who'd tune into Ban This Filth, and I'm not sure how I feel about that.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:26 / 17.10.04
I'm assuming this was consensual SM roleplay, so the women chose to be at the "beck and call" of an "old man"

Indeed. One might in fact say that he "provided an opportunity, a stables and an open area" rather than "persuaded". But explaining pony play to secret goldfish may be a little beyond the scope of this discussion...

I happened to catch the end of this while waiting for "Six Feet Under", and assumed it was a section of "Eurotrash". Is it not?
 
 
Whisky Priestess
07:57 / 18.10.04
Ganesh, I think Goldfish was just trying to describe what ze saw on screen, not make a point. I didn't see a value judgement in there, just an observation.

But I think Kim and Aggie do Ban This Filth is clearly a crossover made in heaven.
 
 
Ganesh
09:06 / 18.10.04
I'm not entirely sure what point Secret Goldfish is making, Whisky, but the juxtaposition of descriptive terms used in the first post is, I think, loaded toward the imagery of a predatory "old" man verbally coercing younger women to be at his "beck and call", with the implication that this is somehow disreputable or demeaning. Secret Goldfish may not have meant to give such an impression - for all I know, he/she intended to criticise the televisual portrayal rather than the individuals themselves - in which case the phrasing itself could've been better-chosen.
 
 
Peach Pie
11:37 / 18.10.04
I too am not quite sure what Ganesh Kerry's objection is.

Naked women dressed up and being led around like animals? Did *I* say it was demeaning? everyone has to decide.
 
 
Peach Pie
11:38 / 18.10.04
I too am not quite sure what Ganesh Kerry's objection is.

Naked women dressed up and being led around like animals? Did *I* say it was demeaning? everyone has to decide.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:44 / 18.10.04
secret_goldfish: Tell you what: why not pop back and have a look at your use of the verb "persuade" there? Was there any evidence to support the idea that these women were only doing it thanks to the persuasion of the aforementioned old bloke? I know that it's very easy to get into a conversation with some silvery-haired charmer while waiting for a bus and before you know it find yourself stuck between a pair of jodhpurs on Hampstead Heath, but maybe their experience was different, eh?

That is, since it appears that this position caused some confusion, it might be possible that, rather than being persuaded by the old man, the ladies in question shared with the old man an interest in the BDSM subcategory "pony play", in which people pretend to be horses/ponies and other people pretend to be their owners/riders. Therefore, they did not need to be persuaded, but rather took this fellow's interest as an opportunity to indulge in a fetish that all of them shared, consensually and for mutual pleasure.
 
 
Peach Pie
11:59 / 18.10.04
well - I wrote 'a man persuaded two girls to dress up like horses'. True.

No value judgement. Nothing. Just fact. So what are you getting your knickers in such a twist for?
 
 
Smoothly
12:18 / 18.10.04
I happened to catch the end of this while waiting for "Six Feet Under", and assumed it was a section of "Eurotrash". Is it not?

No. At heart it's a spoof of Eurotrash, I think. It's made by the good people at Zeppotron, home of TVGoHome. Which is why I find it's cheek-tonguing kinda difficult. It's too subtle a spoof, perhaps. It might have worked better if it were dressed up as one of those notionally medical or education programmes ('Sex, Warts and All', 'Designer Vaginas' et al). Being a spoof on a spoof might be cleverish, but I suspect that the only audience it will find is the audience that it seeks to deride. Which, again might be no bad thing, but, like I say, leaves me feeling a little unsure.

As for the pony play, since it appears that I'm the only other person here who saw it, I'll add - for the record - that I didn't see any 'persuasion' at all. And it was a very brief segment. But unless I looked away at the crucial moment there was no evidence that the women were persuaded into their roles any more than the gentleman was persuaded into his.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:19 / 18.10.04
I clearly missed the section where he "persuaded" them. You appear, if I am not mistaken, to have made up this bit in your imagination. So, not true, and not fact.

That, I think, is the meat of Ganesh's objection - you are making things up to support a particular worldview. Now, lots of people do this all the time, but when they do it to make it appear that certain practices are necessarily coercive in order to avoid having to cope with a world in which they are not, that is likely to cause problems with other people's consensus reality.

Let us for a moment imagine a world in which no young man could *want* to have gay sex unless they were somehow "persuaded" (which was the prevailing wisdom for a very long time, and in certain quarters still is, not least the House of Lords), or that no woman could possibly want to have sex unless they were somehow "persuaded" (an idea so dominant in times past that it effectively formed the central thrust of the 70s comedy "the Lovers"). These days, of course, such ideas seem to us mature metropolitans ludicrous and paleolithic. Indeed, if somebody where to protest against them, to accuse them of "getting their knickers in a twist" would be considered an act at best of simplicity and at worst of bigotry.

OK. There are some lovely dots. Here's a pen. Go wild.
 
 
Peach Pie
12:26 / 18.10.04
Ok - if i had said - the girls 'were persuaded' to do what they did, rather than 'the guy persuaded them', you would not have caused all this fuss. there was never any question of *coercion*, as you'd know if you'd actually bothered to watch the programme.
 
 
Peach Pie
12:28 / 18.10.04
Haus quote:

I clearly missed the section where he "persuaded" them.

You missed the whole thing, mate. That hasn't stopped you going on and on and on, arguing over a single word.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:35 / 18.10.04
I did watch that part, which you may have noticed mentioned above:

I happened to catch the end of this while waiting for "Six Feet Under", and assumed it was a section of "Eurotrash". Is it not?

I saw no persuasion. Do you mean that they were *actresses* rather than *fetishists*? If so, surely "employed" rather than "persuaded", and in that case it was not the old man persuading them, but the director. If not, persuaded by what? Neurology? "Were persuaded" still suggests that they... well, that they were persuaded. Possibly "were persuaded by their desire to indulge in pony play", but that's not really persuasion. There's no suggestion that they were other than what they appeared - women who liked to behave like ponies, and had found an opportunity to do so.

There's no suggestion of coercion in the programme. We are talking about the suggestion of coercion in your post.

(Note: this post originally contained some bad-tempered language that, while Haus entirely owns up to using, he would rather not have stinking the place out in the cold light of day)
 
 
Peach Pie
15:07 / 18.10.04

Bush Looses Smoothly - I too thought audiences might be disquieted by the ambiguity of the humor. But I thought that was one of the good things about it. And the campaigners were hilarious.
 
 
Smoothly
15:48 / 18.10.04
Yeah, maybe you're right. I hope so. I thought there were some passably funny lines, and it started with some promise, I thought. But then it just seemed to become the thing (I assume) it was mocking. Maybe they'll phase out much of the clips as the series progresses, and the focus will sharpen on the hypocrisy of shows like Eurotrash and the Ironauts who perpetuate it.
It just seemed too hard to distinguish it from that which it seeks to mock. I suspect that it's sneering anyone who'd consider watching it, and I don't think programme makers should gob on the hand that feeds them.

I'm not being very articulate about this, I know. I suppose it's just quite hard to be ironical about irony. For instance, Charlie Brooker managed to create a fantastic spoof of 'Heat' magazine (Scorch!), but I think it'd be very difficult to parody 'Loaded' without accidentally producing 'Nuts'. I have a feeling that this is the trap Ban This Filth is falling into. If that makes sense.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:54 / 18.10.04
I was intrigued by the apparent subcultural discontinuity between the rider (tweeds, landed gent stylings whether real or put-on) and the ponies (British Suicide Girls, essentially). Interesting.
 
 
Ganesh
17:30 / 18.10.04
well - I wrote 'a man persuaded two girls to dress up like horses'. True.

No value judgement. Nothing. Just fact. So what are you getting your knickers in such a twist for?


Well, actually, you wrote that "an old man persuaded two naked girls" to dress up as horses, thus conjuring up the somewhat ludicrous image of two random, if oddly nude, young women randomly encountering an elderly gentleman and having to be verbally badgered into a situation at which they were at his "beck and call".

To me, this includes just the sli-i-ightest hint of value judgment - more through cumulative effect of the breathless imagery you chose to employ. What do we learn from your second paragraph? The man is old (in contrast to the "girls"). They required to be persuaded, implying that the fantasy is his and the "girls" participants who needed persuading (the question of their apparently wandering around naked is something of a puzzle, but there we go). You then somewhat redundantly add that the women were at this man's "beck and call".

It seems to me that you're drawing a less-than-neutral image of the power dynamic here - and, while I freely admit I haven't seen the programme concerned (unlike Haus), I think the target of your disapproval ("nail in the coffin") is unclear. That's what's twisting my knickers.

Perhaps you could now explain the point of appending my username with "Kerry"? The Rib Nurse is on hand with a suture pack for my sides...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:24 / 20.10.04
No one else like the weird old ladies? They were my favourite thing about the show.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:39 / 20.10.04
As near as I can tell, this *is* essentially Eurotrash, with Antoine de Caunes being played by two elderly ladies, who are actors, and documentary stories on things that are real - FFF is certainly a real and fairly well-known organisation. Worth it in this case for the view of William H Macy's bottom. As such, the only satire going on, as far as I can tell, is Zeppotron satirising a) the cheapness of this sort of prurience-as-moral-outrage and b) the desire of people to watch and be titillated by perhaps the only format cheaper than "The Farm".

Which means, by the way, the secret_goldfish is still to account for his or her weird persuasion fantasies, but I suspect is not going to be able to.
 
 
Peach Pie
11:40 / 20.10.04
Fly: OH yes. Until he revealed his hobbies, I thought the rider would have been quite at home in the denouement of a famous five novel.

No Bush Please, We're Ganesh:

Let's just agree that the use of the word 'persuaded' was ill-advised on my part - ok?

Relative to the girls - the guy *was* old. I'm not sure why you think this implies coercion. Perhaps it's your own age prejudice kicking in? As to the beck and call part - that's apparently part of the appeal, as you'd know if you'd actually seen the programme.

As to calling you Ganesh Kerry - this was intended to be nothing other than a friendly acknowledgement of yer Uncle John's imminent election to leader of the free world. I'm sorry doing so has caused you to seek medical treatment. Now that you've called the rib nurse out, perhaps he or she could inject you with a sense of proportion to boot?
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:47 / 20.10.04
God, if Haus and Ganesh could just let it go (I'm assuming that secret goldfish has done something wrong in some other thread that Haus, as is his wont, has decided to obsess on and drag from thread to thread) and decide that goldfish just used a poor choice of words, then maybe someone could tell me what this show was actually about - is it comedy spoofing (cf Day Today, etc), facile flesharama (cf Eurotrash, Sky One rubbish and loads of C5 stuff before it went slightly more upmarket)... what? If the former, is it funny? If the latter, does it at least have good articles? I can't get any kind of decent picture in my head from the above posts...
 
 
Ganesh
12:15 / 20.10.04
Let's just agree that the use of the word 'persuaded' was ill-advised on my part - ok?

Yep, fine.

Relative to the girls - the guy *was* old. I'm not sure why you think this implies coercion. Perhaps it's your own age prejudice kicking in?

*sigh*

Again: cumulative effect of "old", "girls", "persuaded", "beck and call". Not too keen to repeat my point in full. If you knew myself and my partner, you might be a little less ready to call me on "age prejudice".

As to calling you Ganesh Kerry - this was intended to be nothing other than a friendly acknowledgement of yer Uncle John's imminent election to leader of the free world. I'm sorry doing so has caused you to seek medical treatment.

No; it's caused me to seek relevance; just didn't see the joke/connection, and still don't.

Now that you've called the rib nurse out, perhaps he or she could inject you with a sense of proportion to boot?

You say no-sense-of-proportion; I say sense-of-proportion. I guess as someone in a relationship where fetishism, roleplay and a moderate age-gap are factors, my sense of proportion on these things differs from your own.
 
 
Ganesh
12:18 / 20.10.04
God, if Haus and Ganesh could just let it go

Helpful as ever, Jack. God forbid anyone ever should ever paint a misguidedly less-than-glowing picture of your own sexual quirks, hmm?
 
 
Ganesh
13:27 / 20.10.04
Right, I've started a Head Shop thread on paraphilias wherein I'll eventually get around to discussing attitudes toward, and subtle stigmatisation of, paraphilic sexuality in general. I'll happily vacate this thread.
 
 
Peach Pie
14:39 / 20.10.04
bye bye.

having known him for just 1 fateful day, I've already hardened in the prejudice that I'll never agree with haus about anything, but I too noticed william h. macy's sex scene with a smidgeon of glee.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:54 / 20.10.04
In case anyone remains unclear about the format. A group of old ladies, played by actors, feign moral outrage about kinky activities, groups, films etc. The documentary inserts follow largely the method of Eurotrash - comedy translations, interviewer largely occluded. On occasion the format alters to something more holiday programme-ish - an old lady interviewing, interspersed with footage, and then another link to another section from the OAPs' home. There is also a review section of naughty films, handled much as you would expect.

The old ladies clearly aim at a sort of blue-rinsed Daily Mailhood they cannot quite reach - the premise of the show is that they are trying to warn people of the dangers of smut, without realising that they are advertising it. The style is somewhat like "Unnovations", but with OAPs. That's pretty much the size of it.
 
 
Peach Pie
14:58 / 20.10.04
They've also wrote to Hounslow Council to petition their help in eradicating the dreadful practice of 'dogging'. When Hounslow Council sent back a reply saying that dogging was legal, the moral heroines took to the streets themselves, proudly displaying big yellow road signs in carparks which were sex-free.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:56 / 21.10.04
Ganesh, he wasn't talking about you. You brought you up. Nitpicking at a poor description of the show's content is what I would argue is unhelpful - most of this thread is you and Haus picking over the opening post, rather than discussing the show - and it wasn't even an interesting opening post, just a poorly worded precis.

Oh, and people make "paint a misguidedly less-than-glowing picture" of my own particular kinks all the time, I just find it increasingly boring to correct all the misapprehensions. I could point out, in fact, that the poor wording in the opening post of this thread actually appears to be querying sexual quirks that are much more mine than yours. However, as neither of us know a great deal about the other, let alone each other's 'quirks', and neither of us are particularly interested, perhaps we should just leave that point well alone?

However.

---rest of post deleted by mutual consent---
 
 
Ganesh
13:53 / 21.10.04
Maybe you can let it go sufficiently to speak to me privately if you have a response, and not fuck up this thread any more than we have already.

Already have done, thanks.
 
 
Smoothly
14:06 / 21.10.04
*averting my gaze*

I think the extent to which Haus and I disagree on this depends on the extent to which you think Eurotrash is a satire. Personally I've always seen it as a showcase for tasteless, childishly titillating European television, dressed up as a pisstake, but ultimately playing to exactly the same audience as the programmes it laughs at with such insincere incredulity. I don't think it would get many viewers if they obscured the nudity. In that sense I see it in much the same category as any of the shows that dress titillation up as a programme *about* titillation, ie. knowing and kinda spoofish perhaps, but not really satire.
I got the impression that BTF was more of a pastiche of faux-satire. A parody on the kind of people who fall for that con - people who allow themselves to be convinced that their interest is anything other than prurient. People who watch Eurotrash but flatter themselves that they're more sophisticated than the people who'd watch the shows it features. With BTF case they chose the kind of middle-Englanders who imagine that their interest in page three of the Telegraph is different from someone else's interest in page three of the Sun. But I think they could have chosen people who claim to watch 'Sex Tips for Girls' for the sex tips, or read Zoo for the car reviews. But I think perhaps that satire was too subtle. The fact that SG began a thread with a focus on one of the programmes it featured (rather than the programme itself) suggests that perhaps much of its audience failed to see the wood for the trees. Or maybe I'm wrong and the wood is Birnam.

Either way, and to return to the abstract, another thing I'm interested in is the 'nail in the coffin of Channel 4' bit. It might be worth a separate thread, but since it's been mentioned and we want to get this thread back on a FTV&T track, do others think that Channel 4 is in terminal decline?
 
 
Peach Pie
12:16 / 27.10.04
Yes.

"Nitpicking at a poor description of the show's content is what I would argue is unhelpful - most of this thread is you and Haus picking over the opening post, rather than discussing the show - and it wasn't even an interesting opening post, just a poorly worded precis."

It wasn't THAT BAD!!
 
  

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