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Underground > Books, Criticism & Writing >

Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell

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Keith, like a scientist

18:21 / 18.12.05

it took me awhile to get used to the manner of it's writing, I admit. I imagine this happens with readers a lot. But if you stick with it, it's very absorbing.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

07:16 / 16.01.06

I finished this over Xmas. It's brilliant, evocative and well-realised. Like GL says upthread, the magic is handled beautifully; this joins Diana Wynne Jones' oeuvre in my personal set of Books That Get Magic Right.

I love the chilling, eerie way that Faerie is dealt with--no sickly tweeness or clumsy 'Elves = bad! Whaddaya think of THAT then? Huh?' stuff here, just a striking and memorable sense of otherness that's truly affecting.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

07:20 / 16.01.06

Oh, and I really loved the style--the rambling footnotes, the psuedo-Georgian writing that included contemporary spellings like 'sopha' and 'shew'. Not in a position to judge how authentic this was, but it worked for me.

11:38 / 16.01.06

funny, i just started this last night and can't put it down. i actually *like* the dryish beginning (used to read victor hugo for fun when i was 12)

we'll se how long it takes for me to finish it, though...

00:30 / 18.01.06

I doubt that the new book will be a sequel in the strictest sense. There are new characters to be introduced, though probably some old friends will appear too. I'd like to move down the social scale a bit.

Hmmm...Perhaps Childermass will play a more central role in the sequel. That would be nice, as he was, to my mind, one of the better characters in this book.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

08:00 / 18.01.06

Absolutely. He was my favorite, anyway.

Can't really say anything, everybody else has taken the words from my mouth. Really, really fun to read. Loved the stories about the Raven King. He's someone else I'd like to see more of (although, maybe it was the way he was always discussed but never seen through the vast majority of the book that made me want to see more of him).

Less searchable M0rd4nt

17:11 / 18.01.06

After you guys with the Childermass appreciation. I ended up liking him immensly as a character.

Keith, like a scientist

17:43 / 18.01.06

The interviews and discussions I've seen with Clarke lead me to believe that Childermass was her favorite character, as well... so that probably does mean that he will be a focal point of the next book.

10:14 / 19.01.06

I read an interview with Clarke where she said Childermass was originally supposed to be a villainous character, but as the story evolved he just seemed to be a far more complex guy than she had originally intended him to be, and his narrative ended up going somewhere very different.

14:26 / 28.01.06

Finished it last weekend and loved it! Can't wait for the sequel, esp. if it features the Raven King. Childermass ruled and i like the believable Faerie.

I'm dubious abou the obligatory film, but soooo want to be an extra at the faerie balls.

14:28 / 28.01.06

GL-i kept thinking of you whenever the geordie stuff came up...

17:26 / 29.01.06

I finished this last weekend and gave it to my kid sister to read. My biggest beef with the genre fantasy in general is its fixation on returning kings and other Christy paraphernalia* and I was worried all the way through about the Raven King, but it was handled pretty skillfully. Whoever said the book had a clutter of characters was being a party-pooper. In fact, Clarke had a really cool, oblique way of introducing characters and foreshadowing plot points. For instance, did anyone else realize at the end, or maybe not "realize" but suspect, that the gentleman with the thistledown hair had usurped John Upglass's throne, and the whole deal was Upglass's way of getting it back? Still Christy, but with sort of a nod and a wink.

More on dissertationy topics later, maybe, after I've had a chance to read the linked articles.

*cf Alan Watts on the absurdity of democratic societies worshipping tyrannical gods. One of the reasons I enjoy George R.R. Martin's Fire and Ice series so much is its unsentimental approach to this stuff. I mean, it sort of goes the other way, setting up your expectations specifically to knock them down, but it's fun at least. I think a lot of books that are clearly fantasy but aren't metaphorically Christy get put on a different shelf at the bookstore. That is, the difference between genre fantasy and, say, magical realism, is that genre fantasy is Christy.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

10:28 / 30.01.06

did anyone else realize at the end, or maybe not "realize" but suspect, that the gentleman with the thistledown hair had usurped John Uskglass's throne, and the whole deal was Uskglass's way of getting it back?

For deffo. I mean, TGWTTDH is blatantly not John Uskglass, who is described in a way which makes him sound very different in appearance and manner, yet he seems to be occupying Uskglass' place. All through the last book you're getting this creeping suspicion: "Hang on, this bloke can't be the Raven King, can he? How come he's running the show back in Faerie? Is he running the show?" And eventually you get to: "Is Uskglass dead then? Blimey, I wouldn't want to be in this guy's shoes if Uskglass comes back..."

11:21 / 30.01.06

You're cleverer than me--none of that occured to me till the bit by the hawthorne tree.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

12:01 / 30.01.06

Well it was really only a suspicion. You kept having TGWTTDH bragging about his 'kingdoms' and stuff, but then the narrator had all these footnotes about John Uskglass, and you think "Hang on, this is a bit fishy."

13:33 / 30.01.06

A lot of the old school magicians had famous fairy servants. Were any of Uskglass's named?

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

05:55 / 31.01.06

ooooOOOOOooooh, that's good. I hadn't thought of that. Too bad the fella with the thistle-down hair is dead, now I totally want a confrontation scene between him and John Uskglass. I guess zombie fairies are out of the question....

Every time I see this thread bumped I think it's news about the next book's release. I'm not sure my spirit can take much more disappointment.

Not in the Face

10:37 / 15.02.06

Sorry to disappoint Tuna Ghost once more but returning to the book itself, the idea that TGWTTDH has usurped Uskglass' kingdom doesn't ring true to me. For one thing Uskglass never reclaims the kingdom but instead the nameless slave becomes king. Also northern england remains under the control of the Hanoverians. There are also many other faerie kingdoms - the footnotes refer to Auberon's kingdom as well as Uskglass'.

Mostly I interpreted the book's ending as saying that, for magicians, there are more important things than the wordly politics of kingship and that while there was a deliberate contrast established between the TGWTTDH's petty and cruel rule, this was to demonstrate how limited the former was - he would never give up his rule while still alive while Uskglass apparently walked away. Also the difference between their respective powers is huge - TGWTTDH is clearly terrified that the two magicians will learn to control and summon him, and yet an attempt by them to scy for Uskglass can only open a small hole through which a vast eye is peering back at them.

Strange himself says to his wife that there is a lot more to occupy magicians than just what goes on in this world and if that is true for two novice magicians then how much more so for Uskglass?

I suppose though that Uskglass did have a hand in the end of TGWTTDH but was this because the Gentleman had harmed two of Uskglass' subjects, Strange and Norrel? The book is quite clear that bonds of fealty are timeless and perhaps Uskglass felt that he needed to administer justice on their behalf?

Finally I got the sense of an almost natural decline and rise of the faerie kingdom - it was hinted that TGWTTDH used to be a much 'nicer' ruler and has slowly declined to the bloodthirsty and cruel one depicted and that his death and replacement formed a natural cycle of kingship.

Daemon est Deus Inversus

02:13 / 18.02.06

It was certainly facinating, well-researched and intricately put together: it superimposes with some success a more or less real England during the Napoleonic Wars on a fictional magickal one (the aureate and argentine magicians are convincingly crafted). Ultimately, though, it has very little to do with magick. It's also rather depressing that, in the end, Strange effectively abandons Arabella for the curiously unlikable Gilbert Norrell. The Learned Society of Yorkshire Magicians add a nice satirical touch. I enjoyed it.

13:28 / 20.02.06

My arms are still hurting from reading this many-kilo book, but the pain was worth it. I had avoided it because of its brick-like dimensions, but then decided to plunge and was hugely glad that I did. It was a wonderful experience. In particular, I loved the way that the alternative past of England and magic was not only organically formed within the author's mind, but also so organically introduced to the readers, only then to dovetail with the very real history of Britain.

I loved the ending enough that I read the end chunk of the book twice in order to extract a little more richness from it. I am amazed and worshipful at the concept of this being someone's Debut Novel. And despite my arms still being stiff, I say 'Give me more!'

20:25 / 01.03.06

I really liked this book, and I'll cast my vote with the others who thought that Childermass was the most compelling character and, I thought, criminally underused. I rather liked Vinculus as well, and I'd like to see those two being the center of the next book.

Daemon, I was pretty disappointed with the way in which Strange left Arabella as well, but I recalled that he was still cursed to solitude (Mr Norrell being the exception, having been gathered into the same curse). They can't be reunited until the curse is broken.

19:58 / 07.05.06

Did Uskglass have a hand in the downfall of the gentleman? I would say undoubtedly, but why is not entirely clear - perhaps to do with the gentleman's hanging Vinculus? You will recall that Vinculus tells Childermass that Strange and Norrell are part of the spell that Uskglass is weaving - this seems to me to indicate that Uskglass is working behind the scenes to bring his own prophecy about, in which case, depending on whether the fairy has any independence from Uskglass's workings or not, the fairy's death at the hands of Stephen Black (masquerading as Uskglass thanks to a misapplied spell cast by Norrell and Strange) is caused by Uskglass, either intentionally or accidentally. Strange and Norrell don't even understand how what has happened has happened - I think it's clear how unimportant they are to Uskglass's purpose (and I wonder whether the lady in Lost-hope's statement to Strange that he would fail to bring magic back to England is a further indication of how little agency they actually have). Also clear how little what they do has to do with Uskglass's magic, but they are perhaps more comfortable with this, being human.

I thoroughly enjoyed the book, thought the descriptions of Faerie and fairies genuinely uncanny, very well done.

15:05 / 08.05.06

Ultimately, though, it has very little to do with magick.

Ha! It has everything to do with magic.

15:16 / 08.05.06

Seriously, best book on magic I've read in ages. There is so much there if you have the eyes to see it. I think its a staggeringly insightful critique of magic and magicians, that gives me chills with the simplicity of its conclusions. All of which seems to be there by accident, since the author is - to my limited knowledge - certainly not involved with magic of any stripe. But.. Fucking Hell! She just nails so much of the essence of magic in that book. It's so on the money about so many things.

12:52 / 16.05.06

Finished this last night and have to say I enjoyed it a lot.

Agree with Flowers about the the first book. All the mentions of Strange in the footnotes made me impatient for his arrival in the story proper and there were times that Clarke seemed to of gone off on a tangent but always managed to bring it back to the story direction.

At times the footnotes really annoyed me (especially those that seemed to be longer than the chapters they appeared in) but then found that I missed them in later chapters.

The main thing that grated was when Clarke as the narrator turned from the story and addressed the reader. Can't see why but I found it greatly annoying.

As for the ending even though I was expecting the big, fire ball throwing climax between Strange and Norrell what Clarke gave us was more satisfying and in keeping with their characters. After all, as Mrs Strange says, the two are to similar in character to fight. The idea of them learning that, although practicing magicians for years, they were but beginners allowed them to forget their differences and continue on their jorney to knowledge (which I suspect was the fate of all magicians who followed the Raven King).

As for the movie version on the book's official site someone on the message board has suggested Bowie as a perfect choice for the Gentleman with the thistledown hair. Which made me chuckle.

Oh and sorry to disappoint you Tuna Ghost, just a lone reader catching up with the cool kids.

18:43 / 04.07.06

Just finished, what a wonderful book. So as not to break Tuna Ghost's heart, "The Ladies of Grace Adieu" is due October 2006. Really liked the magic of nature stuff, all her descriptions here seemed strangely psychedelic to me.

Keith, like a scientist

13:05 / 06.07.06

wow, so it is! I had no idea about this story collection that was coming. Thanks for the heads up. And drawings by Charles Vess, too!

14:42 / 06.07.06

I am having the hardest time building momentum with this one. Don't get me wrong: I love the story (so far), I love the characters, I adore the writing style and the footnotes (to the point of subjecting my wife to, surely tiresome, impromptu recitations), but... I just can't get into it, in to it more than a chapter (or barely) at a time, followed by an indefinite pause. I still consider myself to be "reading it," but I started it in March and haven't touched it in weeks, and I'm not yet three-quarters-of-an-inch (or thereabouts) in, whatever that works out to in pages.

And that's alright. I feel no pressing need to get through the book. It'll be there when I go back for it, so no guilt there. What interests me is this casualness, so at odds with my usual reading habits (books often lie unfinished, but I usually feel bad about it). Still, it's nice to have it around to dip into now and then.

I suppose I'll have something more substantive to say once I finish it, if Barbelith is still around then.

19:41 / 06.07.06

Lep: that is exactly how I was reading it, also at variance to my normal habits until about a week ago, when something clicked and I read the remaining 500 pages. It starts getting good, and I didn't want to put it down. You'll love the descriptions of magic towards the end.

Keith, like a scientist

14:28 / 07.07.06

I'm pretty sure everyone had the same experience. I know I did. I think he introduction of Strange is where the book starts to click. The first couple chapters are pretty stale, though...I found it difficult for awhile, then, like Illmatic, read the remaining 500 pages at a run, and found myself totally into it, and missing it like a dear friend afterward.

15:46 / 07.07.06

Oh, well that's all right, then.

02:25 / 19.07.06

Lep, if you look at the corners of the pages there is a number that will tell you exactly how far into the book you are.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

03:42 / 22.10.06

My spirit soars! The Ladies of Grace Adieu is finally out. I was only able to read a couple stories before Borders closed, but they were pretty tight. The titular story is a lot of fun and Jonathan Strange makes a guest appearance and gets mocked by a trio of female magicians.

Still no sign of Childermass, unfortunately. I hope he shows up.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

04:57 / 22.10.06

I'll have to give it another go. Got about 100 pages in when it first came out, then decided it was too cumbersome to take on the bus (where I do most of my reading) and forgot about it. Might have to get that slipcase paperback edition, for practicality's sake.

Kiltartan Cross

15:01 / 25.10.06

Just finished JSaMN; as per everyone above, huzzah for Childermass. Loved the footnotes, dug the Faerie.

I wonder if there's anything going on with the ravens / hanging / magical king deal, or if it's just convenient?

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