BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Starman: Grand Guignol released as TPB, providing a handy opportunity to discuss Starman more generally

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:34 / 08.10.04
Right. I missed Starman first time around, then picked up some cheap comics to check out, enjoyed them, bought more and have been buying up the trades, which brings us up to the release of Grand Guignol, the culminating point of the story arc that you realise has been dropping bits and pieces since episode 1.

I think it's a sign of low expectations in comics that we get a bit moist when the gun introduced in the first act actually does go off in the third, but the way that elements vital to this finalé are accreted and revealed is very impressive. Oddly, for me the flattest thing was the big reveal, or at least the false-bottom big reveal, which seemed to have been in many ways poorly developed - signposted by only one or two hints earlier in the arc. Nonetheless, over 70 issues to build up to a storyline that ties off everything thrown out there, give or take, is not bad going.

I'm not sure what I like about Starman that is persuading me to drop over a hundred pounds on it. Partly, I think, it's the setting, and the offbeat, Cassavetes-ish characterisation of Jack Knight himself, but also the way the narrative refuses to make himt he star, so you get 6 issues which describe the same day from the point of view of as many different second-tier characters, who are themselves very likeable and cover a lot of ground that other comic books don't (gay/bi character whose gayness/biness is not a plot point, cool old guy, and so on).

Also, I think, it may be the fact that one on level Starman is less geeky than his peers - he wears civvies, collects antiques, has kinky sex - but the narrative at the same time is very geeky, and in fact reflects in an overarching way Jack Knight's own obsessive love of the minutiae of the past. Sometimes it feels like a love letter to the cast of 1940s comics - which make up almost the entire cast, either themselves or there antecedents. Jon Valor is a major player. Jon Frickin' Valor. Even by Barbelith standards, that's pretty offbeat, and it does feel like Robinson loves these archaic, somewhat silly heroes in the way that his star (boom-tish) character loves antique vinyl, say.

So, since time is a-wastin', did you read Starman? *Are* you reading Starman? What do you think of it?
 
 
FinderWolf
16:54 / 08.10.04
This entire series fucking rocked. I read it all when it came out as individual issues. Well worth your cash.

This paperback, Grand Guignol, is the final paperback, I believe. I don't think there were any more issues after this...were there?

I flipped through this cause it made me so happy to see it. I almost bought the paperback even though I have all the issues, then I stopped myself out of financial consideration.
 
 
Dan Fish - @Fish1k
17:58 / 08.10.04
There'll be one more after this, possibly two. You still have '1951' to come, plus the funeral of ........, and the final fate of Jack Knight, not to mention the question of a successor. If they do stretch it into two, there were a couple of additional stories, in Showcase '9?, plus Batman/Starman/Hellboy. Do the later collections skip the occasional issue, like the early ones do?

Fantastic series. Well recommended from me.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:26 / 08.10.04
Not sure - the big omission so far has been the Shade mini, I think, which makes at least one of the villains in "Grand Guignol" a bit flat. Well, that and the fact the Snejberg appears to have gone a bit John McCrea.

However... what did you like about it? Why do you recommend it What makes it worth the money?
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:46 / 08.10.04
ahhh.. STARMAN Soooo rocks.

In a sence he may well be the Modern icon of a superhero.

I had a conversation on another board that talked about how the comics icons reflected both the times and the age of the readership.
So in the 30's-50's you had the juvenile power fantasies ala Superman, Batman etc...

in the 60's-70's you had the teen Angst escapism of SPIDERMAN, HULK, etc...

Of the 80's onward there's the Slacker generation angry charactors like PUNISHER & Spawn

Then there's STARMAN who seems to transend the worst of it and actually looks both to the past (with-in the story and as a sort of meta narative on the medium as well) as well as towards a potental future. Especially in context to the finality of the series' ending.

The Art of course is consistantly top notch. The series, while ahead of its time when it was published, remains IMO a timeless classic.
 
 
Krug
18:52 / 08.10.04
I bought the first trade and really dug it.

I bought the second and found it sort of mediocre.

I've been too poor to check out the rest of the series.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:09 / 08.10.04
But why did you dig it? What was it that allowed you to identify it as a good thing to read?
 
 
MrKismet
21:09 / 08.10.04
Also missing from the trades, sadly, are the wonderful entries from The Shade's Journal, which add tremendous depth and nuance to his character and the history of Starman. I've kept the full run for just that reason. Granted, the reverse printing on some of them make for a difficult read at times, they greatly enhance the series.

Very disappointing that DC chose not to include them in the trades.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:11 / 08.10.04
They are included in the trades, aren't they? Or am I just misremembering from having read the individual comics?
 
 
Krug
10:09 / 09.10.04
I found there to be an intense amount of nostalgia and creative effort put in the first story arc (originally read it in singles three years ago, bought the trade late last year).
Jack is impossible not to get attached to, and no story opens with the title character getting shot on page two.

Then there's the introduction of Shade, the t-shirt story, the theme of legacy and so much more.

And I love that advert that uses the quote...

"We are all in the gutters, but some of us are staring at the stars." - Oscar Wilde.

Now that I think about it, I really do want to read the rest of the series but I can barely afford to buy what I'm buying without adding a whole new series to my plate.

If only my library had it...

The problem with book 2 was mostly the the storyarc where Robinson's style didn't mesh that well with technique, the execution was very poor. Decompressed storytelling is hard to pull off I guess. I didn't like any of the stories in book 2 really, and the prose seemed a bit shakier.

And my god, now that I'm remembering how much I loved the scene where Jack's fighting the supervillain who killed his brother and the fight is intercut with Jack's thoughts and memories with his brother. The memory of that splash page (I MAY NOT HAVE LIKED MY BROTHER! BUT I LOVED HIM!)where he impales him, warms my heart.

I'm sure Robinsons improved as the series went on and god, I do want to read it more than ever now.
 
 
lekvar
06:44 / 12.10.04
I couldn't read the series after Tony Harris left-I don't know, the way Robinson's writing and Harris' art worked together had me more excited about comics than I'd been in years. And while Robinson still brought a literary quality that was wonderful, without Harris' art I just couldn't keep myself interested.

But the series brought something to mainstream comics that has been largely (with notable exceptions) absent from comics. We've had superheros as as an instrument of social change, as romance, as comedy, sci-fi, fantasy, horror, every genre under the sun, but comics as literature outside of Vertigo and the undergrounds was pretty conspicuous in its absence. (this isn't supposed to be flaimbait, I'm not criticising your personal favorite)

And my god! The pacing of the stories was brilliant!
 
 
uncle retrospective
08:59 / 12.10.04
I have a confession to start this with. I bought Alan Moores run of Swamp Thing, and while I liked some of it I hated the stupid DCU stuff. I mean who was the idiot with the Jet Pack? Green Lantern? Ygh! As a Vertigo snob it was like someone taking a dump on my intelengence. And it was Alan Moore. I was stunned and sickened.
Starman changed all that for me. Here was a well writen DCU book, written in what I could only call the early Vertigo style.
The love he has for all the charators is infectious, I loved his Adam Strange, the Shade is brilliant. But the thing that surprised me was how he made Alan Scott and all the old Heroes shine. This was such a unusual book to be coming out in the 90’s when the most horrable comics ever were coming out. (Cyberforce anyone?)
So Hurra! for Starman. I can’t wait for the rest to come out of it. I only wish Harris had have drawn all of it, I've never liked Snejberg.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:50 / 12.10.04
Yeah, the John McCrea period wasn't glorious, which is a real shame - I was comparing the way Harris and Snejberg draw Bobo Benetti, say, and there's a muscularity but also grace of line to Harris that just can't be matched - they really do feel like *his* characters, which may be why excitement does seem to drop off somewhat after Harris left the series. There's also the problem that his characters have to *do* something, which is much more heroish than hanging around Opal City, trying to balance an awkward relationship with your father, a talkative dead brother, girls (the bit where he asks Charity out and she turns him down flat is great, because it so rarely happens - if a woman does turn down the hero, it's because they harbour a deep, dark secret. Charity just knows it wouldn't work out) and reacting to satanic posters, ethereal stalkers and the other superheroic gubbins. When Jack Knight starts disappearing on quests into space, although it makes perfect sense, particularly in the context of the exploration of the Starman name, it seems, although his take on Rann, Krypton &c. are well-realised, that his project is in some ways less ambitious.

I think Tricks and Retrospective have mentioned something very important - whereas the Will Payton Starman largely broke off from the lineage (and has to be reintegrated), this work is tightly wound in with the 60 years or so of Starman history, but is still accessible to the reader without the same grasp on same. Jack's bewilderment at this world is vital here: a hypothetical David Knight Starman would both take it all for granted and be too afraid of being shown up to ask questions. The sense of Alan Fucking Scott that comes off him is massively engaging and a very useful narrative tool. It's only when we get to the proliferation of minor characters (Black Condor? Because - what - the first Black Condor was based in a city that, although never named, may have been Opal?) in the last couple of books that things maybe get out of hand.

Having said which, when the heroes look back, there is a discontinuity between the bright, silly past and the way Robinson tells stories that I think causes problems - in particular when the ineffably retro Captain Marvel gets involved, or Ted Knight remembers his fianc*eacute;'s turn as "Starwoman". It just seems off - at least the Shade gets backstory explaining his golden and silver age silliness...

Oh, and Ted Knight rocks very hard.
 
 
_Boboss
09:54 / 12.10.04
they've a few of the trades in the local library and i can remember the odd issue and mini series (the shade one with the different art styles for each era - ooh how nice) from when it was all happening. it's fun, very easy to read and constantly gives you that wistful, 'i like what you've done there style', but the nostalgia makes me feel a tiny bit uneasy and the spectacle is somehow lacking in visceral thud (in the issues i've read he never gets a really good two-handed grip on the end of the stick and just twats someone on the head with it. i really really want him to do this). there's a particular episode where all the dead heroes of the (g)olden age are having dinner and talkng about how cheesy they all were. scalled 'dinner with david' or something - pathos and bathos well-pissed and slapping each other on the back like the best of old pals. i want to not like it because i can feel robinson very deliberately playing with my emotions but the fact is, to someone like me that issue's about as moving as literature can get. the bits with the red bee and terry terrific left me quite touched, and the entire issue is perhaps the best 22 pages to come out of the marvels/ astro city/ kingdom come/ rossie's stodgyheroes period of the late nineties.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:24 / 12.10.04
>> Yeah, the John McCrea period wasn't glorious, which is a real shame

I don't think John McCrea drew an issue of Starman -- did he? There were several guest artists, but I don't think McCrea was one of them...?
 
 
Haus of Mystery
13:47 / 12.10.04
Steve Yeowell did some of his best US work for fill in Starman issues.

I like Starman a great deal (what I've read of it) mainly because of it's originality. By which I mean it feels like a very singular vision, that James Robinson has managed to sandwich somewhere between the DCU and Vertigo. Sometimes it feels a bit twee, or the characters' dialogue comes off as slightly contrived, but by and large it is an impressive body of work. Robinson really takes time out to flesh out the world that Jack and Co inhabit, with issues devoted to minor villains and heroes, and the city itself.
I liked Tony Harris' learning curve, and the art deco vibe, and a couple of stories (Sand and Stars, the Rashomon style 'Sins of The Child') that I read are pretty damn fine.
I purhased a lot of them for 25p so I really appreciated the good value, and at some point want to complete my collection. Flaws aside a pretty exemplary monthly finite comic. Hell of a lot more fun than Sandman, which ran as imilar length.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:20 / 12.10.04
I don't think John McCrea drew an issue of Starman -- did he? There were several guest artists, but I don't think McCrea was one of them...?

You think half-right, in the sense that John McCrea contributed art to Sandman #55 - Taxicab Confessions - but I was referring rather to Snejberg's John McCrea period, specifically the drawing of the Spider, a character with a terrible credibility gap to start with not helped at all by the art approach.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:23 / 12.10.04
You mean where Snejberg drew kind of like McCrea on certain characters for a period...?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:05 / 12.10.04
By George, I think he's got it.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
16:11 / 12.10.04
Haus did you mean STARman #55?
Do I win a No-Prize?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:17 / 12.10.04
Possibly a no-punch.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:45 / 12.10.04
Such hostility, Haus!
 
 
Haus of Mystery
18:07 / 12.10.04
How can a No-Punch be hostile?
 
 
FinderWolf
19:12 / 12.10.04
I thought it was implying that if we didn't get it right, he'd punch us. Thus, we did get it right, and thus it was a no-punch.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:26 / 12.10.04
Anyway, it doesn't really matter, I was giving Haus a hard time about his phrasing, this thread is about Starman!!

Has Jack Knight shown up again in the DCU since his series ended? I seem to remember him making one appearance - maybe in JSA a few years ago...?
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
05:17 / 14.10.04
Well, because of my fellow Barbeloids, I started reading Starman. I just finished Grand Guignol ten minutes ago. I love this stuff. As a whole book, the series is great. It's fun and entertaining, and not filled with unnecessary violence or absurdly huge bosoms...(which was amazing, considering it's time)

***(SEMI)SPOILER WARNING********
I must say, though, the ending... wow. Not the death, I saw that coming issues before. The other ending... the note in the shop. Jesus. Kick a guy in the balls when he's already down...
I love the story. It's just the saddest ending I could imagine for Starman...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:04 / 14.10.04
Dude, it's not the ending. I think there are about 8-10 issues to go, which I guess will be collected in one or two more collections - hopefuly one, since they managed to stick the 13-issue Grand Guignol in a single volume, and I could do with saving the money...

The next question is - the JSA. Is it any cop at all?
 
 
Haus of Mystery
07:46 / 14.10.04
I read the first issue and...pffeh. Didn't have the same appeal at all, and Morrison's JLA was still doing it for me. Kind of hated some of the updating of characters. Sand? No. Plus they killed Kid Eternity off in the first issue - not good.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:51 / 14.10.04
They seriously killed off Kid Eternity in JSA #1? Wow...I read that book and I don't remember it. Then again, I read it a long time ago when it first came out...and the death of Kid Eternity might not have raised my eyebrows back then.

JSA is a book that goes in and out for me - sometimes it's quite good, other times it's just average, sometimes it's pretty weak. I'd say it's gone through that cycle for its entire run - but I'm glad a JSA book is out there. Sometimes Geoff Johns comes up with some really nice stuff for that book - and the resurgence of interest in the JSA and DC's 1940s heroes is almost entirely due to James Robinson's treatment of those heroes in STARMAN, I think.
 
 
Mr Tricks
17:15 / 14.10.04
For more on how STARMAN influenced the return of JSA. Read this.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
02:36 / 17.10.04
Read "Grand Guignol" a couple days ago. The stuff near the end was really moving, though I felt that the middle was a bit weird at times (the pacing was fine, but the placement of some of the "meanwhile" or "just before" issues was a bit wonky at times).

I had trouble jumping in between the differences in the 8th book and the "Grand Guignol".

I found the Shade-Culp thing was a bit wonky, but there might have been some issues that were adressed in the Shade miniseries.

I'm interested to hear how Courtney ended up with the cosmic rod. But was that adressed in the JSA TPBs?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
13:53 / 17.10.04
They seriously killed off Kid Eternity in JSA#1 ?

They did indeed, along with Scarab, if memory serves, and a couple of others. Robinson by that stage was being, arguably, almost aggressively old school.
 
 
FinderWolf
12:49 / 18.10.04
>> I'm interested to hear how Courtney ended up with the cosmic rod. But was that adressed in the JSA TPBs?

Jack passes it on to her in the final pages of the final issue of STARMAN (which will be reprinted in either the next paperback or the paperback after that, whichever one is last).
 
 
Jack Denfeld
16:10 / 27.02.06
How was the Shade mini? Is it about the Ludlow Spider family?

I really loved Starman when it was coming out for a bunch of reasons. Through Jack Knight we kind of saw how someone would view superheroics in that universe. Weird characters from all over DC's history dropping by like the Multialien guy. And I loved Robinson's take on the Golden Age guys. It made me wanna buy old cheap back issues to see the old JSA guys, and got me to jump onboard JSA when it was released for the 1st couple of years.

I also liked that there was a beginning, middle, and an end to a superheroes career. A complete story. That's why I don't mind so much if Wally West never comes back. It's just kind of neat to see a superhero wrap things up after a job well done.

My trades are long gone now, but I'm trying to download the whole run and the Shade mini now so I can read the thing in one shot.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
21:43 / 27.02.06
I always liked the "Conversation With Davey" B/W issues that were done yearly. Very good family dynamic stuff, as well as a few good bits of foreshadowing.

I think it was in another thread here where someone mentioned that Black Condor was put in as a last minute replacement, because Hawkman was going to be the "man with the wings" from the vision early on.

I could be making all this up though, spent the weekend moving and the brain is a bit muddy.
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply