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Could four more years of the Beast be a good thing?

 
  

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iamus
13:00 / 06.10.04
Ok, politics isn't my strongest suit at the best of times, and I realise that going with the current trend of user names around here this probably won't be the most popular opinion expressed, but I thought I'd throw it in and let myself get swamped.

Now I'm no supporter of Bush. I whole heartedly agree that his policies and actions are flushing the world down the toilet, but after an MSN conversation with an american friend he put fourth a few ideas that I'd like your opinions on.

I believe that America is on it's way to a cultural revolution. This is something that has being going on since before 9/11. 9/11 was to me the inciting incident to this change, surprising at the audacity and scale, but not unexpected. Something was on the horizon which was majorly going to shake things up.

Everybody is reactionary towards Bush. But what bush stands for, the republician revolution, has already happened quietly through capitalism. Bush is disgusting, but Kerry, however well intentioned, is a bit of a joke and not really a fully viable alternative.

If there really is a cultural revolution on it's way (which may well be sticky and very nasty for a lot of people but still much needed), electing Bush again may be just what is needed to see that it happens. I'm afraid that electing Kerry may dilute a lot of the anger and will for change. After another four years of Bush, everybody would be so disgusted at what he has done, particularly to international relations, that there would be an en masse migration to the left. If Kerry gets elected, it may breed in unwanted complacency and things might continue unchanged.

Think of it as advancing the virus to boost the immune kickback and cure the disease. if Kerry gets in, there's every chance that the virus gets stronger the next time around. I'm not saying it's the most pleasent compromise in the world, nor am I saying any of us should go out there and vote him in (a geographical impossibility for me anyhow), but it's something I'd like to see you guys chew on.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:20 / 06.10.04
I've thought of the same thing, as I'm sure have many other people.

BUT, a scenario that could work against the left is if Guliani runs in '08. America has practically deified him and he's still a Rep., even if he's less moronic and less extreme right-wing than Bush (Guliani is somewhat moderate compared to the current administration, though hardly a cuddly teddy bear himself). Guliani would defeat almost any challenger, I fear. And that would mean ANOTHER 4 years of a Rep. president.
 
 
Bed Head
13:32 / 06.10.04
after an MSN conversation with an american friend

It’s rather similar to an idea that’s been suggested before on Barbelith, here. In fact I think it’s the same basic theme I can remember having seen bobbing around in the media as far back as July. 30 seconds of thought and I think it almost seems calculated to appeal to readers of apocalyptic science-fiction, y’know? It’s certainly getting repeated a lot, as if disaster and subsequent revolution would be a good thing in the long run. But, yeah, perhaps it needs a separate thread like this to really pick it all apart.
 
 
gridley
14:13 / 06.10.04
Yeah, just think about how great it'll be. There'll be enough time for Bush to get another conservative suprem court justice so that Roe vs. Wade can get overturned, so that the 30 states that have pledge to make abortion illegal can make their reproductive dreams come true.

And we can drive the national debt to such bizarre proportions that our economy can fall apart even sooner.

We can shift even more of the tax burden away from the rich and finally get rid of that pesky middle class.

And who knows, maybe we'll even get a chance attack and destabilize a couple other countries in the process.

Who doesn't win from this brilliant plan!??!
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
14:17 / 06.10.04
It’s certainly getting repeated a lot, as if disaster and subsequent revolution would be a good thing in the long run.

That's the whole point. That it would in fact turn out to be a good thing in the long run.

The thread summary is "Why Bush getting a second term may work for the left's advantage". Fuck the left. They're no better than the right. I'm not hoping that four more years of Bush will help the left, I'm hoping that four more years of Bush will help people (Americans in particular) realize their own importance in the democratic process.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
14:30 / 06.10.04
Yeah, just think about how great it'll be. There'll be enough time for Bush to get another conservative suprem court justice so that Roe vs. Wade can get overturned, so that the 30 states that have pledge to make abortion illegal can make their reproductive dreams come true.

Ah, I don't buy it. I really don't see this ever happening (not that it matters where I am). I think it's just pandering to get votes. But that's only my opinion, so you can keep on worrying, if it makes you feel better.

Who doesn't win from this plan?

Well, it's not really a plan, is it? You can't plan something like this, it completely destroys the value of the lesson.

I've said elsewhere that if Bush gets re-elected and his policies and actions abroad and at home completely fuck up everything, then at least there will be no one left who thinks his way of doing things is best (at least, no one any rational person would take seriously) because there will be eight years of disaster to reflect upon. Hence the cultural revolution: America realizes it's not the only table in the restaurant and maybe ought to act more responsibly. People take their role in governing the nation much more seriously. The rest of the world stops hating america so damn much. Everybody is a winner, see?

Either that, or we all go down in a nuclear fire. I'm cool either way, really.
 
 
iamus
14:31 / 06.10.04
Guliani would defeat almost any challenger, I fear.

As things stand just now, yes. But the climate in four years time may be markedly different. If Kerry got in, I would think the possibility of Guliani in '08 would probably be far more than if Bush did.

30 seconds of thought and I think it almost seems calculated to appeal to readers of apocalyptic science-fiction, y’know? It’s certainly getting repeated a lot, as if disaster and subsequent revolution would be a good thing in the long run

There certainly is an argument for that. It's in keeping with the kind of depressive current we're in just now. But if Kerry gets in, would we be shaking ourselves out of that or simply sublimating it and allowing it to resurface later?
Revolution on whatever scale can be a very ugly and unglamorous thing, but often necessary.

Like Diz' bit on reaganism in the other thread, some systems seem a little too entrenched to be rooted out conventionally. Perhaps having just cause for people to say "Fuck off. No more" and then think about rebooting the whole thing is what is needed. Instead of trying to rebuild shaky foundations from underneath yourself.

Who doesn't win from this brilliant plan!??!

But look at the reaction that gives you. And think how this could perpetuate itself in the future if the majority of people are not fully made aware of the consequences of such actions.

The thread summary is "Why Bush getting a second term may work for the left's advantage". Fuck the left. They're no better than the right. I'm not hoping that four more years of Bush will help the left, I'm hoping that four more years of Bush will help people (Americans in particular) realize their own importance in the democratic process.

Yes, I agree completely. Poor choice of phrasing while coming up with an abstract.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:41 / 06.10.04
I feel the 'fuck the left, they're no better than the right' is really just unproductive, pie-in-the-sky "I want a utopia now" thinking. We have to work with the system we have and change it from within. Look at the damage Nader did in 2000 and is poised to do again by taking votes away from someone who can realistically win the Presidency.

>> Ah, I don't buy it. I really don't see this ever happening (not that it matters where I am). I think it's just pandering to get votes. But that's only my opinion, so you can keep on worrying, if it makes you feel better.

It is a fact that whoever becomes Prez next will appoint a whole LOTTA Supreme Court judges who will likely have long lives, thereby setting the tone of the Court for years to come. That's a big deal.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
14:53 / 06.10.04
I feel the 'fuck the left, they're no better than the right' is really just unproductive, pie-in-the-sky "I want a utopia now" thinking. We have to work with the system we have and change it from within.

Sometimes I wonder if the system (in it's present form) is even capable of enacting the changes I would like to see. But then, it's not all about me, I suppose.

I agree that "fuck the left" might have been a poor choice of words to get my idea across. I just feel it's a mistake to think that the "other party" will make all the problems the current ruling party has caused go away. It's not the party, it's the person who is interpreting the party's stance and what he plans to do. I don't particularly care which party the next president comes from. I care whether or not he's an amoral douchebag.

Look at the damage Nader did in 2000 and is poised to do again by taking votes away from someone who can realistically win the Presidency.

Does that mean he shouldn't run if he feels he's the better man? That people shouldn't vote for him even if they think he's perfect for the job, or just think both the republican and democratic candidate are tools?
 
 
FinderWolf
14:58 / 06.10.04
I do agree that I wish we had more parties who were viable candidates than the Dems or Repubs, but I just don't know how realistic it is that we'll get them. At this point, you can vote on principle for Nader to make a statement, but there is no way imaginable that he will actually be our next President. So I feel it comes down to: do you want to defeat Bush, or make a statement about 3rd parties and most assuredly end up with Bush, because you're taking away votes from Bush's opponent?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
15:02 / 06.10.04
It is a fact that whoever becomes Prez next will appoint a whole LOTTA Supreme Court judges who will likely have long lives, thereby setting the tone of the Court for years to come. That's a big deal.

It is and it isn't. Long lives? Fuck, I'll outlive all of them, barring any unforeseen accidents. But I wasn't referring to the Supreme Court anyway, but rather the legality of abortions. Where I live, most people can't afford 'em anyway. "But they deserve the choice," you say. Well, maybe they do, maybe they don't. I've been told both many times, and if the don't's outnumber the do's in a democratic system doesn't that mean they should get their way? I thought we were working with the system here.

It doesn't matter, because the choice is always there, regardless of the legality (especially in Detroit, where there isn't so much "law" as much as "suggestions on how to conduct oneself in public").
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:09 / 06.10.04
Well, yes. And the appointment of those Supreme Court Judges woudl be entirely legal and above board, so unless the cultural shift involved the dissolution of the constitution it would mean a primarily right-wing supreme court for a long time to come. The damage that coudl do is tremendous.

Also, the damage another four years of Bush/Cheney could do? Tremendous, not just to the US but to the people in other countries who will die as a result of their reelaction who might not have if they had not won, and the damage to the environment...

It's a comforting idea, and one often espoused by Marxists back in the day, that capitalism becoming more rapacious is good, because it hastens the day when the oppressed rise up and overthrow their masters. Unfortunately, until such time as this happens, all you have is more rapacity, and I'm not sure it's entirely fair to ask the world to put up with that so that the US can ultimately be a happier place.

However, it could just be that I don't have a handle on the way the change would ocur. What sort of a culture shift are we expecting, in terms of process?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:10 / 06.10.04
and if the don't's outnumber the do's in a democratic system doesn't that mean they should get their way?

Short version? No. One of the functions of democracy is to protect people from the will of the majority.

Long version? Gott in Himmell.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
15:17 / 06.10.04
At this point, you can vote on principle for Nader to make a statement, but there is no way imaginable that he will actually be our next President.

True. Not without one or two tragic airplane accidents, anyway.

So I feel it comes down to: do you want to defeat Bush, or make a statement about 3rd parties and most assuredly end up with Bush, because you're taking away votes from Bush's opponent?

Well, I'm voting for Schartzenegger, so what does that tell you about my personal stance? (insert witty one-liner here. example: "That you like huge nipples?")

I don't feel personally threatened by a Bush re-election. I feel bad for the rest of the world, certainly, because shit will likely go down if Bush comes back. Hopefully, it'll all lead to something good. There's a good Taoist story about the value of good news v.s. bad news and the long(est) term view, but I've got class in a minute, so I can't tell it here.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:20 / 06.10.04
You're doing a write-in for a guy who is not even running for President, currently has another quite large job, and is barred from Presidential office by a law about foreign-born citizens? I hope you're joking.
 
 
Nobody's girl
15:25 / 06.10.04
Too much at stake, far too much at stake.

From what I got from the Wikipedia article on Neocons, one of their defining characteristics is hawkish foreign policy. Last night Cheney clearly confirmed that. So, yes, I know it might be tempting to make 'em see how bad it can get but I'm not willing to risk teaching US citizens a lesson in exchange for more needless carnage.

This is quite apart from the reversal of Roe vs Wade issue, giving the Republicans an opportunity to try and nake nice with the electorate (people have astonishingly short memories), the further erosion of civil liberties with the renewal of the Patriot Act (c'mon, you KNOW it'd happen under Bush's second term) and even more of a chance to fuck with the electoral system to their advantage. I could think of a million more terrifying possibilities but these are just the few that immediately spring to mind.

On a personal note, I think I'd really start to be scared of visiting my family there.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:27 / 06.10.04
>> I don't feel personally threatened by a Bush re-election. I feel bad for the rest of the world, certainly, because shit will likely go down if Bush comes back.

The rest of the world can be harmed but it's ok as long as you're not harmed personally?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
16:28 / 06.10.04
Guess what? Class was cancelled because no one showed up. No one showed up because there is no parking anywhere on the campus. There is no parking anywhere on campus because guess who is speaking at a rally today at my school?

Bush! Dubya! Seriously. He's gonna be fifty yards away from me. I had no idea he was coming here.

Unfortunately, until such time as this happens, all you have is more rapacity, and I'm not sure it's entirely fair to ask the world to put up with that so that the US can ultimately be a happier place.

Not happier, neccessarily, but more responsible. Isn't that what everyone wants?

However, it could just be that I don't have a handle on the way the change would ocur. What sort of a culture shift are we expecting, in terms of process?

Hard to say. Let's get some psychohistorians, a la Isaac Asimov's Foundation trilogy, so sort it out for us.

Actually, I don't have much of a handle on how, in terms of process, it would occur either. I'm not sure how anyone would come to this knowledge. I guess we'll see. No one was ever able to tell me how Christ's blood washes away my sins in terms of process, but I'm still hoping it works.


>> I don't feel personally threatened by a Bush re-election. I feel bad for the rest of the world, certainly, because shit will likely go down if Bush comes back.<<

The rest of the world can be harmed but it's ok as long as you're not harmed personally?


Yes. And 2+2 = 14,590.
 
 
eddie thirteen
16:41 / 06.10.04
Short answer to the thread's question: No. I can think of no historical precedent for bad leadership leading to any sort of cultural utopia. And that we're talking about "cultural" gains being made means what, exactly? When I think of culture, I think of art; and yes, at least in cultures in which art is not suppressed, a climate of protest does make sometimes for more interesting art. However, we live in a country where John Ashcroft had a statue's boobies covered because they distracted him during press conferences...how does this lead logically to an America where censorship isn't likely to become a major problem in the next four years of a Bush administration? Even if it doesn't, we need to get our priorities straight. A cultural revolution means nothing in the context of a nation that has outlawed abortion (again) and involved its citizenry in a Starship Troopers-style endless war against a vaguely-defined boogieman. Only the sort of people who already benefit from (or at least are not hurt by) a Bush presidency could possibly think that somehow this will improve our lives. This man is the fucking Antichrist, and I assure you there's not a thing to be gained from his remaining in power. I envy anyone who is in such a comfortable societal position that he/she can entertain the notion for even a moment, and I sincerely hope that anyone who really does feel that way ends up unemployed, saddled with an unwanted pregnancy they can't get rid of without visiting Jack the Ripper, or shipped off to be killed or mutilated in a war we started. I know thinking hurts, but please, let's try it.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
16:49 / 06.10.04
A. That was anything but "short".

B. Did you actually read the thread? Or just the title?
 
 
FinderWolf
16:50 / 06.10.04
Johnny O'Clock, that's an amazing coincidence that Dubya is at your campus today! There are no accidents...
 
 
FinderWolf
16:52 / 06.10.04
>> Hard to say. Let's get some psychohistorians, a la Isaac Asimov's Foundation trilogy, so sort it out for us.

Where are those psychohistorians when we need them?? I always thought that was a fascinating concept and really wanted the "real" world to come up with their version of psychohistory.

Sadly, many experts have predicted that based on past history, stock market, polls, political climate, etc., Bush will likely win this election, even by a close margin. However, they could be wrong and the overwhelming new wave of registered voters could turn the tide. We'll see...
 
 
ibis the being
16:58 / 06.10.04
Okay, first of all -

Ah, I don't buy it. I really don't see [Roe v Wade being overturned] ever happening (not that it matters where I am). I think it's just pandering to get votes. But that's only my opinion, so you can keep on worrying, if it makes you feel better.

Johnny O'Clock, I'm afraid you're dreaming if you don't think Roe v Wade is in trouble. As I believe I've said in another thread, Ashcroft is already, right now, moving an anti-abortion case through the courts with the goal of getting it to the Supreme Court once there is a new Supreme Court. I can go dredge up the sources for the story (which I heard on NPR) if you'd like, but probably so can you if you're at all familiar with Google.

If you don't care about abortion rights, how about no more morning after pill? The morning after pill is not an abortion pill, it just prevents fertilization, but the Bush Admin is against that too. Still don't care? How about if women can't take birth control pills? Because some right-wingers even view them as abortion pills, because if by chance an egg does get released and fertilized, it can't implant in the uterine lining.

Look, as has been pointed out, this whole topic has been discussed. Personally, I'm afraid that if Bush gets reelected, there won't be a long term. I'm not talking about an apolcalypse, but I think it's possible that the US economy and the US's place in the world could be irreparably damaged by Four More Years.
 
 
eddie thirteen
17:07 / 06.10.04
No, no, I read the thread. Um...I think I may have reacted a bit vitriolically? Which doesn't change the fact that I basically think the idea -- which I heard first when Bush was coming up in 2000, actually -- is an insane kind of Stockholm Syndrome, i.e., "I guess we're stuck with him, so let's try and rationalize how ultimately this could lead to a full-on disgust with the right that will forever after insure that such a candidate is completely unelectable." It's a nice thought, but (a) Bush's polling indicates that he's just about as popular now as he was four years ago, and (b) it's not like he's the first republican president to enact horrific changes on the country. (That said, at least Nixon -- in direct contrast to Bush's foreign policy, which seems to consist of him pissing off everyone who doesn't live here -- made friends with China.) The horrifying truth seems to be that, regardless of how poorly these people govern, there will always be a certain percentage of the populace that either agrees with their policies or is too ignorant to forge an intellectual link between our leaders and their actions. I think the idea that somehow everyone will come to see that these people do not belong in power as the result of a terrible Bush presidency is both very naive and completely without historical precedent. It may keep a republican out of the White House in 2008, for whatever good that does after four more years of Bush wreaking havoc at home and abroad, but that's it. The American memory is short and faulty. So no, I don't see an upside. I'm glad you do, just in case we are stuck with him. Y'know, someone should be happy.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:07 / 06.10.04
Ibis: I believe what you say regarding Ashcroft and his plans for Roe v.s. Wade. I'm still not particularly worried, for reasons I've already given.

As for the morning after pill, I wasn't even aware that such a pill was available over the counter. And birth control? Are you seriously suggesting that you fear for the legality of birth control because "some right-wingers" think it's Bad? Even if it was outlawed in it's present form (which is rediculous. Even republicans use birth control), different methods would crop up almost immediately.
 
 
eddie thirteen
17:16 / 06.10.04
I don't think anyone is suggesting that the right will outlaw, say, condoms, but their abstinence-only sex ed policy has made it harder to even discuss most forms of birth control in public schools without said schools running into problems. (Which has bigger implications than population control; AIDS in the inner city is epidemic, and quite possibly would not be if condoms were a bigger part of that picture.) And has already been noted, they've made major inroads into making abortion illegal for a second time. This is all stuff that's readily available to people who read publications as sophisticated as USA Today.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:24 / 06.10.04
No, no, I read the thread. Um...I think I may have reacted a bit vitriolically?

Yeah, me too. Sorry for the snarkiness.

I think the idea that somehow everyone will come to see that these people do not belong in power as the result of a terrible Bush presidency is both very naive and completely without historical precedent. It may keep a republican out of the White House in 2008, for whatever good that does after four more years of Bush wreaking havoc at home and abroad, but that's it.

It sounds like you mean "Republicans" when you say "these people". I don't care about republicans being in power, I care about assholes being in power. One may be harder to prevent than the other, though.

There may be no precedent for this "revolution" happening (at least not in U.S. history), but that doesn't mean it can't/won't happen. Large scale terrorist attacks were unprecented (in U.S. history) once upon a time.

And I won't be happy if Bush is re-elected. Just not as distressed as you guys, apparently. Bad things can lead to good things just as easily as they can lead to other bad things.
 
 
ibis the being
17:25 / 06.10.04
Here's an article about the growing anti-Pill trend. Note that right now it's "a small percentage" of doctors and pharmacists, but that the movement is "gaining traction." This is the sort of thing that will worsen under 4 More.

Of course it's unlikely that the government will outlaw condoms or other birth control methods, but that doesn't matter. Even if I granted that the government has the right to control which methods a woman can or can't choose (which I don't), plenty of women take the Pill for health reasons such as endometriosis, debilitating menstrual symptoms, irregular cycles, etc. The Pill also reduces the risk of certain types of cancer (sa cervical cancer). I'm not being sarcastic when I say, Johnny, I think I missed your explanation for why you're "not worried" about women's reproductive health rights. Frankly, I can't fathom why anyone in this country would be "okay" with these transgressions.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:38 / 06.10.04
If there really is a cultural revolution on it's way ( Which may well be sticky and very nasty... )

I have a feeling it would be sticky and very nasty for some more than others, and I'm not sure if middle class college students ( no offence intended, I was one myself, )would fall into the former category, y'know ?

Presumably no one's going to actually vote for Dubya as a result of this type of argument? Are they ? Realistically, in the face of said cultural revolution, ( which given the political system in the States would have to represent a fairly major sea change, to say the least, ) the Republican party would have the FBI, the CIA, and the entire US military-industrial complex at it's disposal, while their opponents, if things really did get sticky, would have... I don't know, flans and t-shirts, the odd M-16 ? And say what you like about The Republican Party, as it is these days, but those guys are nothing if not committed.

It's a bit like saying you should cut a rabid dog loose from it's lead, on the basis that it'll probably wear itself out eventually, and that after that everyone will take the quarantine laws much more seriously, IMHO.
 
 
iamus
20:01 / 06.10.04
It's a bit like saying you should cut a rabid dog loose from it's lead, on the basis that it'll probably wear itself out eventually, and that after that everyone will take the quarantine laws much more seriously, IMHO.

HaHa! Yes it is a bit.

I'm still not sure where I really stand on this. First of all, I'm fully aware that I am middle class enough (and scottish enough) that this does not really make any difference to my day to day. I'm also mature enough to understand that more Bush makes a hell of a difference to those less sheltered than myself.

Had I the opportunity to vote Bush back in I doubt I would. Had I the opportunity to vote Kerry in....well I don't know. I don't think that "he's not Bush" is a good enough reason. What I do know is what I intuitively felt pre-9/11 and what I still feel now, that America is on the cusp of some sort of cultural revolution and something has yet to run its course.

I believe that we're a lot closer to that now than we were at the very start of Bush's term. For however far back he seems to be regressing social attitudes to contraception etc., his moral opposition is now far more organised and visible than before.

Although this element was present before, as I said it is a lot more visible now. Having somebody like Bush in power has polarised americans in my opinon. Post 9/11, the average american is now far more aware of the world around them. America seems (to the view of this outsider) to be split between the nationalists and those who care about how their country is percieved by the rest of the world and also how their country affects the rest of the world. This division is important in getting really valid issues and concerns into the public forum.

To take a step back (and please tell me if such meta-wankery is unwelcome over-simplification), I see it as part of a culture's growth into maturity. Moving from the terriatoriality/aggression and developing into a more split/questioning mindset often associated with adolescence.

My point is that I feel, to have Kerry in now may disrupt that process before the polarisation is complete enough to really let both sides spark up some proper, decisive interaction.
 
 
eddie thirteen
22:28 / 06.10.04
Barring revolution in the streets -- which looks good in the movies, but which I have a feeling I would not like to see in real life -- I'm not sure how America could be much more polarized than it is right now. As in 2000, the voter split between the candidates appears to be about 50/50; from there, all that can happen is that the balance tips. The idea that America is nearing the point where all the bullshit reaches critical mass and we at long last grow up presupposes two things: (1) that American bullshit has never before reached such epic volume (this might be true), and (2) that other, older nations have presumably undergone the same caterpillar-to-butterfly-like transformation. If so, where are these vastly more advanced cultures? As far as I can tell, what divides the government of the UK from that of the US is not an ideology, but a large body of water.

If, on the other hand, what is being proposed is that America will turn into a nation unlike any ever seen before...ever...eh, I kinda doubt it. Humanity seems fairly consistent over the course of history, and I personally think all any of us can be expected to do is our best to make sure things are as balanced on the side of sense in this moment; it's an ongoing struggle to keep (as Johnny so succinctly put it) the assholes away from the steering wheel.

Johnny may feel that Bush and Kerry are both assholes (I myself disagree, but never mind). Even so, that makes Bush the asshole who grits his teeth and tells us all with the unshakable conviction of a determined lemming, "Yes, that is a cliff we're coming up on -- and by God, anyone who says we can't drive over it doesn't believe in our country." Whereas Kerry is the asshole who's saying, "Holy shit, dude, a CLIFF!" Maybe neither is capable of getting us around it, but at least Kerry acknowledges that it could kill us all, and that we probably shouldn't have started heading for it.

As for assholes themselves, I just don't foresee a time when they're no longer a problem. They're here today, they'll be here tomorrow, and -- as much as I'd like to believe otherwise -- theirs is a genetic flaw that I believe will be with us, like, forever. It's nice to think that we're all evolving toward Nirvana, but I wouldn't hold my breath, y'know?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:12 / 07.10.04
I don't think that "he's not Bush" is a good enough reason.

But let's look at what "he's not Bush" means in this context. Part of it is the idea that Kerry is personally unlike Bush, but that is only relevant insofar as it is expressed through policy. So, the assumption goes, Kerry would not be so swift to dismantle the civil rights that the US has struggled to create and maintain for the last 200+ years. Kerry would not be so swift to reject international cooperation on climate change. He would presumably seek to gain international approval before attacking another sovereign nation. He would attempt to make the US constitution and legislature anti-choice and anti-gay marriage. He woudl not continue to rack up a deficit while giving tax cuts that primarily benefit the wealthy.

These are all big differences.

What I do know is what I intuitively felt pre-9/11 and what I still feel now, that America is on the cusp of some sort of cultural revolution and something has yet to run its course.

Which is fine, but I don't see how one can say with confidence that it would be brought about by four more years of Bush/Cheney, whereas one can say with confidence, because we already know, what Bush and Cheney have undertaken to do if they have another four years.

I believe that we're a lot closer to that now than we were at the very start of Bush's term. For however far back he seems to be regressing social attitudes to contraception etc., his moral opposition is now far more organised and visible than before.

Um. Not sure I get this. There are certainly more people protesting against Bush's presidency than there were before he was President. However, I don't see much evidence to support the idea that there was no distinction between those US citizens who were interested in domestic politics and those who were interested in international politics, or indeed that those split along party lines.

To take a step back (and please tell me if such meta-wankery is unwelcome over-simplification), I see it as part of a culture's growth into maturity. Moving from the terriatoriality/aggression and developing into a more split/questioning mindset often associated with adolescence.

Again, I'm not sure I get this. The only example I can think of immediately is the process by which the European powers surrenedered their empires. However, a) a Chomsky would say that that is just a different phase of territoriality and b) the US is not disposing of its empire - quite the reverse. More generally, I'm not sure you can map the development of a national politics onto the development of a person, nor indeed how the presence of two heavily-polarised groups in the US (which, to a very great extent, we already do) maps onto adolescence, or indeed why having an adolescent superpower would be a go.

I'm just not feeling this culture change. Could you explain how it would occur, and what it would entail?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:26 / 07.10.04
I agree that "fuck the left" might have been a poor choice of words to get my idea across. I just feel it's a mistake to think that the "other party" will make all the problems the current ruling party has caused go away.

I really hope nobody on this thread is under the illusion that the Democratic Party and "the left" are in any way the same thing. The overlap is small, if there is any.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:55 / 07.10.04
Or, for that matter, that the problems will go away with the arrival of a Democratic incumbent. We're talking about a least-worst option...
 
 
iamus
14:50 / 07.10.04
But let's look at what "he's not Bush" means in this context ... These are all big differences.

OK yes. But what I'm thinking just now is that, while these are all very important issues, in the long term, would having Kerry in benefit? You say "would not be so swift", maybe I'm just picking up on semantics but it seems to me (and I could always do with being more informed) that Kerry is playing softer rules of the same game. While this is very good in the short term, (because lets face it, civil rights are a good thing) I can't help but think it's working on the surface without healing the problems below.

Do you think that a term or two of Kerry will properly address how Bush was able to make these fundamental changes and stop this sort of thing from happening again? I'm tending towards the fact it may engender homeostasis. A swing to the left, a swing to the right with each successive one swinging these issues with them. Although Bush would accelerate the downturn in another term, it may also trigger a public kickback that I'll get to in a second.

However, I don't see much evidence to support the idea that there was no distinction between those US citizens who were interested in domestic politics and those who were interested in international politics, or indeed that those split along party lines.

I'm not saying that there was no distinction, or now that there is really more. What I'm saying is these seem me to be more distinct and visible. Bush seems to have become a polarising element for these forces like no other president (save perhaps Nixon but I don't know enough about this to talk with any sort of confidence).
The anti-bush stance seems to unite many politically aligned people who before, worked toward the same goal in a more disconnected fashion. Anti-bush seems to also stand for anti-globalisation in a lot of circles. Although these are different things, they have become connected. Bush seems to be symptomatic of the current global issues which have been accumulating since waaay before he was around.

Again, I'm not sure I get this. The only example I can think of immediately is the process by which the European powers surrenedered their empires. However, a) a Chomsky would say that that is just a different phase of territoriality and b) the US is not disposing of its empire - quite the reverse.

The european empires thing was along the lines of what I meant. What Chomsky says makes sense to me, although I haven't read him enough to really pick at that. The US leadership trying to further it's empire in such a fashion is to me the beginning of acceptance that it's empire is dying. As it sees that it is losing footing as the dominant empire it tries frantically to hold on, exerting dominance where it can. Internationally it is being overtaken by the increasingly consolidated european superstate, which is counteracted by the "lone star" actions toward the Middle East (although this is also for internal political reasons, I think the manner in which it was conducted is telling). From within, the goverment is being challenged by the interconnectivity of its own population through the internet and the free trade of information. This seems to be being counteracted with the Patriot act amongst other things.

I accept what you say about mapping personal development onto political development. Although I wouldn't be too quick to discount it. Somewhat crude and not really precise enough it may be, but I'd say the two processes have more in common than we'd at first imagine.

I'm just not feeling this culture change. Could you explain how it would occur, and what it would entail?

As much as I'd like to, trying to give a definitive answer would be both impossible and foolish. I can try to point out where I think things might head but as with any discussion like this, it is projection. Bear with me, as fitting this into words often involves miscommunication of certain points.

What is pretty prevelant in my generation and in American society in general is a sort of cultural detachment that I'm sure we're all familiar with. Our information comes at us from many different sources and pretty much all of them are distant and intangible. I've certainly found it hard (and there will be others who agree) to find motivation when surrounded by so many conflicting and depressing stories. I'm sure this has been discussed to death.

Clinton was a democrat and to begin with he had promise (he played the saxaphone for chrissake's!) , yet he did some nasty things to other places and all we seemed to be concerned about was whether he got his jollies under the desk or not (This may seem an unfair generalisation, I'm sure there were plenty of people out protesting but I'm talking about overall). This brings to mind the more recent issues over here when we got really hung up on whether or not the BBC had been irresponisble in its reportage, when the real issue was whether we were being irresponsible invading Iraq.

With Bush, things seem a little different. With every slip up that he and his associates make, his opposition (and by this I mean the public, not Kerry) get's a little stronger and more sure of itself. I don't know why this is, but perhaps it's because these slip ups are far more visible and abhorrent. Guantanamo Bay and Enron spring to mind. By putting his cards on the table like this gives a more defined image as to just what it is that needs to be fixed.

I think as a direct result of both the Enron scandal and of the Bush administration's handling of post 9/11, we now have movies like The Corporation and Farenheit 9/11. These are only movies, but are indicitive of a cultural shift by their visiblity and people's willingness to take on board what they are saying. The climate that makes movies like these acceptable also allows movies like Super Size Me, which although off the Bush topic, are addressing and reinforming attitudes of globalisation and personal health while helping people to remember that they are the ones who are in control, they have to take these issues into their own hands to effect change.

Bush may be going backwards on the issues we mention above like pro/anti choice, gay marriage, but is it likely in today's climate of information sharing and protest (brought on in many cases by Bush's prescence and actions) that he would be able to take them back to their draconian conclusions?
I think that personal networks like these are being built now, through the necessity of being under an opressive regieme, that will greatly benefit how the country is run and how the people communicate their wants and needs to those who put into effect those changes.

Perhaps you're right. Perhaps this would happen with or without Bush. But with him in it seems that people need to and are remembering that the power lies with them. With less of a hard-liner like Kerry in place, I fear a sort of comfort zone where people feel that they are being catered for and so don't feel the need to get up and make themselves counted by forging these networks that stop this sort of thing happening again. Perhaps if we don't learn the hard lessons now, it'll just make them harder when the inevitabley come round again.
 
  

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