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Robbie goes kinda Joy Division, yes?

 
  

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Jack The Bodiless
20:41 / 09.10.04
Yeah, I like it when he lays ownership to my standards. Makes me feel all dirty.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:01 / 12.10.04
I can't believe some of you think this doesn't sound like Joy Division, the last quarter of the latest song is completely referential- how do I know this, because I watched him sing the bloody thing on Jonathan Ross.

Similarities? The music, the phrasing? cube, you're hearing it because it's there.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
16:37 / 12.10.04
"how do I know this, because I watched him sing the bloody thing on Jonathan Ross"

Why does this make your opinion any more or less valid than us mere mortals who have simply heard the song? Was he doing an Ian Curtis impression?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:34 / 12.10.04
I agree with Kit-Cat - if it sounds like anything from a certain era, it's the Human League. The vocal stylings at the beginning and stuff.

I know this, because I just got myself a cheese and tomato sandwich.
 
 
The Natural Way
18:54 / 12.10.04
Jackox:

Jealous? Well, I don't suppose now you've made up yr mind it could be an argument I'd ever win.... So jealous it is. Robbie fucks me off because I'm jealous. I want to be the local hero and slag off Gary Barlow on a throne.

I tried to illustrate a few annoying things and did so loudly. Yr entitled to yr mature, well balanced, "I'm not really bothered, me" opinion. In fact, I wouldn't expect anything less, Jack.
 
 
Spaniel
09:11 / 13.10.04
The whole notion of liking/disliking celebs could do with a whole lot of unpacking, I reckon.
 
 
Spaniel
09:15 / 13.10.04
Wedding so *is* jealous of Bobsy Billiams.
 
 
_Boboss
09:24 / 13.10.04
the bit on jonathan ross where he danced like a chicken before hanging himself was electric!!

(duffy goes to the prozac shop meeting arthur baker on the way and the anonymous bassist lengthens the strap til the axe knocks his knees. you can see it all so obviously.)

i thought everyone knew that runce was really jason 'have a go on granny' orange?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:25 / 13.10.04
Jack: to engage with those lyrics, I guess I did base my interpretation of 'Something Beautiful' on the video, and on that first line, and it seems I was mistaken. Nonetheless, I tend to assume that videos get artist approval and you can this hold a bad video against someone. I don't understand how much we disagree on 'Come Undone' - I say it's a whinge about being famous, you say it's about his love/hate feelings about being in the public eye - to an extent, this is just a subjective argument about how much the "hate" bit annoys us or not. Personally, I find it hard to even read those lyrics: I don't necessarily mind self-pity, but I cannot shake the impression that in 'Come Undone' Williams wants us to feel sorry for him because he is famous. The funny thing is, I probably do... So I guess what rankles is that he expresses this self-pity so badly (aesthetically). "They're selling razorblades and mirrors in the street" - no, they're not. There might be a dispenser in the Groucho Club, though.

Again, this is all subjective, blah blah blah, but I think the former Seth summed up the folly of trying to express everything 'objectively' when talking about Lightning Bolt here. The issue of to what extent people ought to be reasonable/thoughtful when slagging off pop stars came up here recently... Generally I guess my position these days is that people are always going to do it, and the solution is for people who like the band or artist in question is to write something good in response. Step up. That's what I try to do, anyway...
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:57 / 13.10.04
Yeah, but it's practically impossible to write a mature, cogent response to something that essentially fails even to be bothered to engage with the subject in the first place, cf the recent Keane/Gene thread, this one... Obviously it's impractical at best to write about music in any meaningful sense without being subjective. However, too many times bands/artists the writer doesn't like are dismissed using language that implies that the writer's subjective opinion has an objective basis in fact. This is done because the writer feels comfortable that the majority of his readers will agree with him, or at least, not disagree sufficiently to rebutt his comments - it's coming from the safety of what's considered to be a shared consensus. In short, it's a safe, lazy, under-examined position to take, the kind the writer would be up in arms about were someone to perform the same safe, lazy, under-examined hatchet job on someone he admired and respected.

Take the 'pop v. proper music' argument - your recent excellent review of the Annie album on Plan B is advertised as another skirmish in a war against precisely that kind of safe, lazy, under-examined entrenched opinion that only music made with bits of wood can possibly be valid. How many times have I heard you rail, yea verily unto the stars themselves, that this kind of indie-boy mentality needs kicking into touch before we all become worse than Tory (I paraphrase you badly, match)?

Anyway. The video to 'Something Beautiful' was the result of a competition for his fans to audition to be in the new video, whereby the auditions were filmed and the whole thing became the video. If it's a comment on reality-pop shows, it's certainly an affectionate one.

What I actually said about 'Come Undone' was that it "is very likely to be about his unhealthy incestuous love/hate relationship with the media/press/paparazzi", not that it's "about his love/hate feelings about being in the public eye" - the difference is that 'Come Undone' appears to be a song sung to the media, not just the usual Bobsy Billiams mantra about how he actually isn't all that happy, can't get a girlfriend who likes him for him, and he's on anti-depressants, thanks for asking. Oh, and the razorblades and mirrors line? HE's a recovering coke n' booze addicted pop star living in LA. His experience may be slightly different to your own, and the mataphor's not that clunky.

I must reiterate that I'm not a massive Bobsy Billiams fan. It just tends to activate my dormant thug gene when I see what appears to be socionormative bully-boy behaviour, even when it's translated to a pop-culture figure who probably doesn't even exist...

Oh, and Wedding is so jealous of our Bobsy. Look at his post above. See how he's trying to be all amenable, through his clenched buttocks and gritted earlobes, and failing, failing so BAD, seeming all stiff and offended instead. He might as well have a moustache.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:32 / 13.10.04
Yeah, but Jack, as much as your hatred of bullying / mob mentality is a very admirable/likeable personality trait, I think you sometimes see it when it's not there. Is Barbelith ganging up on Robbie Williams? I don't think so: in fact, when I first ventured into this thread I found it much less one-sided and hostile than I'd expected.

However, too many times bands/artists the writer doesn't like are dismissed using language that implies that the writer's subjective opinion has an objective basis in fact. This is done because the writer feels comfortable that the majority of his readers will agree with him, or at least, not disagree sufficiently to rebutt his comments - it's coming from the safety of what's considered to be a shared consensus.

But as I was trying to convey with my link to that Lightning Bolt thread, describing your subjective opinions as if they were objective is just basic rhetoric, and I don't think a) that we can ever get away from that, or b) that we should try. I think a lot of great writing would be lost if people weren't allowed to do this.

Nor do I agree that it's always done when preaching to the converted: if I were to write "Girls Aloud are better in every conceivable way than DJ Shadow: FACT!" on Barbelith, I would probably have been motivated to phrase what's actual just a statement of personal preference in such a hyperbolic, unreasonable way precisely because of an anticipated lack of consensus (specifically, the suspicion that if I just said "I prefer Girls Loud to DJ Shadow", there'd be just as much outrage anyway, so I might as well just pre-empt it).
 
 
haus of fraser
12:49 / 13.10.04
just going off on a tangent- you got me thinkin with

I guess I did base my interpretation of 'Something Beautiful' on the video, and on that first line, and it seems I was mistaken. Nonetheless, I tend to assume that videos get artist approval and you can this hold a bad video against someone.

and thought it would make a good thread on its own...
 
 
haus of fraser
13:29 / 13.10.04
sorry...
link to video thread
Here
 
 
Haus of Mystery
13:51 / 13.10.04
The commonly perpetuated idea that people are jealous of famous people, I find pretty offensive. I wouldn't swap my life with a cretin like Williams, leaping and gurning through a million CDUK appearances, nor any of the many hordes who populate Heat magazine. Believe it or not a life at the Groucho is not everyone's idea of happiness.

Enjoy the Greatest Hits!
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
18:38 / 13.10.04
Oh, don't worry, I don't actually believe that you or anyone else on this thread is jealous of Williams. Except Runce. Runce is N-V pigsonified. Fact.

Fly, I can understand articulating an arbitrary point such as taste in music as qualitative fact as a rhetorical flourish in writing. But when your only point is that articulation, it's no longer a flourish, part of the writer's grab-bag of styles and tics - it's just a point like any other. In a discussion about Robbie Williams' new single, for example - its similarity to Joy Division/Human League, Tintin, etc etc - comparisons could include how the timbre of Williams' voice is deeply unsuited to this kind of material, how his articulation is too precise because he's overly keen on having his only songwriting contribution - the lyrics - noticed and appreciated, so desperate is he for some kind of credibility... these points aren't based in fact, they're based on preconceived notions of how '80s-style pop should be arranged, produced and performed, and preconceived prejudiced attitudes towards Williams's voice and towards his lyrics, but it's valid when couched within the framework of a post about the single and its obvious immediate musical antecedents. It's arguable, but it's valid. On the other hand, a short, sharp post simply saying "How can any of you like this song, Williams is just a twat with a punchable face" is nothing really to do with the subject matter, and just a pointless iteration of personal dislike. What's more, it's not even capable of a mature, reasoned response - how do you counter "I HATE HIS STUPID ASS FACE" with an interesting reply? No, you ignore it for the vapid threadrot it is. Equally, a one-off post on your blog simply stating that Coldplay suck, and suck hard is - ah - safe, lazy and under-examined, I believe I said.
 
 
The Natural Way
20:43 / 13.10.04
No, aaarggh! How can I convey the fact that I really do respect yr take, Jack? I like the fact that you don't get caught up in matters of taste, etc. There's nothing stiff about it.

Unless Robbie Williams is involved.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:11 / 14.10.04
I pretty much agree with all of your last post, Jack. Although the blog entry you mention was a link to someone else's piece about a variety of things, and I pulled the section about Coldplay out specifically to wind you up in the context of this thread and others...
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:26 / 14.10.04
You mean like I called you a hipster on my blog to wind you up? Damn! Fell for my own dirty trick...

Runce, your sudden stiffness on the subject of Bobsy has been duly noted. Your tumescence is hardly a surprise - he's a pretty lad. Suddenly your jealousy becomes more understandable. I feel the same way about Jim from Neighbours, if that helps.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
11:38 / 14.10.04
Some thoughts on His New Hit Single:

No real bridges in the song, no pauses, one tempo throughout. Just a pummeling relentless dirge complete with faux-posh/New romantic singing.
The bit where he says 'the comb in my fro', you can actually hear how pleased he is with himself.
I really can't imagine listening to this at home or in a club. Ideal therefore for TV.
So, no, still think it's shit.

Maybe Robbie was cute in the 'Back For Good' vid, but too many pies and too much coke now.

Still can't shake that innate desire to BE HIM, though. Damn.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:38 / 14.10.04
I feel the same way about Jim from Neighbours, if that helps.

Who wouldn't - he owns most of Newport.
 
 
haus of fraser
12:14 / 15.10.04
a wedding? jealous of Robbie williams?
 
 
Spaniel
13:35 / 15.10.04
Is Copey's Brick jealous of A Wedding?

End threadrot
 
  

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