BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Voudon Gnostic Workbook

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
petunia
12:51 / 23.06.07
Why do people always mention Castaneda, a fiction writer, amongst other occult/spiritual authors?
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
16:14 / 23.06.07
I'd check out this thread for a discussion on that and related topics. It's a pretty loaded/touchy topic and I wouldn't want to derail this thread too much.
 
 
EvskiG
18:07 / 23.06.07
Why do people always mention Castaneda, a fiction writer, amongst other occult/spiritual authors?

Because I don't think he's the only fiction writer on that list.
 
 
Quantum
18:13 / 23.06.07
There are reliable witness reports of him in later life travelling around with a bunch of people very like the gang he describes, and his wife wrote some corroborating stuff. Anyway, offtopic, sorry.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
19:18 / 23.06.07
Sorry, hope I didn't come off snippy. I just figured it was a huge topic and there was already a thread delving into it at length.

Me, I figure that whole list were fiction writers, personally. Clutterbuck, Mathers's Sekret Masters and Don Juan are all hanging out in the same bar somewhere, I imagine.

Me, I'm just really interested in the "has anyone actually used the VGN" topic here.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
19:29 / 23.06.07
Also, regarding possible Vodoun initiations, you can buy an initiation from certain (sometimes purely self-styled) Houngans. I mean, the legitimacy of such things is completely up in the air, but it's not that difficult.
 
 
pony
19:54 / 23.06.07
I've heard from a few acquaintances that spend time in Haiti in the 90's that it was common for there to be a financial exchange in many initiations, and that it wasn't seen as inappropriate at all. I'd be curious to know if that's also the case with practitioners outside of Haiti. Perhaps I should find a more general Vodou thread, or just take the question to "stupid magic questions".
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
20:33 / 23.06.07
Well, as I understand it, (and I'm far from the boards' Vodoun expert) that sort of financial transaction is completely normal and kosher. But what I'm getting at is that there are also people who flat out sell initiations. No muss, no fuss, no participation in or knowledge of the tradition necessary. There's a difference... right?

Not that this is unheard of in many religious/occult circles. I knew a guy on the Ren Faire circuit who for $200 bucks could "make you a Witch".
 
 
pony
21:33 / 23.06.07
definitely a difference, yes. i've always just assumed that if a guy like bertieaux was going to devote decades of his life to a system at least somewhat based on a specific trad, he'd at least go to the effort of going through a basic, legitimate initiation. i could very well have too much faith in humanity, though.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
07:02 / 24.06.07
I guess having read a bit on Voudun and related religions and having worked with the VGW and read up on Bertiaux that I don't share your faith in humanity. At least where he's concerned. Which isn't to say you can't learn from him, just that I find his really being an initiated Houngan hard to believe.

YMMV.
 
 
illmatic
09:20 / 24.06.07
i've always just assumed that if a guy like bertieaux was going to devote decades of his life to a system at least somewhat based on a specific trad

That's certainly not what the book reads like. See my comments about "too much cheese" above.
 
 
Pyewacket The Elder
16:45 / 24.06.07
I was in Treadwells in London saturday and I see they had copies of a Bertiaux book "Cosmic Meditation" which appears to have been released recently. Didn't buy it myself but thought it might be of interest to some!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:17 / 25.06.07
Michael Bertiaux's line of transmission comes from House Jean-Maine, an aristocratic lineage of Haitian Vodou with Gnostic leanings.
 
 
illmatic
08:44 / 25.06.07
Yeah, but this always appeared ficitious to me. Aristocratic Haitian Gnostics?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:32 / 25.06.07
Dunno. Stranger things have happened. Wouldn't like to make that call myself. There is a sense of a line of transmission about Bertiaux's material somewhere, beneath the more overt sci-fi sex magic elements and the thinly-veiled cottaging instructions.

What jumps out at me the most about the Bertiaux Voodoo stuff is the seeming absence of the Lwa. You have occasional reference to them in the book, such as his "Grimoire Ghede" section (which, as far as I can recall, didn't really have as much to do with Ghede and mysteries of boneyard as you might expect from the title), but other than that they don't really seem to be there very much. There's not really very much Ogun, or Legba, or Erzulie Freda, or any of them. So I don't really get where its coming from. It all comes across as a bit "astral" to me, without much reference to nature and ancestors and place, so I don't really get it. It's like having a Tantra that doesn't have anything to do with the body or the senses. The VGW material I've looked doesn't seem to get you building close personal relationships with the Lwa - which, to my mind, is what Voodoo is all about.

But having said that, I'm not sure if the contents of the VGW can really be taken as a snapshot of what people in Le Coulevre Noir* actually get up to. Individual practitioners might take that material as a starting point and do interesting stuff with it, or they might not, depending on the person. I think it's always all about the practitioner and what they make of stuff, rather than the system, cos people can take really fascinating material and do something rubbish with it, and vice versa.

* Le Coulevre Noir - not to be confused with Le Coulevre Blanc, the hair metal band that Bertiaux managed in the 80s.
 
 
Enamon
19:18 / 26.06.07
Well I don't claim to know anything concerning the subject at hand but a quick glance at the table of contents and I see "Transyuggothian Power Secrets". Somehow I doubt that Lovecraftian references are all that common in the Voudon tradition...
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
23:24 / 26.06.07
Never met any of the LCN, so I don't know how they roll outside of anecdotes. That's interesting to know about the line of transmission, though. The "mighty work on the astral" vibe of much of the text, and Bertiaux himself, has always left me a bit suspicious of his claims of full on initiation.

But hey, whatever works. It's just not my cup of tea.
 
 
--
01:55 / 27.06.07
Well, the LCN/OTOA has a website called "Technicians of the Sacred" that has a lot of material on the history of the group. Frankly, I find it kind of dull reading (lots of stuff about grades and lines of succession and that sort of thing). I do like how the LCN is utterly against animal sacrifice. I also like how they seem to be more open to homosexual magicians (in fact, from what I've read, there are some branches of the LCN composed only of homosexuals). Which is refreshing considering how biased many other occult belief systems are re: homosexuality (sadly, my favorite occult writer, Kenneth Grant, falls into that category, which is a real shame, but I guess no one's perfect).

There is an interesting Livejournal community called "The Serpent Kalas." The user name is "couleuvra". Quite a few of the members seem to have been involved with the LCN/OTOA. That might be a good place to go to with questions about how people have benifited from using the VGW I suppose? I myself have never really used it for magical practice... hell, the first lessons alone involve drinking liquor which kind of disqualifies me from the get-go. I do like the whole section about creating your own bibles & holy books based on your own personal mytholgies and cosmic symbols. Seems very AOS I would think!

Sometimes I wonder if the VGW only makes sense if the reader has gone through the 4 year study program that precedes it. Each year costs about $200 it would seem. I managed to get my hands on the Year Four course and it's pretty riveting stuff... a little easier to understand than the VGW, if only because it seems to follow some sort of itinerary. There's this one crazy section about "Proto-Icelandic Sexual Radioactivity" that compares the gods of Norse mythology with those of the Voodoo Lwa. Like, Freyja & Erzulie and that kind of thing. "Tantra without the body?" Hell, in the Year Four course it's claimed that you can do phallus magic without the phallus! Plus there's the usual long Q&A sections Bertiaux seems to love... "Is it true that you become a werewolf in your sex magic?" Now there's a question for a job application.

I think my biggest problem with the VGW is how tedious it can be. Some sections are very, very good... as I've said, I think I like the Oerg-8 sections the best. But some parts of it are just so dull and boring. I do have a huge fetish for techno-jargon, but even I have limits. It also seems to be put together in a very sloppy way. It is obvious that the whole thing wasn't written in one year or anything like that, as some of the material has dates (for example, the "Grimoire Guedhe" appears to have been written in 1978, while the "Zothryian Metapsychology" papers are from 1979). There's a lot of times in the book where one paper will end with something like "In our next lesson we'll talk about (subject)" only for the following lesson to be about a completely different topic, or there will be many times where Bertiaux will claim that one particular topic is the highest form of occultism (like IFA) only to make the same claim later on about, say, Shintotronics. I don't know if the book was assembled in this way to disorient the reader on purpose, or if there really is no rhyme or reason to the whole thing. Even the ending papers seem kind of random, as if the book could have ended at any point with no real difference. Oh well.

In Kenneth Grant's "Hecate's Fountain" there is made a reference to a book that Bertiaux "transmitted" called "The Book of the Meon." Indeed, excerpts from this work appear in the VGW, mostly at the start of part two IIRC. Wonder if that will ever be released one day? Thinking the same thing about the long-advertised "Atlantean-Zorthyrian Workbook." I do have to hand it to Bertiaux, he's prolific.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:51 / 27.06.07
I do like how the LCN is utterly against animal sacrifice.

I don't like that at all, actually. As it suggests animal sacrifice in Vodou is some gruesome bloodthirsty affair that LCN stands strongly against - as opposed to being a matter of people in rural communities who rear their own livestock for food making said act sacred by dedicating the animals to deity. I find the idea of anyone being outraged by animal sacrifice in Vodou, yet who might routinely chomp away at a chicken burger or a McDonalds, quite hypocritical. Animals dedicated to the Lwa are generally well treat, and when they are killed, it is done so as a sacred act with respect for the life that is being taken and dedicated to the Divine. As a vegetarian, I have much less problem with this than with the automated murder factories that mechanically execute millions of animals to turn them into shrink-wrapped processed food on a daily basis. I think that if you're going to kill something to eat, then you should at least be honest about it and have a bit of respect for what you're doing.

I do have to hand it to Bertiaux, he's prolific.

One vast incomprehensible, largely channeled, tome and a few booklets in 30-40 years?
 
 
--
14:50 / 27.06.07
In addition to the VGW you also have to take into account the four year courses, each with run up to over 300-400 pages. Not to mention the newsletter Instrumentarum or whatever it is they call it. And the new book "Ontolological Grafitti". Plus who knows how much unpublished material there is? So, yeah, I'd call that prolific...
 
 
*
17:30 / 27.06.07
In that sense, I think most of us are deserving of that kind of praise. Which is nice to think about, as long as one doesn't unwarrantedly use it as evidence for the value of one's contributions to, say, the study of vodou.
 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
  
Add Your Reply