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Status Anxiety

 
 
Opps!!
19:37 / 22.09.04
The other day i finally got round to watching the programme 'Status Anxiety' that was on Channel 4 here in the UK (missed it the first time round) and fuck me was it good (well i have watched it 4 times the the last week). Now i find that there is an extended DVD version and a book. Have any of you lot read/seen these and do they add anything to the tv version.

Did others, like me, find that a weight was almost lifted after watching it. I believe that this is the true purpose of philosophy and i have been for relaxed over the last few days because of this.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:32 / 22.09.04
Is this in the Head Shop by accident?

If not, could you tell us a bit more about this programme and what it said?
 
 
Atyeo
13:35 / 23.09.04
I saw this programme a while-a-go and was also impressed.

I thought his view of the cut-throat, help yourself society in the US was very enlightening.

He believes that unlike virtually all other countries in the world, which have or until recently had a clear class system, the US has had no history of subordination and 'knowing where you stand in society'. Therefore, Americans suffer from acute Status Anxiety. This leads to much more crime (because people believe they should have as much as anyone else) and a much weaker support structure for the unemployed and homeless.

A very convincing arguement that I hadn't really considered prior to watching the programme.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:02 / 23.09.04
That theory sounds like utter nonsense- no history of subordination, what is slavery? The US has an expansive history of racial supression but it's completely washed over. If Native Americans and those who were slaves weren't of a different class than no one is.

The lack of welfare in the US stems from the fact that no one votes for anyone who would actually introduce any. Perhaps this is something to with status anxiety but it's not to do with the lack of a class system that very clearly exists (else where does the term white trash come from?). Crime levels are effected by the fact that white America ignores the class system and instead of addressing the idea that people need help through government vote for people who whine about opportunity. In short it is quite clear where Americans stand within their own class system and that's why I think this theory is a cobbled together bunch of excuses for the middle classes to bathe in the glory of their own uprising.

Now perhaps I need to know more about this so that I can add it to my hate list.
 
 
Ganesh
14:13 / 23.09.04
I would imagine US 'status anxiety' is more likely to arise from the gulf between the seductive myth of the American Dream ('anyone can make it if they try hard enough') and the reality of the yawning social gap between haves and have-nots (as compared with countries with more of an established welfare tradition). Also, more generations of Americans have grown up with television/advertising, and are perhaps more likely to measure their self-worth in terms of their success/failure in obtaining that which they see onscreen.
 
 
Atyeo
09:03 / 24.09.04
Admittedly, it would be hard to place slavery in this model but this is only my recollection of the programme and so shouldn't be taken as a definitive account of his philosophies.

Saying that, it is undeniable that the US has a different class system to other countries in the West.

Amongst the West there is a well established history (and I mean thousands of years) of cultural status.

Of course, in all societies there is a 'white trash' element but I believe he was making the point that in 'old' countries there is an established history of first and second estates. As the US is a new country it doesn't have this belief 'weaved' into the social fabric.

I can state for a fact that in the UK society, in general, does still have a very strong class system. For Christ's sake, a memberof the royal family is on the front cover of a tabloid every week.

The US does have it's Dream because anyone can make it (or believes they can) whereas in the Europe most people wouldn't even dream of becoming aristocracy.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:42 / 24.09.04
I'm not clear on something, Atyeo, so maybe you can explain it for me: is it your view (and/or that of the autjor, Alain De Botton) that a strong class system is a good thing, in that it teaches people who live in poverty to 'know their place' and thus leads to a lower crime rate?
 
 
Ganesh
09:47 / 24.09.04
The US does have it's Dream because anyone can make it (or believes they can) whereas in the Europe most people wouldn't even dream of becoming aristocracy.

But, given the relative difficulty of 'making it' within either societal structure (the flipside of the American Dream being a less welfare-supported culture - perhaps partly because those who don't 'make it' are more likely to be seen as lazy or lacking in willpower - and a greater rich/poor gap), the former arguably results in more 'status anxiety'.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:17 / 24.09.04
I tend to ignore anything anyone says about 'Hampstead liberals' and the like as ill-thought out rubbish aimed at lazy stereotypes, EXCEPT for anything involving Alain de Botton, which tends to be about dealing with the stresses life brings if you're a middle-aged, well-educated white male who doesn't have to do the 9 to 5 grind to support a family and can afford several foreign holidays a year.

I'm just wondering though, the American dream sounds suspiciously close to what Capitalism is all about, so, did the American dream become the Capitalist ideal of a poor man working his way to become rich, or did the Capitalism ethic become the American Dream?
 
 
Atyeo
10:44 / 24.09.04
I really should read the book before opening my big mouth...

I'm sure Alain would do alot better job of explaining his own theories.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:46 / 24.09.04
This is the Horatio Alger principle, isn't it? Horatio Alger spawns a culture in which one is told that if one is industrious, hard-working and moral, one will take one's place at the rich man's table, either through professional success, adoption, marriage or unexpected revelations of paternity and ensuing inheritance.

As such, possibly the point is not that it is good that people "know their place", per se, but that, given that if you are born poor (or black, to address Anna de L's point, or especially poor and black) you are statistically massively unlikely to break even, much less take that place at the top table, and that trying is just going to lead to a sense of failure, deception, anger and ultimately criminality - the old saw that showing kids on minimum wage or below the desirability of a lifestyle of designer clothes and high technology will only end badly.

Of course, that depends on deciding that the best way to deal with the inequality of rich and poor is to make it clear that the ladder has been pulled up, so the poor remain both trash and resigned to being trash (There's a thread on the use of terms like "white trash" which may make instructive reading... will dig it up later). Whether this will lead to less angst and criminality or just differently-motivated angst and criminality is a bit of a different question.
 
 
Atyeo
10:48 / 24.09.04
I'm not clear on something, Atyeo, so maybe you can explain it for me: is it your view (and/or that of the autjor, Alain De Botton) that a strong class system is a good thing, in that it teaches people who live in poverty to 'know their place' and thus leads to a lower crime rate?

I recall that he wasn't really judging which was ultimately better but he did believe that a class system does remove alot of the modern day 'status anxiety'.
 
 
No star here laces
07:36 / 08.10.04
I've just read the book.

To maybe more accurately re-state de Botton's thesis:

Human beings tend to care deeply about what "people in general" think about them. For example, being snubbed by a snotty record shop owner can leave you feeling really shitty, even though you know it shouldn't matter. And getting a smile from an attractive stranger can make your day.

This sense of what people think of you tends to impact on your own view of how "good" you are, i.e. how deserving of love.

We can sum up this sense of what "people in general think about you" as your "status" in society. So, in ancient Sparta, being muscular and unable to read led to high social status. In Samoa being fat might lead to high status etc.

According to the theory, human beings have always had a sense of status. But, in medieval days, when a peasant was a peasant for life, and a noble was a noble for life, one's status was less psychologically impactful because there was very little you could do about it. So nobody had to feel ashamed just for being a peasant. They might be impoverished and/or downtrodden, but they didn't have to feel it was their fault. God and/or the king had ordained it, and they were powerless.

However, in modern-day "meritocratic" society, the common belief is that if one is rich, one has earned it. Ergo, if one is poor, one must be worthless.

Add to this the effect of the mass media which continually presents us with images of the better off, inviting us to make negative comparisons with our own lifestyle, and you have a recipe for "status anxiety".

De Botton studiously avoids making any value judgement about which age was better, but states his aim as a discussion of the issue in the hope that eventually some of this anxiety can be alleviated.

He concentrates very thoroughly on the economic part of the equation, making the assumption that status in the modern world is primarily economically driven.

I think the concept of "status anxiety" is a valid one, and not one with strong implications, but more an interesting area to discuss.

The hole in de Botton's formulation, to my mind, is the conception of status as monolithic and focused on money.

I'd see it more as a series of discrete groups within society. In some status is driven by education and employment in an intellectual field. In some by a measure of artistic success. In some by criminal notoriety.

I find this last one key to explaining the cycle of ethnic minority crime - if a group is discriminated against and prevented from achieving status in mainstream society, it makes perfect sense for people to try and achieve status in criminal society instead. Which is a (maybe too) neat explanation for why, despite all the evidence that crime does not pay particularly well, people still get pulled into it.

Finally, I'd really like to see the concept of fame integrated into this analysis. I don't think it makes much sense without it.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:57 / 09.10.04
I'm guessing wildly but I'd say that he concentrates on economics because that's what matters to him. Does he look at all at any of the non-economics driven societies? How anxious are the Amish, for example?
 
  
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