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Don't You Want To Talk About Music?

 
  

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Regrettable Juvenilia
13:09 / 21.09.04
So the Music Forum seems pretty dead, and I'm just wondering why... The most popular threads seem to be fairly arbitrary list-type things, and whilst some people can make these worth reading, a lot of people seem happy just to type in the title of a song or album or even a well-known band ("The Smiths?" - yeah, thanks) without explanation. Threads about the artists that have other music forums on fire seem to only interest a handful of people... So what's gone wrong? Is nobody here listening to music (specifically new music), or do people just not have much to say about it?
 
 
Haus of Mystery
17:13 / 21.09.04
Perhaps it's because these threads so often descend into slanging matches of the 'they're shit, no they're not' variety. I've often thought about posting when I really like a new thing, but the idea of someone snottily proving why I shouldn't like them, or why they're totally derivative of blahdy-blah, makes me recoil. Maybe I'm being precious, but I love, love, love music. I can't get through the day without music; but for some reason a Barbe-rumble just kills the joy of it a bit.

You are right though Fly. The music forum is deadsville at the moment which is surprising for a forum populated by people with such diverse tastes.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:17 / 22.09.04
I've often thought about posting when I really like a new thing, but the idea of someone snottily proving why I shouldn't like them, or why they're totally derivative of blahdy-blah, makes me recoil.

Well, I do know what you mean, but sometimes you have to stand up tall and take the fight to the haters, you know? Nobody can prove you shouldn't like something, and if you make a half-decent case for why you like it, I think people tend to respect that.

I'd be interested to know which you think the Music forum would benefit more from:

a) More threads about specific artists in which people who like those artists can enthuse about them.

or

b) More threads discussing specific issues in (popular) music, with a high level of debate.
 
 
Saveloy
11:52 / 22.09.04
In pre-Barbeltith days I used to love getting into b) type discussions, but I rarely have the energy or enthusiasm for them now. Probably a sign of old age - years ago it felt incredibly important and enjoyable to adopt and defend a position, or attack anything that seemed wrong-headed, but now it feels like a waste of energy. It stays interesting all the time you're developing your ideas on a particular bug-bear, but once you've honed you argument to a - fuck, what do you hone things down to? - anyway, once you've expressed a point of view in the most concise and satisfying way you can, that's pretty much it as far as interest goes; for me, anyway.

More generally I find in-depth analysis of music (or any art form, for that matter) tends to reduce my enjoyment of it. Kills it for me.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:18 / 22.09.04
Really? I find it can often be an involuntary by-product of enjoying music: I want to talk to someone about why it's so great. Maybe that doesn't count as analysis though...

I think you hone something down to an edge or a point. Something sharp, anyway.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
14:21 / 22.09.04
Knife in the face mebbe?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:27 / 22.09.04
In the voice of 'Brother Damien' from those Smirnoff Ice ads: "You read my mind..."
 
 
Char Aina
16:35 / 22.09.04
if you make a half-decent case for why you like it, I think people tend to respect that.


i dunno.
some do, some dont.
depends entirely on your definition of half decent, and assumes a willingness (or ability) to make such a case as a necessary part of enjoying something.

i think also everyone i know enjoys saying what they hate in music more than what they love.

its not ever okay to say you hate a band on here, and that scares folks off, i reckon.
 
 
Char Aina
16:39 / 22.09.04
pardon me.

its not ever okay to say you hate a band unless you are willing to spend a good few days defeding your position.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:33 / 22.09.04
I'd like to talk about R Kelly, and why he's not doing chokey, just yet. What I've seen of the evidence doesn't look so good
 
 
Ganesh
09:30 / 23.09.04
Hm. To a certain extent, I've always tended to shy away from the Music forum. I think that's partly because I've never been enormously up-to-date on the well-honed cutting-edge of music, and simply haven't heard (of) a lot of what's discussed here. That's not to say I haven't started threads on the music that does excite me (eg. The Smiths); I suspect the appeal is limited, though.

To a lesser extent, I've been put off by the tribalism, the 'anybody who likes/dislikes X deserves to die slowly on a blunt spike' thing. The tribal stuff is, of course, part and parcel of loving music, but if there's no meat behind it, it's just annoying. The Music seems to attract more of the hollow variety than other forums.

What I do miss (and this may be rosy nostalgia talking, as well as selective abstraction for the reasons above) is the meta-thread. I used to enjoy discussing particular phenomena or movements in music (eg. 'gay/queer music' or the underpinnings of pop, or whatever) and I actually don't find that analysis kills my enjoyment. I quite like picking through the lyrical bones...
 
 
illmatic
10:22 / 23.09.04
I think generally part of this is the lack of new posters. Same old faces, same old slagging matches to a degree. Perhaps we've all got Barb ennui a bit. I think the lack of new posters passing through leads to a general lack of excitement (and shit-fights which are all part of the fun). I think one or two commited posters can really liven up a forum, but if you've been flying the flag for for a long time, you can lose enthusiasm (Flux springs to mind here, and perhaps yourself, Fly?)

With regards to new music, I find that I don't listen to as much as I used to, in terms of "new in the shops this week", but I'm still discovering new things all the time - (latest source of joy - Gene Clarke's "White Lght" album) which I'd be happy to talk about - and do, the "Krautrock" thread being the last example I can think of. We discussed the virtues of backtracking vs. neophilia in the pub recently - personally, I'm not that much of a neophile - having, I dunno, spent a large proportion of the last twenty years getting madly excited about new music my focus has just shifted, I guess. Having said that, that's one of the things I really like about this forum - I can rely on other posters here to turn me on to new things that I might otherwise miss.
 
 
Ganesh
10:30 / 23.09.04
... one of the things I really like about this forum - I can rely on other posters here to turn me on to new things that I might otherwise miss.

Yeah, that's true. I've previously started at least two threads specifically saying 'I like X, what else d'you think I'd like?' and both times I've been, as you say, turned on to pure gold. Probably time I did that again...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:57 / 23.09.04
So interestingly, as far as I can see we've got (not for the first time on Barbelith) that situation where people are saying two different, conflicting things about why a forum might not be appealing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but toksik seems to be saying "people in general like to be able to slag off the music they don't like in a fairly offhand manner, or a manner that's vitriolic but shouldn't be taken too seriously (because it's also hyperbolic), and here you can't do that without being asked to explain what you mean and why". Whereas Ganesh is saying "I personally don't like all that hyperbolic, vitriolic slagging off of music without any explanation, and here it goes on too much". Now, it could be that Ganesh has a much lower tolerance for that kind of thing than most people, but I still think that it's difficult for both viewpoints to be entirely accurate.

Personally, in terms of striking a balance I think we should be always aiming to create a forum wherein humour and frivolity have their place, but intelligent commentary is valued above all. I think people are pretty good these days at staying out of threads started to talk about a band other people like but they don't, unless said band have been in the public eye or music press a lot recently...
 
 
Ganesh
11:08 / 23.09.04
I probably do have a lower tolerance for empty hyperbole without at least some degree of unpacking/explanation. Froth alone ain't particularly thirst-quenching.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
12:09 / 23.09.04
Generally, I don't post here because I feel like I don't know enough about music, or at least the music people want to talk about. I've been listening to a lot more new music than I have been in a while, but having listened to so little for quite a while can't really offer much more than 'Auf Der Maur are awesome, I just saw them live, does anyone have the album?' type comments. Which I don't think counts as the kind of intelligent commentary that's required...

The recommendation threads mentioned by Ganesh are good, if only because unless there's a thread about the kind of music I've been listening to for ages (grumpy old singer-songwriters and more or less anything that calls itself ska) I can't imagine that anyone wants to know about it.
 
 
Saveloy
13:58 / 23.09.04
Arms House, Arms House:

"I find it can often be an involuntary by-product of enjoying music: I want to talk to someone about why it's so great."

Oh yeah, definitely, it's a great pleasure in itself. But the unfortunate side-effect is that some of the mystery - I wish I could find a better word for the 'thing' that the undissected experience has, but I can't so it'll have to do for now - is destroyed. I don't think this is always the case - least of all, in fact, when it's straight-forward enthusiasm - but it seems to be the net result; the more I read and talk about music, the less it moves me, generally (I have to leave room here for specific instances where the opposite has turned out to be true). I have to go and lie down in a quiet room until all the opinions and observations have settled down and stopped rattling around in my head. This might sound a bit crap, absurd even, but I like art to be beyond anyone's control, to be an independant beastie. The minute you start discussing it you start the process of putting fences round it. It becomes domesticated. Moo. This is similar to the effect that those old post-modern winks to the audience and self referential touches have: they say "it's okay, you're perfectly safe here, this whole terrain has been mapped and colonised, feel free to walk around and enjoy what we've done, isn't it lovely?". Damn, I'm really struggling with this.

Actually, that's another reason I dislike analysis - I'm not very bloody good at it!
 
 
Char Aina
17:39 / 25.09.04
i think you misrepresent me, dude.

i dont like to talk shit about fans of specific musicians or bands anything like as much as i like to talk shit about the bands and their output.
ganesh was worried that he would be blasted and told to die on a blunt spike.

i too relish intelligent discussion on these things, but i do remember being a little fristrated by the assumptions flying around when we discussed kylie.
i forget who, but someone kept assuming i was an ignorant rockist fool for not enjoying the music they did.

i feel that behaviour is more akin to what ganesh is describing (although obviously not the same) in that i and my tastes were being assailed, not my posts.

music is as hard to talk about as religion if you dont want to cause offence.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:40 / 25.09.04
Speaking for myself, a lot of the reason why I haven't been very active here is that I spend a lot of time writing about music on my own site, and I'm not terribly interested in repeating a lot of that stuff here. Also, I'm involved with ILM, which I personally find to be a more engaging community for music. By the time I get to Barbelith, I mostly just want to read the comics and film forums, and a little Headshop/Conversation/Switchboard if I've got some time.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
17:31 / 26.09.04
Hmmm....There's shitloads to be said about the the music business and the changes taking place within it from publishing/royalty/new deal type angles, but I always figured that stuff would bore everybody shitless.
 
 
haus of fraser
18:21 / 27.09.04
Well as if to answer the call for new blood - here I am!
After menacing some friends that posted on here a lot I've been let in- On the subject of music postings I find that lots of music boards are very quaralsome and tedious- This community seemed much nicer! also because this isn't a specific music site you tend to sidestep the obvious 15 year old rightious affiliations and the genre specific cliques associated with boards like nme or drowned in sound.
although most of the users on the board are comicheads (which my own knowledge is limited) I still feel that the discussion on music and movies is something I can relate to and hopefully spark up a little?!
on the subject of R kelly alex i may just start a thread...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:07 / 24.01.06
A bump.

Will it help if I try to include YouSendIts or other links so that people can access MP3s of things they haven't previously heard?
 
 
Mike Modular
16:16 / 24.01.06
It certainly can't hurt, can it? Whilst we're all off exploring our various musical paths, I like the idea of a Sir Petey Raleigh bringing us actual artefacts from the New Music World, as proof of the wild claims... Your first post about Sway got me quite interested, but I don't know when I'd get round to seeking any out as I've got a big pile of CDs and a hard drive full of new albums to get through. Bringing more mp3s (or links to) into the forum might just get more of us talking about/discovering the same thing, at the same time. I guess the Top Albums thread lasted so well as people had a whole year's worth of music to enthuse about, but it's perhaps harder with newer stuff to get lots of people interested initially, before the thread gets buried way down the list.

So, er, yes, more please. I've downloaded what you've put up so far and I'll give them a listen, and maybe I'll even have something interesting to say about them...
 
 
grant
16:18 / 24.01.06
Yes, I think it would. Almost all of the new music I've been digesting lately has been in the form of singles -- songs from mix CDs, samplers and mp3 blogs. It's kind of hard for me to talk about albums or pop image because I've kind of divorced myself from that stuff. Although I *am* curious about Saul Williams' latest album... he seems to have gone all punk rock while I wasn't listening.

The most interesting things to me in this forum have always been mix-swap threads, followed by "scene" threads (the whole "weird psychedelic folk" thing, and the black metal threads), followed by conversations about recording (which are sort of few and far between -- I still want to d/l all of Withiel's new album and listen to it all in one go).
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:26 / 24.01.06
I don't really read anything to do with music any more, hence my discovering The Arcade Fire a good few years after everyone else. I don't seem to share much by way of taste in music with the big posters in this forum and really couldn't care less.
 
 
HCE
16:56 / 24.01.06
Some of the posts of yours I've liked best, flyboy, are the ones that are partway between type A and type B, the ones you describe as liking something and trying to figure out just what it is that makes it so great. There's the Avenue D thread, for example, in which you helped me think through how they manage to be both silly and sexy. I got more from listening to them after that.

Possibly things are coolish here at the moment just because we're at a low point in a cycle? Barb ennui, as suggested above.
 
 
Sniv
17:13 / 24.01.06
I like to talk about music, but like Our Lady I often get the impression that the posters on here don't like the same music as me. The overall feel seems a bit indie, by which I mean lots of small bands or artists that while probably very good, can be a bit disorienting for people that have no idea who they are. Granted though, I have found some real gems in some random posts, like Broken Social Scene, Sufjan Stevens and Deathcab for Cutie.

But there don't seem to be that many people who talk about the bands I really like (yes, I should start threads on them...) like Million Dead, Oceansize, Biffy Clyro, Aereogramme. I suppose I'm just a bit of an emo-kid at heart, and this place seems to have more indiepop kids than us backpack wearing crybabies. Yes, I know this is probably a generalisation, there a quite a few noisefiends here too, although their choice bands are all too small (and most likely brilliant) to be found on bittorrent or in hmv.

Other, non emo bands I like, like the Mars Volta or Tool seem to be conspicuous in the fact that everyone seems to hate them, and I have no interest in posting in a thread just to defend a band (although I probably will, one of these days).

I also really really hate some bands, and sometimes feel like venting, but choose not to, as not only is it a futile activity, but because every band I hate, someone else really loves, and I don't like it when people rag on my tastes so why do it to them? Anything I have to say about the Black eyed peas or Pete Doherty are going to mean fuck all to a fan, apart marking me as someone to avoid, so why bother?

Another thing I don't like to do is comment on a genre/artist I'm not too familiar with, or that's from a completely alien subculture to mine. I'd agree with what Ganesh said about music's tribalism, and I often find that making judgements about another's 'tribe' is mostly redundant (other than to expose my embarassing lack of knowledge of say, dance music or hip hop).

Anyway, that's why I don't post in here too much.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:50 / 24.01.06
I love to talk about music.

Just not with you.
 
 
Char Aina
18:43 / 24.01.06
heh.
you may have a point, y'know.
i talk endlessly about music with people, but i dont find the music forum all that alluring as a setting for that discussion.

this place seems to have more indiepop kids than us backpack wearing crybabies.

dude!
those are not two tribes, but one tribe cleft in twain by fate. go to your brother, go to your sister; they have gifts with which to fill your eastpak. they may even link to your myspace if you are polite and respect those few customs which you do not share.

extend the arm of awkward white to your kin.
you know it makes sense.
 
 
Red Cross Iodized Salt
18:53 / 24.01.06
years ago it felt incredibly important and enjoyable to adopt and defend a position, or attack anything that seemed wrong-headed, but now it feels like a waste of energy

Pretty much the same applies for me. Dunno if it's due to getting old, not caring enough, having gotten it out of my system over the years or simply being too lazy to put in the work. I'll still argue with people about music in the pub, but am fairly disinclined to do so on the internet.

I do still like talking excitedly and evangelizing about shiny new musical things that I like (go listen to Various Production everybody)...or - better yet - finding out about newer and shinier things.

Oh, and of course I like having my opinions reinforced by people who like the exact same things I do agreeing with them.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
18:54 / 24.01.06
Skipper;

They called themselves 'Tool' for a particular set of reason, one'd have to assume.

It's an obvious point to make, but surely not one that they, 'Tool,' didn't anticipate, what with them being intelligent young men with honours degrees in (major)applied bollocks, and (minor) being just a tad gauche, and so, ultimately.... just so very 'je-jeune'
 
 
Char Aina
19:33 / 24.01.06
i think the tool hate is more imagined than real, dude.
there are those who seem to feel that tool fans and people who seem a little...y'know... often overlap. i havent noticed, myself.
i dont think the band gets as much of a hammering for being crap so much as not being as good as many tool fans like to suggest, maybe.

its like when i was wee and discovered the chilli peppers. i would have been right up for a night of nonstop RHCP music and LSD, but when i suggested similar i found my friends didnt value them as highly.
i imagine if i had been a 'lither and suggested that they were the greatest funk band of all time or some such shit i would have been laughed at in much the same way as tool fans have been before.

if you say tool are awesome and explain why, i cant see a big problem. if you say that they are the only band who are truly original and who eschew the tawdry image consciousness of most other acts... well then there would be laughing and pointing. that and if you use the word 'sheeple'.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
19:35 / 24.01.06
Shaftoe: Will it help if I try to include YouSendIts or other links so that people can access MP3s of things they haven't previously heard?

I think that would be helpful (or at least, I would like it) -since I said everything else I wanted to say in the Policy thread and oh wait, right here but two years ago that's just a 'me too'. But I will download things if people tell me where to find them.
 
 
m
19:35 / 24.01.06
I was laid up after surgery a few years ago, and tried posting a few things to the music forum. I dunno if it was the folks that were kicking around Barbelith at the time, but just about everything I posted was either misread, ignored, or replied to with vague hostility. It was a little disheartening and I didn't bother to keep it up.

This thread makes me want to try again though. I'm gonna try to revive some dead threads and start some new ones. Here goes.
 
 
HCE
11:16 / 01.02.06
Sorry, I'm afraid I haven't been able to get the hang of posting here correctly.
 
  

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