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Here’s all the relevant posts that I had saved from the “Magical arts...Martial arts... two great tastes that taste great together” thread that started June 26, 2001. I’ve edited out the chatty stuff and the thread rot. Most of that was from me anyway 
quote:Lothar Tuppan posted
This is a question to PATricky and any other martial artists on the board:
Have you ever tried incorporating your martial arts styles into your magical practices?
By this I mean more than in the traditional martial ways of raising chi, qi-qong etc.
Some of the ideas I was thinking of was:
sigilized mantras being utlized in place of "Kiais", "Iais", etc.
Creating new forms that draws out the sigil by performing the form.
Drawing sigils on boards and breaking them at the height of gnosis (I'll have to wait a few ranks before I'm ready for this one).
Doing any or all of the above with Runes instead of sigils.
Does anyone have any thoughts on the above or ideas of their own along these lines?
quote:Wyrd posted
Oh, I was well impressed with this topic coming up because I've been thinking a lot about this myself.
Currently the only martial art I do is a "soft" form, i.e. T'ai Chi. However, I've had a lot of very interesting experiences with it since I started. Luckily my teacher is someone who does healing, etc. so he's quite openminded about everything in this regard. I've talked to him about shamanism, and he's interested in the runes (which incidently lead me to his class).
I broached the idea with him a couple of weeks ago about using T'ai Chi (or forms based on T'ai Chi) in order to "create space". The way I figure it there would be two versions, a simpler, more internal form for use by myself, and a more external one for use with other people. I've "created space" just about every other way I can and movement seems to be the next obvious step. He'll be running through some ideas with me in the coming weeks, so I'm looking forward to that.
I've also talked to him a lot about runes and T'ai Chi, because of the "Runic Yoga" practise, which I think you could combine very well. I'll be experimenting with them in the future.
I like a lot of your suggestions, Lothar, they sound great. Let us know how your experiments go.
Gestures and postures are very much part of a lot of rituals across the world, and I think they are very, very deep ways of creating connections. Have you read up on shamanic postures, Lothar? You might find they will spark off some other interesting ideas with what you're considering.
Looking back now with ten months of T'ai Chi under my belt, and a five months of regular Gym exercise, I would say that the more fit you are, the better these postures will work... but that's a working theory at the moment. I've done some experiments with runic yoga and shamanic postures previously, but I have a suspicion they will work much better now. Ooh, I must try that out...
I'm all excited now!
quote:Lothar Tuppan posted
Yeah. I've created space using dance before or a combination of dance and drumming but not specifically with martial arts. It seems like a logical extension of the discipline in some ways.
I've done some kundalini and I've read about the runic poses (at least from Thorrson's point of view) but I haven't done them myself yet. Are there any other sources you would recommend be check out before trying?
Other than dancing my spirits and emulating their movements through posture, in and out of journey, I've done very little with shamanic postures. What sources would you recommend?
In my experience, the more fit you are the better any magic works. The more mental and spiritual disciplines will definitely benefit from your body being able to hold and produce more energy. As above, so below. Not to mention that it's just easier to continually drum for long shamanic sessions when your muscles are fit.
quote: zerone posted
Sometimes when I'm in Karate, at a point where we've been driven to almost exaustion I'll try hold a positive thought in my head or a favourable scenario.
quote: grant posted
zerone: Sounds cool.
How does that work for you?
I really need to get back in shape...
I still practice tai chi, but I'm sooo slack about it, unless there's a lesson, I tend to put it off.
Bad me.
That said, I'd have to say any kind of qi gong (including the taiqi or tai chi or however you'd like to spell it) sort of inherently creates a magic space. You sort of begin to own that square of space through which you move (which overlaps with the ones created by the people around you, which is sort of the idea in a martial art).
Creating a form as a kind of sigiling exercise seems sort of fascinating; at first glance it also seems like something you'd have to be a real master to even attempt. Maybe there's a punk rock/chaos magic way to do it.
It'd have to be more invocative/divinatory rather than trying to get anything done (can't recall which "th-" word is which right now).
I bet you could overlap this idea with the idea of magic sports, like the ones mentioned in the Mayan ballgame thread.
I also think it'd make more sense to start by using simple qigong exercises before tackling a full-blown form, but then again (as admitted above) I'm a patently inert blob of fat protoplasm. Or at least that's how I've been feeling lately.
Mmm. Just finished a fried lunch, too.
quote: adrian reckons... posted
Whatever the food of the gods is, I'm betting it's fried.
Any regular discipline or practice can be useful, if only as a demonstration of the ability to hold attention. If it gets you fit and flexible too, all the better. And any 'energy' based practice/means of shifting attention is invaluable if you're looking to develop greater sensitivity to and ability to work with 'energy'...which is pretty much synonymous with magic. Learn different approaches, and discover whether you experience energy changes in the same ways, or if the differences are themselves instructive.
quote:PATricky posted
hahaha,
I was wondering how long it would take for martial arts to surface again in the Magik's forum
well the first thing that comes to mind was the launch of Kungfu Magazine's web site. I used some chinese charactors (in the form of an animated Gif) as a sigil for a spell promoting prosparity for new endevors. I think of this because of the basic conection of the site to Kungfu in general.
QIGONG is a VERY VAST feild . . . to explore. I've had the good fortune of meeting some Qigong Masters whose mastery already delves into the depths of magik. Ritual, miracles, longevity, healing, etc.
One of the greatest strengths of Qigong is it versility. So many different styles and types of excersises that can yeld VERY specific results. Rather than try and create a form for a purpose, one can assemble various Qigong excersises towards a specific end.
Grounding-Attunement to Universial CHI-working it to specific organs/or elements as represented by the organs which in turn may be represented by a relative planet/rune/deity-Gnosis-dispersial-Banishing-closing the form.
Not into breaking boards but I've definately sigilized the air infront of me or a wall then Palm that area emiting Chi through it.
I've definately experience powerful "magick" in working forms in class as opposed to alone. A sort of synergy were We can achieve much more (strength/endurance-wise) as a unified class than in a solitary wokout.
Talk about Unified Chi.
My Sifu talks about energy dynamics as a factor in fighting strategy: Stealing energy, guarding your energy, Returning stolen energy as force and how to cultivate your own energy so as to survive a workout.
I've heard about the Shamanic Postures haven't formally work with that.
However I'm often working my Kungfu movements in ritual and especially in Dance. Just the ability to sence energy currents and move with-in it's Tao amidst a crowded dancefloor seeking Trance has been a major factor in my emmersion into Shamanic visions.
From that point it hasn't been hard to then harness the Synergised energy of the extactic-Danced-floor for use in en-visioning.
I've been also working on focusing that same dynamic with-in Drum circles . . . and then lately taking that same method to the EPIC liminial explosions of Burningman . . . but this sort of segways . . .
Except that it's founded in my understanding of the essence of the Taiji . . .
Also the use of tools of magik withing mArtial context: i.e.:The Staff
quote:Lothar Tuppan posted
“Originally posted by zerone:
Sometimes when I'm in Karate, at a point where we've been driven to almost exaustion I'll try hold a positive thought in my head or a favourable scenario.”
That's cool and shows a certain amount of discipline to be able to focus on something other than "oh my god, I feel like I'm going to pass out now."
I've done something similar with envisioning aspects of myself that I would like to jettison and 'attacking' them while doing the techniques. It's worked pretty well.
quote:Lothar Tuppan posted
“quote:
Originally posted by grant:
Creating a form as a kind of sigiling exercise seems sort of fascinating; at first glance it also seems like something you'd have to be a real master to even attempt. Maybe there's a punk rock/chaos magic way to do it.”
I don't think I'm quite up to desinging my own to begin with, I'm thinking of starting with exisiting forms that I know and adding sigil, rune, etc. aspects to them (for example, at points where 'kiais' are exclaimed, replace the kiai with a sigilized mantra) and then work from there. Once I've got that working to my satisfaction, I'll move on to desinging short combinations and build up from there.
”quote:
It'd have to be more invocative/divinatory rather than trying to get anything done (can't recall which "th-" word is which right now).”
I'm not sure that it can't be thaumaturgic (get stuff done with your own power). If you can focus your intent and generate the right amount of chi and/or gnosis then it might just be a very physical way of charging a sigil, bind rune, etc. It'll be interesting to see though.
”quote:
I bet you could overlap this idea with the idea of magic sports, like the ones mentioned in the Mayan ballgame thread.”
That could be fun, as long as the human sacrifice part was left out (I win, I win, now I get to die! YAY!). Actually, something my girlfriend and I would like to do some equinox is perform a dramatized pre-arranged battle representing the duality, and false duality between light and darkness. The performance would basically be an offering to the powers of 'light' and 'dark'.
”quote:
I also think it'd make more sense to start by using simple qigong exercises before tackling a full-blown form, but then again (as admitted above) I'm a patently inert blob of fat protoplasm. Or at least that's how I've been feeling lately.”
While I don't have much experience in qiqong, I do have a good amount of experience moving energy during shamanic sessions, kundalini poses, and some chakra healing work. I'm using those techniques to use as a baseline. In the Choy Luy Fut style of Kung Fu that I take I don't get to learn much QiQong until after black belt level.
quote:Lothar Tuppan posted
”quote:
Originally posted by adrian reckons...:
Any regular discipline or practice can be useful, if only as a demonstration of the ability to hold attention. If it gets you fit and flexible too, all the better. And any 'energy' based practice/means of shifting attention is invaluable if you're looking to develop greater sensitivity to and ability to work with 'energy'...which is pretty much synonymous with magic. Learn different approaches, and discover whether you experience energy changes in the same ways, or if the differences are themselves instructive.”
Yup. I started taking Kung Fu for two reasons:
1) it was something I always wanted to do and I was finally ready to get off my ass.
2) I felt like I was reaching a wall with my 'spiritual' and 'magical' pursuits. My physical body's condition seemed to be holding my spiritual body back.
Things have definitely opened up since getting in shape.
Oh, yeah... sex is sooo much better when you're in good shape.
quote: Lothar Tuppan posted
”quote: Originally posted by PATricky:
QIGONG is a VERY VAST feild . . . to explore. I've had the good fortune of meeting some Qigong Masters whose mastery already delves into the depths of magik. Ritual, miracles, longevity, healing, etc.
One of the greatest strengths of Qigong is it versility. So many different styles and types of excersises that can yeld VERY specific results. Rather than try and create a form for a purpose, one can assemble various Qigong excersises towards a specific end.”
I look *so* forward to getting closer to that point. Right now I'll be happy to do a proper roundhouse kick at head level.
”quote:
Grounding-Attunement to Universial CHI-working it to specific organs/or elements as represented by the organs which in turn may be represented by a relative planet/rune/deity-Gnosis-dispersial-Banishing-closing the form.”
I'd like to hear more about the specifics in this. I've done similar things getting ready for healing sessions (connecting to both earth and universal energies, drawing them into your heart chakra and focusing the energy through your arms) as not to use your own energies. It's a bad idea to try healing with your own energy since we are limited batteries. Universal energy is a better source.
”quote:
I've been also working on focusing that same dynamic with-in Drum circles . . . and then lately taking that same method to the EPIC liminial explosions of Burningman . . . but this sort of segways . . .
Except that it's founded in my understanding of the essence of the Taiji . . . “
I've experienced a lot of cool stuff with the right drum circles. You can almost get knocked over by the energy swirling around. My only concerns about doing it at Burning Man would be the state of some of the participants.
”quote:
Also the use of tools of magik withing mArtial context: i.e.:The Staff “
Yup. Sword, staff, Phurba. Maybe even wooden rune weapons that were carved, loaded, and then used for a specific martial/magical purpose and then ritually disposed of.
quote:PATricky posted
”quote:
Yup. Sword, staff, Phurba. Maybe even wooden rune weapons that were carved, loaded, and then used for a specific martial/magical purpose and then ritually disposed of.”
Now you're talking!!! especially usefull when Dragon Slaying and the likeCall me when you head out on your next quest!!!
As for Qigong: One of it's greatest beauties Is it's simplisity. I can show you some techniques in about 5 minutes that will usefull for the rest of your life. Weither you want to use it for magik or just to keep warm while hiking . . .
We must hang out some time . . . comparitively speaking, we're rock throwing distance !!!
quote:Wyrd posted
By the way, on shamanic postures, here are the two texts which are considered the "key tomes" in the area:
Goodman, Felicitas D, Where the Spirits Ride the Wind: Trance Journeys and Other Ecstatic Experiences Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1990. ISBN: 0253327644
Gore, Belinda, Ecstatic Body Postures: An Alternate Reality Workbook. Santa Fe: Bear & Co., 1995. ISBN:1879181223
Doing a journey in a specific posture means that you are creating a heck of a serious connection to the energy source you are evoking in posture.
I have a friend who's a teacher of the Universal Peace Dances, and I've participated in some of them for creating space, etc. and they are very good. Most indigenous cultures ultilise dance in some capacity for setting up space. What I was thinking, more in the likes of using T'ai Chi to do this, was more a formal set of movements, which include particular gestures - a different vibe than dancing I think.
Throughout this discussion I also have the Harlequinade from the Invisibles in mind, and the stylised gestures and movements they used to bend time/space. Somehow that image is stuck in my mind.
Runic Yoga is a new phenomenon from the early twentieth centure, originating among the German occultists (note, these guys often are tainted with a rather unsavoury reputation before of associations with the Nazi ideology). Friedrick Marby created what he called Runengymnastik("rune gymnastics") in the 1920s, and it was taken up by Siegfried Kummer. He published a book in the 1930s called Runenyoga ("rune yoga"), which details the system of allowing your body to take the shape of a rune. These systems are what most people base their current ideas about runic postures on. Thorsson is a translater of Kummer's works, so he's very fond of his theories, and discussed somewhat in his book, Futhark: A Handbook of Rune Magic
Two books which go into this area in a little more detail than others are:
Jan Fries, Helrunar. Mandrake of Oxford, 1993. ISBN: 1869928199 (you can order it from the Mandrake web site http://www.cix.co.uk/~mandrake/ - I'd recommend them for lots of books, it's a good service)
Pennick, Nigel, The Complete Illustrated Guide to Runes. Element Books Ltd, 1999. ISBN: 1862041008
Actually, Sirona Knight's The Little Giant Encyclopedia of Runes. Sterling Publishing, 2000 ISBN: 0806949945, seems to go into it a bit as well. I only just picked up this book, and it appears a bit "light" to me, but I have to give it more of a read, it might well be quite good.
I haven't come across a modern book that concentrates on just this subject, but it would be fairly specialised I guess.
Here's a quick overview of the area on this web site: Stádhagaldr - runic yoga
You might also be interested in the Stav tradition, which is a combination of runic practises with martial arts. I've been looking at it for some time. Here's the url: Stav International and Stav Academy.
quote:Lothar Tuppan
”quote:
Originally posted by Wyrd:
By the way, on shamanic postures, here are the two texts which are considered the "key tomes" in the area: <snip>”
Thanks for the references. I think I have experienced this. I went to a 'Shamanic and Alternative Healing' conference last year (it's put on each year by Ruth Inge Heinz and Stanley Krippner) and one of the speakers had us journey in strange poses. Sounds kind of like what you described. I probably would have liked it better if we all weren't on hard wood floors.
”quote:
I have a friend who's a teacher of the Universal Peace Dances, and I've participated in some of them for creating space, etc. and they are very good. Most indigenous cultures ultilise dance in some capacity for setting up space. What I was thinking, more in the likes of using T'ai Chi to do this, was more a formal set of movements, which include particular gestures - a different vibe than dancing I think.”
that's what I think too. Could be very powerful
”quote:
Throughout this discussion I also have the Harlequinade from the Invisibles in mind, and the stylised gestures and movements they used to bend time/space. Somehow that image is stuck in my mind.”
Timemachinego daddy-o! We're on to something here
quote:PATricky posted
Heh . . . Amidst my various Journies into Salvia Devinorum Posture & Hands gestures have proven to be emmencly valuable. Especially while navigating the Space/Time Ontology continuim. Or if I'm to express influence into a companion's Salvia Journey.
I wonder how it would be to explore the two.
any Salvianaughts here?
quote:Lothar Tuppan posted
To some degree. I have had a problem bringing enough of the smoke into my lungs quickly enough to fully 'blast off' <insert Clinton inhaling joke here>
I've had a enough success with the tinctures to realize how powerful it can be but they don't seem as strong as the smoke and it just tears the shit out of your mouth.
I'm thinking of communing with the plant again this weekend as a matter of fact.
Salvia can be a shy one. It can take time to get to know her.
quote:the Fool posted
I recommend Baugua for really promoting your internal chi. Also the forms of Baugua are far more ritualistic than say taichi, involving concepts from daoism, I ching etc. directly in the forms themselves.
The first form I learned - the 24 swiming palms - is broken into 8 parts. Each part refers to an animal, lion, unicorn, snake, bear, dragon, pheonix, rooster and monkey. Each of these sections is broken in three, earth, heaven and mmm... can't remember the third but basically its a progression upward (its either lake or mountain). Each part of the form has an associated hexgram from I ching. Part of the understanding of each section is to 'see' the animal in the form, and its progression through its three aspects. This may have some links to shamanism and animal spirit forms, not sure.
The forms are always performed in a circle, all participants face the center of the circle (the later forms are performed on a yin-yang symbol). I have always felt that you could easily charge a sigil by placing it in the center of this circle, or on a tree that you perform the form around.
quote:Brenden Simpson posted
For a brief time I practiced the Korean martial art of TaeKwon Do. At the time I was too young to appreciate it, but it was undoubtedly a factor in my expansion into the other fields of meditation and the study of Asian history.
quote:grant posted
"Ba Gua" can mean "eight trigrams" literally, as well as referring to the martial art or the little mirrors with the trigrams on them.
There's a bagua class immediately before mine, but I'm never there early enough to take it.
Note: Bagua, tai chi, and kung fu all *incorporate* elements of qi gong. They're all energy exercises, and that's what qi gong literally means. Working with/mastering (gong) and energy (qi).
Here's a primer: http://www.acupuncture.com/QiKung/ChiPri.htm
Simple theory, including Five Elements (where Eastern energy work overlaps with the Western Pentagram): http://www.acupuncture.com/QiKung/Five.htm
And here's a few simple exercises: http://www.acupuncture.com/QiKung/Yan.htm
quote:
“A person practicing Yan Xin qigong may appear to be sitting quietly and perhaps thinking of nothing. This is both true and untrue. The person is listening but not really listening, thinking but not thinking in the normal sense, imagining but not imagining, aware of the surroundings but not too aware. Such is the qigong meditative state. Smiling and good wishes are important qigong techniques. Although sitting quietly, a beginner is trying to breathe deeply, slowly and regularly -- and counting each breath. At first it takes a lot of effort to exert harmonious control over the diaphragm, chest walls, throat, tongue and nasal passages. The beginner is also pushing virtually to the breaking point the human capacity to imagine."
Sound easy enough?
quote:PATricky posted
YEah . . .
basicly every martial art has QIgong as a basic building block . . . However Qigong does not nessarily have any Martial Arts aspects . . . interesting.
Then again there's the whole Chinese->English translations.
Kungfu=> Ultimate Achievement, You can have good Kungu in Cooking, or calligraphy.
Qigong=> Mastering Chi, the "gong" in Qigong is pretty much the same as the "Kung" in Kungfu. It's also a term you would ad to addresing an elder. Like the "grand" in Grandfather.
Taiji=> Tai Chi=> Is the actual formal name of the Yin/Yang symbol. It translates to Grand-Ultimate . . or the Ultimate source of Chi(=ji=Qi). Interestingly the Tai in Taiji is almost = to the Gong/Kung in the sence of "grandness" . . . however Tai is more Yin while Kung/gong is Yang.
So i would speculated that somewhere there's a lost art of Gongji or Kung Chi.
Baugua also has a much more obscure ister style called PeiQua. Met a PeiQua/Baugua master when i first started working for KFM. he ended up falling in love with the Our senior designer & they both went off to live together in Tiawan. This of course made way for my assention to that post . . . ahhh the tao of it all.
There's a wonderful book on Qigong that I highly recomend:
Qigong: essence of the healing dance
by G. garripoli.
a VERY good friend of mine that has traveled throughout Asia assembling valuable info on the topic. He's also produced a documentary on the subject which is great.
Well, also I got to contribute a chapter as well as some illustrations . . .
Check it out . . .
quote:zerone posted
”quote:
origianlly posted by grant:
How does that work for you?”
The events that imagine haven't come to pass or anything, but just trying to hold them at the point of exhaustion helps me focus more on the moment. It sounds kind of corny, but at that point I try to radiate positive energy/vibes out to the universe. 'We win.'
”quote:
Throughout this discussion I also have the Harlequinade from the Invisibles in mind, and the stylised gestures and movements they used to bend time/space. Somehow that image is stuck in my mind.
Timemachinego daddy-o! We're on to something here "
I agree absolutely and whole heartedly.
quote:Lothar Tuppan posted
”quote:
Originally posted by the Fool:
Part of the understanding of each section is to 'see' the animal in the form, and its progression through its three aspects. This may have some links to shamanism and animal spirit forms, not sure.”
Considering China, as well as all of Asia, had very strong shamanic cultures and traditions I wouldn't doubt it. But then, I'm biased that way
From a magical point of view I really like the ritual aspects of Baugua that you describe.
Very cool.
And that's all I had saved. There was another page or two but the gremlins of the board ate it from the archive.
Any new ideas or conclusions from any old or new posters?
[ 26-01-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ] |
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