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Yoga & Martial Arts

 
  

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Wyrd
09:31 / 24.01.02
I'm starting this topic here because I've just realised that there's no category on Barbelith for physical activities - martial arts, Gym, biking, hiking, climbing, etc.

Anyway, I just started taking an Ashtanga Yoga class. It is so fucking hard! I'm not giving up - partly because it is so difficult - because I want to get more flexibility. I already go to the Gym, and do T'ai Chi (Yang style), but god damn, Ashtanga isn't easy.

I think this must be the most difficult skill I've set myself to learn in a long time.

Is it just me, or does everyone has this problem when starting Yoga? I did feel like quite the fumbling fool in that class. I guess it will take practice, but I'm really have to give myself a mental pep talk to keep going.

Time to work on my upper body strength methinks...
 
 
Mr Tricks
09:31 / 24.01.02
Yeah... I've done Yoga off & On for years...

it's great & seems to always be hardist when I'm first getting into it...

Astanga is the hardest work out as well... enjoy it...

hope all's well or as well as can be eh?

Namaste
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:12 / 24.01.02
My limited occasional participation in Kundalini yoga has definitely made me respect yoga as a workout. If it's easy then it's just not being done right.

I usually allow myself to trance out a bit when doing yoga, that way I don't focus on what a novice buffoon I am.

As for flexibility, from the waist up I'm gumby man but from the waist down (specifically the hips) I'm stiff as stiff can be. A year and a half of Kung Fu and my legs forward mobility and flexibility have increased to where I feel satisfied with my improvement.

My side mobility though... when I try to do splits I feel like I'm getting a nose bleed I'm so fucking tall and I still can't do a side or roundhouse kick above waist level.

That's gonna take me years of working before I'm satisfied.

The flip side of the equation though is that yoga will definitely help you with your Tai Chi. My partner has been doing Kundalini for almost 10 years and she does warm up stretches that make my kung fu instructors wince.

[ 24-01-2002: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
cusm
16:01 / 24.01.02
5 years now of Kung Fu and Tai Chi, and I still can't quite do a full split. Oh, my poor tendons. Ashtanga looks pretty intense.
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:44 / 24.01.02
SPLITS Schmitz!!!

some people got it some people don't...

used to be I could stand on a few phonebooks & still hold my palms flat on the floor!!! NOT these days though... ouch!
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
17:40 / 24.01.02
quote:Originally posted by PATricky:

some people got it some people don't...


But I want it! I want it.
 
 
cusm
17:50 / 24.01.02
Some people just aren't 18 anymore
 
 
grant
18:18 / 24.01.02
Ashtanga: (noun)

An arena, usually located in a remote area in a Third World country, wherein crazed competitors yank their own limbs off for a cash prize.




Damn. That CAN'T be good for you, can it? I mean... damn!

Talk about self-mastery....

[ 24-01-2002: Message edited by: grant ]
 
 
Ariadne
18:36 / 24.01.02
Hiya.

I've been doing yoga for about eight years and started going to an astanga class last year because of the amazing buzz it gives.

It IS hard, and even a year later I often come out of a class shaking from head to foot - but I really like it.

And yes, even after doing iyengar for years I found astanga hard because you have to learn routines, like the sun salutes (astanga ones are different to what I'd done before), and because it moves so fast there's no time to think, 'huh?'.

At first I was a bit dismissive because it seems more of a work out than a meditation, but once you get to know what happens when, it can get quite tranced out.

I wouldn't give up iyengar, slower yoga for astanga but I think it's a worthwhile practice. And you'll get there, Wyrd - soon it'll make sense, I promise!
 
 
Ierne
18:47 / 24.01.02
Whoa! And here I am considering the "Gentle Yoga" classes at my local...Och

To be fair, I stopped doing it after my ankle injury, so I know I've got to start over softly. Thanks for the positive reinforcement, peeps!
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
20:04 / 24.01.02
I used to do basic yoga, about two years ago. I started it because I was pretty much on the verge of ripping people's arms off at the office, and needed to do something that'd calm me down - and it worked really, really well, with the bonus of being quite toning.

I think I stopped when the classes moved somewhere else.

At any rate, I need to get back into it - to stop my teeth grinding and to try to convince myself that I won't need to exercise if I'm going to classes regularly.

That's the theory, anyway.
 
 
Wyrd
17:13 / 25.01.02
Thanks for the encouragement guys. I'll see how the second class goes next week - my shoulders and hamstrings are still pouting with me about the workout on Wednesday. Ouch.

It makes me wonder how many people who do magic do physical workouts as well, and how many see the interrelatedness of the two?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
20:45 / 26.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Wyrd:

It makes me wonder how many people who do magic do physical workouts as well, and how many see the interrelatedness of the two?


I think there's a definite interrelation. Not only do the physical disciplines help with increasing personal discipline and focus, it also increases the amount of energy your body can produce and hold.

My own practice has increased quite dramatically since getting in shape.
 
 
The Knowledge, oh yes
00:26 / 27.01.02
great thread!

I do mainly iyengar with a little kundalini thrown in. I like to listen to music while in my asanas and use songs to measure time. I enjoy the benefits of daily practice immensely. I've never felt more at ease in my body. But i have a slight ill ease that yoga has become such a necessity for me. If I miss more than a day then my demons are back. I also sometimes like to smoke pot while doing yoga. Although I feel like I can go deeper if my system is clean. One thing I'd like to try is practice outside. I'm typically in the dark with candles and incense.
 
 
SMS
01:48 / 27.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Wyrd:
It makes me wonder how many people who do magic do physical workouts as well, and how many see the interrelatedness of the two?


Doesn't KRSNA tell us to practise yoga? I keep forgeting to look this up.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
12:20 / 26.01.03
I'm starting this topic here because I've just realised that there's no category on Barbelith for physical activities - martial arts, Gym, biking, hiking, climbing, etc.

This has driven me a bit batty now and again, too. I don't think it's off the scale of Barbelith at all, since physical practice can affect nearly every other aspect of one's life - my confidence, work ethic, attitudes towards limits, difficulties and other people have all been affected. Sometimes instead of asking "what book are you reading?", I'd rather know what people are doing physically.

Anyhoo, just to pipe up, I've done hatha yoga in a fairly disorganised manner for years and just recently started doing Ashtanga, which is (or rather can be - it all depends on what you want to get out of it) quite regimented, and it does make you sweat. I get a great workout even though I'm still working through the primary series (which means I'm not a leaping pretzel yet, but I can lie perfectly still thinking about my spine for 10 minutes with aplomb). And naturally I like to talk about it.
 
 
Mike
12:27 / 26.01.03
We have Body Alchemy, but trying to discuss specific physical arts would be almost impossible. Every one of us expresses ourselves physically in a very different way. There is probably more difference between our physical self expressions and our mental/magickal self expressions. What exactly would we talk about? Football?

I don't mean to be sarcastic as such, only to highlight why discussions in Barbelith regarding physical arts always fizzle out very quickly.
 
 
Mike
12:50 / 26.01.03
BTW, I would recommend En Fu San to everyone (I'm spelling En Fu San phonetically because I've never seen it written down).

I don't know if I can explain it very well, but I will try:

The idea is to do nothing. Just relax and let your body do what its instincts tell it to do. In effect, you step back and watch your own body 'fighting'. However, in practise, you never fight. Movements are almost painfully slow. Very often, the person who moves the slowest is the person who wins. En Fu San has an uncanny way of giving victory to the strongest soul, not the strongest body.

You and your partner stand face to face, in the usual martial arts stance (you should be able to put all your weight onto your right foot and balance on your left foot, then put all your weight onto your left foor and balance on your right foot, and then share the weight evenly, without anyone seeing you make any movement - practise this if you think anyone might see your movement).

Ground your feet - until the session is over, they will not move. Imagine that they are nailed into the ground and set in concrete. You could not move your feet even if you wanted to and tried with all your strength.

Each of you raise your right hand and place the back of your right wrist to the back of your partners right wrist. Imagine that your hands are held together with the same strength that your feet are grounded with. You cannot break contact with your partner.

Move your hand. Through the connection between the backs of your wrist and your partners wrist, their hand will move to. Likewise, when you partner moves their hand, through the connection between the backs of their wrist and your wrist, your hand will move to.

Can you break their grounding at their feet, so that they fall out of their circle, without them breaking your grounding at your feet and causing you to fall out of your circle?

The trick is to move very slowly, take the time to listen to the advice coming from the very centre of your psyche. There is a core at the centre of your psyche which naturally pushes in the right direction - follow it.

Soon enough your opponent will fall over - and if you've been doing it right you probably won't even know what you've done.

The first time I practised En Fu San with someone other than the person who taught me, I caught my partner, saving him from falling before I even realised I was winning. It was him who realised that I had caught him and admitted defeat.

Its a bit like Tai Chi pratised with a partner while in a trance state using knowledge of magick but applying it physically, not magickally.

Have fun!
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
15:52 / 26.01.03
I think your last post, Evy, is a great example of the sort of discussion that can take place - a mix of practice and theory. Perhaps you think Magick is not the place for such talk, but I can't think of another appropriate forum, either. It's possible threads open to multiple disciplines, with the common element of physical work/expression, could resist the fizzle-and-die.
 
 
Simplist
16:33 / 26.01.03
Since it seems like people here have done a variety of types of yoga, I have a technical question for the crowd: What are the differences between the various styles and their relative strengths and/or weaknesses? Which would be best for a newbie, and why? I ask because I'm considering taking a class sometime soon, and living in SF, CA am faced with a bewildering array of teachers and styles to choose from. I'm a long-time martial arts practitioner, so I'm already reasonably fit and flexible, not a total out-of-shape slug if that makes any difference. Any advice would be appreciated.
 
 
LVX23
18:51 / 26.01.03
It's natural that it will be difficult at first. In fact, if you really progress and have a teacher who recognizes your progression, it should always be difficult. However, it is a method of retraining the body and as your body begins to adapt to the training, it will more readily fall into the postures. Keep in mind also that while yoga is physical in nature, it is designed to loosen and relax the nervous system, bringing it into harmony with the body. And as far as Ashtanga goes, the core of this system is breathwork and any teacher who knows their stuff should provide a lot of training in this area, as well as the postures.
 
 
FrootBroot
21:33 / 26.01.03
Just wanted to throw my two cents in. I have worked as a personal trainer for 8 years and so have had the opportunity to work with people of many different physical types all with unique needs. The biggest mistake I've made in the past is following someone else's routine to the letter in hopes of getting the same results.With a client I always surmise their needs and abilities before goals, but I wasn't doing that for myself. Creeps up in other disciplines to huh? Not to say you can't learn from a teacher or trainer's knowledge but the steps your body needs to take to get to certain goal are yours alone.
p.s. Are there any freestyle(like UFC) martial artist's here?
 
 
illmatic
21:42 / 26.01.03
Sapient: I have no idea about Yoga styles at all - maybe just go on recommendations if you can get any - perhaps it's the teacher, not the style? Who knows? Do you want to say anything about your martial arts experience? Be interested to hear being a Martial Arts newbie myself.

I think we could have a long running thread about physical disciplines just to swap the occasional note or experience - Body Alchemy might be better than here though as it's this is specifically devoted to Yoga.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
05:49 / 27.01.03
Really excellent introduction here.

The styles that I have practiced personally:

Hatha usually refers to a mixed bag of sorts, drawing on many other disciplines. What is taught depends a great deal on the instructor and his/her background. My hatha teacher, I believe, was primarily into Iyengar, and she was really a stickler for attention to detail. She's a great teacher.

Bikram, sometimes called hot yoga, is done in a room kept at about 105 degrees (F). There's a sauna unit in the room - this means you can stretch a lot further with less risk of injury. You do the same 26 postures, for the same amount of time each time, and it's never boring. You sweat like a mad fool, think you'll die before you get into locust position, and twenty minutes afterwards feel like a god. It's physically very demanding and fantastically bendy, but there is little to no spiritual aspect.

Ashtanga, which I'm currently practising, is also called Power Yoga if the teacher studied with a woman named Beryl Bender Birch. Power yoga is a slightly westernized version of Ashtanga. The thing I really like about ashtanga is that all the positions flow from one to another instead of starting and stopping all the time, and movement is always timed with the breath - vinyasa. One of the big ideas in ashtanga is to generate internal heat, and that it certainly does. It's not very meditative (at least not for me yet), but it does include a bit of that element every time.

The best advice I can give to you is to try out classes at the professional studios. If you take yoga at the local gym, it's possible that the teacher might not be so great, and the worst thing is that rooms in gyms are often too cold to do yoga in. Just ask the instructor where they learned yoga and what style they use.
 
 
FatherDog
14:09 / 27.01.03
"p.s. Are there any freestyle(like UFC) martial artist's here?"

I do catch wrestling, concentrating on grappling specifically. When I have enough spare time and enough of a skill and health base, I intend to mix in some striking training and compete in the local NHB competitions; many of the folks I train with (including my coach) already do.

"Freestyle" is a bit of a misnomer there. Most folks who train for NHB events like the UFC don't just "train freestyle", they train a specific grappling and a specific striking art (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai kickboxing tend to be the most popular, but there's loads of variation) and do some venue-specific rules-based sparring to prepare them for the specific event they're training for.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:31 / 27.01.03
I'm starting this topic here because I've just realised that there's no category on Barbelith for physical activities - martial arts, Gym, biking, hiking, climbing, etc.

This drives me nuts at times as well, it seems such a huge thing to leave out. So as a moderator elsewhere, I'd say put it where you're happiest with it, and *make* a space for this stuff. Rather like the Body Alchemy thread.

Back on topic, Evy, your description of En Fu San (?) sounds wonderful. And a little like something I've done in counselling training, with an emphasis on co-operation/working together within a power balance rather than in combat. Basically we stand opposite each other in pairs, and place the palms of our hands against each other in front of us (as if about to play 'pat-a-cake' ).

Then for 3 minutes one person leads, moving their hands, while they other hads to keep the palms flat against the leaders palms and follow, the leader can move their palms up or down, in circles, whatever, as long as they don't break contact.

Three mintutes seems an incredibly long time under these circumstacnes, and the room/externals disappear, the focus narrows down to at, first watching the hands, and after a while, just down to touch, feeling where to go next.

Then you swop for three minutes. The repositioning/role swopping can be pretty disorienting.

Finally, you do three minutes where you try and swop 'leadership' bewteen you without speaking... one takes over from the other whenever it seems right.

This is amazing, I've found myself totally immersed in the process of leading and following, picking up tiny physical/energy-based hints and clues... often it gets to a point when it's impossible, or near impossible to tell who's leading and following, often the switching is very rapid, and there's something about the oscillation that results in something very trancey happening...
 
 
FatherDog
16:06 / 27.01.03
"Finally, you do three minutes where you try and swop 'leadership' bewteen you without speaking... one takes over from the other whenever it seems right."

This sounds remarkably similar to a commonly used Tai Chi drill called "push hands".
 
 
LVX23
18:07 / 27.01.03
>>Do you want to say anything about your martial arts experience?

I've been studying Budo Tai Jutsu for several years (commonly referred to as Ninjutsu but the Bujinkan has been distancing itself from that term due to all the shallow Hollywood conotations, as well as all the shyster's out there pretending to be ninja masters). It's really an amazing art, predicated on physics of the body, extended senses, and a core spirituality. It is a combat art form derived from traditional battlefield applications (the system comprises 9 schools developed over 900 years).

As with any art, it really all depends on your sensei and which aspects of the art they tend to focus on. Some prefer the practical, physical side of training, others will press further into the spiritual. In any case, always check a potential instructor's references - there is A LOT of politics and in-fighting among martial arts organizations.

Here are a couple of ninjutsu links (these are the real deal):
Winjutsu
Hatsumi
 
 
FrootBroot
18:25 / 27.01.03
"Freestyle" is a bit of a misnomer there"

My coach was Adrian Serrano a ranked NHB fighter and UFC veteran who callled what he taught "freestyle grappling". It definately had a strong base in BJJ and borrowed from judo,sambo,wrestling, and other grappling styles.The other aspect I consider more "freestyle" was the emphasis on developing the skills that best suited your own abilities rather than learning a given set of skills in order to advance to the next rank.
I was a member of the Bando Boxing( like muay thai) team in college, the I switched to Judo and finally to this mixed system.
FatherDog, I absolutely love ground fighting! Theres such a " chess match" feeling to it- looking for openings,countering, setting up a submission- not to mention the all-around work-out.
 
 
FatherDog
18:39 / 27.01.03
"My coach was Adrian Serrano a ranked NHB fighter and UFC veteran who callled what he taught "freestyle grappling". It definately had a strong base in BJJ and borrowed from was the emphasis on developing the skills that best suited your own abilities rather than learning a given set of skills in order to advance to the next rank."

Ah, okay; I didn't quite understand the sense in which you were using the word.

I think most serious competitors in the NHB scene wind up studying bits and pieces of many different things, picking up the skills that best suit them, as you say. But it's important to have a strong base in one or two things, so that you have a contex to work from. That doesn't necessarily mean learning a rote set of skills to "progress", but getting solid basics down which can then be added to with skills that best fit you.

For instance, I use kneetaps and suplays far more than double or single leg takedowns, but to get to the point where I could determine what worked best for me and have a context to apply it, I had to develop a solid base in standup grappling and learn the movement and handfighting associated with it.

(not that I'm an expert now by any means... still learning *chuckle*)

Always good to talk to a fellow grappler.
 
 
grant
19:53 / 27.01.03
I'm looking for more information on en fu san, but I can't find it on the web. Got any links or alternate spellings?

I did find this: Systema: Russian slow-motion martial arts, but it's pretty clearly not the same thing.
 
 
Simplist
21:17 / 27.01.03
Thanks wembley, that was quite helpful.
 
 
Simplist
23:19 / 27.01.03
Mack Daddy Illmatic: Do you want to say anything about your martial arts experience? Be interested to hear being a Martial Arts newbie myself.

Well... I've been studying various (mostly striking) styles since my early teens (I'm now in my mid-30s). Started with competition-type Taekwondo, then a brief stint doing Karate in a similiar vein; both were lots of fun, but in retrospect neither was really very practical (this was reflective of the particular schools I attended, btw, not the styles themselves; I've since met a couple of Karate guys with exceptionally practical skills). In my 20s I started training more seriously; it could be argued, in fact, that I became unhealthily obsessive about the whole thing. I ended up learning a few different Northern and Southern Shaolin styles and some Wing Chun, thought I was getting pretty good, then ran into a Taiji (aka Tai Chi) teacher who invited me to "take your best shot". After a humiliating fifteen minutes of being thrown around like a rag doll I decided to learn Taiji, and began working primarily on that, drifting around and eventually settling on Chen style. Along the way I suffered a back injury in a sparring accident, and eventually gave up external styles altogether in favor of a strict Taiji/qigong practice. Lately my back is feeling considerably better, and I'm leaning more and more toward starting back into something a bit more intense again. Taiji is a great martial art in principle, but it's not typically taught in a way that's conducive to acquiring or maintaining high-level martial skill; even when the teacher is martially skilled, the classes tend to be less rigorous than other arts, and sparring practice is basically nonexistent. Which is actually fine in general; most people who are drawn to taiji aren't particularly interested in those aspects of it anyway, and prefer to use it for other forms of self-cultivation (as do I, but I like the martial stuff too). So I'm looking around once again.

chris23: I've been studying Budo Tai Jutsu for several years...

...and this just happens to be one of the arts I've been looking at. I haven't visited any classes yet, but what I've read of it sounds quite intriguing. I'd be very interested to hear more about your experience studying it, chris23, if you feel like going on about it.
 
 
Zostrianos
19:17 / 29.01.03
Sapient: I also live in San Francisco, and I would highly recommend the Iyengar Yoga Institute at 27th and Taraval (http://www.iyisf.org/). It's a center for Iyengar teacher training and several teachers there have studied with Iyengar himself, and have been practicing 20-30 years. The style of instruction is exacting and is grounded in a thorough knowledge of anatomy. You might also want to check out Manuso Manos -- I haven't taken any classes with him, but he's probably one of the top Iyengar teachers in the country and he teaches somewhere in SF.

My $0.02
 
 
LVX23
21:21 / 29.01.03
Sapient, for me Taijutsu is the best form out there. It is extremely martial and very practical. As mentioned, it was developed as a combat art for peasants in rural Japan some 900 years ago. Yet for all it's tradition, it has continued to be flexible and adaptive, evolving with the climate and needs of it's students. Check out this link for information straight from the source - Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi, 34th Soke of the Togakure Ryu.

I grew up with a romanticised view of ninja's. After watching many of the ninja movies of the early 80's (most all of which, in retrospect, were complete crap), I bought a copy of Hatsumi's "Ninjutsu: History & Tradition". I think I was about 12yrs old at the time.

Fast forward 10 years to Santa Cruz. I was absolutely stunned to find out that a high-ranking Shihan was teaching just a few miles from where I was living in Santa Cruz, Ca. I began study under Shihan Richard Van Donk (who, incidently, has a questionable reputation as a businessman, but is an indisputable martial artist). Van Donk has worked closely with Hatsumi, as do all credible teachers, to accurately disseminate the current interpretations from Japan. Most of my direct training has been from Van Donk's apprentice, Godan Ken Balanon, who has an excellent reputation within the community.

The training began with the basics of body movement (rolling, breakfalls, flexibility, and conditioning), and the fundamentals of taijutsu - the basic forms and katas. My intial impression, and the feeling I have had ever since, was that this was a REAL martial art. We were being trained to fight, not spar. Indeed, sparring is very limited within ninjutsu because many of the fundamental moves are designed to injure. Most of the katas followed this form: Defend against a strike (usually with an opposing strike), grapple, restraint, take-down, submission. The principles require the least amount of movement, and leverage the basic principles of physics and anatomy. It is quick and to the point. IN the past few years I have been training directly with Ken and another black belt, usually in public parks and often at night. Although I have been laying low for the past couple of months due to a back injury (funny you should mention yours), I have great memories of last winter, training hard in darkness, outdoors in 50 dgree weather. Very cool and illuminating.

The other side of ninjutsu is the spiritual aspect. The forms are usually done within the context of the elements. Earth, air, fire, water, void. Each has a different feel and one may be more appropriate in a given situation. In the higher dan's, the core of ninjutsu - mikyo & kuji - is taught. This is a very powerful and profound spiritual system which has been maintained for several hundred years. I think the link above speaks to some of the fundamental spiritual principles of the art. But, simply put, taijutsu is defensive and should be carried with humility and responsibility to protect those innocents around you. As a warrior you have the responsibility to fight for love and life.

Well, this is turning into a bit of a long ramble - you can see that I am quite inspired by the topic. My advice to you if your interested, is to find a good instructor with good credentials - find a Bujinkan school - then try it for a little while. Don't be intimidated by more advanced students, but you have to be able to drop all your other training at the door. I would also recommend Escrima, De Cuerdes or Serrata. PM me if you've got more specifc questions.

Cheers.
 
  

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