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General discussion of Judaism and being Jewish

  
 
Triplets
18:23 / 08.09.04
Hi guys, ever since pre-WWII and the spread of Nazi racial propaganda has 'Jewishness' become mixed up in the idea that being such is a genetic/bloodline related thing? Has it become a racial quantity rather a religious one?

Can one be Jewish without actually being a religious Jew?

Simply, Is being Jewish a racial factor or a religious one? Both?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:25 / 08.09.04
Do you know how Jewishness works, Triplets? In terms of descent? Jewishness is generally matrilinear - if your mother is Jewish, you are, whether or not you practise. One can also convert, of course, to Judaism...

The Nazis, by the way, were by no means the first to create race-based stereotypes of Jewishness. If you look at medieval paintings of Judas, you'll see the characteristics identified as "Jewish" at the time - red hair, hook nose, that sort of thing.

I'm not entirely sure at what level this question is pitched...
 
 
Triplets
00:44 / 09.09.04
Well, it's just something I wanted cleared up. IE, what makes a Jewish person Jewish, and can one be Jewish without practising Judaism. Thanks for the answer. I'm sorry if the question was/seemed stupid but it's something I was confused over. I'm not a religious person in any kind of context so religio-related issues usually fall outside of my knowledge base. Unless you're on about protestant Christianity. Bloody CofE school why I oughta *shakes fist*
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
06:46 / 09.09.04
Haus groused: Do you know how Jewishness works, Triplets? In terms of descent? Jewishness is generally matrilinear - if your mother is Jewish, you are, whether or not you practise. One can also convert, of course, to Judaism...

The whole concept of what constitutes Jewish ethnicity is a scientific red herring. The Romans were the ones to come up with that whole "if your mother is Jewish" megilla, it was perpetuated by other gentile societies as a means of excluding Jews from spheres of influence, and it's only through repetition that less historically-circumspect (circumspect, youse mugs) Jews (ie, Zionists) have adopted it as canon as a way in which to compel non-practicing Jews into an obligation to their bloodlines. In truth, there is no gene for race, ethnicity, what have you; these are all social constructs that we allow far too much influence over our choices in allegiances and affiliations.

I think most Jews are a bit tired with the whole concept of "the Jewish people," as it's divisive, unfriendly and really has fuck-all to do with whatever it is that Judaism actually is. Tradition gets you so far, but when post-modernism deconstructs one's motivations for claiming this kinship it stands revealed as merely a self-protective tactic. Better to let the universal truths which facilitated this communal cohesion in the first place to once again rise to the surface and prove that there's something beyond culture to making this particular worldview one's own. It's a self-evaluation I would hope any faith subjects itself to at least every few generations to make sure they know why they believe what they believe and act as they act.

/+,
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:53 / 09.09.04

Triplets - no snark intended: I just wasn't sure whether the question was doing something very clever that I wasn't getting, or whether it was a simple request for info...

Better to let the universal truths which facilitated this communal cohesion in the first place to once again rise to the surface and prove that there's something beyond culture to making this particular worldview one's own.

And, in the company of some substantiation for your proposed history of matrilinearity, could you explain what those universal truths are, Vladimir?


I think there's the potential for this to broaden into quite an interesting discussion on how one does define "being Jewish" in the modern age...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:04 / 09.09.04
Incidentally, might I humbly point out that I don;t think anyone was suggesting that the mother carried the gene of Jewishness, only that Jewishness was often seen as matrilinear - that is, if your mother is Jewish it is easier to be identified and recognised as Jewish yourself. As such, science and genetics don't really come into it.

One might compare Roman Catholicism, another religion of the book...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:09 / 09.09.04
And further:

Jews (ie, Zionists)

Do you mean "by which I mean in this context Zionists", rather than "that is, Zionists", with the implication that all Jews are Zionists?
 
 
sleazenation
09:05 / 09.09.04
Just to add another question into the mix, following on from some of the ideas that VJB throws out there To what extent is the State of Israel a theocracy?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:00 / 09.09.04
Can someone either explain, justify, or change the title of this thread, please?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:24 / 09.09.04
I asusmed it was a pun or reference I didn't get, but I'll sling in a change now to make it a bit more helpful...
 
 
grant
15:49 / 09.09.04
Ha!

This thread coincides with two topics I found interesting on Cross+Flame...

One is on the Karaites, who may or may not be descended from the Sadducees, and who may or may not be descended from/related to the Khazars who converted to Judaism in the 700s. They're Bible literalists who reject the Talmud and all rabbinic interpretation of scripture.

Fun quote from that article: Avraham Kefeli, 31, made aliyah four years ago from Ukraine. He has written a book of folklore from his religion, which was published by the Ukranian government. He says the Karaites received special status in Ukraine because the government believed the community there dated back to the period before Jesus’ crucifixion; thus, they were exempt from collective guilt for his death.

The Karaites also escaped the pogroms of the tsars and the Nazi holocaust because they were so different from mainstream "rabbinic" Judaism. Some of their worship is more like Muslim tradition (taking off shoes before prayer) and some of it is like the extremism of the Chasidim taken to a whole 'nother level.

They say they're Jewish, only not. Israel allows them to make aliyah, but not continue to practice their beliefs if they marry a (mainstream) Jew. They also have to mark their butchers differently, because Karaite kosher isn't the same as regular kosher.

----

The other bit on Cross+Flame is a Kabbalistic reading of Deuteronomy 29:9-14, which is the section of the Torah that defines who is bound by the covenant between YHWH and the Israelites. The key verse is: Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath; but with him that stands here with us this day before the Lord our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day..."

According to the (Orthodox Jewish) fellow who posted the passage, the last bit of that is significant, because it implies that: the soul of every Jew who ever lived, and who will ever live, was there to take oath & enter into the covenant. Thus, we are born bound by the Torah. (Our Sages further teach that even the souls of converts were there.) When I decided, quite suddenly, at the age of 23, to actively embrace the Jewish faith which, up until then, hadn't meant anything special to me, I was not embarking on a new path, rather I was responding to a spiritual echo that had been resonating in my soul ever since I bound myself to honor God's covenant over 3,000+ years ago.


So that's one reading of what it is to be Jewish.
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
07:54 / 10.09.04
Haus espoused: And, in the company of some substantiation for your proposed history of matrilinearity, could you explain what those universal truths are, Vladimir?

Oy, you want citations? Let me work on that part of it. As for those universal truths, the best, most positively-operative assets of Judaism is its commital to social justice, iconoclasm and abstract monotheism. The idea is that if Judaism is practiced according to its most fundamental precepts as outlined in the halakha, then these assets shine through in one's actions and their results. This perspective has been brought to the fore in recent times by, among others, Douglas Rushkoff in his 2003 book Nothing Sacred: The Truth About Judaism, which I fully endorse and recommend to just about anyone. He additionally posits that Judaism is the ultimate open source religion, as evinced by the idea of the Talmud and the schul (at least as practiced before the advent of Reform Judaism), and allows for as much spiritual peace as any Eastern religion and even can be applicable if one considers oneself an atheist or otherwise dubious of a supreme being. In essence, he says, "God" is what results of the proper practice of Judaism as a good idea capable of changing the world to a will enacted towards good.

(Disclosure: I consider myself a friend of Rushkoff, and I interviewed him last year for LIFESTYLES, an upscale Jewish issues mag. It got to the point of his ideas so well that he posted the transcript of it on his site, and you can go read it. Your discretion with my civilian ID is appreciated.)

I don;t think anyone was suggesting that the mother carried the gene of Jewishness, only that Jewishness was often seen as matrilinear - that is, if your mother is Jewish it is easier to be identified and recognised as Jewish yourself. As such, science and genetics don't really come into it.

Unfortunately, too many people do bring science and genetics into it, even where actual science doesn't support the belief. If they think they can prove something with half-understood pseudoscience, they will.

Do you mean "by which I mean in this context Zionists", rather than "that is, Zionists", with the implication that all Jews are Zionists?

I certainly did not intend to imply all Jews are Zionists; I can say from personal experience that they/we are not. Without the parenthetical statements my sentence should read, "Less historically-circumspect Jews have adopted it as canon."

Sleaze mentioned: To what extent is the State of Israel a theocracy?

To the extent that only people born into the faith are truly considered full-fledged citizens, no matter what their religious adherence. In reality I'd say a sizable majority of Israelis of Jewish background are non-practicing, but the religious elite wield a disproportionate amount of influence since they supposedly represent the religion's "core." Harkening back to Judaism's iconoclasm and abstract monotheism, the idea of an elite is diametrically opposite most traditional interpretation of the faith's lack of center or hierarchy.

/+,
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:42 / 16.09.04

I don;t think anyone was suggesting that the mother carried the gene of Jewishness, only that Jewishness was often seen as matrilinear - that is, if your mother is Jewish it is easier to be identified and recognised as Jewish yourself. As such, science and genetics don't really come into it.

Unfortunately, too many people do bring science and genetics into it, even where actual science doesn't support the belief. If they think they can prove something with half-understood pseudoscience, they will.

Yeah, but nobody *here* was saying that, were they? For which, see above...

Interested by the above - does the Rushkoff perspective, then, mean that one can be a participant in and practitioner of Judaism without a) being "Jewish" in the traditionally understood sense(s) of the term and b) without actually believing in God. That's an interesting one... does it mena further that the idea of a Jewish community is now outdated?
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
08:49 / 19.09.04
does the Rushkoff perspective, then, mean that one can be a participant in and practitioner of Judaism without a) being "Jewish" in the traditionally understood sense(s) of the term and b) without actually believing in God. That's an interesting one... does it mena further that the idea of a Jewish community is now outdated?

Per the Rushkoff concept, which I'm quite confident I'm not doing justice:

a) Yes, one can be a practioner of Judaism without being of a Jewish background; it's merely Jewish institutions as they stand that make the concept unwelcoming and difficult. The inverse is, I think, why these fly-by-night Kabbala schools that have lured a disproportionate number of gentiles into their folds: they offer a sense of communal identity without any of the real content that goes with it. (Funny joke I heard on Jimmy Kimmel the other night: "Tonight is the start of Rosh Hashonah, the Jewish New Year, so Happy New Year to our Jewish friends like Madonna and Britney Spears.") Neither are representative of Judaism as intended, and bear far more resemblance to Luddite sects or New Age organizations.

b) The difference is one of semantics, according to Rushkoff: like Alan Watts, he says that "God" is not an entity or really even a noun; it's the force enacted through proper exercise of Jewish law upon your life and the world around you. In this sense, he says, Judaism is adaptive to the modern world and yet also contains the potential to be as all-encompassing a spiritual view as any Eastern religion (the latter of which being why so many secular Jews tend to go Buddhist). As he says, anyone who has left Jewish institutions has a better intuitive idea of what it means to be a Jew than those who cleave to the establishment.

So depending on what you mean by "the Jewish community," then I'd say that not only is it now outdated, but that it's never been truly applicable. Sure, it's been the manner in which certain people are grouped together, both from without and within, and the more rigid-minded are content to allow them to continue to do so because it means that's one less thing they have to think about. Rushkoff has said that he honestly has no vested interest in trying to "save" Judaism from itself, but that he does see the potential within its most basic tenets and idiomatic ideas for a new jumping-off point, one from which people can shape the sort of world they'd like to live in and the people they'd like to be. In the end, would there be any better manifestation of God you could think of?

As I wrote in a review of Nothing Sacred that ZEEK magazine butchered, you are the Moschiach, the Messiah you've been waiting for, and the state of Israel is not a plot of land but a synching up of collective will toward a common purpose.

(I also concluded that statement by writing, "This is the anthem, getcher damn hands up.")

/+,
 
  
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