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The Ultimate Marvel Universe

 
  

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doctorbeck
07:12 / 06.09.04
is anyone else enjoying the UMU as much as me? coming back to superhero comics after the NXM and wondering what to buy i've found the U-spidey trades very good fun, the ultimates confirming everything that made me dislike the avengers about but being a good read anyhow and ultimate to be good fun too

really liking the way security issues, social paranoia, genetic politics, are at the heart of the UMU, finding it well written and drawn on the whole but wondering how on earth they think new buyers will get into this (a topic i appreciate has been around on other threads) and why it all moves so slowly

makes the regular MU look a bit funny really, although my inner geek misses that massive tangled continuity and the ludicorusness of having all that stuff in the same universe, from magic to mutants to gods to aliens in abundance

now haven;t got on with U x-men or FF but wondering what else is out there i might like and if others are finding the UMU as good as i am

a
 
 
John Octave
20:04 / 06.09.04
My brother is 15 and really enjoys Ultimate Spider-Man. He says he likes being able to see Spider-Man "from the beginning" rather than now after 40 years. He likes the development and the characterization, and really likes the art. He'll read comics, but this is the first title he's ever bought regularly (and he has every issue) so I guess he's the "success story" with the Ultimate Marvel program: bringing new readers in.

I myself find the stories a bit slow. I really enjoy Peter in high school scenes, but lose all interest in Spider-Man when he appears (which isn't all that often, it seems; it's possible not to actually see him in costume for 2 issues at a time). I would absolutely love it if Bendis would write a book about kids in high school, because he does pretty well with those scenes. As a superhero writer, though, I don't think he has much of an imagination. Spider-Man just seems to outfight, rather than outwit, his opponents, and there's rarely a sense of wonder or novelty to it. It's important for the reader to care just as much about Peter as s/he would about Spider-Man, but if you don't care for the superhero at all, what's the point in reading a superhero comic?

Ultimates, on the other hand, I rather enjoy. It tries too hard to be hip and edgy at times, and the writing can be desperate ("Surrender? Do you think the A on my forehead stands for France?" Har) but generally it's a nice, fast paced action-thriller type read, not to be taken too seriously. And Hitch's art is mindblowing.

Ultimate X-Men I tried early on and gave up just because it was more "Look how hip we are" stuff from Millar, and had ludicrously skimpy costuming, even for superheroes. When Jean Grey's ass hangs out of her pants like that, rather than being enticed, I find myself thinking "That is awfully impractical for combat." And I feel no reason to read Ultimate FF; Mark Waid's FF book's super.

I guess the only reason I would read an Ultimate book is because I already know the characters and would be interested in seeing the "twist" on them. Generally speaking, though, I find them too slow and "realistic" at the expense of superhero joy.
 
 
Optimistic
22:06 / 06.09.04
I like the Ultimate FF. I think the first story, the Bendis/Millar one, was a bit of a failure because it didn't need to be six issues long and kind of petered out.

I agree with you about Bendis, he can write good dialogue but even then I sometimes feel his stuff is padded (look at the last issue of Daredevil - pointless).

It's not terrible though.

Anyway, I think Warren Ellis' FF is great.

Ultimate X-Men is a waste of time. Especially the Millar stuff, most offensive is the penultimate issue where he doesn't pause for breath telling us "Everything worked out for everybody and they all get a happy ending and Hank McCoy's parents got over their bigotry and he got back together with Storm and..."

I really hate that stuff.

The Ultimate X-Men are the most pointless of all the Ultimate books, I feel, because they look like the regular X-Men now. Grant Morrison's New X-Men is how it should have been done, a small cast and good stories. Instead the policy at the Ultimate office seems to be "Stuck for a story? Well, we haven't had an Ultimate version of this character yet..."

Avoid it.

Okay, rant over...
 
 
doctorbeck
07:03 / 07.09.04
good to know my hunch on U-Xmen was right, U-FF looked alright but was put off by doctor dooms mask (fickle i know)

i agree that the stories seem very slow, and wonder if they appeal to younger readers who might want a bit more action, they probably work better in trades for that reason which is where i buy them, but i do like to see the U-MU freed from continuity silliness but agree that they could do with more action

one of the things about U-spidey was that it put me right back to being 8 and reading spidey the first time around and remebering what i loved about a character i've forgotten for 20 eyars or so, but i'm not sure that's what the U-MU was set up to do

ultimate 6 has been a fun read recently, but the trskellion being done over AGAIN was a bit predictable, tho i did like to see some big spidey villians defining their relationshi[ tp each other and the state / SHIELD

will check out U-FF when the trades come along tho

i wonder if being 'realistic' is getting in the way of fast fun story telling?

a
 
 
Jack Denfeld
07:23 / 07.09.04
U-FF looked alright but was put off by doctor dooms mask (fickle i know)
But that's not a mask. That's his actual skin. His fucking skin is made of metal!!! Rock on!!!
 
 
FinderWolf
13:00 / 07.09.04
>> good to know my hunch on U-Xmen was right, U-FF looked alright but was put off by doctor dooms mask (fickle i know)

Dude, mask or skin, I ** HATE ** the visual design for Ult. Doctor Doom's face!!! I think it looks ridiculous, stupid, not threatening or menacing in the least. Why did they need to change from the classic bad-ass mask for the Ult. version?? AIIIGHH!! Consider me the sole member of the "I HATE ULT. DOC DOOM'S FACE SOOO MUCH" club. I can't understand how an editor in his right mind would approve that design and say "yeah, that's a really great, menacing visual! Thumbs up!!"

Anyway, Ellis FF is ok but really seems like watered-down Ellis to me. I think Ellis' FF is pretty poor overall, with some decent bits intermittently.
 
 
Optimistic
13:08 / 07.09.04
Agree about Doom...

It was much more menacing to imagine his face all fucked up underneath, as if it reflected what he was like inside. There is time to flesh the character out more though, but i can see where your coming from, he's a bit shallow at the moment.
 
 
COBRAnomicon!
13:30 / 07.09.04
Consider me the sole member of the "I HATE ULT. DOC DOOM'S FACE SOOO MUCH" club.

You're not the sole member. I also haaaaaate the goat legs/hooves.

DOOM SHOULD NOT HAVE FUCKING HOOVES.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:44 / 07.09.04
I even emailed Joe Quesada about it. His reply was the same as Mike Robot's above "But it's not a mask, man, it's his actual face/skull!" which dodges the question of whether or not the design is quality or crap.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:49 / 07.09.04
Please tell me that Joe Quesada replied.

"But his fucking face is made of metal!!! Rock on!!!"
 
 
The Falcon
14:02 / 07.09.04
If he did his stature would double in mine humble estimation.

I think the idea is like a fifth element, ya kno. Metal!
 
 
_Boboss
14:03 / 07.09.04
it's kind of difficult to express why the ultimate marvel universe has been so disappointing. i think for all the pleasing action-movie staginess all titles have comes with, the fatal problems can be exemplified as: the fact that we KNOW there was no history between ben and sue before the change; we KNOW that vic's face is made of shit and so there can never be the stunning reveal where we see his face is hardly marked at all.
 
 
doctorbeck
14:59 / 07.09.04
interesting point, i am wondering if it is disspointing as a universe, and not nearly as much fun as the regular MU, but allows for better stories to be told as it is stripped of a lot of continuity baggage and has a back to basics look at the characters (tho as someone said earlier GM did that with NXM very nicely for a while)

i suppose some of the changes to characters (like doom) just seem arbitrary and lacking in substance, but then somehting totally good might be done with them in the future i suppose.

one thing i have to praise it for is that in ultimate 6 tony stark asks if they went back in time to get spiderman, brilliant deep geek ref that i would not have got were it not for someone posting the strange story of iron man on the MU trivia list a while back

as for doom, it;s his real face??? then he can't just get a better looking one made dammit. and he has hooves?

a
 
 
John Octave
17:18 / 07.09.04
I've not seen what Ultimate Doom looks like. He has hooves? What? Is there a picture of this online anywhere?
 
 
Simplist
18:24 / 07.09.04
I dig The Ultimates (who wouldn't?), but with the rest of the books I find I'm more interested in the background story than the actual front and center narrative. Ultimate Spider-Man (of which I recently read the first three hardcovers) was fun and all, but the part I found most compelling was the Nick Fury subplot, which culminated (at the end of the Venom arc) in Fury's informing Peter that he'll be joining S.H.I.E.L.D. (and/or The Ultimates?) when he turns 18, and playing with the big boys, as it were ("not dressed like that, though" sez Nick). Now that's a potentially interesting storyline. Problem is, it will almost certainly never come to pass in regular continuity; Peter is only 15 presently, and three years in comic time could stretch over decades. And given that the whole high school drama thing just doesn't do much for me, I seriously doubt I'll be reading it that long...

I also recently read Millar's entire Ultimate X-Men run over several days, and was dissappointed to have dropped the cash on it. It was visually cool enough, but the writing was fairly lazy (plot holes all over the place, character arcs making no sense, etc.), and the characters were fairly bland for the most part, their interesting and unique backstories having been largely discarded.
 
 
diz
19:10 / 07.09.04
i like the fact that the UMU is much tighter and more cohesive than the mainstream MU or the DCU, and that it has a single overarching Big Issue that grounds it all thematically, the way that the mutant/human issue grounds the X-books in the regular MU. Nick Fury basically sums up the UMU in a nutshell while talking to Cap in Ultimate Six. i don't have the exact quote with me, but essentially he says that there were two big technological success stories to come out of WW II, the bomb and him (Cap), and since then everyone with a petri dish has been trying to make another super-soldier.

you can see why they'd want to in the very first arc of Ultimate X-Men. as much as the series may have a lot of weaknesses, the basic approach to this is absolutely perfect: Days of Future Past, except without the future part. a lot of people think that this whole approach is too extreme, but if we had teenagers walking around right now who could shoot lasers from their eyes, control minds, and walk through walls, and the government had Sentinel-level technology, i guaran-fucking-tee you this is what the world would look like. and, frankly, understandably so, considering the utter havoc Magneto is able to wreak on the world in this arc.

Magneto's rampage through DC sets the tone for the Ultimate universe, and basically the world looks like this: mutliple avenues to almost godlike power are opening up in every direction, from alien technology to mutant powers to extradimensional/magical/divine(?) abilities, and the powers that be are doing everything they can to control, suppress, harness, or counter those powers as they emerge, and in the mad scramble for supremacy, real people's lives are being blown around like leaves in the wind.

Spider-Man is an accidental byproduct of a failed attempt to recreate the super-soldier serum, and look what it's done to his life. look what the Weapon X program did to Wolverine, or what the Baxter Building project has done to the FF and Doom, or what the displacement through decades did to Steve Rogers' life. etc etc etc. all this in an atmosphere of chaos and paranoia and massive destruction which reflects our fears about WMD proliferation, genetic experimentation, terrorism, shadowy government misconduct, etc.

the Ultimate universe really feels like the world i live in, and those characters who have actually been developed (a lot of them haven't, which is a big flaw) seem to lead real-seeming lives, all of which tie together to create a mutually reinforcing world-system.

obviously, some of the books fail to deliver on the potential there, but the universe itself is really well-done.
 
 
PatrickMM
19:26 / 07.09.04
I read the massive three hardcovers in one Ultimate Spider-Man hardcover a few months ago, and I wasn't that impressed. I'd agree that Bendis seems much better at the character interaction, the personal stuff, than the superhero things. I know if I'm reading Ultimate Spider-Man, I shouldn't be expecting a relationship drama, but to me, it felt like a lot of villains were just put into storylines, because they needed a villain, and this slowed the development of the personal relationships.

My main problem with USM was that none of the villain battles seemed to have any consequences. The arcs were intended to be semi-standalone, and it shows, since the battles don't have that much of an effect on Peter. USM seems heavily Buffy inspired, but the problem is, on Buffy the fighting came out of the personal drama, USM can't combine the two in any meaningful way.

The Ultimates was a well done Millar title, I read the first trade, and will probably pick up the hardcover when it comes out. Ultimate X-Men was like the Ultimates, only shit. I'd be interested to read the Ellis UFF.
 
 
spacemonkey
00:18 / 08.09.04
I told myself at the time, that I would only pick up Ultimate Spidey for my son. He's way too young now, but I wanted him to have a good set of comics to go through. It's BS logic I used to trick myself, since realistically it'll be up to the 100's before he's actually reading them.

So yeah, I really like the tight-knit Ultimate universe. Seeing Peter Parker as an inexperienced superhero is a blast, especially when he meets up with the X-Men or Daredevil. Nick Fury's interactions in all the books give a good sense that something larger is at work. Professor X seems a bit shady at times.

I believe that Marvel should focus their energies in getting the core books in top shape. Good stories are good stories, whether they're Ultimatized or whatever. Since this seems highly unlikely, I'm glad that the Ultimate-verse isn't being pumped full of disposable titles like the core universe (this is open to debate). However, I think the Ultimate DD/Elektra titles suck (which is a shame because Daredevil is my favorite comic).
 
 
Aertho
01:30 / 08.09.04
Well here's a question, since I'm not collecting anything Ulitmate right now, but I am interested in the phenomenon and its logic.

What do you feel are Marvel's "core titles"? If Marvel were to stop thinking movie tie-in, and really about the stability of the Marvel Universe as a several-tiered narrative machine, what parts are essential to it?

I would venture to guess that FF, Spider-Man, and X-Men are the ONLY comics that would be necessary to generate a solid core.
 
 
John Octave
01:48 / 08.09.04
Controversial, perhaps, but I don't think of Spider-Man as a "core" title, at least not in the way I think you mean. From a sales point of view, he's of a very high importance. But as far as providing "stability" to the fictional structure, I think FF, Avengers and X-Men are the most essential.

FF--explore the Marvel Universe you have established; cornerstone book
Avengers--superhero escapades within your superhero universe
X-Men--explore the mutant phenomenon, which is unique to the Marvel U.

Spider-Man would be subordinate to the Avengers, because it's a "true" superhero book as well (in theory, the FF and X-Men are not superheroes in the traditional fight-crime sense; the FF are explorers and the X-Men are social activists and/or a "rescue and emergency squad" like Morrison called them), although I suppose you could argue Spidey's important in that he gives the "common man's" perspective of the Marvel U.

Or, indeed, I may have completely confused what you meant by "core title" and have not contributed to this discussion in the slightest.
 
 
Aertho
02:51 / 08.09.04
Not at all. You understood what i meant exactly. It was merely a hypothetical... assuming Marvel was to use the Ultimate line to preserve the essential operating system of the Marvel Universe. The fact that there's an Ultimate Elektra book makes me question whether that's even a thought in the publisher's head.
 
 
John Octave
03:37 / 08.09.04
Ah, good. Yeah, I actually think the four ongoing titles Ultimate Marvel has (there ARE only four ongoings, right? FF, Spidey, Ultimates, X-Men. I was under the impression Ultimate Elektra was a mini, but I could be wrong) are the only ones you need for the "operating system" (love that term, by the way). Any more and I think it's gonna start getting unwieldly and missing the point. Ultimate Hulk would be the next logical step, but I hope they resist the urge.

By the way, does anyone else feel that "Ultimate" is a bad title for the line? It doesn't really mean anything in context, and in theory makes the other titles look worse in comparison ("Well, if this is Ultimate Spider-Man, Amazing Spider-Man must not, by definition, be as good." Or am I just having semantic fun?)
 
 
wicker woman
06:06 / 08.09.04
Quick question for anyone following Ult. Spider-Man. I haven't really been following it, but while at the comic shop, I've picked up and flipped through the last couple of issues in the 'Carnage' storyline.

Now, right after
*SPOILER*












Gwen Stacy gets dead





*END SPOILER*


Aunt May, coming upon the scene, says something like "Oh no, not again." Is there supposed to be some sort of connection between the Ult. universe and the main one, and if so, why is Marvel stupid?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:10 / 08.09.04
Possibly, not another death so soon after Uncle Ben?
 
 
sleazenation
09:25 / 08.09.04
Aunt May, coming upon the scene, says something like "Oh no, not again." Is there supposed to be some sort of connection between the Ult. universe and the main one, and if so, why is Marvel stupid?

No I just think someone just engaged the infinite improbability drive - Now all we have to worry about is if some (sweet aunt) Petunias show up...
 
 
doctorbeck
11:39 / 08.09.04
john said

>I suppose you could argue Spidey's important in that he >gives the "common man's" perspective of the Marvel U.

i like that point very much
and this is what the appeal of spidey must have been about for me as a 12 year old, and most other comic fans, he was just like us (weak, a bit nerdy, not in the in crowd at school) but he had a cool secret and everyday worries

he may not be the operating system of the UMU but he's how we exoerience it, including the big sinister forces out there moving at the edges of our lives, maybe even the human heart at the centre of the MU and the UMU?

the cohesive nature of the stories is obviouly a big appeal to my continuity-headed inner-fanboy but it's having spidey at the middle of it that makes it real and alive (fuck did i really say that?)

however....i miss the freewhelling nonsense in the regular MU, the eternals, celestials, multiple future timeline, tony staks from the past, tangled summers-grey family trees and all and the desperate attempts to make it as cohesive whole, power pack meeting thor and going to asgard etc etc#

and there are more fights, which is a bonus

a
 
 
chaos_15
12:44 / 08.09.04
Personally i like the Millar's UXM a lot. It's a lot of problem in what comes to being coherent but it's a fun read and i think that's the main goal of the title (although i agree the last arc was horrible).

The Ultimates is a great, fun read with great characters. The problem is that i've lost interest when i found out it wasn't coming back this year.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:13 / 08.09.04
>> Aunt May, coming upon the scene, says something like "Oh no, not again." Is there supposed to be some sort of connection between the Ult. universe and the main one, and if so, why is Marvel stupid?

Haus is 1,000,000 % right. Not another death -- discovered when she comes home, no less -- of someone she loves and is close to after Uncle Ben.
 
 
Uatu.is.watching
14:09 / 08.09.04
I read that as referring to both Uncle Ben and Gwen's father. Aunt May and Peter took in Gwen after her father was killed. Throw in Peter's parents, and Aunt May has had a lot of death to deal with.
 
 
spacemonkey
03:42 / 09.09.04
>> one thing i have to praise it for is that in ultimate 6 tony stark asks if they went back in time to get spiderman, brilliant deep geek ref that i would not have got were it not for someone posting the strange story of iron man on the MU trivia list a while back

I took that as Stark's shock in realizing that Spider-Man is played by a 15 year old kid. What strange story is that referencing?

Wouldn't it be cool if Spider-Man was really forced to join the Ultimates at 18, with a new Bryan Hitch designed costume? Would he keep his secret identity? Would he do the college thing? It would be a drastic change from being the broke, misunderstood superhero.
 
 
doctorbeck
07:13 / 09.09.04
>I took that as Stark's shock in realizing that Spider-Man >is played by a 15 year old kid. What strange story is >that referencing?

well spacemonkey you might have to dig through that marvel trivia thread for the full story but as far as i can remember at some point the avengers went back in time to get a tony stark from the past and brought him to the present to be iron man, following tony dispearing or dying or something. no way the U-MU would ever get that convuluted time-line stuff, which is a bit of a shame

and what's this about no more Ultimates? say it ain't so....


a
 
 
chaos_15
13:50 / 09.09.04
It's not like the Ultimates won't be coming back it's just that everything seems to show that they won't be doing it this year. It's a shma, actually. I know Brian hitch and Mark Millar will do something big and completely new with the second volume (or at least I hope so), but all this wait is killing my interest in the book.

UFF is very good. I like very much, with it's funny moments and characters interactions. Besides I love Ellis' Susan Storm. She's probably one of the best super heroines ever.
 
 
Simplist
15:45 / 09.09.04
...all this wait is killing my interest in the book.

I've never quite understood this sentiment. The two year wait between Harry Potter books doesn't seem to kill anyone's interest. Just skip the slim and infrequent "monthly" issues (and avoid online spoilers), think of Ultimates as a graphic novel series that comes out in yearly installments, and enjoy the hell out of those TPs or hardcovers.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
16:56 / 09.09.04
USM is just spread way too thin these days, coming out almost weekly. What used to be vibrant and brash about the book is now stale and rushed. You want the goods? BK Vaughn on UXM. Yes, they did indeed keep publishing the book after Millar left. Unfortunately they decided to bring one of the Kubert's back too. BOO TO THAT. UFF is just top drawer stuff on every level, and I don't mind the Doom redesign. My sensibilties have never recovered from the design for S'ym back in the Claremont days (Sorry, Chris! Dave won this one with Wolveroach, beyotch!) and no character design has even been that bad since. So, you know, no harm no foul. A teenager running around in the classic Doom get-up would have probably looked even stupider. Ellis on UFF and U Nightmare is probably the best the UMU has been since Ultimates ended. And somehow Erksine is so less annoying to me than he was on U6.

My perception of the the UMU versus the Regular MU (what does 616 mean exactly?) is that it's Grunge Reverse Engineering. 'Nevermind' and 'Ten' were over produced hyper commercialized precursors for 'In Utero' and 'Vs'. The UMU is produced by Butch Vig, Stan and Jack are/were Steve Albini. There's just no chance for the UMU to ever have that underdog, raw, subversive quality that the original books had, but there will always be a "Territorial Pissing" or "Porch" that's so good it bursts through its sacchrine shell and MUST BE HEARD. The Ultimates, BKVUXM, and Ellis' stuff are those songs. Everything else is just decent stuff, spit polished within an inch of its airbrush covered life.

That being said, I have pretty much every Ultimate comic, just because my brain won't let me pass up the chance to be a for real completist of an entire Marvel Universe.
 
 
The Falcon
17:34 / 09.09.04
Erksine? Hairsine.

Do you even have Ultimate Adventures, Birdie?
 
  

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