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Discordia

  
  

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LVX23
21:55 / 21.09.04
What an oddly discordant thread...

I've been a bit busy lately so I haven't been following the 'Lith too closely. As a result of my cursory reading of this thread I don't have much to add other than:

1) RAW was one of the progenitors of Discordia. Idol worship aside, I generally find just about everything the man says to meaningful in some way.
2) I really liked macrophage's idea of starting our own anti-religion. This resonates a lot with where my head's been at lately. If you see staleness in magick or esoterica or metaphysics, then re-write the rules and make your own. All rites reversed!
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
01:40 / 23.09.04
Ok, my prof hasn't gotten back to me yet, but I got out the $75 Classical Mythology textbook it turns out I can't use (...long story involving incorrect course information in the books, wrong information about course texts, and the fact that the books wholly failed to mention the course had two different sections...but I digress).

The quote, and bibliographical info, from my Classical Myth textbook is below. I'll post more once my prof emails me back with, I hope, a reference to a primary source document (ie. what original Greek text its referenced from).

Quote:
"Hera evidently was grateful to Thetis for not having slept with her husband and was instrumental in providing Thetis the most spelndid wedding ever held, on the slopes of Mount Pelion."
-Powell, Barry B. Classical Myth, 4th Edition. Pearson Prentice Hall, New Jersey, 2004. Pg. 519
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:42 / 23.09.04
Yes.... that doesn't tell us who invited or did not invite the guests, however... thanks for looking, Bard - a primary source would be very useful.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
02:32 / 24.09.04
Yes.... that doesn't tell us who invited or did not invite the guests, however... thanks for looking, Bard - a primary source would be very useful.

Well, I looked in Catullus, which is sort of a primary and a half source, seeing as how he was Roman and all, but there's no mention I can find of who arranged for the party. Considering some of the other people that were invited (they invited a fricking centaur!), Eris may have been a cordial party guest. I mean...you know, minor arguments, instead of the events that jumpstart massive wars.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:12 / 24.09.04
I think that's based on a misunderstanding of Eris, for which see the last 25 posts or so... besides, centaurs are perfectly cordial guests as long as you don't let them drink, as any Lapith kno.
 
 
betty woo
15:33 / 24.09.04
Are we focusing on classical Eris mythology, or Eris mythology as filtered/presented by Discordianism? Because in the case of the later, they place the blame squarely on Zeus:

"It seems that Zeus was preparing a wedding banquet for Peleus and Thetis and did not want to invite Eris because of Her reputation as a trouble maker.*"
- Principia Discordia

Which sort of makes sense, as Hera was reportedly responsible for throwing the banquet, and was the sort to make her husband draft up the invite list. It's a telling attribution for Discordian theory, at any rate, since it places the Snub directly onto the leader of the Gods and casts Eris as a maligned but clever underdog (a nice fit with the common self-image of Discordians) - and then sums up by inviting the reader to question whether or not they believe the story at all.
 
 
Chiropteran
16:23 / 24.09.04
Are we focusing on classical Eris mythology, or Eris mythology as filtered/presented by Discordianism?

I think that's the big question: to what extent does/should the classical Eris inform modern Discordians? And if the answer is "not so much," does that automatically invalidate the Discordian conception of Eris?

It certainly seems like there is something there when one calls on Eris (as I have) "seriously" - whether or not it's the same entity/principle/force that the ancient Greeks called Eris is up for grabs, but if it is then She seems to have mellowed a great deal since then. "Discord," as framed in modern Erisian thinking, is much closer to what we might think of as the aim of a Trickster or prankster - especially one who uses pranks and humour to educate people or shake them out of self-defeating patterns (and whether or not that is what usually happens among Discordians, it at least seems to be the intent expressed in the Principia). We can argue back and forth about historical/mythological details or about what words like "discord" "Really" mean, but it's pretty clear that Malaclypse the Younger had something else in mind. Call him a poor scholar, if you will, but he'd probably just smile and give you a hotdog.

~Bush Loses
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:30 / 24.09.04
Betty: I think we're looking for classical attributions at present, since the Hera attribution was provided by Bard's Classical Myth teacher. The general cause is that Zeus and Themis were trying to slim down the human population, and used this as a way of doing it (Cypria), but the exact details are uncertain. This is particularly poignant, as it makes Peleus and Thetis the innocent victims of the whole affair.

The idea that Eris is a "troublemaker" seems to me to be an attempt to create a trickster deity, rather than the primal and powerful entity of Greek myth. I wonder if the eristic/aneristic dichotomy, diluting the more linguistically satisfying and more cosmic dichotomy of eris and eros is a move in the same direction...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:45 / 24.09.04
In response to that interpost: I think it's possible to discuss both. The ignorance of the former shown by some of the proponents of the latter I find a tad dangerous, since they are simultaneously stealing various cult appertenances of the Greek Eris (such as the apple) while claiming to be dealing with the "mellow, modern" Eris, who is simultaneously represented as in effect a different deity. As mentioned above, it is in the interests of the creators of Discordianism to write off the Greeks, on the grounds that the alternative is a lot of tedious research - Bard is showing that finding practical sources is a bit of a pig, and Tom Tit Tom found the process of substantiating an (incorrect) statement both impossible and upsetting.
 
 
Chiropteran
17:30 / 24.09.04
Haus: I think you're right about the attempt to create a ("new") Trickster figure. I seriously doubt that any of the original Discordians (Kerry Thornley, Robert A. Wilson, et al) actually believed* in the objective reality of a being named Eris, or that they necessarily made a thorough survey of the various primary sources cited in this thread. Rather, I suspect that they (Thornley in particular) needed a "Deity Figure" to head their new not-quite-a-religion/not-quite-just-a-joke, and went for Eris as a Goddess (to fit with their anti-patriarchal ideas) who, on an "Encyclopedia of Gods & Goddesses" level, is associated with "Chaos" (these are counterculture types living under what they feel is a repressive system of Law and Order that seeks to crush personal expression and creativity, and their interpretation of chaos is shaped accordingly**). As a bonus, she plays a role in a very well know story (even among non-Classical Lit enthusiasts). Tweak the myth out a little to fit a modern agenda and Voila, instant Happy Funky Female Trickster Babe.

They could very well have just created a totally original deity with virtually all the same attributes, but they chose to tap into popular (half-remembered) myth for a little resonance. As a bit of stoney and silly culture-play it was fun, and it said a few things that were probably pretty meaningful for some people (it did a lot for me, back in the day), and it spawned a lot of annoying in-jokes. The creators have since moved on.

Meanwhile (and I feel myself slipping back into the Pop Culture Deities thread), even though the early Discordians (and probably most self-proclaimed Discordians since) likely don't believe all that hard in Eris as an actual honest-to-Pete Goddess, personal experience and shared stories from others suggest that when you say "Eris?" something says "What?"

~Bush Loses

*Thornley was an atheist, and R.A.W. is an avowed agnostic

**they also lived in a recently post-WWII world, where their feelings about Order are also informed by childhood images of "the trains running on schedule" in Nazi Germany, and the horrors of modern mechanized warfare in general. Thornley also had an uncomfortable relationship with Law: he was called on during the investigation of JFK's assassination on account of his relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald (they were in the Marines together). In this light, a little "chaos" looks like a good thing.
 
  

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