BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Black homophobia

 
 
Ganesh
01:23 / 31.08.04
I'm aware that I may be somewhat ill-equipped to negotiate what seems, to me, a contentious area - so bear with me, please, and look kindly on my inevitable errors of (cross-)culture.

Ever since coming to London (and starting afresh, with no-one knowing anything of me or my background) I've been acutely aware of the various circumstances in which I decide to 'come out' as gay at work. Generalising wildly, it's been a relatively smooth ride apart from with two groups: young black males and young Muslim males. I've yet to be on the receiving end of anything nasty but I've found that, after telling people I'm gay, I've occasionally been blanked by young black/Muslim colleagues, who no longer seem to want to talk to me.

I've discussed it with another colleague, a forty-year-old black social worker, originally from Jamaica. He bemoans what he sees as widespread homophobia among black West Indians, who apparently view homosexuality as a 'white man's disease'. The recent schism between African and English Anglicans would seem to tacitly reinforce that view.

I was reminded of it when I read a Time Out supplement for the Notting Hill Carnival, which included a section on 'hottest moves' (ahem). Close-dancing with one's partner was applauded ("let your hands wander"), as was the phenomenon of two women dancing together ("the Ladyway. One for the ladies. Dress head to toe in your finest urban wear. Lean up close to your best girl-friend then sway to the beat. Let the fellas' imagination run wild."). Oddly enough, two men dancing together didn't feature.

It's a tricky area. Any thoughts on black homophobia?
 
 
Querelle
03:43 / 31.08.04
This topic reminds me of a question that has been bothering me for some time: Why are so many black leaders publicly and vehemently opposed to classifying the struggle for gay rights as a civil rights issue? It seems like they think their struggle trumps all others, and the term is somehow unfit to be applied to anything other than their hallowed cause. You would think people who were so oppressed in the past would have a little bit of sympathy, if not empathy, for what gays are going through now. Apparently not.

Conservatives Decry Homosexual 'Hijacking' of Civil Rights Movement

Black caucus resists comparison of gay 'marriage' to civil rights

Homosexual Agenda Unrelated to Civil Rights Movement, Conservative Blacks Insist

et al.
 
 
Cat Chant
10:28 / 31.08.04
Oddly enough, two men dancing together didn't feature.

Aside: I was at the Chapeltown Carnival in Leeds yesterday with my Australian gf, who was shocked and delighted by the bump'n'grindiness of the m/f and f/f dancing and found it very non-het, but I kept an eye out and no, two men dancing together didn't feature. Then we went off onto a long conversation about colonization and masculinity and whether lesbians from colonized cultures/races had it easier or not - we hypothesized that cross-culturally the boundaries of female heterosexuality aren't policed as much - girls can touch each other without it being a threat to their 'femininity', for example - but being an out lesbian is a different kettle of fish.

It's a tricky area. Any thoughts on black homophobia?

I know homophobia in Jamaica has been in the news lately. This article draws a sensationalizing link between Jamaican popular music/hip-hop and the murder of Brian Williamson, but whatever the roots of it it looks like mainstream Jamaican culture is violently and pervasively homophobic (and not just against men).

I suspect that Fanon-type theories of colonization - the black man being demasculinized or hypermasculinized by the white colonizer - are at play here, so that decolonization and personal autonomy are linked in the psyche with certain forms of heterosexual masculinity - like Jason over in the Big Brother thread, but in this case specifically bound up with the experience of one's race. And, well... everyone just hates lesbians, don't they? I think there's a specific blind spot over black anti-lesbian stuff, partly because I think there is a particular rhetoric about decolonization and empowerment being linked to being "a man", so black masculinity is theoretically privileged, and partly because... I don't know why, but I'm thinking of Audre Lorde's Zami: A New Spelling of my Name. Most of the stuff around black or colonized lesbianism (or f/f sexuality/romance) that I've come across has been in the context of reclaiming matriarchal traditions from the precolonial context, so that the perception I have - which is probably skewed by the types of reading that I do - is that black lesbianism is theorized as reclaiming precolonial autonomy and culture, and black male homosexuality is theorized as going against both personal autonomy (metaphorized as masculine impregnability) and the precolonial culture (homosexuality as imported Western decadence).

But all this may very well be nonsense, of course: it's on a very abstract level, but I don't think that immediately equates to determinism - I mean, I don't think saying that decolonization and forms of heterosexual masculinity are conceptually and sometimes psychologically linked means that all men from colonized cultures will make or react to that link in the same way, or indeed that there aren't differences between colonized cultures or between groups and individuals within colonized cultures. So I hope it doesn't sound deterministic.
 
 
the Fool
01:59 / 02.09.04
I noticed that in the linked articles 'gay' is often associated directly with 'white', especially in the first one. 'Gay' as a white man's disease/problem, where Gay people of other ethnic backgrounds somehow don't register.
 
 
the Fool
23:42 / 02.09.04
Is there such a thing as the 'downlow'? I was watching Law and Order SVU last night (yes I know, not really the best source) and it had this group of Black men who all had sex with each other but didn't consider themselves gay. They were on the 'downlow' as Ice T put it. I've heard this before mentioned in the context of arab men. Where apparently men have sex with other men so as not to be unfaithful to the wives technically (I think). 'Men are for sex, women are for marriage'. Though don't consider themselves gay in any way, or even bisexual.
 
 
Cat Chant
09:03 / 03.09.04
this group of Black men who all had sex with each other but didn't consider themselves gay

I know I've heard this discussed by a virologist friend who used to research HIV transmission - there's a problem in questionnaires because some men do not consider what they do with other men to be "sex", for whatever reason, and thus answer "no" if you ask whether they have "had sex" with men (for example). Can't remember if she said there were specific cultural/racial contexts for this.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:07 / 03.09.04
Yeah, I think the phenomenon of 'straight' men having some kind of sexual activity with other men in secret and denying that it makes them gay is something pretty well-established regardless of skin colour or sub-culture, y'know? Maybe the level of secrecy varies with class though.

This thread makes me very nervous, I have to confess. I know that might make some wag tell me that I see everything as "racist", but I hope most people can see it's a little more complicated than that, and understand why. While I don't want to endorse a position that means that white queer people are afraid to challenge homophobia on the part of non-white people, all evidence suggests that Barbelith's population is currently overwhelmingly white, and the thought of a bunch of white people dissecting "Black homophobia" produces an involuntarily queasy response... I don't know what the solution is to that dilemma, though.
 
 
passer
20:11 / 03.09.04
I think everyone should be free to discuss race, although I also think that everyone should also always be very conscious of how they discuss race and their own racism. I hate the idea that being of a certain race (gender, class, sexual orientation, etc.) is the prerequisite for discussing pertinent issues. There’s a big difference between being critical and being racist. Therefore, I say charge ahead and if someone’s edging toward racist, hopefully they’ll get called on it and ideally they’ll learn from it.

I think Deva’s on to something. Black men are generally culturally groomed to focus on their masculinity. I also think a significant part of that is a reaction to racism. White fear of black masculinity forced white colonizers to degrade Black men while that same degradation forces black men to compensate by protecting their own masculinity by over-exaggerating it.

However, there is also the issue of faith in black communities. For many colonized black communities the Christian faith became a refuge against dehumanization at the hands of owners. The black church later developed a significant role in the black community and civil rights organizations. So in this special case black loyalty to church doctrine prevents alternate sexualities from becoming minority allies. This connection makes the comparison of GLBT rights to the civil rights moment offensive to many civil rights leaders.

It’s an accepted and lamented truth for black gays and lesbians that to come out as openly gay is to lose the support of most black communities. There is a great deal of tension between the gay community and the black gay community. In many cities they operate in primarily segregated circles. Gay pride is usually a separate celebration from black gay pride. Class also ties in to this. Generally speaking, the more privileged you are the easier it is to be gay. Although by no means easy, it is easier to be increasingly open about your sexuality if you don’t also have to be concerned with racism, sexism, and classism. Thus the view that most gay people are middle to upper class white males.

On the down low does certainly exist, although to clarify it is used to cover just about any sexual relationship you don’t want openly acknowledged. (On a side note, that was one of the worst acted and most poorly written Law & Order SVUs I’ve seen. Shame on you Ice T.) I think it was E. Lynn Harris’ novels in the states that first openly popularized what had been an unspoken issue in the black community. A quick search on Amazon will bring up a slew of books about being black and gay and the particular issues that raises.
 
 
eddie thirteen
19:12 / 07.09.04
Last semester, I took an African-American Politics workshop -- one I entered into with no small amount of trepidation, being one of the whiter white people I know (kinda like the guy from Weezer gone vaguely goth and seedy), and knowing that the class was taught by a man who had been prominent in the Black Panthers in the '60s and '70s. As it happened, he not only wasn't at all racist (well, okay, maybe a little, but you could tell he was struggling with it -- and seriously, once you see photos of the guy getting his ass kicked by a bunch of white cops and hear stories of the FBI in essence stalking his family, you...me, at least...do kinda have to wonder how he managed NOT to be a racist), but was fairly enlightened, went well out of his way to include female Civil Rights leaders in his lectures (and include female students in class discussions), was an avowed follower of Islam but spoke of other faiths only with the utmost respect and a genuine interest in learning about them from students of varied backgrounds...in short, this was a guy who had clearly back in the day believed in equality, and now that he was an educator, he regarded his classroom as a (to ref another thread) TAZ where debate was encouraged and discrimination didn't exist. A hell of a guy.

But.

One day, the subject of gay marriage was raised, and you would not BELIEVE how incensed he got. Before my very eyes, this otherwise reasonable and intelligent -- not to mention highly educated -- human being turned into a drooling psychopath. He explained to us in no uncertain terms that homosexuality was "a trap," a tool of enslavement, as bad as or worse than drug addiction for the human spirit, etc., and I am NOT making this up. One guy nodded and "right on"-ed; everyone else just kinda sat there in atypical silence, perhaps as shocked to see an instructor behave this way as they were by anything he actually said. And, to be honest, I have no idea how anyone else felt about what the prof was saying, because...well...y'know, his demeanor just didn't brook any argument, and perhaps at a more liberal university that wouldn't have mattered, but -- considering no one there was actually majoring in poli-sci, they just needed to fulfill a requirement, really could have cared less about the subject and basically just wanted their credits and to be released back into the wild without incident at the end of every class period -- no one said a word. I guess, though, that I must have looked pretty floored, because the prof looked at me and said, "Mike -- I can tell you've got something to say about this." But I just shook my head; I'm sure my expression spoke volumes, and since the two of us got along pretty well, I suppose my evident horror convinced him to close the subject, since he subsequently did.

Even so -- and despite that I did like the prof, both as a person and as an instructor -- I was strongly tempted to approach the dean about the incident: I kept wondering, given that the prof was the kind of guy I could see a lot of students taking as a role model, what effect his words could have had on someone younger, more impressionable. Or, more to the point, what effect his words DID have on someone younger and more impressionable...because the workshop was mostly comprised of students in their late teens and early twenties. (I was on the old side because the school decided at the last minute I hadn't fulfilled a prereq in...hell, something, I forget now.) Suppose one of them were gay; or, maybe worse, suppose one of them had come into the class bigoted against gays -- a class, mind you, established in part to reform bigoted mindsets -- and came out of the class feeling justified in his/her prejudice?

That last is what I find most disturbing about this subject: it isn't as if no white leaders preach bigotry, but those leaders (at least the most extreme ones) tend to somewhat marginalized. Almost invariably, these are the most rabid conservatives. They're easier to dismiss. When it's black leaders, however (and it certainly isn't every black leader) -- often people whose politics are otherwise radical -- it all gets very murky. Is it enough to agree on most subjects and agree to disagree on others? When it's a matter of prejudice, is agreeing to disagree even a real option? I don't know.
 
 
the Fool
22:50 / 07.09.04
Have you thought of saying what you just said here to your professor? I know its probably daunting and a bit scary but what you've stated here is a very concise critique of his actions in this regard. I know, easy for me to say here on the other side of the world, but maybe he needs to hear it?
 
 
eddie thirteen
06:10 / 08.09.04
At this much later date (what I wrote about took place this past winter), it would be a little awkward (though I am sure he would know what I was talking about). Uh...but I guess it would be a little awkward anyway, which is why I suppose I didn't say anything back then. Not to sound like a wuss, but even at 60-plus, he's just not a guy you wanna get in an argument with, and I frankly don't relish the idea. But yeah, it seemed to me even at the time that it was something that someone really *should* say to him...especially in academia, I honestly can't see how he can hang on to ideas that seem so...well...archaic. For that matter, I can't see how he hasn't met enough gays to even kinda reconsider his stance on the matter. Uh...I'll let you know if I develop the guts to drop into his office and take it up with him.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:51 / 08.09.04
It is troubling and depressing when people who are right about a lot of things and engaged in fighting against oppression and injustive on many levels are unable to see their own prejudices for what they are. It happens all the time - happens all the time on Barbelith, for example, whether it's queer feminist activists slipping into Daily Mail-style scaremongering about marauding "gangs" of black youths, or supposedly left-wing people sneering at the ignorant, tracksuit-wearing "pikeys". (If I was feeling combative, I could even pick apart the expectations you went into that class with: namely that a former Black Panther would be racist (why?) and unenlightened.)

I don't want to defend this individual's homophobia, but at the same time, I don't know if there are any worthwhile wider truths that can be inferred from this example.

What I really cannot agree at all with is the implication that in the dominant white culture homophobic viewpoints are marginalised - I'd love to see some evidence of this, because it seems pretty obvious that homophobia is widely accepted in mainstream UK and US politics and culture, for starters. Which I guess gets to the heart of why this thread makes me antsy...

(On a somewhat off-topic tangent, I really don't think you have grounds for going to the dean about the incident if you weren't prepared to disagree at the time. Not that I blame you for being reluctant to do the latter, but doing the former without the latter is not something I would be comfortable with.)
 
 
Linus Dunce
18:25 / 08.09.04
What I really cannot agree at all with is the implication that in the dominant white culture homophobic viewpoints are marginalised

And, in turn, that the homophobia of an indeterminate number of black people is being generalised.

This is interesting stuff. Does anyone else think it may be implicitly articulating a question on the nature of identity politics?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:10 / 08.09.04
Hmmm... what one could possibly say is that different cultures conceive of and express homophobia in different ways... and that it is easier to locate and define homophobia outside one's own culture. Is that a possible way to resolve our first hurdle?
 
 
eddie thirteen
20:56 / 08.09.04
Well, it wasn't so much that I expected my prof to be unenlightened, per se, but I *did* feel racism against whites wasn't totally to be unexpected (and I suppose that, yeah, that could be read as a sign of, for lack of a better term, unenlightenment). Honestly, though, I think that fear on my part had less to do with racism (on behalf of yours truly) than ageism (which, admittedly, is no better) -- not knowing what to expect, I anticipated that the prof's ideas may have been stuck in an era when racism against whites on the part of radical black leaders was quite common, and arguably more excusable than it would be today. And this fear had much less to do with the prof's race or political affiliations than it did my previous encounters with a great many elderly educators who were (are) profoundly stuck in their ways. It may be stereotyping to suggest that people 'round about retirement age are not always especially in tune with contemporary thought, and often (as in this case) that is not so; but at least as often, it is.

As for whether approaching school administration is okay if I'm reluctant to confront the professor himself...on one level, I agree with you. If I have an issue with something he's said, it stands to reason I should take the matter up with him, as opposed to his employer. (Incidentally, one of the major reasons I did *not* approach the dean is because the prof is so radical, and my now-alma mater is going through administrative changes that render it increasingly conservative...i.e., I wouldn't be surprised if the prof is on a list of people they're looking to fire. Sounds paranoid, I know, but he wouldn't be the first hellraiser to find himself suddenly out of the university's employ in the past few years.) On the other hand, he IS a professor, and I was his student, which means we're not exactly standing on even ground here. Granted, I'm no longer a student of the university at all, but...yeah, I dunno. I always had a bit of a rough time standing up to my dad, too. It's kinda like that. Still, if/when I see him again, I...well, we'll see what shape my backbone is in at that moment.

As a result of his workshop, though, I do feel at least a little qualified to address the disparity between the homophobia expressed by white political leaders v. that which is expressed by black political leaders. I think the troubling difference is that most black political leaders in no way associate themselves with white conservatives -- who are far more likely to express homophobia than white liberals (even if some of those white liberals almost certainly feel a homophobia they simply know better than to openly express). In this regard, however, some black leaders are very much in the Bush/Cheney camp (and actually, even Dick Cheney seems -- for all his other problems -- to be kinda liberal in this regard), even if when it comes to their basic belief tenets, they're otherwise practically socialists...and that's a problem. It's not JUST a race problem, though -- because these homophobic sentiments seem to come out of religious dogma. Proportionately, more black leaders come into politics from a religious background (Christian or Islamic) than a secular one, and I think there's less pressure on them to downplay their religious beliefs than you find with most white liberal pols. In time this will probably change, and we'll have black and white politicians in about equal number who downplay their religious beliefs in order to appeal to the widest constituency possible; at present, though, when black politicians are still largely elected at a local level, distancing themselves from religious convictions shared by much of their constituency would only lose them votes. It's obvious there are broader questions implicit in all of this -- for instance, the sincerity of politicians who DO downplay their religious convictions (but hype them when, say, at a fundraiser banquet hosted by a religious group).

...you begin to see why many of the debates in the afore-mentioned workshop, while entertaining, led to no actual conclusions or consensus on much of anything, and yeah, the lack of black people on Barbelith is also starting to make slightly uncomfortable right now, so I'll stop.
 
 
Linus Dunce
20:56 / 08.09.04
And easier to locate and define racism outside one's own culture. So maybe there's a kind of reciprocal thing going on that means that identity politics work in a unconsciously complementary rather than a negligently conflicting way ... maybe. As long as one isn't left out of the game.
 
 
diz
15:20 / 15.09.04
yeah, the lack of black people on Barbelith is also starting to make slightly uncomfortable right now, so I'll stop.

well, it's hard to say for certain that there aren't a lot of black people on Barbelith, since it's hard to determine the race of posters in an online forum. however, Barbelith does seem culturally similar to a lot of other predominantly-white institutions and groups i've been affiliated with. i went to an experimental private liberal arts college in Massachusetts full of people studying queer theory and the semiotics of pop culture and avant-garde art and so on and so forth, which overlaps a lot with the people drawn to the Barb, and our inability to attract racially-diverse students (most specifically, our inability to draw African-Americans and people of Caribbean descent) was an ongoing issue that caused a lot of consternation. i'm also involved with the Burning Man community, which also overlaps with Barbelith-type things and where green people seem to be more common than black people. Barbelith reminds me of both those cultures, and so i tend to assume, as you do in your post, that there aren't a lot of black people here, either.

i had a discussion with a Latina faculty member at my college discussing why we were so unable to attract students of color. she advanced the theory that the school's professed ethos of nonconformity, individualism, and resistance to tradition resonated more with middle-class and affluent white kids raised in a consumerist society which holds individual liberty and satisfaction in high regard than it did with many nonwhite communities, which in her opinion tended to place more importance on community and institutions like families, churches, etc.

i countered by saying that i thought it had more to do with risk assessment. in the US, people of color are disproportionately poor and disproportionately unlikely to be financially able to attend college, and so in the event that they are able to defy the odds and go to college, they are highly likely to play it safe with their choice of college. in other words, having gotten that far, a poor black kid from the ghetto isn't going to blow their one chance to escape poverty on some experimental hippie school, but will most likely go to a very normal, practical, mainstream school, to maximize their chances of making the most of the opportunity.

we came to the conclusion that our two positions may, in fact, be mutually supportive and interrelated. closer ties to traditional community institutions and extended family networks are often materially helpful for economically disadvantaged people, often to the point of necessity. this leads to a certain amount of cultural conservatism: the further you go from the values of your community, the less likely you are to have support from that community when you need it. as a result, individuals tend to subordinate individual expression to the mores of the community.

i think this can go a long way towards explaining attitudes like this:

He explained to us in no uncertain terms that homosexuality was "a trap,"

the word choice here is telling. conservatives in America consistently point to the "breakdown of the traditional family" as the root cause of poverty (especially inner-city black poverty), which i think puts the cart before the horse in a grotesque fashion. massively inequitable economic systems and a host of other systemic issues keep people poor, and poverty is certainly not primarily rooted in "moral decline."

however, a certain degree of upward mobility in terms of class and economic status does exist, however minimal, for a small number of people who have some sort of "out." and, well... i feel uncomfortable saying this, but those people who do have such paths out of poverty in front of them usually need to optimize their chances of turning that potential escape into a reality by adhering to tightly conservative personal behavior.

this is not to say that poverty is caused by "immorality," or, crucially, that people in general can escape poverty through conservative behavior. if you're born poor in the US, you can work hard and adhere to a positively Puritanical code of ethics without much luck. however, people on track to escape the cycle of poverty can be, and often are, derailed by things like unplanned pregancies, drug arrests, etc. if an affluent white suburban teenage boy gets busted with a bag of pot, he is more likely to know a good lawyer in who can help get him off, family members who can cover fines, etc, than a black teen from a disadvantaged background. also, a clean-cut white kid is more likely to receive lenient treatment from the criminal justice system in the first place than a black youth from the inner city.

along the same lines, people who escape from poverty usually need the support of a broad support network to do it. parents have to scrimp and save and make sacrifices to make sure that their kids can get out, and churches and youth groups have to offer scholarships, etc etc. moving one kid from poverty to the middle class is almost always a team effort. as such, anything that disrupts the cohesiveness and homogeneity of the community endangers the chance of individual success. if someone comes out as queer, they may (for instance) lose the support of their church, which may make the difference between going to college and not going to college.

on the other side of the coin, the more secure someone is in their socioeconomic status, the more they can afford to make waves. on one hand, the support network is likely to be broader, so you can afford to offend Uncle Joe because you still have other affluent relatives. also, the support demanded by a middle-class kid comes at less cost to middle-class parents. a single mother working a minimum wage job will have a hard time paying her own rent and bills, much less helping out someone else, whereas a successful accountant is unlikely to experience much hardship from offering support. as a result, they can do so more casually, and there's a lot more wiggle room in terms of emotional comfort. an affluent kid can push their parents farther emotionally because proportionately, they're asking for less.

as a result, the risks involved in publicly flouting social conventions or alienating friends and family are much, much higher for poor people than for middle-class or wealthier people. because black people are disproportionately poor, black culture has evolved to reflect that. accordingly, a lot of black activists and community leaders have come to look at risky or "deviant" behaviors as "trap," as things that will totally fuck up the chances of otherwise promising black youth trying to escape poverty, because, to no small extent, they can do so.

as much as it gives me hives to frame things in this way, and as shitty as it is, being openly queer bears social costs which are easier to bear for the affluent than they are for the poor, especially considering the myriad ways that social costs translate more readily into economic costs the further down the economic ladder you go.
 
 
Johnny Nitro
07:01 / 25.09.04
What does it say about us colonizing, assuming, sympathetic white guys to be so interested in gay black sociology? a bit of racial awareness and lack of an idealogical battlefield (at least one worth acknowledging) if you ask me...which you never did.
 
 
eddie thirteen
19:02 / 25.09.04
Thanks, Johnny. You, um...you cleared that right up, I...guess....
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
17:16 / 16.11.04
I'm just back from the Windies, having spent a month out visiting family...I was in DCA for the World Creole Music festival and went to all three nights...

Saturday night was headlined by none other than Elephant Man and I have to say it was quite the most surreal gig I've ever attended.

I was stupidly stoned and worse the wear for Rumpunch, and had partied til 8 in the morning the night before (First Serenade (soca) and loads of Salsa and Zoukous, all of which I love), so I sat and did my Peeping routine from the sidelines...Apart from the fact that his band were SHIT, and everytime they did manage to get into half a groove, they'd stop, REEEWIND, and launch into something else entirely, I was quite freaked out at just how negative and hateful this cretin's songs really are.

It was deliberately the 'young' night of the festival, and packed with yute, the vast majority of which were heaping cheer upon cheer and many a rag-in-the-air for gunshots to chi chi men head dem...I mean, the young (mainly boys) receive much of their wisdom about sexual identity from this and this alone...It was really intense, and I left about 10 mins before his set ended cos I had no idea how much longer this guy was going on for (and, as I said, his band were SHIT!)

Strange though, that towards the end of the set, all of this rampant big-up gangsta boom in a batty boy head bizniz gave way to peace&love&unity and more hippie-fied reggae sentiment, only to be topped, if that's the woprd, with a truly harrowing rendition of "The Lady in Red" by Chris de Burgh. Seriously. I never regretted getting so stoned so much in my life.

Anyroad, the papers in Dominica and Antigua were full of reportage on slackening attitudes to homosexuality in parts of the Caribbean (it has just been legalised in a certain part of Antigua, much to the ooutrage of many), and the editorial was not positive I can assure you. There genuinely is a great deal of homophobia entrenched in the Caribbean...but progress is being made, as evidenced by the Antigua example...Oddly enough, my sister-in-law came out as a lesbian (only to me, not my other half) on a night out, and seemed to genuinely not give a flying fuck what anyone else thought or said...Bless her little self.

Still, Ganesh, if you're thinking of heading out there for holidays with Xoc, I'd leave the leather's behind if I was you...
 
 
alas
18:18 / 16.11.04
eddie: Uh...I'll let you know if I develop the guts to drop into his office and take it up with him.

As a professor, can I just say that I would very much hope that you would 1) honor your gut instincts about not taking this to the university before even talking to him, and giving him a chance to respond, and 2) that you would, please, contact him.

You don't have to go to his office, particularly if you find his presence physically intimidating. WRITE him a signed letter (ideally not an email, since this is too serious an issue) with your address/email included so he can respond if he wishes. Be open, be honest, be sympathetic, be willing to reflect as openly on the limitations of your own position as you have been here, but tell him what you think and express willingness to continue the conversation.

A letter has the advantage of letting you carefully think through exactly where you stand, to get your message right, precise. This is critical in discussions of race where there's a minefield of historically charged language issues at play.

I urge you to do this, seriously. It's important! And, while you're at it, do be sure to let him know how useful you found the rest of the class--professors hear good feedback much more rarely than you might think. And too often complaints ARE simply mean-spirited rants that only have the effect of making the professor defensive. While you may feel like you have so little power in relation to a professor, remember that most of us are in this as our LIFE--our jobs have no clear boundaries. It's tied up with who we are. So any "attack" even coming from a single, little student, can feel like an attack on the core of our integrity.

So, in short, you probably have much more power than you think and you SHOULD use that power carefully, responsibly.
 
 
alas
18:30 / 16.11.04
And, back to the topic--and the question of a kind of cultural voyeurism is a risk here too, I realize--but a possibly overhyped but real issue that's related to this topic is the "down low" phenomenon in the US. Here's a recent book on the topic with lots of reader-reviews on Amazon. It's been an issue on Oprah, too, for whatever that's worth.

The basic issue is black men who have discreet sex with other men but don't consider themselves gay.

On the one hand, in the context of the US and my understanding of black culture(s), I'm sad because especially initially I tend to think this kind of phenomenon is certainly related to homophobia. Yet I also feel that it's somehow not that far off from Foucault's notion that it's not "natural" to define sexuality by the object of desire or one's participation in same-sex acts. I.e., We've not always view one's commission of descrete (i.e., singular, specific) sexual actions as almost infallible indices to one's "true" identity, and these men seem to be playing that out to some degree: yes we have sex with men but no we're not gay.

So, well, I'm interested. But I also realize that this issue does arise at a time when black masculinity is so pathologized, that this subject is deeply problematic at many levels. (Oh, and thanks diz for your really good post, here).
 
 
diz
18:05 / 17.11.04
Oh, and thanks diz for your really good post, here.

thank you for yours.

the downlow thing is interesting to me on a lot of levels. on a personal note, for some reason, i seem to get cruised by middle-aged black men (and a few middle-aged Latinos) who seem to be overtly heterosexual more often than most people i know, and more often than i get similar attention from younger, white openly gay males. it's always some 40-something black guy driving his wife's car on his way home from the grocery store who stops and offers me a blowjob or something. it's flattering, but odd as a pattern.

on another note:

Anyroad, the papers in Dominica and Antigua were full of reportage on slackening attitudes to homosexuality in parts of the Caribbean (it has just been legalised in a certain part of Antigua, much to the ooutrage of many), and the editorial was not positive I can assure you. There genuinely is a great deal of homophobia entrenched in the Caribbean...but progress is being made, as evidenced by the Antigua example...

does anyone know what the history of sex tourism is in the Caribbean with respect to same-sex prostitution? is it possible that that's a factor that's contributing to this, in addition to other issues we've talked about? if there's a strong history of rich white guys coming over and taking advantage of your poverty to bugger your boys, you might be inclined to take a dim view of homosexuality for a few generations.
 
 
Peach Pie
13:18 / 18.11.04
Ganesh: the last time I visited Jamaica, some of my young male black friends mentioned homophobia and said two things about it: 1) Jamaica is one of the most homophobic countries in the world, and 2) It has one of the highest percentage of gay men in terms of overall national population in the world.

It wasn't until the controversy over the lyrics ofBeenie man erupted that I realised how homophobic society was over there. One Guardian aricle claimed that 'out' homosexuals were likely to be run out of the country. Terribly sad, and a human rights scandal.
 
 
SteppersFan
13:06 / 31.01.05
Without wishing to collapse what is currently a sensitive and fascinating thread, I thought it might be relevant to mention an online campaign which I am involved in and which speaks to some of the issues raised here. It's called Dancehall Fans Against Homophobia and is a petition-based campaign that rejects homophobic lyrics, but which also rejects the recent attacks on dancehall and reggae by an over-zealous and ill-informed media which has largely demonized reggae for "causing" Jamaican homophobia. It's a tangled issue, but we believe that banning reggae artists from performing and organising a "witch-hunt" against reggae is not an effective means of combating homophobia. We have ten founding principles which you can read on our site (http://www.dfah.org) or on other posts on Barbelith, and a petition you can sign if you agree with our position.

Thanks,

paul.meme / 2stepfan
 
  
Add Your Reply