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No star here laces
09:15 / 27.08.04
I have a maid.

She does my laundry, cleans my house, tidies up after me and empties the cat's litter box.

In return she lives in my house for free and I give her money. She also does maid work for other people.

She's from the Philippines, and by doing this earns (relatively) huge sums of money which are sent home to her extended family.

We are genuinely friends, and she feels more like a flatmate who does all the tidying than an employee.

My question is: what do you all feel are the rights and wrongs of having domestic servants?

Is there something wrong about paying somebody to do all the menial shit you can't be bothered to do yourself? Or is it just another job, like any other in which services are rendered for cash?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:06 / 27.08.04
On the plus side:

Paying some-one to do it is a lot better than having them be your slave.

I find the idea of a friendly, mutualy respectful relationship between the house owner and the servant palatable.

If the maid has career opportunities beyond being a maid, that's good too.
 
 
w1rebaby
00:27 / 28.08.04
It is a service, but being a "domestic servant" is a different deal from simply hiring someone to do something. There's the constant reminder that you are dependent on someone else not only for your wage, but for everything else too. I feel resentful at a basic level of my current visa status (which says that I have to keep the same job otherwise I get booted out of the country), and I'm relatively wealthy, and capable of leaving if I want to and going back to the UK to a similar lifestyle.

I don't think there's anything wrong with paying someone to do stuff, whether it's because you can't be bothered or you need them to. I pay people to cook things for me and serve them to me because I can't be bothered cooking them at home. I don't see that that's a problem.

However, I don't know if it's possible to eliminate a basic social power imbalance when you are both employer and landlord and the two are tied together. Personally I would feel more comfortable divorcing the two, paying a nominal wage that includes rent and then deducting the rent automatically, if you see what I mean. I can't help feeling that whatever the situation, you are not just flatmates; with most flatmates, if you piss them off you won't automatically have to leave the flat. Divorcing the two would go some way to eliminating that, though it would still be there.

If you look at it as "this person is a friend who is doing independent work, needs a place to stay, and is paying me back by doing some odd cleaning round the house", I could see that working. It's different from the usual "domestic servant" setup, the possibility exists that they could pay you back some other way, or live somewhere else. How flexible her options are as to moving out makes a different here. But what I tend to think is how much does your will influence this other person's life? How much power does your whim carry? If you woke up one morning and thought "you know, this place doesn't really need cleaning", how much difference would that make to her?
 
 
Benny the Ball
18:34 / 28.08.04
My housemate is going through a conflicted time at the moment, he has found himself earning a lot of money and living in a nice house, and we decided to get a cleaner, yet has socialist ethical issues about this, about paying somebody to be in subservice to you. However, it's the basis of our society, to pay someone willing to provide a service to you to do that service. I think that the key is 'willing'. However our cleaner comes and goes once a week.
 
 
Linus Dunce
19:59 / 28.08.04
No one, in present-day western society at least, is "in service" solely by taking a domestic job that provides accommodation. Domestic work is work like any other, and there are many similar jobs, e.g. pub manager and school caretaker, that come with accommodation.

Aren't we getting a bit Hyacinth Bucket here? Paying someone to do your chores full-time or part-time does not make them your subject. We have a cleaner for our house, and a member of my family "does" for people back home. I think they would both feel patronised by your perceived ethical dilemmas, if not outraged by the arrogance of your belief in exactly what your precious coin buys from them.

Also, a minor point, but if you have to work, you are not wealthy.
 
 
No star here laces
21:00 / 28.08.04
Predicate: I am drunk.

Linus, fuck you dude. I'm not feeling guilty. I'm curious what people think. If I had a fucking issue with having a maid, i wouldn't have one, fuckwad.
 
 
Linus Dunce
21:06 / 28.08.04
jeffe -- I was really only taking issue with a couple of the responses to your post. I can only say that I am sorry that I did not make that clear.

Take it from me, it's a bad idea to post when drunk.
 
 
Linus Dunce
21:07 / 28.08.04
And "fuckwad" is such an unappealing word, don't you think?
 
 
Benny the Ball
21:21 / 28.08.04
Linus, you do come on a bit strong though. To provide service and to be in service are two very different things. Also, the individuals coin is no more or less precious than anothers, therefore if someone is providing a service as a cleaner and you chose not to use them, but somebody else does it is neither more ethical of you to not hire that person because of some servitude issue, nor less ethical because you are not "spreading the wealth" to use a clumsy phrase. The ethical issue lies with the individual.
 
 
Benny the Ball
21:23 / 28.08.04
And to be slightly pedantic, the Queen has to work, do you consider her not to be wealthy?

It's a relative issue.
 
 
Linus Dunce
21:39 / 28.08.04
Benny, you wrote paying somebody to be in subservice, not "paying someone for a service."

The Queen works, yes, rubberstamping legislation, attending social events, travelling between her various houses and managing her own estates. Life is quite the chore for her, I'm sure ...
 
 
Benny the Ball
21:51 / 28.08.04
I said that my housemate has ethical issues about paying somebody to be in subservice, that is his ethical view on it, that is why it's an issue to him, because he sees this as a job that is beneth him, and worries that he is exploiting somebody into being in subservice.

I see it as a service provided which we pay for.

Also, the queen thing, it's still work, yes is sounds easy and all, but as I said I was being pedantic.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:40 / 28.08.04
Is there something wrong about paying somebody to do all the menial shit you can't be bothered to do yourself? Or is it just another job, like any other in which services are rendered for cash?

I've been trying to work out what has been making me nervous about this statement, and it suddenly struck me - it half-suggests that any transaction in which services are rendered for cash is by definition uncontentious. This strikes me as very wrong indeed.

As for the employing of domestic servants... well, the term itself is a bit complex. Is an au pair a domestic servant? I presume we mean somebody who is employed to clean, cook etc and is rewarded both by accommodation and cash. That seems to me in itself a negotiation between two people to create a set of working conditions - the accommodation could be seen as a non-financial reward, like a company car or subsidised gym membership, right? After all, presumably the living arrangements do not mean the JdJ either would or could wake her up at 2 in the morning saying that he had thrown up on the carpet and she should clean it up *right now*. She shares his home because it is a benefit he has offered, implicitly in lieu of cash, which she has chosen to take as part of the package. So far so good.

However. When Linus says:

No one, in present-day western society at least, is "in service" solely by taking a domestic job that provides accommodation.

He misses the point that, for starters, we are not talking about present-day western society. JdJ and his maid are both foreign workers in a country to which neither is native. This has some implications - most obviously, comparisons of standard of living kick in. JdJ has the cash to pay his maid, who can send this money to a place where its buying power is massively increased. If there is an injustice here, maybe it is an injustice in terms of global wealth...

Speaking personally, I think I would find it very difficult to reconcile the statement "this person is genuinely my friend" and "I pay this person to empty my cat's litter tray". On the other hand, a lot depends there on whether one can be friends with an employee, or whether one has to maintain a degree of professional distance in general. That professional distance may be harder to maintain if you are living with somebody, but conversely it may be more important *to* maintain in such a position - I can't think of anything more awful (not suggesting that this is the case here) than having both a paid domestic serrvant and an unpaid provider of friendship and ethical decomplexifying services...
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
13:09 / 31.08.04
It seems as if JdJ has struck a balance, which is an overriding factor here and one that cannot be overlooked. Now regardless of either parties agenda for meeting that there is a cycle of transactions that it seems could continue ad infinitum under the proviso that each parties agenda is fulfilled.

External to that form of relationship there are a series of rules that are either explicit, implicit or tacit that govern a employer/domestic servant relationship. Firstly I think we have to take a look at the role of domestic servant in the current employment culture. I cannot comment on the state of JdJ's nation of residence but will refer to the westernised world as relevant.

We live in a culture of hyperspecialisation in the workplace. Continually we see job specifications reduced whilst job loads are increased. This is then married to a program of rotation and cross-training. We are then required to take onboard a far greater number of considerations in our workplace as the implications of our actions expand and therefore we ultimately work more. In a culture where we are fostered to have less ability and more responsibility and harder work it is of little suprise to me that we are again increasingly inclined to employ domestic assistance. It is ultimately a mentality that is a product of a system that easily considers outsourcing as a first viable means of operations. This is after all what domestic service amounts to. We place a cost, not nessecarily monetary, on a task and decide whether we would prefer to incur that cost to ourselves or have someone else incur it at an expense we consider far more acceptable.

In a culture where we pay people to carry out a myriad of domestic duties for us then adding cleaning and so on to the list is hardly creating a social imbalance. After all, I am paid to carry out a task that assists in civil management that benefits those who cook my ready meals. In essence the majority of us serve others and if we all could be bothered to do what we pay others to do for us then we would likely be less productive, creating different employment opportunities and paying more tax. In short there is a form of existing balance that centres around workload. In a capitalistic sense you are rightly contributing to the continuation of flow of funds.

The social imbalance/power struggle issue come in when human perceptions are introduced and the social imbalance/power struggle is more about your own perceptions and prejudices than the actual situation.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:09 / 31.08.04
As has been said, there is a danger that, in having a domestic servant, you have too much power over someone and the possibility exists of abuse. You would need to be careful here, but you can probably set up appropriate boundaries.

Given your comments above, JdeJ, this probably isn't appropriate, but there are people who would refuse to hire a maid on point of principle. The principle being that you are exploiting your wealth, which is founded on arguably racist and certainly unjust principles, to hire another person as a servant. Unlike others above, I think there is a point worth considering here - there are ethical concerns with regards to the distribution and use of wealth. Having said that, it isn't that compelling a point. Or at least, not enough to stop you hiring a maid since most of us take full advantage of our undeserved privilege. The difference with having a servant is, largely, that this hierarchy becomes much more explicit.
 
 
No star here laces
00:43 / 01.09.04
I think I largely agree with that last post, and with Haus' post.

I think, no doubt, that any ethical problems arising from domestic service arise from the principle that a person, any person can be paid in money for their time and that during that period of time they are being paid for they are not free to act in the way they see fit.

Because I am in a position to get compensated well for my time, and because I give away a lot of my time to other people it makes financial and practical sense for me to free up other bits of my time by having a maid.

The fact that she is an experienced and intelligent person and I never actually have to tell her to do anything makes the whole thing much easier to bear for me, because it avoids my having to confront the fact that I own her for several hours a week. She just gets on with it all.

So it seems we've established that although some jobs seem more lowly/exploited than others, in principle all jobs are equally exploitative, at least in the sense that the system of exchanging money for time creates an unpleasant power imbalance.

A question then - is it inherently better to only ever exchange money for goods rather than for time?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:57 / 01.09.04
I'm not sure that distinction works. First because you are paying for the time people have spent creating those goods as well as the raw materials. Second because, although in principle all jobs in which work is exchanged for cash are equally exploitative, in fact this is not the case. For example, the laws protectin your employment are probably a lot more well-defined than the laws protecting hers, and you have a lot more recourse if you feel you are being exploited unfairly - what redress would your maid be able to obtain if you deciced to chuck her out? How far would the money you give her go if it were asked to support a legal case against you rather than a family in the Philipines?

Another and interlinked question is probably about the relationship of corporate and private capital. Your job pays you for your time (and knowledge, and expertise etc), because at some point Mr. X could no longer manage every aspect of his business, so hired other people, who hired other people, who hired other people, who ultimately hired you. You have skills either that the other people do not have, that the other people do not have the time to address to every requirement, or that the other people can spend more time doing things that will earn the business more money than your skills do. It's a pretty structured system.

Which is where focus comes in. If you are positing a straight system whereby the hour you would spend cleaning instead becomes an hour where you earn 50p (to use the primary school maths book rules) and your cleaner/maid takes 5p, then it makes financial sense for you to do that. Likewise, if you are working late, it may make more sense to order a pizza than to go home, prepare food and eat it. In both cases, a straight choice is being made between doing something and paying somebody else to do it for you while you do something more lucrative. The next step might be to pay somebody to do something for you while you do something more fun - say, you watch telly or go clubbing while your cleaner/maid canges the cat litter tray. In an abstract sense, this is probably a bit like the fact that you like running water, but you don't want the hassle of running a mill, so you pay a service provider to pipe water to your home. In a more concrete sense, however, you are still paying another person who lives in your flat to take over the care of your flat because you can afford to and they can't afford not to.

On one level, that'ws just capitalism. On another, however, I'd suggest that arguing that all relationship are not only in principle but in practice equally exploitative may be somewhat exculpatory.
 
  
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