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What Makes a Terrorist?

 
  

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the cat's iao
04:17 / 20.08.04
The word 'terrorist' has more and more come into usage in our culture's media, and in the everyday language of people. We hear of acts of terrorism, we hear of a person or group of people being called terrorist/s. But I am curious as to how this label gets applied to an act, person, or people?

I mean, is it a culturally relative thing? Certainly, those being attacked in "unconventional" ways (and here the meaning of this word is perhaps up for grabs as well--what is it for acts of violence to be considered "conventional" warfare?) will levy this term against the aggressors, but equally, those deemed terrorists will often call those they are attacking terrorists.

Is this label ever aptly applied, and if so, are there criteria for assuring a reasonable application and usage?
 
 
Grey Area
08:45 / 20.08.04
Isn't this the old "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" argument?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:21 / 20.08.04
Pretty much. There are various attempts to describe the tactics of those identified as "terrorists" - the current favourite is "asymmetric warfare" - that is, warfare in which the two sides have vastly different resources and organisations. It is possible to pursue asymmeric warfare without performing what are generally identified as "acts of terror", however it is pretty darn difficult - the ANC, for example, I believe resolved in council at one point that civilian casualties woudl have to be acccepted in the service of the greater good.

So, what makes one man's terrorist another man's freedom fighter? Arguably politics. There may be a standard by which either one or the other could be identified as using terror or performing acts of terror, however. For a start, how about a couple of handy guidelines:

1) The act has to be performed in the pursuit of a military or political aim.
2) The act has to be performed against a group of people not directly involved in the pursuance of that military or political aim. So, attacking soldiers is not a terrorist act. Attacking a soldier's wife might be.
3) The act is targeted towards civilian or unprotected targets - there's some question about how politicians fit into this.
4) The act is intended to make people feel vulnerable and limit their freedom of movement or association - bombs in shopping centres, kidnapping journalists - the idea is to make people feel that they could be the next victim.

How's that for a start? Even then, mind, a lot depends on whether you feel that using terror makes you a terrorist, and indeed if so whether only combatants in asymmetric warfare, and specifically only the combatants on a particular side of asymmetric warfare, can be terrorists.
 
 
the cat's iao
13:06 / 20.08.04
Isn't this the old "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" argument?

Um, no. Well, it might be, if someone wants to argue that. I've simply asked a few questions, but not made any argument that I am aware of.
 
 
w1rebaby
13:10 / 20.08.04
1) The act has to be performed in the pursuit of a military or political aim.

I thought that this was the case from a UK perspective, but the US popular definition of "terrorism" (and not just recently) seems to include "terrorism as extortion". Legally speaking it can include all sorts of things but I think we can exclude a lot of that as it hasn't really filtered through to the popular imagination.

I don't think that it's possible to reach a coherent definition of "terrorism" that conforms to what people would actually define as "terrorism", because I don't think it is a coherent concept. Well, perhaps it is but not in the way that we usually like to define these terms. It's also inconsistent across political and geographic boundaries. As far as I can see what people consider "terrorism" depends on what they have seen called "terrorism" in the media, both news and entertainment. In the West this is likely to mostly mean non-governmental religious Muslim militants at the moment; in the UK it will have a big chunk of the IRA, in Spain a big chunk of Eta etc. There are far fewer commonly-known non-Muslim groups in the US - I have repeatedly heard claims along the lines of "Muslims do all the terrorism". Some people consider property damage to be terrorism, some don't.

People do often think that they have an underlying basis for their definition of one group as terrorist and another not, but there are almost always counterexamples. The common definition of "deliberately killing innocent civilians to cause terror" doesn't really hold up completely. If a group accidentally causes death (say they blow up a building with warnings but there were people still inside) are they still terrorists? If so, why aren't various governments terrorists? Are Israeli settlers really innocent civilians, or are they paramilitaries? And so on.

I'm going to pick a few real common factors that I see here:

1. They have to be doing it to cause mass terror, Haus' point 4 there. Serial killers who deliberately kill innocent people but conceal it are not terrorists.

2. Despite the term "state terrorism" becoming more popular recently, it's not one that has been generally picked up (it's politically problematic as it refers to many regimes friendly to Western governments, so doesn't get in the media much). Governments are oppressive. Non-governmental groups are terrorists.

Apart from that I think the best way to see what a group is going to consider "terrorist" is to watch their TV, see who is called a terrorist there and work backwards from that.
 
 
ChasFile
13:11 / 20.08.04
The Ak-74 rifle is a material proxy for this cultural clash. The weapon, which is easily recognizable with its wooden butt and distinctive bannana clip, is portrayed/percieved in the West as the weapon of the undisciplined guerrilla soldier and the terrorist. It is the weapon of the criminal combatant, and is to warfare as the shiv is to prison fights - a low-quality weapon used only by the most desperate and most vicious of people.

In the former soviet bloc, where the weapon was the standard military-issue rifle, the Ak has no such connotations. In the mideast, however, the weapon is the tool of the righteous, and is seen almost as a holy implement. Through it, the blood of the infidels is shed, and the sanctity of Muslim lands and people are protected. It is to the Arab world what the M1 Garand is to the United States: the rifle of freedom.

There have been several interesting anthropologically papers about these lines, though I can't find any right now. My point is that its not just about politics; culture, religion, aesthetics, ideology, and many other factors have alot to do with this as well.

Since the Vietnam war it has been impossible to tell freind from foe, and terrorist from civilian. So how do you figure out who is a Good Guy and who is a Bad Guy if you are infantryman or a flunkie armchair strategist? Politics is too confusing, culture is too foreign, religion is too discriminatory, ideology is too obtuse. SO here's my answer (speaking, as I do, for the great unwashed American multitude): A terrorist is anyone who carries an Ak-74.

[P.S. Yes, it is Ak-74, not Ak-47. The number designates their model year; the 47 is an antique by now.
 
 
w1rebaby
13:20 / 20.08.04
...or an RPG, fast becoming the AK of the 2000s.
 
 
gummi
02:40 / 22.08.04
It's quite feasible for a gargantuan State-like apparatus to invoke Terror through a massive use of force.

Using 'asymmetric warfare' as a classification is a pretty good idea, especially if one were to look at the definition from this reverse angle, as well.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
06:58 / 02.09.04
How about the possibility that Terrorist acts are those committed for their symbolic and psychological value, rather than their specific tactical effect? Terror is the deployment of fear in the service of a political aim; it reaches past (or around) the battlefield to attack the (grassroots?) political will and the logistical efforts of the enemy. Terror attacks do are not physical operations to gain and hold an advantage; they are pieces of theatre intended primarily to cause fear and horror, rather than the classic military goal of securing land. Thus no one in Hamas imagines that a suicide bomb will enable them to claim the territory of the blast radius, but rather than they will transform their enemy's territory into the battlefield. Similarly, the attack on the Twin Towers was not conducted for the infrastructural damage it did to New York or to Wall Street, but rather for the stunning shock which that loss of life in that way inflicted not just on the U.S., but on the world.
 
 
sleazenation
08:36 / 02.09.04
interesting - How does this map on to conflicts such as the \Invasions in Iraq and and Afghanistan where the US has failed to secure the country and has not admitted to any territorial ambitions.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:06 / 02.09.04
Well, Afghanistan had a military goal - the disruption of Al Qaeda's training bases and power structure and the installation of a sympathetic government in the country. Obviously, it also had a symbolic component, and there was an element of "don't mess with us or we'll come in with fire and sword" about it, but I'm not sure it was primarily that. That the U.S. hasn't secured Afghanistan probably has a lot to do with the fact that it's almost a fantasy state: it has no political coherence and little in the way of central control in the first place. You can't secure it without flooding it with troops, and as you say, the U.S. doesn't want to own Afghanistan.

Iraq is even muddier. I honestly believe it was a resource war, so my perception is that it was about securing access to oil from Iraq in anticipation of instability in Saudi Arabia and massive increase in demand for oil from China and the rest of the developing world. Hussein was also demanding payment for oil in Euros rather than dollars, and the use of dollars in oil transactions is one of the things propping up U.S. economic control - a subtle but dangerous attack. (It's ironic that the consequence of the war has been to make all of us much more dependent on Saudi oil for at least the next few years, but that's another story.)

Some of the attacks on Hussein and his family might count as terror attacks, in that they were intended to have symbolic value, but at the same time, this was a declared war, and they held military rank. I dislike war in general, and it seems to me that the distinction between battlefield weapons intended to do massive damage and terrify troops, and terror weapons, is slight at best. I'm probably not the best person to try to argue around the rough edges of a massively unbalanced military encounter in an area inhabited by civilians.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:07 / 07.09.04
I dislike war in general, and it seems to me that the distinction between battlefield weapons intended to do massive damage and terrify troops, and terror weapons, is slight at best

Way-ull... I imagine that the two can be interchanged to an extent. For example, the terrorists in Beslan employed both conventional weapons - firearms, grenade launchers and mines - and weapons generally identified as "weapons of terror", that is explosives strapped to the body and strung above civilians - but in many cases the application was the only distinction in the ordnance - a rifle used against a soldier by a soldier is a conventional weapon, but used against a shopping mall of civilians might be seen as a weapon of terror.

More generally, I think to an extent you have answered your own question:

intended to do massive damage and terrify troops

Troops are paid to be on the receiving end of weapons, which like all weapons are intended to do the maximum ossible useful damage with the technology available. So, an artillery barrage on an armoured column may be terrifying, but it is not according-to-Hoyle terrorism. Of course, this makes little difference to the non-combatants who get hit by the stray shells.

One possible distinction is between weapons with expensive delivery systems, like guidance systems or highly-trained pilots, which are generally only used when they are moving towards the achievement of both tactical and strategic objectives (because they are expensive and potentially difficult to replace) and weapons with inexpensive delivery systems (like people or subcompacts), which can therefore be used for operations without immediate tactical advantage or measurable strategic benefit, towards an aim like demoralising populations or killing enemy combatants without ambitions to expand into territory.
 
 
Linus Dunce
21:32 / 07.09.04
they are pieces of theatre intended primarily to cause fear and horror, rather than the classic military goal of securing land.

Thus no one in Hamas imagines that a suicide bomb will enable them to claim the territory of the blast radius, but rather than they will transform their enemy's territory into the battlefield.

I think both of the above interpret terrorist action from an almost emotional point of view. Terrorists have no less foresight than anyone else. They know there will be a backlash or a crackdown following their actions. In fact, this is what they want. It polarises people. Gets them on side. This is what Northern Ireland terrorism is all about. It is what Palestinian terrorism is all about. Make an unholy mess and the troops will come in, hard. Then all your people are on your side. You may even gain a de facto position of authority. So, to say there is no territorial aspect to terrorism is to miss something important I think.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:43 / 09.09.04
It's often said that Freedom Fighters attack millitary targets, whereas Terrorists attack anything.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:07 / 12.09.04
How about the possibility that Terrorist acts are those committed for their symbolic and psychological value, rather than their specific tactical effect? Terror is the deployment of fear in the service of a political aim; it reaches past (or around) the battlefield to attack the (grassroots?) political will and the logistical efforts of the enemy.

Others have commented on this, but I thought I'd return to it after reading the indispensible Juan Cole reflect on September 11th and the war against terrorism. Some of this analysis supports Mink's analysis, namely,

Bin Laden hoped the US would timidly withdraw from the Middle East.

But I can't help thinking that the distinction between military and civilian targets, as the last poster puts it, is far from clear. Isn't the WTC a natural military target if you want to undermine the economy of an imperialist power? Or, to put it the other way, isn't the bombing of Serbia's state TV station by us an act of terrorism? There are plenty more examples of course.

I think my point is that, however despicable the methods, we shouldn't dismiss the tactical aims of al-Qaeda. As Juan Cole continues,

But [Bin Laden] appears to have been aware that an aggressive US response to 9/11 was entirely possible. In that case, he had a Plan B: al-Qaeda hoped to draw the US into a debilitating guerrilla war in Afghanistan and do to the US military what they had earlier done to the Soviets. Al-Zawahiri's recent message shows that he still has faith in that strategy.

We have goals and so do they. Where we are determined, they are ruthless. Its a well rehearsed argument that still seems fairly convincing to me.

But perhaps we are focusing too much on al-Qaeda. It might be interesting to think about another example of a terrorist group. What about ETA? In particular, is their evolution from a group of freedom fighters who helped bring down Franco and Spanish fascism to a terrorist group explained solely in terms of the advent of Spanish democracy and the refusal of ETA to change?
 
 
w1rebaby
20:33 / 12.09.04
I think if we're going to try to construct a useful definition of "terrorism" (rather than reconstruct something from the media and propaganda, which I don't think is ever going to give us anything sensible) we should (a) concentrate on "terrorist acts" rather than "terrorists" and (b) deal with the fact that an act can have both "military" and "terrorist" elements.

Here's a definition for the two I'm proposing:

military - an action designed to physically prevent something from occurring by the exercise of force. If you want to stop supplies getting to troops and you blow up bridges to prevent lorries getting across it, that's military. You don't care what people think about it, you're simply preventing them from doing it.

terrorist - an action designed to prevent something from occurring by intimidating people into not participating, or opposing it. If you kidnap and execute lorry drivers on TV in the hope that nobody else will drive the supply lorries, that's terrorist. You're not trying to kill drivers to prevent them from driving.

Of course, traditional "military" actions usually have a terroristic component too, damaging the enemy's morale. This is particularly true of actions taken in areas occupied by civilians.

So looking at a few examples in rather sketchy detail:

9/11 - almost entirely terrorist, since the WTC and the workers therein weren't particularly significant to the maintenance of US influence in the Middle East. Damage to the economy was mostly from fear and uncertainty afterwards, which is terrorism.

Bombing Serbian TV stations - some military, to prevent the Milosevic government from broadcasting to the public, and some terrorist, to intimidate journalists and demonstrate the power of the US military.

Brighton hotel bombing - some military, attempt to kill government ministers thus disrupting UK actions in NI, some terrorist, attempt to intimidate potential replacements and shock public into demanding solutions.

Attacking Fallujah - some military, killing fighters opposed to the new regime, some terrorist, scaring civilians into rejecting those fighters through casualties and destruction.

It's hard to think of something contemporary that's almost all military because, if it wasn't meant to intimidate anyone, we wouldn't hear about it. However, something like a special forces strike on an al Qaeda base in Afghanistan might count.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:20 / 12.09.04
9/11 - almost entirely terrorist, since the WTC and the workers therein weren't particularly significant to the maintenance of US influence in the Middle East.

But one of the planes hit the Pentagon - which would be military, yes?
 
 
Linus Dunce
22:31 / 12.09.04
I think if we're going to try to construct a useful definition of "terrorism" ... we should (a) concentrate on "terrorist acts" rather than "terrorists" and (b) deal with the fact that an act can have both "military" and "terrorist" elements.

I disagree; rather than producing a coherent definition this will merely generate multiple tenuous and convoluted descriptions based largely on a subjective, almost metaphysical understanding of the meaning of the word "terrorism." The problem with defining 9/11 as a non-military action illustrated straight away the lengths one will need to go to arrive at a wordy definition that leaving us roughly where we started.

As an alternative, can we not say that terrorism is carried out by a militia that has neither constitutional nor other formal binding to a nation state? This would render the phrase "state terrorism" oxymoronic however, as it is rarely used in anything other than histrionics, would this be a great loss?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
06:35 / 13.09.04
Isn't the WTC a natural military target if you want to undermine the economy of an imperialist power?

Ahhh. No. It's a natural target, but by the twisted logic of these things, it's a civilian one. Yes, there's clearly blurring here. Yes, the rules are defined by those in power. Still.

Or, to put it the other way, isn't the bombing of Serbia's state TV station by us an act of terrorism?

It may have been - I don't remember the circumstances.

Fridge, I think it's a good point that a group can perform both terroristic and conventionally military actions. I'm not persuaded by the 'military/terror' distinction you make, but I think we're broadly in agreement on a definition of terror - it just seems to me that you're a little more forgiving about what might be a military target than I am.

Linus, I'm sorry, but you're going to have to back up that 'state terror' quip, or I shall become peevish. "Histrionics"? States are very, very good at terror. I can provide some examples without difficulty. Can you?
 
 
Linus Dunce
16:50 / 13.09.04
Mink -- Don't threaten me with your peeve, I really don't care for it my friend.

I wrote "state terrorism," not "state terror." And terrorism is what we're trying to define here, so if, as you say, you can pull multiple examples from out of somewhere before the fact, go ahead.

Are you talking about "state-funded terrorism," perhaps? That would be something else again.
 
 
w1rebaby
22:47 / 13.09.04
Haus: But one of the planes hit the Pentagon - which would be military, yes?

Yeah, I was forgetting about that. The Pentagon strike would be more military. Though given the size and multiple redundancy of the US war machine it's a matter of argument as to how effective that would be.

CM: Just to clarify, I'm not really talking about military/terrorist "targets" here, because something could easily be both. If a fighter shoots a US soldier in Iraq that's a military action. If a fighter shoots a US soldier, mutilates the body and strings it up for his friends to see, that's got an additional terrorist element.

Linus Dunce:

I disagree; rather than producing a coherent definition this will merely generate multiple tenuous and convoluted descriptions based largely on a subjective, almost metaphysical understanding of the meaning of the word "terrorism."

I don't see that at all. I've put forward what I consider to be a pretty objective definition of what military and terroristic components of an action might be; I'm sure it has flaws but being "almost metaphysical" isn't one of them. Perhaps you could explain what you mean further?

The problem with defining 9/11 as a non-military action illustrated straight away the lengths one will need to go to arrive at a wordy definition that leaving us roughly where we started.

Was that paragraph "lengths"? Or are you talking about someone else here?

As an alternative, can we not say that terrorism is carried out by a militia that has neither constitutional nor other formal binding to a nation state?

No, I don't think we can. We have this word "terrorism". It is routinely both claimed and believed that there it can be used to describe actions, irrespective of who is carrying them out, and engaging in terrorism makes you a terrorist. While the FBI says that

"Terrorism is the unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives."

I think that if you asked most people whether passing a law made something not terroristic, they'd say no. If you ask people who condemn "terrorism" to defend actions of their respective governments which might appear to be terrorism, they don't say "it's not terrorism because we're a state". They talk in terms of it being necessary for a greater good, or an accident so not terrorism, or the targets being terrorists themselves which turns the action into a military one. The expectation is that the action defines what is terrorism rather than the actor. It would be simply a tautology to say "America is not a terrorist nation" if you took the nation-state definition.

The US military raided and destroyed villages in the Vietnam War. The CIA also covertly hired non-US militias to do the same thing, no constitutional or formal binding. What's the difference? I think a definition that calls one terrorism and the other not is ridiculous; the aims were the same, the actions were the same, the people ordering them were the same, just the people carrying them out were born in different places and paid different amounts of money.
 
 
w1rebaby
22:55 / 13.09.04
I was thinking about the further question, "what's wrong with terrorism?" today. I had a couple of theories. I think that might be better as a new thread though.
 
 
the cat's iao
03:40 / 14.09.04
Fridge, while I have been following your thoughts with some degree of sympathy (esp. wrt your emphasis on the need to be aware of the propaganda that is generated in informing the public opinion), I wanted to comment on:

If a fighter shoots a US soldier, mutilates the body and strings it up for his friends to see, that's got an additional terrorist element.

Does it really though? If it’s for the fighter’s friends to see, then isn’t it more a way to boost morale? I mean, it does seem rather horrid, but perhaps no more or less horrid then flying over people and dropping thousands of tons of TNT on them without so much a seeing their faces.

I guess what I am driving at here would be that the images of a mutilated body will be interpreted as “terrorism” if seen by certain groups of people with certain ideas and preconceptions. To the fighter’s allies such an action is likely not seen as terrorism—perhaps it might even be seen as “heroic”—but to the enemy of the fighter it will likely be seen as a terrorist act.

So where is the terrorist element, then? It seems to me, in this case, to be tied in with the interpretation of the beholder.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
06:16 / 14.09.04
Okay, Linus, let's go. Please explain your view of the difference between terrorism funded by a state and state terrorism. As for examples, we could begin with Sudan, Libya, Leninist or Stalinist Russia, or even Palestine. Or we could take a look at Nicaragua.

And you could present some examples of those 'histrionics' you were talking about.
 
 
w1rebaby
15:10 / 14.09.04
To clarify, I'm talking about showing the soldier's body to the soldier's friends.
 
 
Linus Dunce
20:33 / 14.09.04
And you could present some examples of those 'histrionics' you were talking about.

Well, you seem to be doing that all by yourself.

And you are asking me to prove the existence -- or at least make a comparitive study -- of something that I have suggested doesn't exist. I am therefore not entirely convinced you are entirely qualified to offer me out.

I'm sorry, I'll not take the bait.
 
 
Linus Dunce
21:29 / 14.09.04
I think that if you asked most people whether passing a law made something not terroristic, they'd say no.

And if you asked most people what an appropriate treatment for fainting was, they'd say sticking the victim's head between their knees. If you're trying to say that the definition of terrorism should be one of popular consensus then we should just quit right now because terrorists are patently Muslims and the Irish.

And yet ... the FBI definition of terrorism is damned because "It is routinely both claimed and believed."

Also, "terrorism" is an apparently invalid descriptor eschewed by all right-thinking folks yet the concept of "state terrorism" is ... OK?

Fed up of chomping on this.
 
 
w1rebaby
22:21 / 14.09.04
You are of course free to construct whatever definition of "terrorist"/"non-terrorist" you like, non-state vs state, blonde vs brunette, ninja vs pirate, whatever, damn everybody else, but if we are trying to see whether there are useful, coherent concepts behind the word it's generally handy to consider how people actually use it and work from there.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
06:42 / 15.09.04
Linus, I'm asking you to back up your comments with some evidence. It's not an unusual request in the context of a serious discussion. You wrote:

As an alternative, can we not say that terrorism is carried out by a militia that has neither constitutional nor other formal binding to a nation state?

We could, but it's a) vague and b) not what the word means. You're making 'terrorism' into something equivalent to 'unlawful combat'. Yes, it is currently being used by some in this way, but that's a piece of political ass-covering and not the meaning of the word. Lousy definitions lead to sloppy thinking, and I'd rather avoid sloppy thinking on one of the major issues of the world.

This would render the phrase "state terrorism" oxymoronic however, as it is rarely used in anything other than histrionics, would this be a great loss?

And this is what I'd like you to back up. Show me some 'histrionics'. Let's discuss whether they're really as ludicrous as you seem to think. I can point to any number of examples where states have engaged in terrorism - in fact, I just did. I can see a possible distinction between 'state-funded terror' and 'state terrorism' in cases where states simply supply terror groups who share their enemy (Libya and the IRA, for example), but it's murky. I don't accept much of a distinction in the case of Sudan, for example, and both the Israeli government at the moment and the Palestinian Authority are probably guilty of terror attacks.

Sorry if you're tired of chomping on this, but if you didn't want to have to argue your case (whatever it is) you probably shouldn't have got involved in the discussion.
 
 
Linus Dunce
14:28 / 18.09.04
You're making 'terrorism' into something equivalent to 'unlawful combat'. Yes, it is currently being used by some in this way, but that's a piece of political ass-covering and not the meaning of the word. Lousy definitions lead to sloppy thinking, and I'd rather avoid sloppy thinking on one of the major issues of the world.

No, I am not making it into any such thing. Other people have already done that for me. Forgive me, but I think you'll find that 'some' is in fact 'nearly all'. What you (and I *think* Fridge though I may be wrong there) seem to be doing is scrabbling for a definition of terrorism that will include what you call state terrorism, the existence of which is, for you, beyond question or analysis. So on the one hand, we have the word terrorism, which is merely "political ass-covering" and therefore must be properly defined before it can be used correctly, and on the other hand, "state terrorism," a concept completely above question or analysis and which only a fool would question.

As for my use of the word "histrionics," perhaps "polemics" might have been a better choice, but you seem to be confused by my use of the word. I am saying that the use of the phrase "state terrorism" is histrionic (or if you like polemic). I am not saying states don't do nasty things to people. I am talking about the words we use to describe the nastiness. For what it's worth, I think "terrorism" on its own is too emotive a term to be used very often outside a newspaper article.

Far be it from me to tell you what to do, but may I ask you to examine your own preconceptions before you demand satisfaction from others?
 
 
w1rebaby
17:48 / 18.09.04
No, the suggestion that I put forward had nothing to do with "state terror". It was an attempt to get round the constant unproductive "that wasn't terrorism the target was legitimate" / "no it wasn't" arguments by saying that actually, an act of violence could have both "military" and "terroristic" elements simultaneously.

Even if I was sticking to a bipolar definition I would still consider that states could commit terrorist acts and that acting for a state does not (necessarily) stop you from being a terrorist any more than being a soldier necessarily stops you from being a murderer. There are various reasons for this, some of which I have set out above; it seems to me to conform to the general use of the word by people from Amnesty to the US Government, that there are acts that can be defined as terrorism and a terrorist is someone who commits them, rather than the other way round. As far as I'm concerned the onus is on you to say why the action X committed by state agents isn't terrorism but is when committed by non-state agents. But that wasn't the point of what I was saying.
 
 
Linus Dunce
22:22 / 18.09.04
As far as I'm concerned the onus is on you to say why the action X committed by state agents isn't terrorism but is when committed by non-state agents.

OK, so I will say it like this:

Action X by state agents isn't terrorism.
Action X by non-state agents is terrorism.

Is that clear enough for you?
 
 
w1rebaby
22:41 / 18.09.04
And the "why" component? Why is the destruction of a village by US soldiers not terrorism, but the destruction of a village by militia under orders from the US government terrorism? Why are CIA campaigns of bombing etc designed to affect the outcome of elections in Nicaragua not terrorism, but (putative) campaigns of bombing by al Qaeda to affect Spanish elections terrorism?

Or are you simply denying the existence of "terrorism" as a thing that can be defined without reference to its actors? In which case I don't think we have anything further to say to each other - I consider such a definition inconsistent with the way the concept is used, even if the word is used in contexts that frequently don't conform to that context, and while you can say "well, everyone's wrong then" that doesn't help a lot.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:43 / 20.09.04
Forgive me, but I think you'll find that 'some' is in fact 'nearly all'.

No, and no.

What you (and I *think* Fridge though I may be wrong there) seem to be doing is scrabbling for a definition of terrorism that will include what you call state terrorism, the existence of which is, for you, beyond question or analysis.

I'm trying to offer a meaningful definition of an existing word, in use long before the War On Terror. You could call it reclaiming the language, except I don't think the language is so far gone. I'm not trying to shoehorn facts into the word or vice versa. If we accept your definition, we then have to come up with another word which is less rhetorical and more useful to describe what I'm talking about, which won't go away just because you try to change the dictionary definition to suit yourself.

Before you ask, the dictionary definition is as follows:

Terrorism

1. Government by intimidation as directed and carried out by the party in power in France during the Revolution of 1789-94; the system of the "Terror".

2. A policy intended to strike with terror those against whom it is adopted; the employment of methods of intimidation; the fact of terrorising or condition of being terrorised.


That's the OED, by the way, which I tend to consider as definitive, but in case you were in doubt, here's the relevant section of U.S. Law:

US CODE: TITLE 18 Section 2331

(1) the term ''international terrorism'' means activities that
-
(A) involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that
are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of
any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed
within the jurisdiction of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended -
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by
intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass
destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of
the United States, or transcend national boundaries in terms of
the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they
appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which
their perpetrators operate or seek asylum;
(2) the term ''national of the United States'' has the meaning
given such term in section 101(a)(22) of the Immigration and
Nationality Act;
(3) the term ''person'' means any individual or entity capable
of holding a legal or beneficial interest in property;
(4) the term ''act of war'' means any act occurring in the
course of -
(A) declared war;
(B) armed conflict, whether or not war has been declared,
between two or more nations; or
(C) armed conflict between military forces of any origin; and
(5) the term ''domestic terrorism'' means activities that -
(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation
of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
(B) appear to be intended -
(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(ii) to influence the policy of a government by
intimidation or coercion; or
(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass
destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of
the United States.


In other words, you may think the word is over-used and has no place outside a newspaper article, and I might even agree, save that it has considerable historical meaning and massive legal weight, and a fairly clear definition which isn't the one you ascribe to it, despite the hard work of the G.O.P.

As 'state terrorism' being something used only in histrionics - no, I don't think your proposed change of term is much better - I would draw your attention to the fact that the term is not oxymoronic but strictly tautological; and point out that you are proposing giving states a free pass to avoid the label, when in truth they are often guilty of acts which fall clearly under the defintions. Yes, the label is emotive. It is emotive because it describes an act of political bullying which is repugnant to anyone with a desire for democratic government. It should be emotive, because it describes a very bad thing. Describing terrorism in such a way that state by definition do something else - 'unlawful nation-state violence' or similar euphamisms - serves no one.

And I didn't demand satisfaction from you. I told you that if you didn't back up 'histionics' - which is a pretty offensive term when you're talking about people objecting to having their lives destroyed by a state - I'd get irritated with you.

Guess what? I'm irritated.

Just exactly what are these preconceptions of mine you seem to think need examining? And are you prepared to name your own?
 
 
Professor Silly
05:39 / 23.09.04
It seems the general conception of the word "terrorism" has evolved more readily in recent times.

Military/conquering forces have used what we consider "terrorist" act throughout recorded history...people at that time didn't call them that (usually because those that experienced it didn't live to tell).

Now we have mass media, and others can experience these acts in relative safety half a world away.

In recent decades some countries have tried to establish "rules" for warfare, which get tighter and tighter with time. Any group--be they a government or not--that breaks these rules are looked at as a world threat. Now the current definition of "terrorism" according to political-type people was listed directly above, so we needn't reinterate that.

As we see war unfolding (and we Americans don't really see much of it through our media...just stats--like some damn baseball game) some of us are disgusted by what we see. Further, we see a double standard--our military can seemingly get away with ignoring international law, which promotes further hatred and terrorism.

If we're encouraging terrorism, wouldn't that make us terrorists ourselves? As we continue expanding our conception of this word we should start to view most military actions as a form of terrorism--we're not there yet, but just give it time.

...I think some of us even want to keep expanding the definition to eventually include any act of violence, including rape and assault.
 
  

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