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Folk music (nowt as queer as)

 
  

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Ganesh
00:06 / 18.08.04
So, I've been thinking about the particular strain of parentally-indoctrinated music to which I'm attracted: Beach Boys, The Carpenters, The Mamas & the Papas and particularly Simon & Garfunkel. They could all be (very loosely) grouped under the rubric 'American folk'. Oddly enough, the British equivalent has never really grabbed my imagination. I guess it's easier to romanticise stuff notionally happening in another, bigger continent...

I'm interested in exploring other bands of the same ilk and era. Any recommendations?
 
 
Sunny
02:52 / 18.08.04
you ought to check out Joanna Newsom and Devendra Banhart, they so totally rule. I'm sure someone else can give better recommendations though.
 
 
TeN
03:33 / 18.08.04
oooooohhhhh Joanna Newsom is soooo my new favorite!
Listen here - it's a whole album of stuff like that... Joanna Newsom and Devandra Banhart are both on their, along with lots of other really great stuff... some of it recorded in people's bedrooms by unheard of artists. Really... I mean fucking REALLY great listening.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:10 / 18.08.04
American folk music... depends how far back you want to go... keep going down that road and eventually you'll hit the banjo led insanity of people like the Carter Family and Doc Boggs. Never has the banjo sounded so deranged. There's a boxset comp called "The Anthology of American Folk Music" which I think has been deleted but there were murmurings of a re-issue a few months back. This covers the whole span of American folk music from blues to bluegrass, cajun, gospel, and all sorts of weirdness. I used to have a tape of highlights from it which didn't leave my stereo for months.

If you like that sort of thing, you might want to listen to some Gillian Welch, who does contemporary stuff in that style. Quite good.

I'd say that liking American folk music but not British folk music, is no more unusual that liking, say, African folk music but not liking French folk music. Very different kettles produce very different fish.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:24 / 18.08.04
Again, I point you in the direction of The Incredible String Band, particularly The Hangman's Beautiful Daughter.

Or Shirley Collins, of whom David Tibet had this to say: "I was getting into a lot of British folk, things like The Incredible String Band's The Hangman's Beautiful Daughter and groups like Trees and COB, but as soon as I heard Shirley she was immediately goddess, I deified her straight away. She just sounded like somebody's heart singing without coming through their mouth. The sound is absolutely pure and there's no melodrama in it whatsoever... the category above Shirley is Jesus".
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:26 / 18.08.04
Sorry, missed the whole American point. Check 'em out anyway.
 
 
grant
19:57 / 18.08.04
How does Phil Ochs grab you, Ganesh?
He was sort of the intellectual firebrand of the whole 60s folk thing. I don't own any albums by him, but feel like I should, you know.
 
 
TeN
01:23 / 19.08.04
I point you in the direction of The Incredible String Band

oooh, yummy. another good one.
 
 
rizla mission
16:49 / 19.08.04
Luckily for you Ganesh, I've been reeaally into British folk music in the past month or so, and thus have annoyingly little to say about the American variety at present..
 
 
Loomis
18:59 / 19.08.04
Well I doubt I have much more of a musical spectrum than you Ganesh, but I have 2 little points to offer. On the British angle, what do you think of Cat Stevens? I am a big fan of his, and since I like all the American stuff you list, then you might like him too. And as far as the American thing goes, you could try extending you search into alt.country and proper country. I never thought I'd get into country music but after years of being into things like S & G, I'm slowly going in that direction, and some of it is very folky with just a bit of a country twang.

Stuff like Gram Parsons might appeal. And this may be Barbelith heresy but I adore Heartbreaker by Ryan Adams. Country twang but basically folk-rock, kind of like Springsteen in his more mellow moments, and some quiet gems.
 
 
Loomis
20:48 / 19.08.04
... Ryan Adams being a bit more modern, obviously. What about Bob Dylan? Where do you stand in regards to him, G?
 
 
TeN
23:11 / 19.08.04
"Woody Guthrie was the most important American folk music artist of the first half of the 20th century." - all music's words, not mine. He's got some good stuff, and the fact that he was a full fledged Communist, who used to write "this machine kills fascists" on his guitar just makes him that much cooler. (he wrote the now famous "This Land is Your Land," from which two verses have been removed from all subsequent versions: "Was a high wall there that tried to stop me / A sign was painted said: Private Property, / But on the back side it didn't say nothing -- / [God blessed America for me.]" and then later, "One bright sunny morning in the shadow of the steeple / By the Relief Office I saw my people -- / As they stood hungry, I stood there wondering if / [God blessed America for me.]")

For some good old fashion folk weirdness, you ought to try some John Fahey on for size. Very eccentric, very eclectic, very innovative, and strange, and beautiful, and unique.

And of course, who could forget Nick Drake.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
13:53 / 20.08.04
alt.country and proper country

I was going to endorse this as well, having spent quite a lot of yesterday listening to a compilation full of such music and loving it. John Wesley (sp?) Harding is probably the most obvious one to look out for, but out of the more modern stuff Mojo Nixon is good and highly entertaining, as is C. W McCall. I don't know how easy the latter is to find though, as the compilation I have is home-made and some of the songs appear to have been copied off the radio (a practice which, lest we forget, is killing music)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:28 / 20.08.04
For British folk, you can of course go little further than Maddy Pryor, probably more familiar to some of you guys as the Goblin Queen. From her early work with Steeleye Span ("Steeleye" to their true fans), to her work both as a solo vocalist and with June Tabor in the folk festival favourites, the Silly Sisters, her dulcet tones are like the angel Gabriel in a dress cleaning behind his fridge using the pants the Papal Legate died in. You know that faintly comforting feeling you get when you know that mummy and daddy are too drunk to argue anymore? That's Maddy Prior.

"Black Jack Davey" is particularly good.
 
 
Lea-side
14:49 / 20.08.04
yeah, Steeleye were great as were Fairport (try Unhalfbricking or Liege And Lief), but i reckon the fucking daddies of british folk are PENTANGLE! beautiful etherial vocals, kick-ass folk-jazz (but without being wankey) acoustic guitars, courtesy of Bert Jansch and John Renbourn and acoustic bass and snare. check out Basket Of Light. proper soundtrack to a pre-raphaelite painting, if you know what i mean.....
 
 
grant
16:52 / 20.08.04
Yes. Pentangle.
 
 
Ganesh
23:23 / 20.08.04
Hmm. My parents were well into 'Steeleye', but I think I'd need to listen to an album or two to know whether I'd absorbed more than their singles (all I can remember, off the top of my head, is 'All Around My Hat' and 'Daytrip To Bangor' - and the latter we modified in order to torment my youngest sister Stephanie: "on the way back we put Steph in a sack, and filled it with poisonous spiders, da da da da da da da da da da the day we went to Bangor").
 
 
rizla mission
09:03 / 21.08.04
I swear I was a whole 6 months or so ahead on the whole listening-to-folk-music trend.. I thought I was being really weird and eclectic an' stuff when I dug Pentangle's "Cruel Sister" out of my mum's records and started telling all my hardcore-loving friends they should check it out..

Now it's guitar-picking and flutes and wyrd woodland tales as far as the eye can see.. (well, slight exaggeration).

But anyway, HMV (surprisingly quick to jump on an emerging trend I suppose) currently have a big sale on folk stuff, so get on down there and load up on yr. Fairport Convention and Richard Thompson and Bert Jansch and Sandy Denny and Nick Drake and so on for £4.99 a piece.. it's all good and it'll help make up for not having a summer.

They also seem to have decided John Cale is 'folk' for some reason, meaning you can get all of his stuff cheap as well.

I've been messing about with a half-finished blog post / article about how and why I like British folk for a while now..
 
 
Jack Vincennes
10:31 / 21.08.04
The best Steeleye Span album to start with (ie, my favourite) is probably Folk Songs Of Old England -as the title says, really, it's all folk songs and they are entirely rock. And there's much Maddy Pryor as well.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:39 / 21.08.04
It was called The Day we Went to Bangor. It was not by Steeleye Span, it was by Fiddler's Dream. There is NO COMPARISON.

I am releasing toxins from my fingernails.
 
 
Not Here Still
13:32 / 21.08.04
Fiddler's Dram, dear boy.

Pete Seeger's interesting - not only for his folky stuff, but also beacuse of his political background...
 
 
Ganesh
22:05 / 21.08.04
Fiddler's Dram? My parents lied...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
07:19 / 22.08.04
Ohhh, but didn't we have a loverly time, the day we went to
Bangor ?

No.
 
 
Ganesh
12:01 / 22.08.04
I guess that's why it's a song and not reportage.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:55 / 22.08.04
Although apparently Rhyll town council attempted to persuade the band to create a similar song extolling the virtues of Rhyll. Horrible, desperate decade.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:02 / 23.08.04
I prefer Steeleye ('the Span'?) to Pentangle, tho' Pentangle's version of 'The Cuckoo' is jolly good (forget which album). Martin Carthy's solo stuff is also very good, very stripped down - just him and his guitar, I think - tends a bit to the doom and gloom disaster song type, but includes my favourite drinking song, 'Ye Mariners All'. Haus is on the money re: Maddy Pryor.

Favourite song - hard to say; at the moment perhaps 'Sovay': 'Sovay, Sovay, all on a day, she dressed herself in man's array; with a pair of pistols all by her side, to meet her true love away did ride...'

Also have a soft spot for Gorky's Zygotic Mynci, whose earlier stuff often seems to have (seems because a lot of it is in Welsh) similar rural bizarreness.
 
 
doctorbeck
11:55 / 24.08.04
>Beach Boys, The Carpenters, The Mamas & the Papas and >particularly Simon & Garfunkel

i feel some pedantic need to point out that none of this is folk music, more pop music with occassional folk stylings.

for my money fred neil & tim harding are good 60s folk and worth checking out, but got to agree that digging back into that appalachian dirt for the old-time folk (rather than 60s revival / pop) is where the paydirt is, and the carter family are the motherlode

i wonder if you could include johnny cash as american folk, or more to the point ask just what is folk music? the music of the people? something with it's roots in everyday life? twee revivalism based on lunatic versions of olde englande with a whiff of yearning for the good old days of a different whiter nation? grime / hip-hop?

saying all that ganesh have got to agree that the beach boys are totally brilliant at times and for my oney john martin is the daddy of uk-folk, tho roy harper would have been where he not such a dick-head.

a
 
 
Unencumbered
12:05 / 24.08.04
I have only one thing to add to all this: Show of Hands. Finer contemporary English Folk you won't find anywhere.
 
 
grant
16:10 / 24.08.04
As far as the American folk-rock, or "pop music with occasional folk stylings," you'd probably really like Bob Lind. He had a couple top 40 hits in the mid 60s, and has just now started gigging again.

Mainly known for "Elusive Butterfly of Love" which was covered by everyone. His version has lush strings arranged by Jack Nitzsche (who did the strings on Neil Young's Harvest, too -- same scene). I like most of his other songs better than that one. "Mister Zero" is a melancholy winner, and "Go Ask Your Man" is funny and catchy. The whole album Since There Were Circles is less folk-rock and more singer-songwritery stuff.

Pulp wrote a song sort of inspired by Bob. He's also a pretty cool guy - we work together.
 
 
rizla mission
16:21 / 24.08.04
i feel some pedantic need to point out that none of this is folk music, more pop music with occassional folk stylings.

I was gonna say something along those lines, but didn't particularly want to play the pedantic git and derail the thread into genre-whinging..

Nevertheless though, yeah, it does mildly irk me sometimes when people talk about anybody who sings songs with an acoustic guitar as "folk music". To my mind, 'folk' is stuff that makes a deliberate connection with musical traditions from before the dawn of recorded music (even if a lot of the time it's a completely fanciful or spurious connection). Obviously the boundaries are ridiculously blurred and it's a pretty vague distinction, but I can't help a twinge of anger when the likes of, say, BrightEyes or the Mountain Goats get described as 'folk', rather than the somewhat more accurate "people singing songs in an idiom other than electric rock".
 
 
Ganesh
18:32 / 24.08.04
I did say "very loosely", pop-folk pedants...
 
 
Bed Head
20:03 / 24.08.04
It’s weird...I’m really enjoying reading this thread, but everytime I’ve kept checking back with it I’ve been hoping that Jack Fear is going to weigh in at some point and tell us all hundreds of brilliant secrets that only he knows. Which is kinda folky.

Okay. Please forgive the long post. I’ll join in the big happy Pentangle love-in later, but first I just have to get a big splurge out...

i feel some pedantic need to point out that none of this is folk music, more pop music with occassional folk stylings.

Um, it’s all part of the evolution of folk, innit? Folk is where it’s come from. Personally, I *love* that absurdly mellow 'west-coast' folk-rock vibey stuff, especially in summer, and especially if I'm feeling lazy. I’d second the recommendation of the God-voiced Fred Neil, and I’d also chime in with mentions for earlyish Tim Buckley, Buffalo Springfield, CYSN, oh and American Beauty. Which is mostly all chartbound mainstreamish stuff, but still folky as fuck. And I’m assuming that the reason nobody’s brought up the name of Joni Mitchell so far is because she’s so totally canon as to go without saying.

‘Point is, most of these dudes - Joni, David Crosby, Tim Buckley, Jerry Garcia and all the rest - supposedly started out as earnest young folkies playing in coffeehouses. On rainy/working days I’ve a weakness for that period too: I like the very *idea* of Seeger and chums, beards 'n workboots, civil rights campaigns, socialism, Woody Guthrie workers’ songs, railing against The Man. One of the sparks for this ‘folk revival’ is supposed to have been the Harry Smith Anthology of American Folk Music that Gypsy Lantern mentions upthread. Released in the mid-fifties, it’s pretty much the collection of songs which were then taken up by the postwar generation. According to the legend, Harry Smith was an interesting guy: experimental filmmaker, homeless alcoholic, matey with Ginsberg, obsessive about compiling/cross-referencing just about everything, and a proper occultist dude at that: the booklet he wrote to accompany the Anthology was illustrated with 19th century-style etchings that look as if they’ve been cut and pasted together like clip art, with quotes by people like Robert Fludd and Crowley (GL, you know all this, right?), and there’s an indexing system that tries to cross-reference themes and words used in the records. Basically, the whole thing is written in such a way as to make the songs and performers seem impossibly ancient and distant, rather than recordings from a mere 30 years earlier. And that’s interesting about it too, over 3 volumes he pretty much confined his selections to recordings made between 1927-1932, a very narrow window. Pretty much the point at which recording technology was good enough to make decently audible recordings, yet still before many of the performers had any clear idea as to what records actually sounded like, ie the last time it’s still genuinely ‘folk music’ with an ineffable connection to the past. A couple of years later and you’re starting to have people who’ve learnt how to play from the records, for the records.

Er, anyway. The Anthology’s like a bomb. A weirdness bomb. Fantastic stuff in itself, but also fascinating to listen and realise how thoroughly it’s been used, first in quite a straightforward way to ‘revive’ folk music, but eventually to make 60s fuzzly-guitared pop like The Byrds or something. Alternatively, the same inspiration spun off into more anarchic stuff like The Fugs (first album ‘produced’ by Harry Smith himself, I think in the ‘Andy Warhol producing the Velvets’ sense of the word) or the Holy Modal Rounders. Both from the crazy, useless, fun end of folk-hippy: chanting and drunken singalongs and happenings.

Or, the thread was continued as pure folk. I’ve wittered on about her before, but I think Joan Baez really does have the most beautiful folk voice. A voice like a foghorn full of honey, and she pretty much embodies all I was saying about the impassioned politics of the folkie crowd: all singing ‘We Shall Overcome’ while marching for civil rights and being fiercely pacifist and making your own clothes with a spinning wheel. Fab. Collections of her early Vanguard recordings, where she performs traditional folk songs, just her guitar and that voice... well, they’re wonderful. Because she tries so very hard to be old-fashioned, and because it’s such an *odd* quality to hear, these quaint songs delivered with such absolute, unwavering sincerity.
 
 
rizla mission
17:42 / 25.08.04
In a hurry right now, but, um, brilliant post! Thanks!
 
 
Jack Fear
23:18 / 25.08.04
...hoping that Jack Fear is going to weigh in at some point and tell us all hundreds of brilliant secrets that only he knows.

Been weighing my responses, you know? Pondering the question. Because really, Simon & Garfunkel and the Beach Boys have fuck-all to do with the Great Folk Scare of the Sixties, with Bob Dylan (whom they pointedly mocked in "A Simple Desultory Philippic"), with Phil Ochs, or even Joan Baez.

See, I've been thinking about Simon and Garfunkel and trying to analyze what they were all about and what their place was within the scene of the time. A few thoughts:

SG were mostly apolitical. Yeah, "Scarborough Fair," yeah "Silent Night/Six O'Clock News," yeah yeah. Exceptions. SG were primarily romantic, intellectual, philosophical in a playful way—inner-directed, rather than outwardly engaged. Confessional. Neurotic, even. But definitely more oriented to personal actualization than changing the world.

SG made pretty records. Bob Dylan croaked: Phil Ochs snarled. But Paul and Artie crooned. And where Bob and Phil and the Farinas kept their instrumental accompaniment pointedly simple, as ostentatiously plain as their regular-guy (read: aggressively un-pretty) singing, in the name of "authenticity," SG were crafting lush, intricate arrangements.

SG focused almost exclusively on singer-songwriter material, recording very little of the "folk" canon. Exceptions: again, "Scarborough Fair" and "Silent Night"—each, not coincidentally, radically recontextualized by its quodlibet setting. Early Dylan sets were typical of the times in that they were full of traditional tunes and Woody Guthrie songs: the British wing of folk-rock was even more informed by traditional music—simply because the tradition in the British Isles was of much greater antiquity and far better documented. I suspect this may have something to do with Ganesh's antipathy towards BritFolkRock—it's simply not modern, darling, not modern at all, and frankly (much as I love the genre) hearing an electric-blues outfit pretending to be minstrels in the court of Henry VIII can shade into the risible.

Mostly, SG were intimate. The sheer righteousness of the political folk movement—particularly when dealing with traditional material—often led to a declamatory style that many (myself included) find off-putting. Joan Baez's "foghorn full of honey" (great phrase, BTW) is still a foghorn for a'that and a'that. Double dittoes for Sandy Denny, Maddy Pryor, June Tabor, and esp. Judy Fucking Collins. There was this weird diva thing going on—you were invited to be awed by the pristine beauty of their voices, which is fine, but it's all kind of cool and joyless. SG were relaxed and conversational, and when they shaded into melodrama ("For Emily," f'rinstance) it was with a surfeit of passion and not the calculated theatricality of the divas (viz. Judy Fucking Collins doing "Send In The [Fucking] Clowns").

And that's because SG were making pop records, friends—making, like the Beach Boys, uncommonly sophisticated pop that took in a variety of influences not usually heard in the days of the Brill Building (strains of folk, but also of world music, art song, and chamber orchestra) and drenched them in close vocal harmonies. Their true peers are not the faux-authentic banjo-spankers of the Great Folk Scare (yer New Lost City Ramblers, yer Kingston Trio et al.), but the singer-songwriters who blossomed in their wake—yer Cat Stevenses and James Taylors and suchlike.


So: all that said, all that analyzed: recommendations? Sure.

For the best of the Sixties, I'd say The Byrds. They took the electric-twelve-string groove of "Sounds Of Silence" and turned it into a career. Took Dylan's tunes and made them pop hits, more power to them. Three guitars weaving, dense harmonies, songs of ecstasy (Pete Seeger's "Turn! Turn! Turn!") and unease ("Eight Miles High"). Still glorious.

Joni Mitchell, of course—taking the confessional approach to its apotheosis, songs increasingly overstuffed with words but always with a keen ear for melody and a sharp eye for image. Back catalogue is vast, but I'm still partial to Hejira.

On the Brit side: yes yes yes to (The) Pentangle—Jacqui McShee much less dour than yer stern Sandy Dennys, loose and joyous and jazzy, and Paul Simon nicked all his best guitar parts from Bert Jansch.

Haven't heard a great deal from Lindisfarne, but I've liked what I've heard—warm, prettily arranged and passionately played. Hippie folktones with one foot in pub-rock. "Winter Song" and "Fog On The Tyne" top the list.

More contemporary stuff in the S&G vein: Firstly, The Story. Coming out of Boston in 1990s, a core duo—a singer/songwriter/guitarist and one who just sings—with delicate instumental backing and twining, complex harmonies and rich, abstruse songwriting. Then the twist: they're women! The second album, The Angel In The House, is the best: title track and "Missing Person Afternoon" are classics, I tells ya.

In their early-90s heyday, Pennsylvania's The Innocence Mission were pegged as the poor man's 10,000 Maniacs—a massively unfair assessment, and one they've outgrown as they've ditched the synths and the drums and scaled back to sparkling guitars and Karen Peris's voice, sweet but never cloying. "Where Does The Time Go" and "Lakes Of Canada" (from the CD Birds Of My Neighborhood) are flat-out lovely.

The women of Canada's Be Good Tanyas play a sort of mutant bluegrass, sung in hushed, anxious drawls. An acquired taste, maybe, but on originals like "The Littlest Birds" and "Ship Out On The Sea" it's magical. The album Blue Horse also has a psychedelic take on the traditional "The Coo Coo Bird" and the finest version of "The Lakes of Pontchartrain" that I have ever heard.

ContempoBritFolk: both Kate Rusby and Bill (Belinda) Jones bring playful pop voices to mostly trad material. I like it, but it's not for everyone—it's an awful lot of the fol-de-rol-me-diddle-me-day-O. Worth hearing: "The Drowned Lovers" (Rusby) and "The Barley and the Rye" (Jones). WARNING: Here there be fiddles. And accordions.

Fluxington turned me on to White Magic, a young band out of NYC in the glum-folk-diva mold. Nice version of "Plain Gold Ring," but a band perhaps best taken in small doses.

And I long ago made you mix CDs of both Richard Thompson and Bruce Cockburn, but never got around to mailing them: they got packed away in the move. Here's my incentive to dig them out and get 'em off to you...
 
 
Lea-side
06:15 / 26.08.04
oh, yeah. that mention of the Be Good Tanyas reminds me to mention Jolie Holland. From Texas (i think) her first proper album Escondida is a masterpiece of intimate, loosely arranged folk-y tunes. probably a little more removed from any 'traditional' folk lineage, but still very much worth a listen. her first solo album (she used to be in the BGTs) incidentally was just a bunch of demos recorded at home with her mates, but Tom Waits heard it and signed her to Anti, to record the second album...
 
  

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