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Vikings, Norse culture and The Extreme Right

All Acting Regiment

11:22 / 17.08.04

A lot of white supremacist groups seem to apropriate elements of Norse culture (let's define this for now as the culture in denmark, sweden, iceland, and norway up till about 1200 AD). For example, they refer to themselves as Odin's People; the anti-semitic composer Wagner based his music on nordic mythology, and of course the Third reich based a lot of it's imagery on this.
What I'm intrerested to know is two things:

a) If one admires Norse culture, must one also admire Fascism?

b) To what extent is it acceptable to reference earlier cultures to further your own point of view?

Let's remember that despite being feirce warriors,the Nordic people had a form of democracy- the All-thing, or "All Court", and that women had some rights in that they could divorce their husbands.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

15:34 / 17.08.04

Seeing as the Norse culture predates what we understand today as fascism, I would argue it's fine to accept one without the other, especially as fascism is completely seperate. Think of it as not having to like 'Cagney and Lacey' just because you liked 'Star Trek'.

On the second point, depending on what you mean by 'referencing earlier cultures' and how far you take that, I don't think there's anyone alive that doesn't refer to earlier cultures on a daily basis for the norms they need to work in/kick against their society, or do you mean something distinct and seperate to the culture that surrounds us all every minute of the day?

Grey Area

18:24 / 17.08.04

Let's not forget that the Third Reich assembled a pick-n-mix jumble of cultures and philosophies as a basis for their beliefs. The reason the Nordic culture link gets so much airplay is probably because the stereotypic picture of a Viking corresponds the most with the ideal of the Aryan individual. Plus it's got all those testosterone soaked associations of broadswords, axes, big beards and pillaging.

pointless and uncalled for

09:46 / 18.08.04

It depends on what ones definition of Norse Culture is. If we're looking at Norse Culture in the manner in which we refer to culture today, basically relating to and of the arts then that would be one thing. However, should you wish to bridge that rather treacherous gulf to then include social practice then that takes you in an altogether different direction.

cusm

20:10 / 31.08.04

I think the premise here is faulty for the assumption that Norse culture is fascist because the Nazi's adoped some of their iconography. The Nazi's made good use of the runes and Germanic icons because they were Germanic and thus nationalizing, and because they just looked cool. The Nazi's had one of the best marketing campaigns in history. They made mad good use of logos. But this doesn't mean a modern Asatru is anything like Bush. That's a bit of a leap to be taking.

But there is an element of importance on strength, I'll grant. The connection this thread implies then is (if we manage to not get further sidetracked by Nazis), that Fascism is a modern manifestation of Warrior Culture. If examining the details of Fascism, does this comparason hold water?

jmw

21:55 / 31.08.04

I recently wrote a lengthy piece tangentially related to this subject for a mag which duly went under, leaving me with an unpublished manuscript. If I ever get it published I'll give a heads-up here. In the meantime I suggest reading Mattias Gardell's book, "Gods of the Blood".

Gardell is a Swedish religious historian, the book traces the rise of Norse religion in the American far-right milieu. It was published last year by Duke University Press.

J...

DecayingInsect

14:22 / 01.09.04

Didn't fascism, at least in the Italian outbreak, look to the early Roman State for inspiration?

The Teutonic Knights make better proto-nazis than the Norse: land-grabs to the east, pogroms: they did the lot.

From the sagas the Norse seem to have been more into trade, piracy and mercinary adventures.

Nutzis/Far Right/Asatru: check out Dreamer of the Day by Kevin Coogan

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:07 / 01.09.04

Didn't fascism, at least in the Italian outbreak, look to the early Roman State for inspiration?

Italian fascists looked to the glories of antic Rome ... the fasces of Italian fascism are nicked from the fasces carried by the lictors, symbolising the unity of the Roman people, but I don't think the political systems had much in common...

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:12 / 01.09.04

Incidentally, I don't think you can describe Wagner as the extreme right... if anything, he is part of the fantasies of great Germany, along with Bismarck, the Kaiser and the Franco-Prussian war, that *informed* the far right in Germany. Anti-Semitism in Europe in the mid 19th century was by no means extremist. In fact, this rather supports the idea that the Germanic and Nordic peoples might simply be fascinated by the culture of the Germanic and Nordic peoples.

grant

15:15 / 01.09.04

I know some historians have viewed the Crusades as an extension of Viking raids -- lots of young men, nowhere to prove their might as their grandfathers did....

It might be that the Teutonic Knights are really just Vikings in armor.

jmw

17:28 / 02.09.04

Grant,

I don't doubt that some historians do see the Crusaders as avatars for the Vikings, but I'd argue that that's something of a specious correlation.

Anyway, the key to Asartú and the rise of Nordic paganism in the far-right is to understand it as a sociological phenomenon. Norse folk-religion is a handy "white" religion for right-wing revolutionaries seeking to legitimise their project in terms of history.

The previous "big" religion on the far-right was "Christian Identity", but this seems to be flagging. In some sense it came out of a revival of the ideas first mooted at the Brown Synod of the German Lutheran church, and was an attempt to remove jews from the bible. A startlingly ambitious (and insane) project, but perhaps one should not expect sanity from fascists.

J...

DecayingInsect

12:12 / 03.09.04

Teutonic Knights are really just Vikings in armor

Appropriation of the vikings: how about Eisenstein's Alexander Nevsky? The Rus look like vikings and of course the Teutonic Knights look like nazis (with antlers)...

On the other hand of course there was SS Wiking...

Asatru/Far Right/Insanity: there's a book Black Sun by Nicholas Goodrick-Clark: check out some of the cults in that! The Christian Identity/KKK may be insane but they forgot to add in the UFOs from Atlantis.

jmw

13:43 / 03.09.04

On the other hand of course there was SS Wiking...

Nordic stuff in general certainly seems to appeal to the white-right. The symbols that the National Front use have Nordic origins.

As you point out there were a number of Nordic SS Divisions in the German army in WW2, all volunteers from Nordic countries. A division is about 20,000 men.

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