BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Fucking

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Brigade du jour
18:25 / 12.08.04
First off, I'd like to point out that what I'm trying to do here is talk about sexual needs on the most basic and irreducible level that I can. My apologies if there's a thread on this subject already, but I don't recall seeing one.

I am not, therefore, talking about any value judgements about who or what a person fucks, or even homo-, hetero- or bisexuality as a concept, ok? I'm merely trying to see whether anyone agrees or disagrees that 'fucking' is a basic human need, comparable in its 'basicness' to a need for food or air.

I'm not even talking about sex per se, because sex can mean all sorts of things to all sorts of people. What I'm postulating is that every man who has one wants to put his penis in something, and every woman who has one wants to put something in her vagina. What that something is (for a man it might be a vagina, an anus, a mouth, a tree trunk, his own fist; for a woman it might be a penis, a finger, a forearm, a cucumber) I don't think is really relevant to the discussion, at least as I see it. If you think it is, then do bring it on in.

As you'll no doubt have gathered, I have used very crude language here. This is very deliberate, as I would also like to explore what I regard as an inherent violence in fucking. There's a bluntness, a curtness to it which many people, myself included, seem to find highly arousing. and I'm curious as to the significance of this 'consenting violence' (is it, therefore, violence at all?).

I just read all that back and it sounded awfully pompous! My apologies for that as well, I've been reading a lot of Antrhony Burgess lately. Anyway, what do you reckon?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:55 / 12.08.04
I think there are some assumptions here that need to be challenged, the first one being that the during the act of penetration, the penetrator is the fucker and the person being penetrated is the fuckee. What's the basis? I'm sure many can testify to the fact that the act of basic penis-orifice sex does not require the person with the penis to be the active one and the person with the orifice to be passive.

Secondly, there is the assumption that men tend towards a desire to penetrate and women towards a desire to be penetrated. Again, people will probably be queueing up to refute this on the basis of personal experience already. There are a lot of men who are really, really into being penetrated and a lot of women who aren't.

Once we've rejected the first assumption we also need to deal with a different version of the second: that men need to be the active participant and women the passive. Do I need to go into why this isn't true?

So we're left with the suggestion that sex is natural, sex is good, not everybody does it but everybody should. And that fucking is sexier than making love. Yeah, I'd go along with that.
 
 
cusm
20:40 / 12.08.04
So if you take away all the emphasis on penetration, dominance, and the supposed violence of penetration before this thread is hopelessly sidetracked on it, you are left with the savage need for tactile stimulation of the naughty bits. Does this still fulfill the concept that you wish to explore, and can you rephrase it with this improved focus on what may be the actual relevant part?
 
 
cusm
20:42 / 12.08.04
Or is it just penetration itself you are on about?
 
 
Brigade du jour
21:25 / 12.08.04
I'm just talking about penetration. Definitely. And Flyboy, I already said that it wasn't necessarily sex I was talking about, it was specifically fucking, or as you rather more politely put it, penetration. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.

You got me on the men/women thing, though. Maybe this thread would be better described as an interrogation of that very assumption. Of course, jesus, loads of men like to be penetrated (ah dang it, can't I say 'fucked'? It sounds rude in that 'I'm intellectual therefore I'm allowed to swear' way!). In fact, without getting too personal, I've always found the idea quite attractive myself, though I've never had the nerve to try it.

But Flyboy, I'm intrigued to know exactly what you mean by the penetrator not necessarily being a 'fucker' and the penetrated not necessarily being a 'fuckee'. Plus, I wonder, how does that work with masturbation whereby one penetrates/fucks oneself?
 
 
Loomis
07:32 / 13.08.04
I'm merely trying to see whether anyone agrees or disagrees that 'fucking' is a basic human need, comparable in its 'basicness' to a need for food or air.

Sorry to point out the obvious but ... you are aware of course that you will die without food or air but lack of fucking will not kill you? Which makes the comparison fairly untenable I should think.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
09:15 / 13.08.04
I would second Flyboy's sentiments here.

In reduction it seems as if you are asking if the need/desire to fuck/be fucked is relative to equipment.

Taking into account the infinite variety in which we do and can exist the answer, as concisely as I can put it, is no.
 
 
Cat Chant
10:40 / 13.08.04
every woman who has one wants to put something in her vagina

Well, leaving aside the equation of 'putting something in a vagina' with 'being fucked', the above statement is simply not true (of me, for one, but I'm certainly not the only person with a vagina - not even the only p-w-a-v I know - who doesn't like having things in it). There is also a theory that internal vaginal stimulation is only pleasurable to those women for whom it stimulates the internal portion of the clitoris; for women who aren't built in exactly the right way, it's sort of like rubbing a man's tummy in the expectation that it'll send enough indirect stimulation to his cock for him to have an orgasm.

I'd also take very strong issue with the idea that all forms of penile stimulation can be expressed as putting a penis "in" something - expressing a hand job as the "penetration" of a hand, for example, stretches your argument so far that it stops, for me. Then we start getting into whether a person with a penis is getting off on the idea of penetrating a hand - experiencing it as putting hir cock "in" a hand, even though that isn't what's actually happening, which complicates it all even further.
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
11:15 / 13.08.04
To my mind, having a penis does not automatically equal being the fucker - sex, or fucking, if you prefer, is much more than just the positioning of your man and lady bits and who's doing the thrusting. But, to contradict myself blatantly here, if a man is lying on his back and the woman is on top riding him, I would venture to say that she's the one fucking him.

I personally don't care much for penetration, but in general I would take issue with your assumption that women have a deep-rooted (pardon my vocab) need to be fucked - men and women can be active or passive (and whether we need to term it as such I would also take issue with...) there are plenty of women who prefer to be more active than their male partner, and plenty of men who express a need to be more passive - as demonstrated by the dominatrix fantasy that I guess a lot of men have. Just my two cents.
 
 
Hattie's Kitchen
11:17 / 13.08.04
Oops, meant to add - penile penetration could just as easily be desribed as a need to be "enveloped" by the vagina - so again the terms of fucker and fuckee become rather hazy...
 
 
Brigade du jour
16:45 / 13.08.04
Interesting point that, HK. Seems that there definitely are many ways to 'fuck' and 'be fucked', not necessarily tied to what equipment a person has.

I suppose it's got more to do with gender than it has with sex then, given that gender is, to put it crudely, cultural sexual identification and sex is natural sexual assignment.

Think I'll go read a couple of gender threads. Thanks everyone for your insights. I've said this before, but I knew I'd learn a few things on Barbelith!
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:55 / 13.08.04
I suppose it's got more to do with gender than it has with sex then

I'm confused- what has more to do with gender?
 
 
Brigade du jour
03:41 / 14.08.04
One's desire/need/urge (delete as applicable) to 'fuck' or 'be fucked'.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:32 / 14.08.04
I don't think that follows at all, but I don't think I could go any further without both exposing my ignorance and inadvertantly offending some people on the board, so I'll leave it for someone braver than I to take up.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:42 / 14.08.04
You're also assuming that the libido has a constant and universal value- there are those who require no fuckage whatsoever, and those who require lots, in all camps, I would assume.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:44 / 14.08.04
I'm afraid that I suspect that is going to be revealed as another model too simple to hold up. If I *identify* as a woman, whether or not I happen to have been born with a certain set of genitalia or a certain set of chromosomes, I'm not sure that has any relevance to whether I want to be "fucked" (that is, have something put in my vagina, or metric equivalent). Unless you want to make "wanting something to be put in my vagina" a key and essential element of being a woman - that is, that Deva and her friends with vaginas cannot be "women", because they do not want those vaginas to be occupied. Now, those people may have chosen not to identify as women, but is there a difference between that and not being *allowed* to identify as a woman on the strength of a particular attitude to "being fucked"?

(Monique Wittig is interesting on this - she once said that, although the had something that *looked* like a vagina, it would be a mistake to say that she had a vagina, because the expectations of the word "vagina" were not fulfilled in its experience and usage.)
 
 
Ex
10:47 / 16.08.04
Rather than finding the answer by switching from sex to gender, I suspect this is the kind of thing that shows that sex and gender are hopelessly confused. Society looks to biology to show what is 'female' and this then gets used to explain/justify the idea of 'woman', but actually the social idea of 'woman' largely determines what we see when we look at the biology. So we see ‘receptive’ vaginas, we see penetrative penis-in-vagina sex as a ‘basic urge’, we see sperm pursuing and penetrating eggs; I'd argue that these biological observations are as much imaginative creations based in gender.
For example, I was thinking about how biology is sometimes understood by looking at wildlife, and seeing fucking as the thing that keeps species alive. But primate species spend what - a couple of minutes every few months fucking? Whereas they (and many of the cuter forms of lemur and rodent) spend hours every day grooming. So while grooming is a basic social need and vital for offspring thriving and communities functioning, you don't hear much about it in biological explanations of human interaction. And I've certainly been chatted up by chaps referencing the biology necessity of fucking, but nobody's said they really need to go through my hair and check for lice (all night long, baby).

Basically, I think fucking is culturally massively overvalued. I think that historically, femininity has been associated with being fucked and masculinity with fucking, but I think that’s a complex social formation rather than something that bingles our bits and makes us go forth and seek orifices and pokey bits. And by the time you’d weeded off all the accumulated associations, lord knows what would actually be ‘underneath’, or if there is an ‘underneath’.
 
 
Why?
19:04 / 16.08.04
Ex, things are definitely confused. i mean, where do we draw the lines? the first sentence of this thread says that we're talking about sexual needs on the most basic level, and that i know for one often wonder what those are. Ex claims that fucking is culturally overvalued, and i wonder if that is possible.

certainly if you look at things biologically, then the need to impregnate/be impregnated is the most basic biological "need" for sex, but we're dealing with the human experience here, and being intellectual creatures there are going to be valid, complex, intellectual needs as well, aren't there?. does biology trump psychology? you're not going to see the kind of passive/dominant variations in lemurs that you'll see in humans, but does that make our needs in that regard less valuable? we don't fuck solely to propigate our species as do other animals on this planet. part of our evolution has included an evolution in the nature of fucking that goes far beyond making babies or even just fiddling with our naughty bits.

but then there are those who would claim that fucking has become so casual on our society today that we're actually regressing in this regard and that we value the pyschological components of sheet beating very little- so we're moving beyond fucking for both biological reasons and psychological reasons. i think it's valid to ask whether we've actually reached some even deeper level of fucking need. of course what that is, i don't know. pleasure? just so we don't forget how? but do we value fucking? typically we place great value in that which is rare, which does not permeate the mundane everyday experience. seems to me that fucking has not so much been over valued as absorbed into our routine.
 
 
LykeX
22:03 / 16.08.04
Ex, you might be onto something there. Perhaps our actual need is not sex, but simply physical contact and for some reason sex is the only socially acceptable form of close physical contact.
Like you say, who would go up to someone saying 'Hi, I'd like to ruffle your hair and nussle your ears.' You'd be considered weird if you did. But you can ask someone to have sex with you, and then nussle their ears before, during and/or after.

This might very well just be another extreme point of view, but it's worth thinking about.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:24 / 16.08.04
One's desire/need/urge (delete as applicable) to 'fuck' or 'be fucked'

Does this not still assume that women want to be fucked and men want to fuck? Is that not what everyone has been arguing against? Am I taking crazy pills?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
01:56 / 17.08.04
The binary pairings of fuckee/fucked, female/male, vagina/penis, hole/pole all depend on a biologistic model reifying reproduction of a particular kind. But like Ex said, the 'ground' of reproductive biology is not necessarily a ground at all. Besides, I can see a number of sources of the fuckee/fucker pair that don't come from biology. There's Freud; there's the Freud-influenced 60's sexual liberation schtick which advocated heterosexual sex, but only in certain ways; there's 'The Rules', bad porn, et cetera.

One effect of this logic is a story that produces men as virile, active and independent, and women as (gee, really?) always and forever dependent on men to sexually 'take' them.

As well: the reduction of penis/vagina to what counts as 'sex' reduces people's ability to find pleasure in their own and others' bodies. What I mean is that 'sexual pleasure' might, for many people, not have anything to do with the genitalia. But I'm also saying that certain expectations and sexual 'facts' -- for example, the 'G spot', 'vaginal orgasm', even 'clitoral orgasm', besides which the expectation that ejaculation equals orgasm, for men, that men all come from being penetrated -- these expectations have a lot to do with how people actually have sex, or don't. But if such expectations didn't exist, would anyone fuck in such a way as to confirm them? I think that whatever the physical logistics, people would read them differently.
 
 
The Strobe
11:26 / 23.08.04
Going back to what Loomis said (briefly, though possibly not hugely on-topic):

you are aware of course that you will die without food or air but lack of fucking will not kill you?

Only if "fucking" doesn't mean "procreation". Because, long-term, lack of fucking-to-induce-offspring will kill off a race.

Of course, this opens up the whole sex/reproduction issue. The two are definitely seperate, I do not deny that. But the first statement = "all men need to fuck, all women need to be fucked" makes a definite kind of sense if you regress a little. Go back to prehistoric man, before gender-theory, before people had time to discuss things like this because they weren't too busy trying to find things to eat to stay alive.

They'd probably tell you that they needed to fuck, because they needed to have babies. Apart from the one or two who were ostracised for not liking things in their vagina or wearing their sister's bearskin.

Of course, now we know better; we know that sometimes it's nice to have sex that doesn't (and often physically can't) lead to babies, that the ones cavepeople ostracised are probably just as worth of inclusions as the rest, and that the long-term survival of the human race is safe in the hands of a heteronormative majority.

But it wasn't always like that.

I don't think you can argue that fucking is a "basic human instinct", all told.

I do think you can argue it's a basic animal instinct.
 
 
Cat Chant
11:48 / 23.08.04
You know that many, many species of animals (certainly mammals and birds, don't know about other examples) do non-reproductive sex, whether mixed-sex or same-sex, don't you? That is, it's not just humans who 'invented' recreational sex, and physical contact (including genital stimulation and orgasm) for non-reproductive ends is just as 'natural' (at least, just as observable among non-human mammals/birds/etc) as procreative sex.
 
 
Ex
17:40 / 23.08.04
They'd probably tell you that they needed to fuck, because they needed to have babies. Apart from the one or two who were ostracised for not liking things in their vagina or wearing their sister's bearskin.

I know this is partly playful, but it seems as though you've taken a totally modern perception of gender relations (right down to the cross-dressers being persecuted for not wanting to fuck ladies) and transposed it to prehistoric times, and then 'found' it and gone 'Blimey! Prehistoric cave habits were really heternormative!' Is there any backup for that?

As far as I understand we actually have very little idea about what prehistoric (wo)man got up to. Like 'nature', prehistory is a handy thing to use for supporting trad notions of sex which involving sticking things in things.

In practical terms, it wouldn't take that much more time/energy, or significantly reduce one's ability to reproduce, if everyone in a small dwelling group spent Sunday night in a big polymorphously perverse huddle of licking and frottage. Alternately, or additionally, they could have had rigorously penis-in-vagina sex every Tuesday, just to get pregnant, but there's not knowing whether that was their primary sexual pleasure, or central to their emotional life, or possibly just a tedious necessity.

Sex serves diverse purposes (bonding, supportive, pleasurable, claiming status, selling things) in our culture, and I wouldn't be surprised if it served more purposes than getting pregnant (I’m guessing here, but - more bonding, religious, forming alliances, claiming status again) in prehistoric cultures. Assuming that sex would be stripped down to the act of getting pregnant obscures the other purposes to which people put sex/physical pleasure, even in very hard-up societies.

they weren't too busy trying to find things to eat to stay alive.

In subsistence cultures, I imagine quite a premium would be placed on the women not getting pregnant, at least not every year. Possibly they developed skills and non-penetrative delights that we, with our rampant rabbits, are only recently rediscovering...
 
 
The Strobe
19:58 / 23.08.04
Well, I appear to have been put in my place good and proper. "Playful" was not quite the intention I had in mind; I was being serious, albeit in a light-hearted manner that was not completely thought through, given I was in a workplace situation at the time, and in a foolish attempt to lighten the thread.

What both Deva's and Ex's response has suggested to me is this question: how advanced does a species (I hope that's the right word) have to be before it starts contemplating sex-for-purposes-other-than-reproductive - ie recreational sex, non-vanilla (see other threads on this topic) sex, homo- and poly- sexual relationships, etcetera? It seems that there's a very prickly defence to even the slightest suggestion that heterosexuality is an animal, primal urge - Deva was certainly remarkably speedy to pick up on my post.

Ex: in all honesty, no, there is no backup for me suggestion that in simpler, less theory- and more practical- based times, people were more heteronormative than now, and that reaction to kinks and non-hetero-sex was the same then as it was now. It was trivialising and I apologise.I would, however, still argue quite strongly that eventually you will go far enough back in time or evolution to find society - human or otherwise - that behaved in this manner. It might be so far back to make no difference, but I'm doing this out of curiosity, not out of desperate attempt to promote heterosexuality to the sceptical.

That's all I can think of for now. Might post more if more comes to me, but it's a post in progress, not complete.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:55 / 23.08.04
She might also have been swift to correct you because she read your post and thought "hmmm, perhaps I should correct that misapprehension"... I don't think speed of typing is necessarily a sign of emotional instability... what you are doing there is assuming that people are prickly, as opposed to simply interested in contributing to the thread. It's a bit ad hominem, and I'd suggest keeping an eye out for it.

What both Deva's and Ex's response has suggested to me is this question: how advanced does a species (I hope that's the right word) have to be before it starts contemplating sex-for-purposes-other-than-reproductive - ie recreational sex, non-vanilla (see other threads on this topic) sex, homo- and poly- sexual relationships, etcetera?

I'm not sure it works like that, does it? I mean, lots of animal species indulge in sexual practices that would be decidedly abnormal for humans - cannibalism, incest and multiple partners, to name but a few. I believe that there are primate groups with gay pair-bonds who help to raise and protect the children of other primates (help me out here, anyone...) I don't think that's necessarily about advancement per se.

As such, I would have to question a) the idea that *we all have to fuck and be fucked, because otherwise the race dies out*. This is clearly untrue. *Some* of us need to fuck and be fucked, possibly, depending on how you want to look at those terms, but if you go back to the point where even this could be some form of primal truth, you are probably back way beyond the point where the concept of "fucking" or "being fucked" was comprehensible to the creature (horses and dogs, for starters, are not universally hetero). As such, I don't think your thesis is necessarily functional. Nor am I convinced by the idea that if you go back far enough relations are "heteronormative" - heteronormativity being a pretty recent concept. Would, say, an Ancient Greek who enjoyed sex with his wife but also enjoyed fondling teenaged boys thing of himself as non-heteronormative, or as gay or bi? I don't think so... the terminology you're applying just doesn't cohere in the context to which you are applying it.

Frankly, there is no evidence that your imagined society would function in terms of hetero pair-bonds and the forcible exclusion of the different, any more than there is evidence that at any point the entire human race was any more gripped by the urge to procreate than it is now. You are also forgetting that there are plenty of people outside the heteronormative majority who want children, and who through various means obtain them, just as you are assuming that the fact that contraception was of dubious efficacy, say, two thousand years ago meant that women *wanted* all those babies, which is pretty clearly not universally true - abortifacients have been around for a long, long time...

So, on the whole I think your visions of human evolution, of human society and of human sexuality need a bit of work.
 
 
The Strobe
21:25 / 23.08.04
Many of my questions were not nonne questions; they were asked with genuine curiosity and not from an assumed perspective of "rightness". For instance, I entirely see the Haus' point that it's inappropriate to apply incoherent terminology. Unfortunately, I do not know what the vocabulary is to describe, well, pre-sex-and-gender-theory sex-and-gender-theory; I don't have the metalanguage to hand. So I use whatever I've got, fully appreciating that it's not my specialist field of knowledge, and am open to suggestions and corrections.

I'm not so open to mis-interpretation. For instance, I never suggested that "we all have to fuck and be fucked, because otherwise the race dies out". I did, in fact, suggest that only some of us had to, as the Haus put forward (and if I did not then I certainly meant it), and that would seem to be what the human race is doing. Hell, as long as a few people are prepared to take one for the team, everybody else can do pretty much whatever the hell else they want. Similarly, I did not suggest that " the cross-dressers were being persecuted for not wanting to fuck ladies". (In fact, I'd imagined it as they were being persecuted simply for being cross-dressers). I don't like descending into pedantry, as so often is the danger in a Head Shop thread, but I don't find it helps me appreciate people trying to correct my genuine mistakes and errors when they start also correcting things I never actually said.

I haven't attempted to advocate rightness, and am in some ways advancing ideas I know to be flawed in order to get a clear, illustrated explanation of what precisely is wrong with them. I'm finding the vehemence of the responses I've received - which have been in many ways, as I mentioned, useful - slightly irksome.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:15 / 23.08.04
Way-ull... as I say, perhaps deciding that people were corecitng you because they were upset and spiky rather than because they saw things that required correction was a bad idea...
 
 
Cat Chant
09:25 / 24.08.04
I have to say I'm not seeing any vehemence. Possibly until now...

I would, however, still argue quite strongly that eventually you will go far enough back in time or evolution to find society - human or otherwise - that behaved in this manner.

But on what grounds would you argue that, given that, as you say, you have no evidence for it - and, moreover, the observable behaviour of all known human societies, primate societies, most mammals, birds, and other sexually dimorphous species does not conform to this? Why do you believe that the basis of sex is fucking-for-reproduction and all other sexual behaviours are add-ons, the product of 'advancement' in evolution or social complexity, when there is no evidence for this view? Like Ex said, you seem to be asserting that it must, a priori, be so, and therefore there must be a society, species or time period that backs it up. That's not really very convincing.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:48 / 24.08.04
Might it be wise to interject a little evolutionary psychology at this point? (Not that I am saying this is some final arbiter, nor necessarily that convincing, but it teases out some useful distinctions).

I think that interpreted in the right way, the selfish gene way, the basis of sex is clearly reproduction. But it is extremely dubious to conclude, as others have pointed out, that this means that there was some prehistoric version of humanity whose sex was purely or predominantly a mechanism for reproduction. It is entirely plausible (though far from clear cut) that the evolutionary pressure to reproduce can be seen psychologically as a strong desire to have sex. One might even want to argue that this is what makes contraception difficult, especially for teenagers. Or not.

But just because (to use the Dawkins shorthand) your genes want you to reproduce, doesn't mean that you aren't going to be attracted to partners innapropriate for this purpose. In fact this seems a common feature of evolutionary psychology, that a tendency can be expressed in a variety of ways due to complex interactions and competing drives and just randomness. As long as enough people have kids, there is no reason for the correctly identified evolutionary pressure to dictate behaviour.

I guess I am saying that you don't need a theory, in any non-trivial sense, to want to fuck someone.
 
 
Ex
10:01 / 24.08.04
Sorry I confused your sentences, Paleface. You're right - I read the sentences as 'crossdressers wouldn't tell you that one needs to fuck' which made me think you pictured them as gay/mastrubators/celibate, but you didn't say that would lead to their ostracisation.

I didn't think you were trivialising anything, so apologies if I sounded overly prickly. I do think that even if one fucks essentially for reproduction, there isn't any obvious social frame for that fucking, so earlier societies might look quite surprisingly 'queer' in a modern heterosexual framework. Also, that other sexual practices don't necessarily come out of sophistication or modern advancements.
 
 
Cat Chant
13:45 / 24.08.04
interpreted in the right way, the selfish gene way, the basis of sex is clearly reproduction.

This feels a bit tautological to me - again, like interpreting the facts to fit the theory. The theory is... okay, I'm not sure, but possibly that the evolutionary imperative to reproduce one's genes is responsible for creatures evolving in such a way as to find pleasure in activities likely to result in reproduction. But in order for that to mean that the basis of sex is reproduction, you have to define 'sex' as 'activities likely to result in reproduction', rather than 'activities which are pleasurable in a specifically sexual/orgasm-producing way' (not all of which are, of course, likely to result in reproduction). And I don't see the empirical (observable in other animal species) or experiential (observable in humans) basis on which you can define sex in such a way, except in order to make it fit the theory.

I guess I think of reproductive sex more like pollination. Bees do it because they want the honey (baby), and by an evolutionary felicity, it results in reproduction; but pollination is not the basis of bees gathering nectar.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:45 / 24.08.04
The "sefish gene" qualification is a fairly big one but I'm not sure that we actually disagree.

Just to unpack it a little...I meant that the functional aspect of sex, from an evolutionary standpoint, is reproduction. This doesn't mean that all sex leads or even has a chance of resulting in reproduction. Functions can be, and inevitably are, subverted (in the sense of this kind of explanation). And I'm not making a moral claim that there is a natural and proper function of sex - this involves completely separate judgements. Rather, all I'm saying is that the reproductive fuction of sex is crucial in shaping the way animals have sex and the psychology surrounding it. None of this is particularly simple or well understood, as far as I know. So for instance this,

but possibly that the evolutionary imperative to reproduce one's genes is responsible for creatures evolving in such a way as to find pleasure in activities likely to result in reproduction.

sounds plausible. But this,

But in order for that to mean that the basis of sex is reproduction, you have to define 'sex' as 'activities likely to result in reproduction', rather than 'activities which are pleasurable in a specifically sexual/orgasm-producing way'

isn't quite right, since it is also plausible that the mechanism for providing incentives for sex are simply via orgasm (actually, it is bound to be far more complex than this, and has to include social elements at the very least, but lets leave that for now) and that you "fool" those selfish genes into giving you pleasure that they want for reproduction by having enjoyable sex without the possibility of babies. And thats ok as long as enough people *do* reproduce.

There are still problems with this point of view, but it isn't entirely tautological, I think.
 
 
Cat Chant
16:05 / 24.08.04
I'm not sure that we actually disagree.

Me neither - I'm coming to this (arguments from evolutionary psychology) from a particular position of ignorance* and scepticism** which I hope is relatively useful rather than foreclosing-in-advance, if you see what I mean. Will think about your post more when I am less tired and can follow it better.

*ie, I don't know what EP means by 'sex'

**ie, I'm on the lookout for EP using a loosely-defined term as if it had precise scientific value
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:46 / 24.08.04
I am also v. tired, but might it be possible to broker a solution to the Paleface question by suggesting that if one went back far enough to reach this point, assuming it existed, one woudl not only be pre-Gender studies but also in all probability pre-man and pre-woman?
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply