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Why bother employing men at all?

 
 
Jub
10:08 / 28.07.04
I'm not really sure if this is a conversation topic, but here goes...

I keep hearing that despite sexism decreasing in our society generally over the past few decades, men still get paid more than women for the same job.

We've even seen out illustiours leader choosing as a flagship third term policy the creation of an "Equal Pay Commission".

So what's it all about? is it really that simple? Could there be other factors leading to the apparent discrimination?

Ever since I can rememebr I've heard that women get paid less for the same work - at the moment the received wisdom is that the average is 76%, but with part-timers it is sometimes said to be as low as 60%. A group called Payfinder said the gap is growing as salaries increase, and it's visible across all categories, by region, sector and role.

But wait a minute.

If an employer could employ nearly four women for the price of hiring three men, why would he ever hire men at all? Even if the employer was the world's biggest sexist, he could still not survive in business if his competitors were getting one-third more output from their employees for the same money.

Tell me where I'm going wrong.

Essentially, if basic economics suggests that such stats should result in an all-female workforce, why hasn't it happened?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:21 / 28.07.04
Because it's not simply a matter of a man and a woman doing the same job at the same firm, only the woman gets paid less. It's also a matter of hiring practices (men are more likely to get hired for certain jobs than women), promotion prospects (with men being more likely to get promoted than women), and other similar factors. Women are more likley to end up looking after kids than men, too, which cuts their earning power dramatically.
 
 
Nobody's girl
10:39 / 28.07.04
Well, maybe they do. For example- Care work is heavily dominated by women and conincidentally happens to be one of lowest paid areas to work in. Efforts have been made to rectify this recently (in Scotland at least) which I heartily applaud.

When I was 19 I worked at a Nursery as an assistant. There were women working there who had trained for three years and worked childcare for 10+ years. They earned 11,000 a year. Me? I earned 400 pounds a month for full-time work.

When I worked in the local hospital I worked with a woman who had been demoted for taking time off to raise her children.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:49 / 28.07.04
Mmm, quite. Also, part-time work is dominated by women, for obvious reasons to do with women being the main carers of both children and elderly family members (especially in families who can't afford the cost of care homes or who prefer not to use them). I expect more temps are women than men, as well. And part-time workers and temps have lower wages and (much) less security than other workers.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:51 / 28.07.04
So basically there will be a large pay disparity over a lifetime.

Better paternity leave arrangements might help a little bit, but they wouldn't solve the care problem...
 
 
Jub
11:00 / 28.07.04
and also studies prove that women are less pushy when it comes to payrises, and I agree about what you say

It's also a matter of hiring practices (men are more likely to get hired for certain jobs than women)
Maybe... I mean we have sex equality laws and so the disparity in hiring has been attacked (granted: not perfectly, but the situation is markedly better today than it was even 20 years ago. Despite that there is still this difference in pay across the spectrum. The argument is about pay disparity, not employment rights. That one has already been won.

promotion prospects (with men being more likely to get promoted than women) and other similar factors. Women are more likley to end up looking after kids than men, too, which cuts their earning power dramatically.

If a woman thought she was being paid less than a man to do her job, just give her her lawsuit settlement now and she can retire. Quite right. I concur.... but women do take more time off work for childbearing. So even where they are doing the "same" job as men the men often have more seniority.

Apparently the biggest difference in income is between married women and everyone else. Women who never married have long held their own economically. So why is this? Discrimination? No. Women often avoid taking jobs demanding long hours and/or extensive travel, as these make personal childcare all but impossible.

That usually means interruptions in careers or different choices of careers beforehand, because some occupations weather interruptions better than others. Sheer dogmatic repetition has pounded into our minds the notion that all groups have similar capabilities, when in fact they do not and nor do they necessarily even have the same interest in developing such capabilities. One can argue that potential is the same, but developed capabilities depend on a lot more including interest and circumstances.

Why care about the real reasons if it means you can sue and put the burden of proof on your employer? Once a lawsuit is under way, the pressure is on the accused employer to settle, rather than risk bad publicity that could hurt profits. And, once they settle, that is taken as proof of guilt, no matter what anybody says.

The point I am making is that extrapolating from those specific injustices to a wider reliance on bare statistics comparing rates of pay and then using that to set up and Equal Pay Commission is brainless.

In many cases ladies CHOOSE the lower paid options for other reasons, and that is why we don't have an all-lady workforce as suggested in my first post.
 
 
Nobody's girl
11:06 / 28.07.04
...holding...back...rage....
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:16 / 28.07.04
Why care about the real reasons if it means you can sue and put the burden of proof on your employer? Once a lawsuit is under way, the pressure is on the accused employer to settle, rather than risk bad publicity that could hurt profits. And, once they settle, that is taken as proof of guilt, no matter what anybody says.


Fuh? I don't understand what you are getting at here. Are you saying that women habitually sue over sex discrimination for trumped-up reasons, when everyone really knows they want to have their cake and eat it, by.. er... being paid the same as their male colleagues for doing the same job, shock horror? Can you explain?

I think the seniority argument is a bit of a red herring, as well. I take it you mean that male workers who do not take breaks for care purposes might accrue year-on-year pay rises which female colleagues do not, which I suppose is possible, but I don't think it's valid in all cases, and I don't think it's sufficient to account for discrepancies (especially in the current climate, where women are made to feel obliged to go back to work as soon as maternity leave is over, and families with two parents working are very common). Moreover, shouldn't a woman hired to do the same job as a man, at the same level, be employed at the same salary as a matter of course? I don't see what your problem is.

Me, I think a bigger problem is the conintuing failure of government and society to recognise care of children or the elderly in the home as a valid job or occupation, and to provide sufficient support for those members of society who are engaged in such care.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:22 / 28.07.04
Well - not a 'bigger problem', but an often unrecognised part of the more general problem of wage disparity.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:37 / 28.07.04
In many cases ladies CHOOSE the lower paid options

*whacks Jub over the head with a pile of rejection letters for electronics jobs*
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:44 / 28.07.04
I don't see what your problem is.

Well, it's just a guess, but I'm going for a lady boss.

The other problem with the litigant's model is that having sued your employer looks pretty bad when you apply for your next job, yes? A 50 grand settlement may look terribly fat and inviting, but if it takes £5k a year year-on-year, say, off the jobs you can hope to get with your experience and abilities, because you are a) a troublemaker and b) just looking for a chance to sue your employer over some minor infraction and have a great big payday, it becomes less useful.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:50 / 28.07.04
Well, yes, but as Jub has pointed out:

If a woman thought she was being paid less than a man to do her job, just give her her lawsuit settlement now and she can retire.

Those lazy, conniving women, they just want to stay at home and watch telly and eat chocolates all day on the fat profits of their illegitimate sex discrimination actions... should be illegal...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:33 / 28.07.04
Why care about the real reasons if it means you can sue and put the burden of proof on your employer?

Dude, if the burden of proof was on the employer, I'd be a fucking millionaire by now. What about all those times I've picked up the phone to call about a brand new job ad, only to be greeted with a curt "it's gone"? What do I do then, eh? How do I prove that the job was ever even there, let alone that I was not given it because of those pesky double Xs?

Once a lawsuit is under way, the pressure is on the accused employer to settle, rather than risk bad publicity that could hurt profits.

I don't see how this could possibly hurt profits, since the prevailing view today seems to be that the forces of PC Gone Maaaaad are conspiring with feminazidom to assure that legions of bone-idle bitches can walk off with fat settlements and raise an army of mini-lesbians ect ect (cont pg 94 of the Daily Mail).

I'm sure that if anyone even asked, the employers could cast themselves as battered victims of a Monstrous Regiment of vindictively litigious succubi. "I was only trying to protect my shareholders, guv! Look at'em, they're wasting away!"
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:24 / 28.07.04
Apparently the biggest difference in income is between married women and everyone else. Women who never married have long held their own economically. So why is this? Discrimination? No. Women often avoid taking jobs demanding long hours and/or extensive travel, as these make personal childcare all but impossible.

Yes, women who haven't married have held their own economically but would you please explain to me why they are still paid less in the City of London for doing precisely the same job as their male counterparts? These are single women with no children and they are discriminated against. If the workload is the same than a woman should be paid the same. Paternity leave is important because socially it means no company has no practical reason to withold equal pay.

Sheer dogmatic repetition has pounded into our minds the notion that all groups have similar capabilities, when in fact they do not and nor do they necessarily even have the same interest in developing such capabilities

Yes. Obviously. Women accept that they haven't the capabilities of men. The problem is that the argument isn't relevant. You can't predict whether an individual man or woman will be stronger. You don't know if any of the women who have posted to this thread will ever be pregnant and you don't know if any of the men will choose to phone in sick three times a week because they miss their kids. That's why your argument sucks.

In many cases ladies CHOOSE the lower paid options for other reasons, and that is why we don't have an all-lady workforce as suggested in my first post.

BUT that's not the point of equal pay. Do you understand what equal means? It's not about choosing a low wage job, it's about having the same wage for the same work. I suggest that you are confusing your issues horribly and coming across as a misogynist because of it. Clean your argument up, confess your misogyny or explain what on earth you're talking about before I get the tire iron out. This thought experiment doesn't work little man.
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:33 / 28.07.04
BUT that's not the point of equal pay. It's not about choosing a low wage job, it's about having the same wage for the same work.

I spent far too long this afternoon browsing the gender pay equity section of the European industrial relations observatory on-line site. I even read most of this report which notes the difficulty of getting strong conclusions from the statistical data.

I'm perfectly willing, happy even (because it makes the problem more tractable), to admit that direct discrimination is the main cause of gender pay inequality. But so far it looks to me like the situation is far more complex and harder to pin down than that. I have no doubt that sexism is what drives the pay differential, but I am less convnced that the mechanism is as easy to observe as unequal pay for the same work, at least in a reasonably uncontroversial way. I realise that there are good reasons for this, since a pay increase can be the definition of a different job, but I'd appreciate people pointing me to the more explicit stuff.
 
 
Rev. Orr
22:44 / 28.07.04
Plus, of course, there is the plain, old-school sexism, now and again. I manage a small shop in a larger chain. We needed a new full-time member of staff who would have to work most of their shifts, as I do, as the only person on duty in the shop. On Monday, the owner asked me to sort through the large pile of applications and pick eight for him to interview. Almost in passing he added that I should not include any women as "This is a rough area and they wouldn't be safe, would they".

The idea that it's either safe to work here or it isn't, didn't seem to have occured to him. Because I am spineless and really need to keep my job at the moment, the three best candidates went straight onto the refect pile. I fished them out of the bin after he'd finished interviewing and toyed with the idea of letting them know why they hadn't got anywhere, but suspect that it would be a self-serving action to salve my conscience rather than do them any good.

Point being, there may be some grey areas floating around, but there are also a hell of a lot of clear cut cases as well. The job in question may well have been shit, but access to employment opportunity is an important aspect of the wider topic of 'equal pay'.
 
 
Nobody's girl
02:07 / 29.07.04
Orr Your boss had no right to dismiss female candidates on that basis. Heck, if he had fired you for causing a fuss you could've been the one walking away with a big settlement cheque. I know it's a hassle to cause a fuss over something like sexism in the workplace, particularly if your next meal is on the line, but if you don't you are actively colluding with bigotry.

I think we can see clearly one of the factors in unequal pay from Orr's story.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:45 / 29.07.04
I've been flat-out told by a few prospective employers that the only reason they aren't giving me a job, or sometimes not even calling me for an interview, is that I'm female. One guy was particularly regretful, and seemed almost to be fighting with himself--he could see I was the best candidate for the job, but couldn't bring himself to hire me.

More recently, I've been repeatedly turned away by several employment agencies on the grounds that they have "nada para chicas" (nothing for girls). Mind you, employment agencies are frequently afflicted with ninnies so maybe that doesn't count.
 
 
charrellz
18:07 / 05.08.04
Clearly the pay difference is in response to effort. Women are lazy. Do you ever see men just sitting around joking with each other, or screwing around on the internet? No. But women just want to sit around and be entertained, that's why so many are unemployed - so they can stay home and watch television. If women worked harder, maybe they would get paid more!

To answer the thread summary, "If women get paid less, then why not just employ them?" Because nothing would ever get done.



(just making sure everyone realizes I am NOT being serious. Just thought the thread needed a little sexist humor)
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:18 / 06.08.04
Yes, because thread-rot is always useful. (Could a moderator perhaps delete that post and this one please?)
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:28 / 06.08.04
I'm not sure if we're answering the initial question in this thread, why would capitalists put sexism before profits? Is there a perceived trade-off in that a sexist boss might assume a man would do a better job than a woman, increasing the likelihood of future work from the same source?
 
 
Jester
17:01 / 07.08.04
"If a woman thought she was being paid less than a man to do her job, just give her her lawsuit settlement now and she can retire."

and

"I have no doubt that sexism is what drives the pay differential, but I am less convnced that the mechanism is as easy to observe as unequal pay for the same work, at least in a reasonably uncontroversial way"


The main point, from my understanding, is precisely that it is not easy to observe. People do not (where I work, anyway ), talk about their pay packets openly, and so it is actually quite hard to detect this happening on an individual basis, unless it's patently patently obvious.

I think that the premise of the question is slightly faulty, because it is about more than economics. If an employer is going to be the type to pay a women less because of her gender, isn't there a likelihood that they are placing a lesser value on a female employee than they would on a male employee? The sexism that informs peoples decisions to pay women less is likely to pervade the company in question. Your pay is the value placed on your work by your employer, and is thus inherantly linked to their perception of your abilities. Of course, there may be some speculative, 'I can get away with paying her a few grand less because she's a woman' going on, but the extent of the statistics suggests a wider problem, doesn't it?

Anyway, it could all be settled by having employers have to have a pay equality audit.
 
 
charrellz
20:44 / 07.08.04
Our Lady of the Flamingoes - My comment was meant as satire of a sexist viewpoint. Going with Jester's comment "your pay is the value placed on your work by your employer, and is thus inherantly linked to their perception of your abilities" my post was intended to show/make fun of the views some people hold regarding women. As frightening as it sounds, I have actually heard people saying ignorant shit like my post without joking about it.

That's the whole source of the problem. There are still people in this world who honestly believe that women are just inferior to men, and thus should be payed less. The same pure capitalists that pay women less do not hire only women because they think women would destroy the business. They hire enough women to avoid legal trouble and pay them less to keep from 'losing money on a poor investment'.
 
 
Jester
07:51 / 08.08.04
Actually, it's probably a bit more ingrained than that. These days I suspect that rather than outrightly, conciously sexist outlooks, maybe employeers have just internalised the general feeling than men are more trustworthy/better in a lot of cases.
 
 
jmw
16:07 / 03.09.04
Getting back to the original question, I think it's safe to say that capitalism's emphasis on the bottom line means that capitalists take a dim view of maternity leave and job-sharing.

The solution seems to me to be paid paternity leave. If men and women's rights in the workplace are equal that would lead to a level playing field. The (sole?) right that women enjoy over men (maternity leave) contributes to the idea of women as unattractive employees. Of course, rather than pay men to take time off to look after their kids, the capitalists would probably go for the cheaper option: no leave and the right to hire and fire on a whim.
 
 
Triplets
17:37 / 03.09.04
Don't concede to these Emotional Voids, Jub! They just want to dim your Male Light!
 
  
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