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A question about belief...

 
  

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Seth
00:15 / 17.07.04
Here's a question that I've thoroughly enjoyed asking people over the last few months. It brings out very different reactions. Some people haven't understood the question, some people have done their best to answer, some people have spent ages pondering the implications of the question, some people thought it contained some interesting presuppositions, some people fudged it and didn't engage. See what you think:

If you could believe anything you want, what would you want that belief to do for you?
 
 
Unconditional Love
08:57 / 17.07.04
id want that belief to be flexible enough for me to do what ever i liked with it, so that belief would adjust it self to every given desire and lust within me.
 
 
osymandus
10:55 / 17.07.04
Nothing at all. Just as it does now , im the one that has to do anything with my faith.
 
 
---
01:06 / 18.07.04
Allow me to have better judgement.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
05:23 / 18.07.04
Remind me that no matter where I go, I am at home.

Really good question, Seth.
 
 
LykeX
11:12 / 18.07.04
I'm wondering, who are the people that you've asked this of in the past? It seems to me that this question would be quite hard to make sense of, if you haven't already been introduced to some of the "magical" ways of viewing beliefs.

Myself, I'd like my beliefs to make my life happier and more interesting, which is what I'm working on at the moment.
 
 
pythagore
14:48 / 18.07.04
id want that belief to be flexible enough for me to do what ever i liked with it, so that belief would adjust it self to every given desire and lust within me

Isn't that one of the things that most people criticise religion for? That people twist and bend their beliefs to fit their own actions?
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:13 / 18.07.04
imo religion is more a set of rules, its something you obey based on the premise of a belief or faith but doesnt actually have to have any faith what so ever or belief for that matter. yes people often critcize belief in this way because people have this notion that belief is fixed and static and some how immutable, like rules carved in stone.
belief itself is internal force manifested into consciousness through words and symbol, belief imo is a dynamic force rather than a thing (i think that makes sense), belief is a process, not fixed bondage for consciousness, again this is all very personal to me.
perhaps it has something to do with mutable and immutable belief structures or structureless belief.
 
 
Opps!!
21:01 / 18.07.04
allow me to think
 
 
Warewullf
21:12 / 18.07.04
Hrm. My beliefs stem from Chaos Magick so they're pretty adaptable as they are.

If you could believe anything you want
I do believe anything I want. That's what Chaos is. Believe in what you find useful and discard all else.

what would you want that belief to do for you?
What it already has done: brought me a sense of peace. It's brought a spirituality into my life. It's empowered me.
 
 
Seth
22:20 / 18.07.04
LykeX: I've asked a ton of people from different backgrounds. People who aren't consciously into magic are just as adequately equiped to answer it as people who think they are.

Warewulf: So what have you believed in order to attain those things? Your answer might be extremely helpful for the people who have yet to feel they have peace, spirituality and empowerment.

Anyone who's just answered with what they want for now: Which beliefs might do that for you?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:23 / 19.07.04
I don't know if I'd want to believe anything I wanted to believe... if you see what I mean. It seems rather counter-intuitive. Not to mention having the potential for considerable self-deception, and so on.

I suppose if I were to believe anything I wanted to believe, I'd want to believe that what I believed in was true. Does that make sense? I mean that, if I could believe anything, I would be refashioning my world to fit my beliefs, so I'd need to believe that whatever they were was absolutely true, and not to have to acknowledge the fact that I had chosen to believe those things.

Argh, not making any sense...
 
 
Warewullf
11:02 / 19.07.04
Seth: When I started to study Magick, it quickly became evident that I had to make a choice: either believe that Magick was real or believe it was all shite.

It became a choice of what would make me happier- living in a world where magick was real or living in a world where it wasn't. Easy choice.

From there, it opened up a whole new world to me. The spirituality came from Goddess/neopagan worship (something that really filled a gap in my life.) The empowerment and peace came from feeling like I was a part of something bigger. Of knowing (from first hand experience, rather than simply being told) that there was something more to life than what we see around us.
 
 
Seth
11:18 / 19.07.04
Kit-Cat Club: What if the chosen belief were along the lines of, "My happiness is important but I'm not the centre of the universe" and the goal of the belief is to have a happy life in which you respect others? Or, “I will define my beliefs as my current best thinking and update them in the light of whatever I learn about the world,” in which the goal is to create an internal reality that appears to the individual to be the most accurate map available to them given their life experience?

Of course, you're absolutely right: even in those examples, believing what you want to believe may well open people up to self-delusion. If any decent magical or psychological practise contains elements of rigorous self-examination, motive and ecology checking, is the self-delusion a risk of the technique of belief change or a risk inherent in the person changing the belief?

As far as believing that the new beliefs you have decided upon are true: do you believe that about your current beliefs? That they’re any more true just because they’re already present and you haven’t consciously done work to change them? For example, have you ever experienced believing something outside of consciousness, bringing that unconscious belief to the surface, then realising that it manifests as a fragment of internal dialogue that sounds exactly like your mother or father? Is that interjected belief their truth or is it your truth? My answer would be yes: currently it is both their truth and your truth in your way of seeing the world, although they may have changed it since it became interjected, and you may choose to change it yourself so that it is no longer true for you. Modifying, rejecting it, or returning it respectfully to where it came from may leave a gap that needs to be filled with something else - how do you feel about the belief modification that arises from this kind of psychic spring-cleaning?

I’m very interested in the people who have reservations about whether they would want to believe anything they had chosen to believe. As in, what motivations do they have for believing that they may not necessarily want to believe the things they choose to believe? What do they want to achieve through the belief of not wanting to believe a belief that they have chosen? At the risk of presumption, it seems to me that you want to avoid deluding yourself through choosing to believe things that may or may not accurately reflect your past or current experience (it’s harder to anticipate future experience, although you could have a meta-belief that all your beliefs must be subject to change). There’s nothing wrong with that as a motive as far as I can see. If you successfully avoided self-delusion, what positive thing would that do for you?

Is there any way of honouring that motive with a belief that acted as an internal check to other beliefs? What if we asked the question: “If I could believe anything about my current beliefs, what would I want that meta-belief to do for me?”

I hope this thread is starting to reflect the complexity of the question, and the complexity of our belief systems. It’s easy to suppose that if we start pulling at threads our whole lives could unravel. What else could you choose to believe about belief work instead of the risks? Or as well as the risks?

One last question: taking an extreme example, we’ve probably all heard miraculous stories of people recovering from fatal disease from the power of a placebo, or a self-chosen belief. Is there a danger of disempowering ourselves if we don’t believe what we want to believe? That we’ll be sidelined as passive observers of our life, resigned to live with the beliefs that we’ve unconsciously taken on and never consciously questioned or updated? Is there anything necessarily wrong with living the lives we want, as much as we’re able to live them?
 
 
Seth
11:25 / 19.07.04
Warewullf: Good answer. Was your experience of chosing those beliefs that straightforward (I want to be happy, empowered and at peace, therefore I will choose to believe X), or was it much richer and more complex (happy accidents, intuition rather than conscious planning, blind alleys, unexpected secondary gains, etc)?
 
 
Seth
11:37 / 19.07.04
While I'm at it...

Does there have to be a believer in order to believe in the process of believing? What are the implications of your answer?

Is anyone else starting to think that the word belief looks very strange in Temple forum black on green?
 
 
illmatic
12:22 / 19.07.04
Great thread mate. I've only just digested the question so I'll have a pop at that, hoping it isn't too glib: I would like the beliefs I've chosen to make me happier and increase the belief that I can acheive things. I'll come back to some of the other stuff later. Hellvua question.
 
 
Warewullf
07:25 / 20.07.04
Seth: It was much more the second way around! I wasn't at all sure where believing in magick would lead me. It did all come about through doing magick, becoming more aware of unlikely coincidences, "feeling" things etc.


Does there have to be a believer in order to believe in the process of believing? What are the implications of your answer?


If you believe in an observer-created universe then yes, there has to be a believer (or at least an observer.)

Or maybe it's simply that without a believer, the process of believing becomes moot as there is no one to (appreciate? see?) it.

"If a tree falls in the woods..." and all that.
 
 
the cat's iao
01:15 / 21.07.04
If I could choose to believe
Or not to believe
You know I would choose not to
But I can't choose


A person in whom I have respect as a magician wrote:

"M/magic(k) does not tolerate belief."

And I guess I have always found this puzzling. Because you sorta' have to believe that there's magic in order to work magic, but on the other hand, by believeing in this or that, we seem to merely close ourselves off to other possibilities even if we believe there are always other possibilities. I mean, belief has a way of closing in on us and keeping us from questioning. And in turn...

I would like to believe that I can believe in what I need to, but I don't beleive that this is always possible.

But all that aside, I'll go with the stock answer of wanting to believe in those things which are possitive and empowering--both for myself and others!
 
 
sine
03:49 / 21.07.04
Hmm...good one. I could just echo many of the sentiments and ideas posted upthread, but instead, I'll post a belief I would like to adopt rather than the belief.

I would like, with full control of my mental faculties, to utterly believe that 0 = 1 . And not in any hand-waving sense where I use concrete examples to fudge the numeric abstractions. I want to believe 0 = 1 in the purest mathematical sense, in all cases. Why? I gotta feeling that once I could really swallow that one, big progress...
 
 
Seth
07:55 / 21.07.04
the cat's iao: Given that "M/magic(k) does not tolerate belief." constitutes a belief in itself, what deeper truth do you reckon ze was tryng to communicate?

What would you like to believe about beliefs rather than that they keep you from questioning, in order that you keep questioning?
 
 
SteppersFan
12:28 / 21.07.04
If you could believe anything you want, what would you want that belief to do for you?

Why, carry me ineluctably and unstoppably through waves of joy, love, happiness, health and wealth for the whole of my long life, of course!

Plus double for the wife and kids!
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:52 / 21.07.04
self delusion is an intresting belief structure, magick can work through self delusion, as the great con trick played on self, may the farce be with you. ie doubt as a belief structure and your own faith in doubt. or the belief that your doubt is good enough to determine what is delusional and what is more realistic to you. that takes alot of belief. clinging to conscious thought forms as accurate expressions of meaning also takes a huge amount of belief, the idea that there is any meaning? requires you to believe that human beings are capable of createing a language to think in that actually has any validity in the first place, what beliefs are we taking for granted? because we can think that somehow makes all those thoughts relevant and meaningful, or just the ones we choose to censor, and does the very act of thinking require the belief that thinking is something desireable in the first place?

can any structure of thought be a belief, any singular thought hold belief? is belief a thing? a process? or is belief another aspect of self delusion, the cyclic process of thinking, the excrement of a beating heart?

chasing ghosts.
 
 
Shanghai Quasar
00:21 / 22.07.04
"I'd want it to allow me to believe anything I want."

I suspect I'm either in the first category or the last category. It's just a matter of determining which, innit?
 
 
Suffocate
03:21 / 22.07.04
I'd want it to hide the awkward mysteries in life that can distract one from being productive, while being as conducive to a happy, rational life as possible and allowing me the greatest chance at success and survival.

And allow me to have a talking monkey.
 
 
Seth
07:56 / 22.07.04
I repeat from upthread: Anyone who's just answered with what they want for now: Which beliefs might do that for you?

I'm beginning to notice a pattern in people's answers (Donald Kaufman to Susan Orleans in Adaptation: "Everyone answers Jesus or Einstein.").

can any structure of thought be a belief, any singular thought hold belief? is belief a thing? a process? or is belief another aspect of self delusion, the cyclic process of thinking, the excrement of a beating heart?

Has anyone here done any work in investigating the structure of believing, or how believing comes about? It’s fascinating how we take in data through our five senses and establish a relationship with specific experiences such that we learn a vast amount through them, the vast majority of which goes on at the unconscious level. I might be able to throw out some technique on this over the next week or so if anyone’s interested. Oh, and re-read the first sentence of this paragraph to find out whether I understand believing as a *thing* or a *process.*

The way in which we understand the world is always going to be a current best-fit theory (and that’s a best-case scenario). You could say that self-delusion is par for the course. Or you could say that uncanny insight is par for the course. Or both. Or neither.

I’m extremely interested in the cyclic process of thinking (as you call it). I (seriously) think it has something to do with guitar feedback, and I site Kawabata Makoto as ample evidence. You’ll notice that when some people go introspective they produce a high-pitched whining sound…

When I scanned through Godel, Escher, Bach I got sick of all the maths and philosophical poncing about and just wished he’d talk in terms of punk, because the guitar feedback model seemed to work just as well to me. That would have been a sure fire way to reduce a massive doorstop of a book into a thirty-page magazine – complete with tablature and cover CD – but it would have been far more fun.

chasing ghosts.

Absolutely – they’re all ghosts and illusions. Only it turns out some of those ghosts are powerful ancestor spirits. The trick is being able to recognise them, and it can be very hard to go the philosophical angle that they’re not real when you’re paralysed with fear. Make the right deal with them, however, and they’ll turn heaven and earth upside down for you.

Some of our illusions can be very real to us.

Oh, and the movie Adaptation: without being too spoilerific, it's a great example of narrative magic to effect belief change, and does a lot of what the Invisibles does in a much more focused way. I'd be interested to hear what Kaufman has to say about how the movie changed him.
 
 
SteppersFan
08:38 / 22.07.04
Oh, and re-read the first sentence of this paragraph to find out whether I understand believing as a *thing* or a *process.*

Lightweight. Belief is Enemy. :-)

(I have a range of T-shirts with the slogan "Belief is the Enemy" on them. Goes down well at lefty events. Not!)
 
 
macrophage
15:00 / 22.07.04
Beliefs like personality and ultimately realities seem like maya, it's what you do with them that counts. But also to keep up with the changes going around.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
16:07 / 22.07.04
I have avoided reading the other responses to try to avoid my opinion being less than my first response

If I COULD BELIEVE ANYTHING, i WOULD LIKE TO BELIEVE THAT ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE FOR ME!

I would like this to at least let me attempt otherwise taboo or suppressed wishes

Belief plays a huge factor and most of us will not attempt a new venture unless we BELIVE the outcome is possible or might be favourable
 
 
Joetheneophyte
16:12 / 22.07.04
having glanced through the rest of the thread it is too deep for me

I wish i believed that I could offer something new to this discussion

maybe with a little less lager in me I might come back to it
 
 
SteppersFan
16:53 / 22.07.04
# Does there have to be a believer in order to believe in
# the process of believing? What are the implications of
# your answer?

I asked Phil Hine this once in an interview. I was doing a lot of coven Wicca at the time and he said something about me clearly having a fairly committed belief in Wicca to do it. I came back with some tosh about about keeping a relativistic mind set or something. He said, well at the very least, you've got to have a fairly strong belief in yourself, that you do exist. Which implies that there's an identity behind any belief system. Or identities. Or something.

Needless to say, I didn't believe him. ;-)
 
 
Seth
22:49 / 22.07.04
Belief is Enemy.

I love that. For those that missed it, I believe that belief is the enemy. In which it is also presupposed that there is such a thing as an enemy (a belief in itself).

Of course, the point could be exactly that contradiction in terms, highlighting that even if the idea is to abolish all belief, that goal must also stem from a belief. This whole area is wonderfully recursive. Cue blistering feedback solos...

Joetheneophyte: come back in the morning. This thread is nowhere near as deep as it seems.
 
 
eye landed
02:57 / 23.07.04
If I could believe anything I wanted, I would want that belief to allow me to stop believing it.

I can, but I believe its difficult.
 
 
---
04:08 / 23.07.04
If you could believe anything you want, what would you want that belief to do for you?

I think i'd like to believe that i could have a greater understanding of balance, and why things are so often imbalanced. Why we are here going through good and bad, light and dark, clarity and confusion.

I'd like to believe that what this belief offered me was an inner sense of understanding why, and what for, when things get really bad, and why i have or haven't chosen to be here experiencing whats going on around me.

I suppose a belief that keeps me in touch with a type of awareness that i have very rarely, an awareness that allows me to feel, sense or percieve something other than what i usually do.

Maybe i should look and try harder at magick and question myself more about what magick actually means to me.

This thread is pretty amazing Seth, it's really helped me to think of things in a way i haven't done for a while now. Sort of jolted some of my awareness back into action and got me questioning what i'm doing more. There's some great stuff here because it's not all here for you to understand, the posts here kind of make you search and question for yourself, if you get what i mean.
 
 
Seth
09:32 / 23.07.04
substatique: If I could believe anything I wanted, I would want that belief to allow me to stop believing it.

I can, but I believe its difficult.


What belief will do that for you? Is it a property of the belief to allow you to stop believing, or is that just your choice in any given circumstance? I’m interested, because the flipside of that comment seems to be that you can create a belief that won’t allow you to stop believing in it.

Who is in charge? The individual or their beliefs? I guess the only answer is, “Yes.” You can often bring these things into consciousness and alter them, but there may always be more out of awareness that run your life without you realising that you have a choice.

No, The Banana Is The Best Bit: Your choice, but purely as an experiment, come up with a belief or a set of beliefs that fulfil your objective but make absolutely no reference to magic. Try answering the question as if you were someone who had no prior knowledge or experience of magic at all…
 
  

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