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Convince us not to utterly lose interest in activism

No star here laces

01:56 / 14.07.04

I used to find leftist arguments compelling. Now they seem as blinkered as the conservative ones, and with as little real engagement with the opposing view.

I used to believe that demonstrations could change something. The scale of the anti-war demos last year and the absolute indifference with which it was greeted changed that.

I used to think that the loose collection of activist groups would throw up some compelling new thinking and ways of being. But it just seems like the same tired old bullshit over and over. Empire? What a pile of shit...

Freedom would be nice. Absence of power structures would be nice. Equality would be nice. Peace would be nice. Less pollution would be nice.

So would immortality, rocket packs and gingerbread houses. They appear to be in the same class right about now.

Does any fucker actually have anything constructive to say on the subject? Is any group achieving positive results?

Lighten the gloom, enlightened ones...

02:07 / 14.07.04

The trick, Jefe, is to take the long view. Yes this sucks, and it is of no comfort, but that's the trick unless you're rich enough to buy a senator/member of parlement. Long struggles eventually lead to the reforms they set out after, but it can take decades. For instance, see how much positive change has happened in the past 100 years, or the past 50 years. Think of the freedoms we enjoy now that we wouldn't even dream of in 1904. Cold comfort indeed when we're watching our respective leaders erode those freedoms, but "vigilance is the price of freedom" and all that rot.

Trust me, I know exactly what you're feeling, but apathy solves even fewer problems than demonstrations.

pointless and uncalled for

07:17 / 14.07.04

lekvar is right, things do not change over night and it's unreasonable to expect things to change overnight.

Also, demonstrations aren't just about appealing to the authorities that you wish to sway, they're also about appealing to the apathetic and opposition.

Activism, to me at least, is founded in a number of principles, one of which is awareness. You won't get people to pay any attention by letting them continue in whatever rut of a life they have carved out for themselves. If even for amoment you have to try and get people to ask "why are these people doing what they are doing?" That way they may chose for themselves to join you.

I happily admit that I'm not the most rampant of activists but I couldn't imagine not doing it. It would basically mean to me that I had given up and that nothing was worth fighting for. I can't believe that for one moment that this is true. Even if what I campaign for never comes about in my lifetime it will still be worth fighting for, the nature of the cause doesn't change.

Finally, on a slightly selfish note, I would like to be able to die knowing that there is at least one area in my life in which I didn't fail myself.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

10:22 / 14.07.04

Fresh air and exercise?

I'm not being facetious. Did I really think that Blair would watch the millions of us marching down Whitehall and pick up the phone and go "actually George, sorry about this but I've changed my mind"? Did I think there was a secret service man noting my attendence on the march and putting a tick in a box in a folder?

You don't, or you shouldn't, do this stuff because in twenty years time you want to be in Tony (or George or whoevers) chair not listening to the people outside and selling their future for a pile of cash for yourself. You have to do it because you think it's the right thing to do, even if that means you go to your grave having not achieved anything.

So speaks the weekend activist! And I don't envy your position, because one year of being in Socialist Organiser at university soured me to the use of political discussion ("Let's get off our arses and do something!" "Right!" "Right! Who wants to put it to the vote?") Sounds to me that you're not hacked off with the doing stuff but with the talking about it. Maybe you need to consider some sort of activism-free sabatical in the near future?

20:59 / 14.07.04

Another prop to the statement that things don't change overnight. And the very fact thay they don't is (sometimes) enough for me to keep going. Simply because someone has to keep the ideals alive until such time as they are ready to be accepted by society at large. This might sound needlessly messianic (is that even the right word to use?) but I can't think of another way to express the idea.

21:26 / 14.07.04

Another thing to consider when you look back at the anti-invasion demonstrations is that Bush did acknowledge them. I remember that the day after the worldwide protest in multiple capitol cities, he specifically mentioned the demos in a press conference. This may seem a small thing, but consider that elected leaders rarely admit to opposition voices unless those voices threaten to drown out the leader's. He mentioned the dissent, therefore it was effective (to whatever small degree). Imagine how much it hurt him to say the words.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

12:17 / 15.07.04

Blair has done much the same recently, in a "I'll say I accept your right to have that opinion if it'll make you keep voting for me" kind of way.

Tryphena Absent

14:00 / 15.07.04

I couldn't imagine not doing it. It would basically mean to me that I had given up and that nothing was worth fighting for. I can't believe that for one moment that this is true

I totally agree with that. We live in a world that's basically horrible, unjust, unequal and upsetting. I'd rather not. The argument, the words that are spoken don't matter when you think about what's actually happening, how many people are destroyed by it and how utterly useless you feel. Sometimes there's nothing that you can do except demonstrate.

On the flip side you should probably only demonstrate if you enjoy it.

Tryphena Absent

14:03 / 15.07.04

I've also never believed that demos change anything- I grew up watching strikes get broken and demonstrations fall. It's more to reassure myself that there are other people who believe in the same things as me and don't just want to watch the world explode. I don't believe in mass suicide or murder, that's pretty much what capitalism means to me.

No star here laces

00:49 / 16.07.04

That's all fair enough on the practical side.

On the theoretical one, hello? Is there anybody out there?

Because I do personally feel that demos are better when they are for something as well as against something....

02:01 / 16.07.04

That's a fairly common complaint, Jefe, and sometimes a legit one. "y'all complain a lot, but we don't hear you offering any suggestions."

But there are a lot of people making sugestions, and demonstrating for things, but everybody tells us to quit making a fuss, play along with the system. In the U.S., whatever you think of him, Ralph Nader is pushing for the universal health coverage that every other developed nation seems to enjoy. Look at the brush HE'S been painted with. During the 2000 election he filled stadiums and hall to capacity iwith people demonstrating FOR something.

We're out there, and we're waiting for you to join us.

No star here laces

02:47 / 16.07.04

Aaargh. I knew this was a bad idea.

Dude, listen I've been involved in this shit for years, sometimes very actively, sometimes more theoretically. I don't do anything right now, partly because I currently live in Singapore.

The question I've got is basically that for years there has been this rhetoric around "the movement" that ideas are coalescing out of the chaos, that activism is a lifestyle as well as a philosophy, that there is a vibrant melting pot of thinking going on.

So what I want to know is: where are the proper, grown-up, responsible ideas as to:

a) get rid of capitalism

and

b) replace it with something better

Now b is a tricky one and is going to take a while. But please god, can somebody demonstrate something new and interesting with respect to a?

Beyond fucking puppet shows, bodies on the street and half-baked crap like Fahrenheit 911, that is.

No star here laces

02:50 / 16.07.04

And with all due respect to Ralph Nader, don't you feel that firstly his politics amounts to sticking a plaster on a bullet-wound, and secondly that he hasn't been "painted with a brush" he's painted himself with the fucking brush, and what he's painted says "Niche sppeal" in huge-ass letters.

04:27 / 16.07.04

Regarding Nader, that's a whole different thread. I merely brought him up as someone being proactive.

Regarding theory, yes, we're currently waiting, I think, for our Marx, Engels, Smith, Wishaupt, Malcom X, King Jr.

There's some interesting theory in anarchist circles, but you have to wade through the petty bickering and factionalism.

I think the dust is still settling from the big Internet (Biotech/Manufacturing/Offshoring/Pharmaceutical) push of the late 90's, and once someone gets hir head around what it means for society THEN we'll be in for some theory. Think Temporary Autonomous Zone based on sociobiology instead of poetry. The emergence of the European Union is enough to give all but the staunchest demogogues a "wait and see what happens" attitude.

Social/political theory is based on observing the past and drawing conclusions. In the current state of upheval the best we're able to do is modify existing theory or write science fiction.

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:09 / 16.07.04

I dunno, Jefe - I'd really need to know about your specific problems with the many, many critiques of capitalism that've already been written (beyond comments like "what a crock of shit") before I could offer any alternatives, y'know?

22:12 / 16.07.04

The problem lies in the ignorance of the general populace - both the ignorance of the common ultra-conservative who dismisses all opinions other than his own as nonsensical, and the ignorance of the common college student-liberal, who sees activism as "hip" - as much a style as a method for change. Before anything is to be changed, we need to combat both forms of ignorance... the latter so that we can once again devise effective methods of acheiving change, and the former so that those methods have at least a slightly higher chance than a snowball in hell's of being effective. I honestly believe that it's been almost 80 years since the last true and effective liberal, intellectual (as in - among intellectuals) movement on this country. Many will point to the 60s, but I refuse to see that as an entirely intellectual movement. Sure the hippies were headed in the right direction, but their thinking was all wrong. Drugs were just as important to them as peace and equality.

00:39 / 17.07.04

When I think about it, good theory comes from the point of conflict. Marx/Engels came at the point that the Industrial Revolution was creating a larger "blue collar" middle class in the cities. Labor Unions emerged from this same moment. Civil Rights emerged from the struggles of women and minorities.

At first glance the struggle government recognition for gay/lesbian marriage would be the logical point of conflict here, perhaps buttressed by progress in the fields of biology, specifically behavioral biology. Unfortunately this conflict has the potential to be grounded entirely in terms of Good versus Evil, Secular Humanism versus Yahweh, which will go nowhere quickly.

Another good emergence point for new theory will be Iraq. OK, so we've kicked the hornet's nest, now what happens? I mean, think of the potential (albeit farfetched) for Islamist Socialism, Islamic Humanism, who knows? Yeah, I know as well as anyone that at best we'll have Turkey again, a democracy held/millitocracy, but let the imagination soar for a moment.

However, the best I can offer you RIGHT NOW is libertarian thinktanks or Protastant Atavism.

Tryphena Absent

01:31 / 17.07.04

Because I do personally feel that demos are better when they are for something as well as against something....

Well the problem with that is that none of us really agree or feel passionate enough to mobilise for something. Easier to get people to react against the wrong policy because you don't need a unified reason, all that disparate logic can fly around and be ignored.

Are you asking for some theory to believe in or something practical and good to support? It seems to me that there's oodles of theory out there but no one can translate it in to a working policy (simply because it's not workable on a big scale) thus no real activism. Is that what you're saying or am I misinterpreting you?

The problem with engaging with the opposition is that, well, you turn in to Jack Straw.

15:12 / 17.07.04

"Well the problem with that is that none of us really agree or feel passionate enough to mobilise for something. Easier to get people to react against the wrong policy because you don't need a unified reason, all that disparate logic can fly around and be ignored."

The single most common problem of every liberal/progressive movement since the dawning of time - factionism.