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We3 #2

 
  

Page: 1(2)3

 
 
Aertho
20:00 / 28.10.04
kovacs = 1
We3 = 0

?
 
 
Professor Silly
20:10 / 28.10.04
I can't help myself--I've had to show all my co-workers (young tattoo artists) each issue so far--and they all are forced to admit brilliance on the part of the artist.

Rarely does a comic book get me to vocalize--seeing Bandit's fate brought out a loud "Dag Nabbit It!*" despite the presence of complete strangers.

When's #3 come out?



* yes, lots of Warner Bros. cartoons growing up....
 
 
FinderWolf
20:11 / 28.10.04
What's the other movie/story besides Watership Down that this is inspired by? I feel like it's something called My Greatest Adventure, but that's the old Doom Patrol series...
 
 
The Natural Way
20:18 / 28.10.04
I think the emotion's supposed to be pretty basic and raw, kovacs. This isn't a comic concerned with plotting, except in the most basic way. C'mon, how many times have you heard this story? I don't have to think about the narrative - I learnt what I need to know about it when I was 3 or something - it just plays itself on automatic in my head and hits all the right emotional beats...because I let it. Watership Down/The Incredible Journey/a million others have the toddler in me by the balls, so I'm free to soak in the art. And that's what We3's about, after all. It's a really, really visual project, and, yeah, blood, but also, WOW! LOOK AT THAT FUCKING DOG GUNNING THROUGH THAT CAR!. Fucking breathtaking.

This isn't a comic for people who secretly like books.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
20:54 / 28.10.04
This isn't a comic for people who secretly like books.

WEDDING ST!NNK

what barbaric world have I stumbled into where "secret liker of books" is meant as a snide insult! Yes I like books -- quite openly. That doesn't mean I expect all comics to be like "books" (I assume you mean "novels" as comics could quite easily be classed as books anyway) but stuff like interesting character that grows richer with each episode, and plot that seems to advance from the end of issue #1 to the end of issue #2, are not effete facets of prose literature. They are equally common in effective action movies, for instance. I would think they were key traits in oral storytelling. I've certainly encountered character development and plot that seems to advance act by act in comics.

You are arguing that we (I) should try to experience We3 on a visceral, instinctual level -- perhaps as if I was a semi-intelligent ex-domestic military animal myself. Well, I can see that point and it's got some legs to it: we should read We3 as though we were Bandit, just grooving on the contrasts between pastoral peace and cut-up slicing, letting the chemical reactions in our body substitute for any more cerebral analysis. That's a valid and interesting way of proposing we experience this particular comic, so in a way I hope you are saying that.

However, the thread for We3 #1 was not on the level of this:

C PAGE 5. 2 HURT ??? 1 RUN

!!! 3 BE GON BAD CAT

GUD ART !!! VINCE DO GUD


: so maybe I do have some point when I say this issue doesn't support the same kind of close, "human-intellect" reading, beside my point that it doesn't really add anything to my understanding of the story or characters.

Let's not forget by the way that Watership Down is actually a pretty complex literary novel, with a whole background religion and language behind it as well as plot and characterisation a great deal more complex than We3 #2. It's not really at all similar to this comic except that this issue has some rabbits in it for 3 pages.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:07 / 28.10.04
I don't know, K. Doesn't this focus to a certain extent on the confused nature of the bunny, the cat and the dog's loyalties ? Ie, they wipe out the government soldiers without a second thought, when presumably they've been specifically trained not to do that - being military weapons with a certain amount of independant initiative ( otherwise why haven't they just been switched off yet, ) it would potentially be a bit inconvenient if they hadn't been anyway - and yet they seem to worry a lot ( well ok the cat doesn't, but then you can't trust those things at the best of times, ) when they slice up a civilian, even a civilian who's packing a shotgun.

Why is that ? What's going on here ? Who's pulling the strings ? These are questions I feel you're choosing to ignore because... because you're just jealous, because you're jealous of George, and that nice review he got from The Washington Post.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:58 / 28.10.04
Unlikely as it sounds, I actually got a better review than that from the Washington Post myself this year -- "realistic and relevant" is approving but not all that glowing, and from the cover it seems as though the write-up could refer to Vertigo as an imprint, rather than We3. I only respond to this point because it would ordinarily be so implausible that I could possibly "compete" on the top-trumps terms of Washington Post reviews. I am entirely happy to accept that Morrison's creative output makes me and anything I've ever produced look Kandorian.


Ie, they wipe out the government soldiers without a second thought, when presumably they've been specifically trained not to do that


"They're trained to attack if THREATENED in ANY way."


yet they seem to worry a lot ( well ok the cat doesn't, but then you can't trust those things at the best of times, ) when they slice up a civilian, even a civilian who's packing a shotgun.


OK, so the cat doesn't... the rabbit doesn't, because the rabbit is sitting there "tharn" (Watership Down!) and shellshocked burbling that they're xxxt!nks. (I wonder if the cat's liking for the hiss "SST!NNK" is not just a ref to Morrison's "POP MAG!C" but a trace-memory of her name, Tink?)

That leaves Bandit. So, yeah, Bandit seems to worry a lot, and that's a form of characterisation. Bandit is interesting in his increasing sense of conscience and the dynamic of leadership he seems to want to exercise: he tells Pirate to forget the broken tail, then actually orders Tinker to "OBEY", though he breaks off this command as soon as there's a threat to We3 from outside, and his priority immediately becomes to protect Tinker from the rats.

His feeling of duty (rescue the injured man...misplaced, maybe a residue of pre-programmed responsibility rather than rationality, as it was clearly useless) and demonstration of what I suppose could be called a canine superego (the internal voice of praise and punishment -- "GUD DOG. HELP MAN", seeking approval and reassurance from somewhere in himself, leading to "BAD DOG" presumably because he allowed Pirate to be injured, rather than because he slaughtered the man with the shotgun) is perhaps the single most interesting aspect of this issue, apart from the fightscene storytelling and the visuals.

There's also the surprising interjection from Pirate, trying to make truce between the cat and dog -- "WE3 FRIEND" -- unexpected because Pirate's motivation usually seems to be so direct and unsubtle.

I'd say that we already knew Bandit was a bit neurotic and conscientious though, and that Tinker was an awkward, unpredictable renegade, so that moment where Pirate anxiously intervenes like a kid with an arguing mum and dad is the only dialogue that adds to our understanding of the animals' basic personality.
 
 
Raw Norton
23:33 / 28.10.04
Great discussion of this issue; this is why I check Barbelith on Thursdays.

I want to buy a copy of this series and give it out to everyone I know with a halfway sophisticated appreciation of the medium of comic books and storytelling techniques, like McCartney giving out copies of Pet Sounds to all his buds.

I don't think it's been identified yet: the other movie (and Young Adults-lit novel) this is remniscent of would be "The Incredible Journey." Two dogs and a cat travel hundreds of miles on instinct alone to be with their vacationing human family, or something.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:04 / 29.10.04
I don't think it's been identified yet: the other movie (and Young Adults-lit novel) this is remniscent of would be "The Incredible Journey." Two dogs and a cat travel hundreds of miles on instinct alone to be with their vacationing human family, or something.


I think it's been identified alright...I'm sure I saw it in the We3 #1 thread, but Morrison was claiming this influence some time back.

NRAMA: Along the line of influence you mentioned, some have suggested that We3 is a nod/update of The Incredible Journey - the Disney films with two dogs and a cat trying to find their way home, made in 1963 and again in ’93. Did you see the original movie as a kid?

GM: Oh yeah, I love that one. The bit at the end where old Bodger comes limping over the hill after all hope has gone...The remake wasn't as good - I don't like all that stuff with Hollywood stars doing animal voices - the jaws moving and gnawing in this unconvincing way while Mathew Broderick argues with Michael J. Fox and Whoopi Goldberg over a bone.

But yeah, things like that and The Plague Dogs, Watership Down, The Rats of NIMH, Chicken Run or whatever. Anything to do with innocent, misunderstood animals on the run from vicious human bastards


Anyway, I have identified a panel where I thought the art might be stumbling: on the bridge where Bandit chews the rat in his teeth. Fortunately, this wasn't a sign of decline, but at the time it made me momentarily lose my faith in Quitely: I don't like it as a panel at all. It doesn't feel appropriate to have that much gory detail spurting out in an action panel, as though it's frozen mid-bite. The double-spread pp.2-3 works much better, because it's blurred. The Bandit-biting panel overly fetishises the precision of blood and guts, like the artwork of a talented teenager trying to shock, rather than conveying what that moment would actually look like -- it wouldn't look like that in real life at real speed, with the curls of intestines spiralling out clearly and blood bursting like a sponge, with droplets radiating, perfectly-formed. It looks like it's happening in zero-gravity. It's sacrificing the "truth" of the moment to Quitely's desire to draw every single globule and every splinter of bone.
 
 
alexsheers
09:49 / 29.10.04
You're right about the zero gravity violence, but I don't think it's out of keeping with the tone of the story. My take on this was to show that the dog's head [the only natural part of it on show] is capable of the same destructive violence as the cyber-augmented bits of the animals.

In any case, call me sick, but I've wanted to see what Quitely was capable of since The Authority 'blurring' debacle. This is like the 2020 Visions jumper extended for a whole comic.

What's everyone's take on the cat's 'SSST!NK' exclamations? I started to think this was Morrison's cat equivalent of 'Fuck you' ['Fuck Man', 'Fuck Boss' etc.].

And is the cat's suit malfunctioning ['SST!NK CLAW!'] as well as the rabbit's?
 
 
Krug
10:17 / 29.10.04
Now that I've read all posts right after closing the comic, I'm just barely out of shock.

That's all I have to say really, I have never been so completely silenced and stunned into a goosebumpy silence by a comic's art.

It's really very disturbing all that blood and flesh. I'm not crying yet (and I wonder if I will) but I'm living in an hour of astonishment.

I don't really care about plot progression and the writing anymore.

3's out in Jan I hear.

Sonuvaho!
 
 
miss wonderstarr
10:21 / 29.10.04
A couple more things. I am almost embarrassed to mention them, as I always feel these may be obvious plot points I missed, but then I was also wary about bringing up that "release code" ambiguity in #1 and apparently I wasn't just being dumb about it.

When Tinker complains "CLAW B GON" she presumably means her claw-missiles have stopped working. But in the previous panel we see that she's fired one into the bridge of a copter pilot's nose. So what's up with her peering in irritation at the weapon and saying it's "gone"? Has she used up all the flechettes? (She's still got NO CLAW for the rat attack.)

I don't "get" what happens with Pirate and the train. The rabbit jumps towards it, leaps over the top of the roof and says "UH-OH". Then the train blows up. Or the bridge. Or both.

Did Pirate explode the train somehow?
 
 
The Natural Way
10:54 / 29.10.04
I'm not sure about the cat's "claws". Could mean projectiles, could just mean that one of his claws is broken. We'll see.

And, yes, you understood me correctly. That's the one.

Have I mentioned just how much I love that panel with Bandit leaping at the guy while Tinker takes out his dog. Made me want to punch the air it did.
 
 
The Natural Way
10:55 / 29.10.04
I think Pirate takes out the train when he lands on it. That bit should have been clearer, p'raps.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
10:57 / 29.10.04
I assumed either Tinker or Bandit had left a bomb on the bridge then ducked under the tracks as the train went over, but looking back at the relevant panels, I now realise I was wrong, as you can clearly see the landmines falling out of Pirate's rear as he hops up the tracks. Hence perhaps " Uh-oh, " the bombs being dropped because his tail's malfunctioning ?

Unlikely as it sounds, I actually got a better review than that from the Washington Post this year

Yeah, I rather suspected that.

I'm not sure if " relevant and realistic " applies to the Vertigo imprint as a whole though, otherwise they'd presumably be using it on all their titles, but I agree, it does seem to be damning We3 with faint praise slightly. If that's the *best* line they could pull out of the review, it does make you wonder what else it might have said.

That said though, and while I'm not sure it matters, this series does seem to have more *crossover potential* as far as a non-comics audience goes than anything else has in years. And it looks to have been a huge hit already - going into the shop at lunchtime yesterday, I got the last copy they had, when it had only been out for a couple of hours.

Oh yeah, and the cat ran out of ammo, having used it's last shot to murder the pilot.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:15 / 29.10.04
It has to be said, then... again, unfortunately, that We3's storytelling is not always effective. This is surprising because it's so geared towards showing action in startling, crystal detail; it is, as with #1, a bit of a disappointment that certain key events simply don't work on the first reading, and that you have to go back and study a panel, even ask other people on an internet board, to actually find out what the hell happened. For a comic that's all about clear, direct action and visuals, rather than dense levels of meaning, I think that's at least a minor failing.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:24 / 29.10.04
There are bombs all over the bridge just in front of the train, which have been left by Pirate (as have the green clouds of poison gas). Bombs and poison gas are what we've been told Pirate does in issue #1. He's not a great tactician, the rabbit - presumably the bombs are there to take out the rats, which relies on Tinker and Bandit getting out of the way and across the bridge before they blow...

If you look at how Tinker uses the flying blades initially, they go all over the place, shredding everybody and everything in the vicinity. Then we have the guy in the helicopter saying "at least we're safe here", Tinker takes aim, and helicopter guy gets one blade in the forehead... But just one. Why doesn't the other guy, or the whole chopper, get shredded too? Because Tinker can't fire any more blades (whether the 'claw' is out of ammo or just malfunctioning doesn't really matter). Hence, when the rats attack, Tinker can't fire the blades in defense and needs Bandit's help, which is quite touching really given their earlier fight...

I don't think there are any storytelling problems in this issue.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
13:49 / 29.10.04
I agree. All the relevant data is in the panel. You can't really fault the artist for following the visual laws and rules he made up himself. The rhythm and gutter space kind of mandated that the mines would already be firmly stuck in the tracks at that shot. But you can definitely see them.
 
 
DaveBCooper
14:08 / 29.10.04
I wasn’t quite so sure about the bridge collapsing, whether the rats had deliberately loosened some bolts or whatever, but I’d agree with Kovacs that (as with the last year or so of NXM) the occasional lack of clarity does make it a bit harder to feel the flow of the story. That said, the art’s extremely good, isn’t it ? And for what might be termed a ‘decompressed’ comic, it’s not that quick a read, which is good to my mind; it’s not necessarily the readers waiting for the trade that’s a bad development in comics, but the writers wRiting for the trade.

But I digress: We3 has stuff you can pore over, and loads of little panels and all that kind of thing, putting me rather in mind of something like Hard Boiled.

One art detail which I rather like – and which I thought might be the case at the start of issue 1, but less so as that issue went on – is the way we don’t very often see a full-on face shot of a human outside of the lab. The opening of #1, if memory serves, had a bit of that, and I don’t think we see a proper face for the father or son at the end, or even really of the soldiers at the start of, #2. It reminds me of how Merkel was portrayed in Dark Knight and Batman Year One, or that Twilight Zone episode with the bloke who’s had plastic surgery and is in bandages for most of the episode. Anyway, has a neat effect of dehumanising the threats to the animals, and making the reader feel more of an affinity for them, I think, which is clever (though I realise, reading this thread, I’m nowhere near as close to the empathy other people are feeling, as I wasn’t even in the same postal code as crying. Must be desensitised or something).

I don’t think we’re necessarily seeing anything entirely groundbreaking in storytelling terms here – the slow-motion effect of multiple panels has been used a lot before now, and the ‘character moving outside the panels’ bit has been done in Animal Man and the Invisibles, for example – but it’s an interesting read, I think, and the concept behind it is straightforward and solid. I just hope that, unlike the aforementioned NXM, and Seaguy alike, the final part of it doesn’t suffer from too much of a sense of ‘missing story details’ or anything like that. Maybe I’m schizophrenic or something, but I think a three issue series should lend itself to the classic three-act story structure, and now we’ve had acts one and two, I hope we can see a satisfactory resolution to the tale; there are various narrative strands which need to be tied up to make it feel like a complete read, and I’d rather not have another instance of a Grant-scripted series ending with me reading the final issue and thinking ‘how’re they going to tie all this up in just a few pages ? … oh, they’re not. Or maybe my copy’s missing some pages. I’d better look on Barbelith to see what other people think happened’.

And yes, what a lovely cover – look at the texture on the bean bag and carpet. Very nicely done. Is it computer-work like Brian Bolland does for his covers, does anyone know ? Whatever, it’s really well done.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:19 / 29.10.04
>> GUD ART !!! VINCE DO GUD



I thought the cat had run out of spikey things. Think if how many she used up escaping from the base. I didn't see any indication that her claw got damaged at any point, like the rabbit's tail did.

It's heartbreaking to me how the dog tries to save the man after the bridge explosion, and also creepy since the dog has just moved down countless men in the past few days. But his instinctive desire to help men kicks in.

I loved FQ's amazing panel layouts and designs.

And the gov't must be REALLLYY pissed at the girl who let the animals escape. I sense she's getting locked up for life or killed once this is over.
 
 
goodkingwenceslaus
14:22 / 29.10.04
Kovacs and everyone else are right, of course, to emphasize the fact that this plot is not "developing"--but that's one of the most effective aspects of the series for me, so far. If there's no "home" (no destination), then there's no itinerary either.

I do think that there's a lot to think about in the "gud dog", "bad dog" transition--and in all of these sparse, opaque interchanges between the protagonists... I've written about it here and here...

Dave
 
 
FinderWolf
14:27 / 29.10.04
AND THAT FUCKING MASTIFF AT THE END!!!

It seems to be just too big and massive (massive mastiff, har har) for the panel...and the coloring accentuates the sudden shift to an even darker tone. Right fucking on.

I also liked the dog's attempt to explain its concept of "home." Very touching.
 
 
diz
14:51 / 29.10.04
Anyway, I have identified a panel where I thought the art might be stumbling: on the bridge where Bandit chews the rat in his teeth. Fortunately, this wasn't a sign of decline, but at the time it made me momentarily lose my faith in Quitely: I don't like it as a panel at all. It doesn't feel appropriate to have that much gory detail spurting out in an action panel, as though it's frozen mid-bite. The double-spread pp.2-3 works much better, because it's blurred. The Bandit-biting panel overly fetishises the precision of blood and guts, like the artwork of a talented teenager trying to shock, rather than conveying what that moment would actually look like -- it wouldn't look like that in real life at real speed, with the curls of intestines spiralling out clearly and blood bursting like a sponge, with droplets radiating, perfectly-formed. It looks like it's happening in zero-gravity. It's sacrificing the "truth" of the moment to Quitely's desire to draw every single globule and every splinter of bone.

i think you've entirely missed the point, unless i've totally misunderstood Quitely here, in which case i may have entirely missed the point. as i see it, the action scenes are supposed to look suspended in time. that's the entire point. he's not approaching things in such a way as to make them look real, he breaks down complex actions into series of individual snapshots, each of which hangs in place like it's suspended in liquid or something. none of the individual panels are really meant to capture motion - it's the layout that drives the sense of motion while the individual frames are preternaturally still.
 
 
alexsheers
15:27 / 29.10.04
And it's not Quitely's desire to capture every nuance of the violence, it's Morrison's.

AND OURS!
 
 
SiliconDream
15:36 / 29.10.04
And Dr. Trendle's already made the point that the animals have accelerated perceptions. This close-up on Bandit's almost-POV drives that home. It looks like slow motion because it is slow motion to Bandit. Compared to death from chaingun bullets or guided missiles, crunching a rat in his jaws is downright leisurely.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
15:37 / 29.10.04
Loved the different fighting techniques - the way Pirate was shitting bombs, Bandit's bounding straight at people, Tinker slicing up, ney playing with the soldiers...

I wanted to cry when Pirate got hit, exactly like I cried when I saw Plague dogs as a kid. I still do.

Bandit's confused, but direct homing instinct (the way we don't even really know where home is, or if they're in the right direction..

Tinker's nihilism.

The way they're such pro-active little buggers.

The. Fucking. Art.

Really kovacs, I respect your desire not to gush, but it really sounds like you're trying to have a problem wit this comic.
 
 
Sunny
15:42 / 29.10.04
what do you think? hell yeah, I love this comic. do you think that they kind of resemble those a.i. fake dog or cat robot things that sony makes, aibo I think is what they're called. that cat is so cool. got spooked by We4, a visual image in a comic gave me the creeps, theres a first.

I liked that panel too where the dog is jumping at the hunter and right when he turns around and sees it he says "stop" cause it goes with the action in the current panel as well as the previous.
 
 
Krug
15:49 / 29.10.04
What a wonderful year for comics.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
16:15 / 29.10.04
Yes, it has been good, hasn't it ?
 
 
Sunny
17:03 / 29.10.04
indeed.
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:42 / 29.10.04
Great issue...

that bit with the Bridge was all about Pirate's Land Minds. Earlier you see him dropping his Rabbit Pellits all over the ground just before the soilderts appear and get blown to bits.

It seemed to me that he was dropping his land mines o cover WE3's escape from the rats... allong with that assumption is the thought that the other 2 can either avoid the land mins or emit a sort of canselation signal that keeps them from exploding when trampled upon by WE1 & WE2.

I thought his "Uh-Oh" was in relation to a speeding train that was faster than either W1 or 2 and would've squashed tham both if not for the "dumb-luck" of the train tripping all of those mines at once.

It also seemed appropiate that both Bandit & Pirate would have Pack instincts. Hence Pirate's "WE3 friends" coment. as well as Bandits insistance on Tinker Obeying. Bandit is the leader of the pack and wouldn't understand rebellion, for a dog there's either top dog or bottom.

Of course Tinker, being a differnt breed, has no real understanding of pack dynamic & it shows.

I figure Tinker ran out of blade and is just used to being reloaded by techs so has no real experience of ever running out of blade. BTW that panel of a soldier's fingernail being split was all Aoooowwwwwwww!!! The eye piercing was pretty instant death (like that girl who was shot with a pepper ball after the world series... in the eye; dead).

Also loved that kids "it could be an alien!" comment. Reminds me of Disney's the cat from outerspace amongst others. Felt truely sad for that hunter's dog, who abviously didn't want to be there but had no choice; was protecting its own pack as was Bandit... what a quandry.
 
 
louisemichel
08:08 / 30.10.04
Sorry if I sound a little fanboyish, but this issue is pure genius.
The "run rabbit run" stuck in my head for a few hours.
And for that, thanks to George and Vince.
Even if George cancelled his London appearance.
Bastard.
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
12:04 / 30.10.04
Personally, I love the idea of a pair of Glaswegians taking the Americans on at their own game and winning. I've heard so many people say "Nothing ever happens in Scotland", and this title shows what a load of pish that is.
 
 
Planet B
17:19 / 30.10.04
I can see what Kovacs is saying though I don't necessarily agree. I think the visual storytelling is amazing (even if a panel or two are difficult to parse). I just kept turning each page, looking at every mini-panel, exclaiming "holy fucking shit." It's a visceral read and definitely affected me that way.

F-ing brilliant.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
14:24 / 31.10.04
I'm not hating this comic, just debating it. All the responses to my comments have interested me.
 
  

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