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Skeleton Camera
17:32 / 12.07.04
"'Sigil' as a word is out of date. All this magic stuff needs new terminology because it's not what people are being told it is at all. It's not all this wearying symbolic misdirection that's being dragged up from the Victorian Age, when no-one was allowed to talk plainly and everything was in coy poetic code. The world's at a crisis point and it's time to stop bullshitting around with Qabalah and Thelema and Chaos and Information and all the rest of the metaphoric smoke and mirrors designed to make the rubes think magicians are 'special' people with special powers. It's not like that. Everyone does magic all the time in different ways. 'Life' plus 'significance' = magic."

AMEN to that!
 
 
Joetheneophyte
17:47 / 12.07.04
I've only just finished glancing through it!

Coincedence! or Magick :-)


Anyway, what he had to say about Hyper-Sigils was interesting considering Seamus' excellent post about this very matter on this board (Narrative Magick) and from private correspondence between Seamus and myself


Grant sounds like he has had a hard time

again, from Seamus and my own experience, Narrative Magick and crisis points seem to go hand in hand, they maybe hearty fuel for creative fire

Good Luck Grant.....I only ever understand 20% of what you write but I enjoy it nonetheless

and Seamus....thanks again for all your help and time
 
 
Skeleton Camera
17:55 / 12.07.04
And equally eerie, I was just about to addend the original post! (As I do now). HAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

Anyway. It does seem hypersigils and crises go hand-in-hand. It's creating 'another' reality for yourself while your previous, accepted reality crumbles. Depending on the hypersigil's power it can completely transform your life or just allow you some rest-time to reassemble what was shaken up.

That being said, the addenda. Per Grant's interview and his discussions of magic, THIS IS CHAOS. THIS IS WHAT CHAOS MAGIC SHOULD HAVE - OR PERHAPS JUST DID - BECOME. The new paradigm is no paradigm. Walk out your door and look at the moon. That simple. Everything is magical, everything is itself, everything just IS. That's the biggest magic I've ever experienced.
I suppose it's akin to current divisions between "religion" and "spirituality." If a religious framework lets you achieve a spiritual awareness, keep it up! If not, find something else. Same goes for old-school Occultism, new-school anti-Occultism, and the blur and giggle behind it all. What works for you?

Hard to express this stuff; it's a feeling more than an intellectual idea. But the recognition of holism, of fluidity, is the core and what makes it so exciting.
 
 
LVX23
19:36 / 12.07.04
Would someone post the link to this interview, please?

thx
 
 
LVX23
19:40 / 12.07.04
I think all of these frameworks and systems are paths back to this inate sense of magick being everywhere. In a sense they teach us how to become children again, in awe of the wonder of nature, seeing meaning and pattern in everything. To my mind it's like, on some deep level, we're longing to be the simple, connected animals we once were. The Faustian bargain of our Fall has brought with it a lot of difficulties. The verdict's still out, IMHO, as to whether we are any better off than when we were in the trees...
 
 
Joetheneophyte
19:49 / 12.07.04
the link is on the 'comics' thread on Barbelith

sorry I cannot post the link but I have had too much lager and cannot remember how to do it

Sorry


hope that works, let me know if you get onto it


Joe
 
 
Joetheneophyte
19:51 / 12.07.04
sorry I meant to say the comics forum

go to Underground and look for Comics and the link will be there
 
 
Joetheneophyte
19:54 / 12.07.04
http://www.popimage.com/
 
 
+#'s, - names
04:01 / 13.07.04
straight to the column
 
 
illmatic
10:07 / 13.07.04
There really are no villains in Seaguy, no conspiracies, just expediencies

Reminds me of modern politcs and Tony Blair.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:54 / 13.07.04
'Sigil' as a word is out of date.

I'd go further than that myself, but possibly not for the same reasons as Grant.

All this magic stuff needs new terminology because it's not what people are being told it is at all. It's not all this wearying symbolic misdirection that's being dragged up from the Victorian Age, when no-one was allowed to talk plainly and everything was in coy poetic code.

I think I agree with this in principle, but I'd hesitate a bit over the need for the new terminology. It's hard to gauge exactly what he's suggesting and where he would consider taking it though. Certainly, I think that the curse of Victoriana still blights magical discourse horrifically, even something that pitches itself as post-modern and futurist – such as chaos magic – still has the tendency to fall back on 19th century-style scripts, frameworks of operation, and conceptual models.

In the western trad at any rate, I think some fairly straightforward concepts such as the Quabalistic Tree of Life as a model of reality, and functional "psychic technology" such as the LBRP and the Middle Pillar probably are obfuscated by what GM is referring to as "coy poetic code".

I think that's what he was getting at by dissing Alan Moore's 'Promethea' awhile back. Myself, I'd rate Promethea as one of the best books in print for getting an understanding of western Quabbala. But it does tend to portray the various Sephiroth as astral holiday resorts that only special accomplished magicians get to journey to when they've been really good, as opposed to integral components of reality.

The Abyss isn't something that you cross once as a special magical initiation, its a part of our reality. It's the broken bit. When your girlfriend leaves you, when your pet budgie dies when your a kid, when your experience of the world is totally swamped in desolation and everything has turned to dust, that is an experience of The Abyss. In the same sense that Netzach is something you experience whenever the world becomes alive with love and beautiful triumph, and Geburah is something you experience when you really want to kick somebody's fucking head in. The Tree of Life is a map of reality, but more like a cross section of the body of the universe, than a tube map showing destinations you can travel to. If that makes any sense.

On the new terminology front though, I'm not sure how far I'd agree. I think you could easily veer into what I call "dark matter accumulator rod versus duppy stick" territory, where the new terminology just ends up being a bunch of pseudo-scientific jargon as inaccurate as the Victoriana, and with the potential to start sounding very dated very quickly.

Another point I'd make is that many of the strange and seemingly outdated terminology that you might find in systems such as Quabala, Tantra or Vodon, are used to describe and differentiate extremely sophisticated concepts. So there's a massive risk of losing a lot of absolutely integral ideas if you try to append new terminology to something you may have an incomplete understanding of – which is always possible no matter who you are.

You can end up with a dumbed down baby talk version of something that actually has a lot more depth and is far more interesting and sophisticated. The recent thread on here that happily conflated the wildly different concepts of "Kundalini" and "Chi" into an amorphous new age idea of "energy" is a prime example of this sort of process in operation. I get the point Grant is making, and broadly agree with it, but working out new terminology is a fucking minefield at the same time.

The world's at a crisis point and it's time to stop bullshitting around with Qabalah and Thelema and Chaos and Information and all the rest of the metaphoric smoke and mirrors designed to make the rubes think magicians are 'special' people with special powers.

I strongly agree and strongly disagree with that statement at the same time! The first bit is exactly where my thinking is at. We are living at a crisis point and there is no time to be fucking about with this dilletante shit. No time for magic as a parlour game. No time for magic as an intellectual diversion or esoteric crossword puzzle. Get it working. Use it to make the world better. In whichever way you feel is most appropriate. Cut away the bullshit and use the magic to actually do something.

My thinking probably departs from Grant's on the second point though. I wouldn't go as far to say that magicians are "special people with special powers" but I would argue that the job of magician, as I would define it, involves developing a specific specialised skillset that marks it as a profession, more akin to doctor, lawyer, or maybe less glamourously, plumber or electrician. That's not to say that everyone won't benefit from learning basic first aid, becoming aware of their legal rights, learning how to fix a leaking tap or wire up a plug. But I'm fairly certain that not everyone would really want to operate as a magician in the same way that I operate as a magician.

There are certain processes, methods and ways of looking at things that everyone would benefit from familiarising themselves with, and which should NOT be the sole preserve of people involved with "magic". But that's not to say that the role of magician/shaman/doc is on its way to becoming obsolete. You need your specialists and you need your professionals, however occupying those roles has got nothing to do with kidding people that your somehow "special" or "magical", it's entirely dependent on whether you can walk the walk and deliver the goods in a very practical sense. A good doc always has clients, a bad doc has to hustle for his dinner.

It's not like that. Everyone does magic all the time in different ways. 'Life' plus 'significance' = magic."

Totally agree. I find that the hoodoo stuff really makes this sort of understanding come alive. In hoodoo, the act of hammering a nail into a wall to hang up a picture could be a potent magical act – the hammer, nail and artwork functioning as physical representations of "ideas" that you are manipulating towards a given intent. Scrubbing the bath clean in preparation for an uncrossing bath can be seen as religious activity. Cooking a meal with fresh herbs, each one representing a different Spirit. Getting a suit made for you. Learning the layout of your City and all its secret routes and alleyways. Anything you can fucking think of can be made magical and can come alive.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:33 / 13.07.04
And on the other side of the fence-

Grant rejected the path he was given, he's said as much himself, instead of tattooing that scorpion on to his body he gave it to fiction. Now perhaps I'm reacting badly but my own question resulting from that is- where does he think he gets off? Sure you can turn away from something and still criticise it but to then propose an entirely new system strikes me as a little presumptuous. I wish he would stop and stick to what he knows, I personally hold practice about 100 thousand yards above theory. Morrison doesn't.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:27 / 13.07.04
Grant rejected the path he was given, he's said as much himself, instead of tattooing that scorpion on to his body he gave it to fiction. Now perhaps I'm reacting badly but my own question resulting from that is- where does he think he gets off?

I'm not sure where I stand with that.. Scorpion Lwa. Risky gear. I think you need a pretty good reason for cutting a deal with them. In fact, you need a good reason for making a big long-term arrangement of that nature with any of the Lwa, and you need to be sure you are prepared to follow through on the terms and conditions. Even the most benevolent of them can show you a face that chills your bones.

I'm not sure what Morisson's reasons were for approaching them in the first place, and it's impossible to speculate about someone else's work without being privy to the details. But I dunno, it strikes me that the particular territories associated with the Scorpion Lwa seem to be so outside the scope of normal human activity, that unless you actually are an international assassin in the King Mob mold, I'm not sure why you would go off down that road.

You can't really do "magical tourism" with the Lwa. They are about practical things. Stuff that happens solidly and physically in the world. It's not really like the Tunnels of Set, or anything like that, where you can journey through dark "transgressive" terrain in order to integrate it and heal your psyche. Put a foot wrong, and they'll eat you.
 
 
EvskiG
18:27 / 13.07.04
Put a foot wrong, and they'll eat you.

Very dramatic.

Yet I suspect that you don't mean that a giant scorpion creature that appears real to cameras, scales, and other material instruments will physically consume one's body.

So what does your statement mean in an objective, real-world sense? "Casually invoke the lwa and I believe that you're likely to have unpleasant visions, bad luck, psychological problems and/or physical ailments?"

Or something else? And why?
 
 
FinderWolf
20:10 / 13.07.04
Not to sound pretentious, but based on what was said here about the abyss, I might have already gone through it before I even started my magickal path. Actually, it was the motivator FOR me to learn about magick and control my life & destiny more. (sorry if this is a tangent)
 
 
Joetheneophyte
20:14 / 13.07.04
forgive my ignorance but what is lwa? I bet I'm not the only one who has no idea what this is

(I hope!)
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:03 / 13.07.04
this aint a bad description but it aint all that either, i dont like alot of the site but i do like the info on maman brigette and the irish slave trade in the caribbean.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
21:13 / 13.07.04
So what does your statement mean in an objective, real-world sense? "Casually invoke the lwa and I believe that you're likely to have unpleasant visions, bad luck, psychological problems and/or physical ailments?"

Well...considering Mr Morrison reported being eaten fairly literally by a hideous rare virus that nearly killed him, and which he directly attributes to his experiences with The Scorpions... you can draw from that what you will...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
21:17 / 13.07.04
Not to sound pretentious, but based on what was said here about the abyss, I might have already gone through it before I even started my magickal path

The point I'm trying to make is that the abyss is an integral part of our reality, and therefore our experience of reality, and we go through it over and over again, just like any other Sephiroth. It's not a special place that only the hardest magicians get to walk through to prove how cool they are. Chances are that your Mam has been through the abyss more times than you have, but doesn't award herself the grade of Ipsissimus for having got through a rough patch, y'know.
 
 
FinderWolf
21:54 / 13.07.04
>> The point I'm trying to make is that the abyss is an integral part of our reality, and therefore our experience of reality, and we go through it over and over again, just like any other Sephiroth.

Yep. That rings very true.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
22:03 / 13.07.04
Bang on, to almost all of the above. I agree wholeheartedly with Morrison's rejection of Victorian magical protocol, but when it comes to (say) the Kabbalah, that "coy poetic code" is much older than the Victorian usage of it. Reading "The History of God" right now (highly recommended) and it has an extensive description of original Kabbalistic thought. Not to mention, as has been recently afoot in the Black and Orange thread, the concept of mythopoesis. You can't get rid of the poetry in magic...in fact, much of magical power IS poetic. (Does that need clarifying?)
The poetry needs to become that of daily life rather than deliberately esoteric or elitist work.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:32 / 13.07.04
gods poetry is the flesh of creation.
 
 
beautifultoxin
05:37 / 14.07.04
quoth the ever right-on Seamus,

"Not to mention, as has been recently afoot in the Black and Orange thread, the concept of mythopoesis. You can't get rid of the poetry in magic...in fact, much of magical power IS poetic. (Does that need clarifying?)"

Or as the witches who trained me put it:

"White magic is poetry.
Black magic is whatever works."

This whole, magic w/o trappings and constraints, the backing-off from Ceremonial and Chaos Magick, the embracing if magic as it exists in the phenomenal world w/o projecting our own symbols onto it -- this is why I call myself a witch and not a magician. It's why Wicca is a snore compared to witchery, why the Lwa are more potent to me than the "Mother Goddess."

It might be that the New Generation needs and craves both specificity and blood and guts, direct connection to the universal in our magic; I agree with the sentiment, even on an aesthetic level, that it's time to slough off the quaint Victorian occultist image and make magic more Now. Of course, this dovetails with the whole "sell magic to the masses" stuff Grant's on about from time to time... which I don't know what to make of.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
10:36 / 14.07.04
Wilde once quipped that without Latin and Greek the English would be hard pressed to express their disdain of foreign languages. 'Sigil' is a perfectly good term. If it's become synonymous with a particular methodology of enchantment associated with Austin Osman Spare, rather than its wider range of meanings, surely that says more about the intellectual torpor of modern occultists rather than the language itself?

Also, Grant's assertion that in the Victorian era, no-one was allowed to talk plainly and everything was in coy poetic code reflects a contemporary perception of the Victorians that is erroneus to say the least. Michael Foucault (among others) pointed out that whereas we nowadays like to think of our Victorian forebears as prudish and repressed, especially in regards to sexuality, it was in actuality a period in which sex became a prominent discourse - "categorized, classified, debated and discussed in endless detail" - both in private and through the 'medical' texts such as Krafft-Ebing's Psychopathia Sexualis.

At the risk of coming on like an episode of "What the Victorians did for us", I feel that a useful approach to understanding the Victorian occult revival is to look at it in context of what else was happening in that period. Briefly, the Victorian era was one of rapid social change - the industrial revolution, the challenge to religious orthodoxy posed by the growth of science, Darwinism, the rise of socialism, Marxism, the intense debate over Women's roles in society - driven by the impetus of the Women's Movement and by legal reform from the 1850s onwards. There's the rise of the Fin de Siecle and "Decadence" art movements (of which Aubrey Beardsley is a prime example) also responding to the idea of "the new woman" and "the new hedonism".

Before we dismiss the influence of Victorian occultism, let's be clear on what's being discarded.
 
 
Ayrkain Kaivar
10:40 / 14.07.04
"The poetry needs to become that of daily life rather than deliberately esoteric or elitist work."

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

Magic has become divorced from life in many ways. At some point you have to take the robes off and just be. Of course, it's not that simple, as those who are used to obfuscations will have to retrain themselves gradually, and those who have only ever experienced magic through a lens of religion will probably continue on as before until the bitter end.

But I think there's a balance to be struck between coming out in the open and using poetic language. To some degree we must exist in both worlds, (as in Sefer Yetsirah, run and return) gnosis and praxis, and to that extent we must build bridges between them.

This is my attempt at this art of Bridging the Gap, although it is far more praxis oriented than something like the Filth or the Invisibles.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:32 / 14.07.04
perhaps the poetry has to be experienced, you cant think it or write it down, you have to be doing poetry in every moment, fucking poetry, walking talking poetry, cellular rapping, verses of dna break dancing, conscious awareness of poetry without description.
 
 
sine
16:55 / 14.07.04
I hate to be the naysayer, but I feel that I have to disagree with GM here. I suspect the demystification of the magickal process will rob it of magic. S'like the adoption of the Vernacular over the Latin Mass in the RC; I can't help but feel they threw the spell away when the Mass (for the common church-goer) became comprehensible, made of 'everyday' words instead of 'holy' ones. Much like the use of barbaric names, that.

I think we all agree, every incantation, every theory, every concept and technique, these things are just crutches to aid concentration and the suspension of disbelief. Once you off a few uncannily successful willworkings and grant yourself your flight wings, okay, ad-lib, play with it, develop an entirely new jargon (you'll prolly have an idiosyncratic understanding of accepted terms anyhow).

Until then, I feel it would be foolhardy to ignore the traditions that precede us, however dated. Hard to understand and outmoded relative to modern thinking? Good. It should be an uphill battle. Beginners should feel like they're stumbling into an ancient secret, the hidden ranks, the chosen few, the unknown army. That's why we go looking for it. Ego? Good! I think Gurdjieff said something about needing to build up Ego 'cause its like rocket fuel; we first accumulate mass, then burn it to reach weightlessness.

A coy poetic code at least serves that purpose. We can't 'tell it like it is' anyway *cough*Tao*cough* so let us come off our bunkum about doing so.

As far as being at a crisis point and taking magickal interest and intervention in world affairs goes...I'm as worked up as anyone about the fact that we seem to be f**ked. And yes, it would seem that there might be some role for the willworker in this corner we've painted ourselves into. But is the complete dissemination of the most powerful technology in the world the answer? Let's face it, knowing magick doesn't give us wisdom; we all know, and probably have been, bad little wizards who did shitty things with our powers. I can't think of any other single technology or technique that has been good for everyone. Hell, even meditation has been periodically co-opted by the Hawk Establishment war machine, and you gotta know they had nothing good in mind.

And, in the final analysis, I gotta say I feel that it isn't the job of the Shaman to lead the tribe. We're here to insure rainfall, bless the hunt, urge our community on to greater fecundity, and interpret dreams. In exchange, we get a hut, food, psychotropics, an apprentice and the freedom to go plumb our otherworld. We don't decide who the tribe wars against. Since the Tribe seems intent on warring against itself...enjoy the hut while it lasts people.

Wow...this nicotine withdrawal sure brings out the misanthropy, huh? Apologies if I've strayed into podium-standing thread-rot.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
20:03 / 14.07.04
Actually, sine, keep on that withdrawl. B'tween you and AoG, the devil's advocate raises excellent points. I am the LAST person to advocate the demystification of magic and if that's where Grant is going, then I'm off in another direction. But later in the interview, on the same subject, he contrasts the occult world's preoccupation with Victoriana to the "natural magic" of Tibetan Buddhists or aboriginal lawmen.
This, I think, is more to the point. Tibetan Buddhism is chock-full of myth, poetry, and mysticism. There's no need to abandon such things, and in fact (given the nature of the beast) I don't think we CAN. It's not as if the myths are a stepping-stone to magic that exists above them. They ARE the magic - God/Universe/whatchacallit revealing itself symbolically. You can't look IT in the face but you can see its funhouse reflection.

AoG, good point about Victorian contribution. Shots at coy poetic code aside, methinks what needs to be discarded is the pseduo-science that plagued the age. The point is that magic is not a dogma and much of Victorian occultism has become a dogma for the magical community.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
11:25 / 15.07.04
Seamus
I take your point regarding 'dogma', however, I feel the issue of Victorian 'pseudo-science' requires some elucidation. The Victorians were, to a large extent, fascinated with science, no less than people nowadays, and the emerging scientific discourses of that era were appropriated and utilised by their spiritual/occult movements in a similar manner to how they are used now by contemporary practitioners. Take for example, the Psychical Research (founded in 1882) which sought to apply scientific rigour to the investigation of psychic phenomena. The SPR had many influential members, including Tennyson, John Ruskin, Arthur Balfour and William Gladstone (British Prime Minister 1865-74). Indeed, Gladstone is reputed to have said that psychical research is "The most important work, which is being done in the world. By far the most important work." Both Jung and Freud contributed to the SPR's journal, and some critics of Jung (notably Richard Noll) have argued that Jung's concept of the collective unconscious was heavily influenced the the theories of the SPR.

Similarly, in the work of Mme Blavastky you can find indications that she was drawing heavily on the scientific theories of her era - her concept of Aryans & 'root-races' was, I think it's fair to say, influenced by the prevailing theory of a common Indo-European language as proposed by William Jones, and Max Muller's Aryan invasion theory.

Then of course there's Crowley's famous "the method of science, the aim of religion."

If we're going to critique the Victorian occultists' use of "science", then surely this necessitates an equally critical look at how science is used within contemporary occult discourse?

When GM says All this magic stuff needs new terminology he is actually echoing a Victorian ideal (conceit, perhaps) that progress is synonymous with improvement - that "newer" is superior to old - an idea that gained a great deal of impetus in the Victorian era through the social application of Darwin's theory of Evolution into other areas.

As you point out, later in the interview GM says:
Do aboriginal lawmen have to learn the order of the Qabalistic sephiroth in order to accomplish their highly-advanced magic? Do the Tibetan monks of the Dzogchen tradition use Latin, 'angelic' or Hebrew phrases? Of course not, because magic is simply a way of living and it arises spontaneously as a response to our circumstances.

What is Grant saying here? Is he criticising a perceived over-complexity in some Western forms of magic by contrasting them with those of other cultures which - he implies - are not complex but 'natural' ("a way of living")? Not a million miles away from the nineteenth century trope of the 'rational' West and the romanticised 'noble savage'. Admittedly, my knowledge of Tibetan sorcery traditions is weak (though I know a couple of Dzogchen practitioners) but it strikes me as simplistic to assert than non-Western forms of magic are not structurally complex in themselves.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:26 / 15.07.04
I think it is really hard to guage what he's trying to express from these little interview snippets. There is a bee in his bonnet, but what species of bee? and what strange bonnet?

I'm not sure that he is saying aboriginal and tibetan magicians utilise a simpler and more direct form of magic than western magicians, or playing the noble savage card. And I'm not so sure that complexity is really the issue, it might be more a criticism of the way in which the body of knowledge passed down via the Golden Dawn and related orders (the LBRP, Tree of Life, Hebrew godnames, and more generally the basic operating system of western trad) is commonly presented (arguably, I suppose) as "what magic is and how it works".

For example the way in which there are loads of books on different reconstructionist "systems" of magic that basically just append different cultural signifiers onto the basic mechanisms of Golden Dawn style magic. Books on northern trad that talk about invoking different Gods at the quarters, books on Vodon that attempt to equate the Lwa with Sephiroth, various chaos magic texts that use the basic forms of G.'.D.'. style magic with a chaos makeover and fractal perm, etc... People coming to magic fresh are often confronted with this stuff as if it's "the way things are". You must learn how to banish. You must learn how to invoke and evoke. You must understand magic in terms of the Quabbala (either implicitly or otherwise).

Whereas, the magicians of other cultures get along just fine working from completely different operating systems without ever being exposed to the Golden Dawn/western trad operating system that's so prevalent in the west. These alternative operating systems are no less complex and sophisticated, just very different from the whole ceremonial malarky. For instance, Vodon is often regarded as a "primitive" magico-religious system, as its external form seems to consist of drumming, dancing and sacrifice. But any involvement with its operating system will reveal a huge depth of complexity and sophistication informing service to the Spirits.

Ultimately, magic is magic is magic. And it's about getting a direct living engagement with the universe working for you, rather than focussing on the specificity of form, or the peculiarities of a particular operating system from a particular culture. Maybe that's what he's getting at? If it isn't, then it's possibly what I'm getting at. Although, I'd probably try to salvage more of the baby when I emptied the bath. I don't think that Grant really expands on any his points enough in that interview to be able to really engage with them at anything more than a speculative superficial level. All too easy to fill in the gaps by putting words in his mouth.
 
 
rising and revolving
14:37 / 15.07.04
"AoG, good point about Victorian contribution. Shots at coy poetic code aside, methinks what needs to be discarded is the pseduo-science that plagued the age."

I couldn't agree more with this, and think that the current fashion to try and "explain away" magic with the science of quantum physics and chaos theory is ... silly? There's nothing wrong with the scientific method, but for me all the explainations have a theoretical gap. The words and science are just trappings we drop around the real deal, just like the robes and logic. The map is not the territory, as they say. Science just gets in the way, and leads inevitably to dogma. Build your own mytical stucture and enact it into your life.

Hell, the GD system, which GL takes some shots at, is at least pretty frank about how it works. It embeds the symbols into the students "sphere of sensation" - ie, it builds the symbols into your personal mythological structure - and then teaches you to manipulate the magic via the symbols. This is why the secrets are no good without the practice. It's also why any other set of symbols should work as easily ... provided you can embed them deeply into your "sphere of sensation" - it's often harder to do that without the support of other working occultists and a million books. But that, to me, is what Chaos should be all about...

Mind you, I tend towards the GD model myself - I like the structure. So you know, take it all with a grain of wheat, or summat.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:08 / 15.07.04
Not really taking shots at the GD operating system per se, just its - I suppose - cultural dominance within contemporary magic. As if magic runs off that specific framework, and all other alternative operating systems, from anywhere in the world or any point in history, can and should be understood in terms of it. The GD framework of operation is sound, not really to my tastes, although I do loosely work with aspects of it. When I was talking about "the curse of Victoriana" earlier on, I wasn't really advocating that we throw out all of that stuff as pompous dated claptrap, but perhaps make more effort to recognise that a lot of our assumptions about magic and how it works are significantly influenced by the magicians of this period and their work.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:37 / 15.07.04
Gypsy
As ever, you've raised some good points, particularly the way in which contemporary magic is presented as "the way things are". It seems to me that the crux of the matter is that there is a gap between how magic is actually experienced/lived by practitioners and how it is represented in texts. The dominant mode of writing magical texts seems to be in the third-person - it's presented as abstract knowledge, divorced from actual experience, (read my many, I'd say as a form of 'science') and there seem to have been few attempts by authors to place themselves within their texts as subjects. Look at the way texts in Western culture have become the dominant mode of imparting knowledge. Since the 17th century in Europe, text has been priviliged over oral transmission of knowledge.

As if magic runs off that specific framework, and all other alternative operating systems, from anywhere in the world or any point in history, can and should be understood in terms of it.

If this is implicit in the way the G.D/W.E.T is treated, we shouldn't be surprised, as again this was a major value in much of the knowledge production of the nineteenth century. For the Victorians, the production of knowledge - the creation of maps, systems of classification, etc., was very much about control. It's worth bearing in mind that disciplines such as "comparative religion" arose directly out of the desire to demonstrate the inherent superiority of European values (be they scientific, moral, or religious) over those of other cultures.
 
 
SteppersFan
13:33 / 16.07.04
I personally don't get on very well with formal ceremonial magick, but that said, there's an argument for attaining competency in technique as much as self-knowledge. Off the cuff, I'd say the key techniques to crack would be relaxation, circle casting / raising power and banishing*... now is my selection of these subjectively valuable techniques an artefact of my wetsern acculturation, and would practitioers from other cultures naturally select different ones?

And, is there just a bit of "grass is greener" in Grant's critique?

Then again, his impatience with ((insert preferred selection of popular modern western magickal systems)) is a bit old-hat. Long live the Trotskyist permanent revolution in western occultism! Build 'em up, knock 'em down!

* or, from a different perspective: project management, running meetings, negotiation, and cashflow management...
 
 
Skeleton Camera
11:44 / 17.07.04
The classification principle is essential to science. But, as AoG said, in many Victorian endeavors it was used in pseduo-scientific ways, to justify Anglocentricism. This, in my limited experience, still affects the magical/occult world.
The ceremonial magic tradition is nothing to scoff at. What Grant is asking, I think, is to look beyond it - as he's been insisting for so long with his emphasis on Pop Magic. The failure there is a "grass is greener" idealization, a very youthful "This stuff is old and dusty! Look at that cool shit THEY'RE doing!"

It's a tricky sentiment to deal with because it's half-correct. Move beyond the GD! By all means! Life made significant is magic! But that's not to say, tip the boat so everything slides to the other side - that's still an imbalance.

This is very frustrating to navigate, this balance.
 
  

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