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New York Times Magazine Article About Comics

 
  

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eeoam
15:22 / 12.07.04
Here is an article on the rise of 'literary' graphics novels you might find interesting (I think registration is required).
 
 
sleazenation
16:10 / 12.07.04
A very interesting and expansive article there- though, as often happens, I had to fight that inner voice that echoed 'he got that a bit wrong - oooh that's a gross over-simplification' in my head as I read it.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
17:01 / 12.07.04
It felt as if the NYT is grudgingly accepting graphic novels into "real literature." And the emphasis on neurotic porn-addicted loners was obnoxious as well. Moore should have had a much longer interview.

I think they chose that focus because that style of story - the intensely autobiographical, psychological drama - bears the greatest kinship to the Modern Novel. And to accept graphic novels as "legit" the easiest way to do so it to align them with Great or Classic Writing.
 
 
electricinca
17:59 / 12.07.04
Gosh darn it someone started the topic I wanted to.

Prententious condescending crap that is about 15 years behind the curve so to speak.

Comic books are what novels used to be -- an accessible, vernacular form with mass appeal -- and if the highbrows are right, they're a form perfectly suited to our dumbed-down culture and collective attention deficit.

I cannot believe how wrong this statement is.
 
 
Ria
18:19 / 12.07.04
"Sacco's example notwithstanding, this is a medium probably not well suited to lyricism or strong emotion[...]"
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
18:48 / 12.07.04
Hasn't this article been written and rewritten and then written again once a year for like the past five years? Nick Hornby wrote it once, if I recall correctly. He wasn't nearly as much of a total douche chill as this douche chill.

"You can skip all that stuff. Head straight for the following books which, being a New York Times reader, you've already heard of, as this article has been written several times in our publication over the past several years."

Douche. Chill.

I like that snipe at Y: The Last Man, too. What a douche. Why are writers still constantly surprised that comics are readable? I swear, they must all think that comics vocabulary is equivalent to, like, eMail vocabulary. I used to love this kind of publicity for books I really liked. (And, really, at this point it's a no brainer that these books, I shall hence forth refer to them as NYToons, are by and large, very good books) In fact, they first started cropping up when I was in Grad School and they gave a nice hearty boost of vindication among my peers. Now it's just annoying. That shit about Y: The Last Man was like guiding someone through the Fiction/Literature section and telling them to basically throw any and all copies of The Stand they came across into their portable bonfire.

God, what an embarassment.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
18:51 / 12.07.04
Side Note: How could anyone not want to stick with the name Gregory Gallant? That's pure fucking gold! Seth?

Yours In Alliterative Cartooning,
Benjamin Birdie
 
 
PatrickMM
20:45 / 12.07.04
The thing that bothered me about the article was the complete dismissal of almost everything that isn't done by cartoonists who both write and draw. I have no problem with an article not wanting to talk about a good superhero book, like Morrison's X-Men, but not even mentioning Vertigo as evidence of increased quality in comics seems a bit wonky. There's a heavy amount of genre prejudice here, with the complete dismissal of sci-fi and fantasy stuff, most notable in the discussion of Alan Moore's comics, where Promethea, clearly his most substantive work at present, is not mentioned, but League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and Lost Girls are, because, presumably, adventures of literary characters sounds more highbrow than exploration of magical concepts.

It's good to see comics get press, but as a fan of more than just cartooning style comics, it's a horribly one sided article.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
21:33 / 12.07.04
Moore was sound-bitten on that one. It wasn't even an interview, and they refused to approach any of his more challenging concepts - hinted at, mind you, but not dealt with - in favor of concentrating on comic-dork neurosis.

I'm writing them a letter. This is it.
 
 
FinderWolf
21:43 / 12.07.04
Go Seamus!!
 
 
Skeleton Camera
20:46 / 15.07.04
Here's the very brief, ie publishable, letter I sent them:

...

Dear Editor:

The world of comics is much broader than your article “How Cool is Comics Lit?” suggested. The breadth is glimpsed only towards the end, in a short interview with Alan Moore. Moore’s work revitalized comics in the 1980s. He used traditional comic conventions – such as superheroes – to explore profound ideas and deeply human events.
Moore is one of the “British Invasion” writers, alongside Neil Gaiman and Grant Morrsion. Their work as a whole is defined by its intelligence and expansive vision. Their interests run the gamut, from avant-garde science to ancient literature to occultism. They are extremely active outside the comics world as well: publishing fiction and drama, creating music, staging performances, and working as consultants. The scope and depth of these interests appear microcosmically in their comics.
This work is energized, inspiring and contemporary. Within are some truly challenging ideas. These comics did not fit the article’s bias towards neurotic autobiography, however. If you are going to consider “graphic novels” as literature, you have to examine what they are. They cannot be limited to a convenient stereotype.

...

This was twice as long when it began, however, and there's the makings of a good long essay in there. Comics in relation to the Modern Novel and the subversive elements finally bringing down conventions in both...or something like that.

(here's hoping they publish it, too!)
 
 
bio k9
22:19 / 15.07.04
If I could go the rest of my life without reading an article about the comicbook industry that mentioned Alan Moore it would make me a very happy man.

Watchmen was twenty fucking years ago people. Move on.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
22:56 / 15.07.04
Wow, is your letter a sustained exercise in missing the point, Seamus? Alan Moore = the breadth of comics? Dear God, save me. Do all the "challenging" ideas have to be to do with science/occult/magick/fantasy or superheroes? Do they? Are you in fact totally dismissing the large breadth of work covered there? Are MANY of Grant's stories just as shameless, with the barely disguised appearances of himself/cool bald men? I would come back to this topic in general, but I'm just not sure I can without losing the will to live.

Hold me, Bio.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
23:14 / 15.07.04
I'm not saying I'm particularly for or against the article, by the way, all I'm saying is the well reasoned arguments in your letter can basically be summed up as:

"I red ur articel on teh comix, but all te guys u menton r teh borin and the suxx0r! Alan moor is comicx king! he wrot suprheros like tey wuz real!1 all thos guys just write about life an stuff, but alan moor has a berd an he does it abot superheros! grunt morrizon even put his self ina comic! i didn understand it but it mad me tehink! i bet yu fink the matrix is clever but this wil chang ur wurld!!!11 LOL idiot u don even no wot comic are

k thx bye


Argh argh my eyes!
 
 
PatrickMM
02:28 / 16.07.04
Bio K9, yes, Watchmen was twenty years ago, but his books are still some of the best being published. Other than Morrison, I don't think there's anyone writing comics as well as Moore today.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:46 / 16.07.04
A lot of you are missing the point in rather embarassing ways.

This article was written to be a cover story for the New York Times Magazine, and thus was written specifically for that audience. It is basically evangelical in nature, and is trying to convince the typical NYTM reader (erudite, a bit snobby, well-read, biased towards high brow culture) that comics are now producing complete works of literature which are among the best writing in any medium at the moment. The creators covered in the piece are chosen rather specifically - generally speaking, they are among the best and the brightest in the industry, but they also produce work that fits two major criterion:

1) Would the typical NYTM reader take the subject matter seriously? Also, is it atypical from what people commonly expect from comic books (ie, superheroes, sci-fi, genre fiction)?

2) Is it a complete work, available as a single volume?

These criterion allow a lot of respectable writers and artists (also note that the writer clearly favors creators who both write and illustrate their work) to be weeded out. So everything Vertigo produces, for example, isn't included because they are ongoing series, and the trade paperbacks cannot mask this fact. Black Hole is clearly built to be a single work, so it is an exception.

There's definitely some things in the article which raise my hackles, but on the whole, the article is doing a GOOD THING.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
19:53 / 16.07.04
I used Moore as an example because Moore was himself cited in the article. It was a way in. I don't worship Moore nor see him nor Morrison as the most innovate figures in comics today. I did, however, want to grab something from their article and turn it around, show them an angle of comics that they (consciously?) chose NOT to explore in favor of focusing on a cliched and easily pigeonholed version of "graphic novelists."

(In re: the Watchmen argument, how old is MAUS anyway?)

The letters section of the Magazine is small and they run small letters. I couldn't give a dissertation and get it published.

Are Moore and Morrison and all those characters just as stereotypical? Sure - but not to the literary world, which has for a long time despised the sci-fi, fantasy, occult (etc) genres. It is easier for the literary world to identify with, and thus accept, comic writers dealing with themes of psychology or neurosis as these are the traditional meat of Modern Novels. (I'm making a lot of generalizations here - "literary world," "Modern Novel," - in trying to approach the article's bias as best I understood it.) The article was tremendously dated from a cultural standpoint, revealing the hesitancy of the literary world to integrate graphic novels (at least in a critical setting) and it took an easy way out in doing so. Go beyond Moore and Morrison in the next article!
 
 
Skeleton Camera
19:55 / 16.07.04
And, Matthew, I suppose you're ultimately right. The article was serving its purpose.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
18:28 / 17.07.04
I would agree with you Flux if they hadn't done this five times already.

It's like the way radio stations still play the same rock singles by Nirvana and Smashing Pumpkins and you hear it and then it suddenly dawns on you that they've been playing the same songs for almost a decade or more now...?

When something like McSweeney's #13 comes out and it's on the front table of almost every bookstore I walk into, I kind of feel like it's time to take the reins of these kinds of articles and broaden the scope a bit.

I definitely see what you're saying, they have a very specific criteria writing this article, and that's the problem. The last four times they wrote it, they had the same criteria. Obviously no article will please the typical comics reader and, Christ, let's hope they never do. I like something like McSweeney's #13 a lot more because it seems like a more comprehensive look at the artform as a whole, rather than a NYToons wankfest. Although it mainly includes the usual suspects, it doesn't annoy the hell out of me as much.

Who knows why.
 
 
The Natural Way
19:03 / 17.07.04
It's the shit about "The form does not lend iteself to lyricism (apart from 'Palestine')", or whatever, that does my head in. Just like Julie Burchill's bullshit about how comics can't do war. Apart from Maus.

What the shit are these guys talking about? What is this fucking "lyricism" bullshit, anyway? Arg. It's just so pretentious!
 
 
electricinca
20:03 / 17.07.04
Prententious condescending crap that is about 15 years behind the curve.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
00:39 / 18.07.04
The article gets rewritten all of the time because a) there's a few million or so people who haven't read it yet b) the comics keep getting better and more worthy of mainstream lit attention. Please keep things in perspective!

I'm sorry, but Y The Last fucking Man et al are not ever going to be taken seriously. Sorry. It's pop entertainment, sure, and that's fine. But it's not going to get this kind of attention for the same reason that Buffy never won an Emmy, Pavement never won a Grammy, and Zoolander never won an Oscar.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:58 / 18.07.04
That's a very good comparison. Do you mean that its subject matter is ephemeral, or that its style is aimed too squarely at an audience that is not giving out the awards (Buffy - teenagers, Pavement - indie kids, Zoolander - Flyboy)? I mean, ER is popular and got its share of Emmies, likewise Titanic and the Oscars.

This article keeps getting written, surely, because there are people who write for and read the NYT who also read comics and are tired of being deeply ashamed of that fact, and thus go on the offensive? Like, in fact, teen serials, or indie rock. As such, it's more likely a) to go for the stuff that most closely mimics the NYT reader's experience of novels (concerned with everyday matters, singular entities rather than a series of books, naturalistic) and "sequential art" (cartoon, monochrome, drawn by the writer) and b) go for something more easily defensible and more easily explicable than, say, The Pulse or Powers (What? Powers? What? You mean - Yeah. You are -
and I say this most sincerely - a dick. Like a superdick. Superdick? Super. Dick), which even if aimed at a more adult audience is going to remind the casual reader of Saturday morning cartoons and Summer blockbusters. Something like Promethea is already moving further and further away from the ease-in point for an NYT reader - in a way, it is going to be a harder sell than Watchmen - whereas you don't need to know who the Charlton characters the Watchmen are based on are to make the series comprehensible, what happens to the NYT reader who finds himself confronted for no immediate reason with, say, Splash Brannigan?

(Incidentaly, I hate myself for doing this, but it is really getting to me - "criterion" is the singular. You have two criteria)
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:21 / 18.07.04
Do you mean that its subject matter is ephemeral, or that its style is aimed too squarely at an audience that is not giving out the awards

The latter. Genre fiction in comics plays into the biases against comics in general - all of the low expectations that people already have. The goal of this article is to prove to that audience that comics can offer something else more to their liking and perception of quality. It's taking it one step at a time - draw them in with Clowes and Sacco, then later on get the word out about the quality genre fiction.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
13:01 / 19.07.04
I think my perspective is pretty balanced. If we follow your comparisons, though, would you really respect an article that reveals the quality of indie rock by talking about Crooked Rain when the new Modest Mouse single is on the VH1 video charts?

That's my only concern. And those millions of people who haven't read it yet are in no way more likely to read it this time. It's in the exact same place. The magazine and the book review are the two niche publications in any Sunday Edition of the Times and I would in no way be surprised by some statistic saying that those individual publications' readerships haven't fluctuated significantly since like 1948. And that's what are all of these articles have appeared. I think the only expanded readership of this article is by comic fans who want to see what all the fuss is about but have never picked up the Times. I have a feeling, though, that they're not the article's intended audience.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:45 / 19.07.04
If we follow your comparisons, though, would you really respect an article that reveals the quality of indie rock by talking about Crooked Rain when the new Modest Mouse single is on the VH1 video charts?

That makes no sense. It implies that either artists who have been around for a long time are no longer worth mentioning in the press, or that Daniel Clowes et al have not produced new work of interest to the NYTM readership since 1994. It also seems to ignore the central point of the article (yet again!): that there are a bunch of cartoonists turning out complete single-volume works of literature in the comics medium. Why should the writer ignore Adrian Tomine and Chris Ware when they are relevant to the subject of the article, simply because the paper has covered their work in the past? That's entirely illogical.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
17:03 / 19.07.04
That makes no sense. It implies that either artists who have been around for a long time are no longer worth mentioning in the press, or that Daniel Clowes et al have not produced new work of interest to the NYTM readership since 1994.

1994? I don't get it. I doubt it's been even a year since the last time one of these was written. And, honestly, they really haven't come out with anything new, comparitively. My reference was not implying, somehow, that it's been ten years since they released anything worthwhile (because, um, how??) but rather, that they continue to highlight the same prominent works and workers they've been highlighting for five years in print. Yes they are worthwhile (as Crooked Rain is), but there are other works that have gained noteriety (Modest Mouse single). Was Crooked Rain released in 1994? I'm guessing...?

It also seems to ignore the central point of the article (yet again!): that there are a bunch of cartoonists turning out complete single-volume works of literature in the comics medium.

No, I'm pointing out that that central point is hella played.

Why should the writer ignore Adrian Tomine and Chris Ware when they are relevant to the subject of the article, simply because the paper has covered their work in the past? That's entirely illogical.

I am not implying that this article was shoddily constructed or that it is including works that it shouldn't be, I am saying that it never should have been written in the first place.
 
 
FinderWolf
17:49 / 19.07.04
somewhat off-topic, but this was too funny:

(What? Powers? What? You mean - Yeah. You are -
and I say this most sincerely - a dick. Like a superdick. Superdick? Super. Dick.)

LOL!
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:15 / 19.07.04
I am saying that it never should have been written in the first place.

Right, because there's really no good reason to ever publish anything thoughtful or evangelical about comics, or the artists mentioned in this article in the mainstream press because there have already been a few articles about comics, and they didn't "work" then, so obviously we should all give up.

It just seems as though you misunderstand how the mass media works. Articles are written over and over again in several publications. Think about what happens when a new movie comes out - reviews, articles, interviews all pertaining to the film are written in hundreds of magazines, newspapers, tv, radio, etc, all recycling the same junket interviews and basic information. This is a big part of how people know things exist - you can't blame people for not having an interest in things that they do not know about. So when Daniel Clowes et al get their big article about alternative comics every other year or so, it's a big deal, because they do not get that kind of media canvassing. Anything which gets these comics in the hands of people who may like them (and in the case of nearly everything mentioned in this article, that means primarily people who would probably never go into a comics shop) is a GOOD THING.

I understand why you would be bored with these articles, given that they tell you nothing new, but it is crucial to keep in mind that they aren't for you. For the most of us here on the Barbelith comics board, it's old news, but for the overwhelming majority of the population, it's a revelation.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:24 / 19.07.04
they continue to highlight the same prominent works and workers they've been highlighting for five years in print.

This is because they are focusing on the best talents in the industry who would be of interest to the NYTM readership. It's a bit like how when you teach introductory literature classes, you focus on classics and canonical works rather than new releases. Again, it is essential to keep in mind that the article is written for comics novices, not old jaded comics shop regulars who've seen it all and are eagerly awaiting the new issue of Y The Last fucking Man.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:25 / 19.07.04
Now I'd really like to know what some of you think should've been sold to the NYTM readership instead.

If any of you say Ex Machina, I will cry a river of tears which will drown all of New York State.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
19:14 / 19.07.04
No, no, it would honestly be the apex of ridiculousness to hype a currently ongoing book. Definitely stick only to completed works.

I still stand behind New X-Men being a true standard-bearing work, that given the proper amount of publicity (which Entertainment Weekly did when Morrison's run began), would make arguments like this completely moot. Yes it involves super-heroes. Yes it is as rich, complex, moving, and artfully rendered as anything else in print. It will undoubtedly never happen, but if Marvel got their shit together, and made a mass market sized, impeccably designed hardcover (or even trade) edition of Grant's run I think it would do amazingly well, critically and commercially.

One reason most of these books get respected is because they're not typically comic-sized, gloss covered TPB's. I think DC is on the definite right track with their most recent spate of dust-coverless and hella good looking hardcovers. If Marvel did something similar, having Comicraft design a pulp themed (visually [see: Astro City Tarnished Angel TPB]) collection of Bendis' Daredevil run, again, I would put that up against anything else in that article.

A lot of it comes down to perception, obviously. Mainstream comics are still designed (visually) to appeal to comic book readers. There's not one book mentioned in that article that's designed like that. They're designed like books that normal people read, and that's why normal people read them. I don't think people are as embarrassed to read comics as they are embarassed to be seen with books that are so embarassingly designed. Books like Buddha or Jimmy Corrigan are designed like regular people books and, thus, get exposure.

So, I don't even know how I got around to talking about this stuff, I guess I can't really fault the author for talking about these books, because if the other books expect to be taken seriously, they'd better start looking the part.

And, yeah, any exposure to comics is inherently good. I guess all this vitriol I was spouting has finally led me to figuring out the precise reason why these articles keep talking about the same things. Realistically, they kind of don't have much of a choice. Entertainment Weekly can talk about glossy trade paperbacks because they look just as disposable as the Jessica Simpson CD reviewed a few pages back. But it's difficult to expect the New York Times to cover books that look so perilously disposable, even though there are great many of them that are anything but.

I'm telling you, there's undoubtedly so little money in it, but if DC cooked up a smaller (regular book sized) compilation of The Filth, designed it with a Worst Case Scenario paper stock cover, and just sold it like a regular book, it would be in the Times the next month.

It's a tough sell, though, because you'd need to release regular sized (or even super-sized) trades and hardcovers for the Direct Market, but until they start printing versions of great comics in formats that people recognize, they will never get any kind of real respect.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:28 / 19.07.04
Listen, I'm a huge NXM fan (if that's not already obvious to all of you by now), but that series is a HORRIBLE ambassador to the non-comics world for a few key reasons.

1) Even though much of it is very well written, too much of it is sloppy. There are enormous plot holes all the way through it, especially in the final year. That kind of haphazard writing does comics as a whole no favor - it's important to remember that comics have to be as good as it gets to appeal to an audience unwilling to cut it slack.

2) The art is inconsistent, and in some cases, very weak. Part of the appeal of the other books mentioned in the article is that they are very considered works of art in which each panel and page is crafted with great care. While this may be true of Frank Quitely, it is most definitely not the case with Chris Bachalo, Marc Silvestri, Leinl Yu, or Igor Kordey. It is not unreasonable for an outsider to expect consistent artwork - regular readers of corporate comics are conditioned to being very forgiving about this sort of thing, but the drastic shift from Quitely to Kordey and back again is just too much for most people, including the majority of Barbelith members.

3) It's too long. It's a series of 7 books. It's not a complete work in a single volume. This is a major deal-breaker for casual readers.

4) The characters are corporate properties mired in a complex continuity. This is another deal-breaker for people who want "authentic" art. That is a big bias to contend with.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:33 / 19.07.04
I am unconvinced that The Filth could be successful, since it is one of the worst projects that Morrison has ever done. I don't think it has much mainstream appeal - it's too far in a lot of directions, in some ways it seems as though it was designed to be alienating. The covers are attractive but the art is ugly (not bad, mind you - just ugly).

Maybe Kill Yr Boyfriend. That's the most mainstream non-superhero story Morrison's ever done.

It's also the best work of his career.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
19:37 / 19.07.04
I think many of those caveats (plot holes aside) would be taken care of by my utopian formatting idea. If you put in a thick but well designed package, then the art inconsistencies are just another version of an Irvine Welsh novel's font-games.

The key is that his run is a complete novel, front to back, and I think that's the most important, and most appealing characteristic.
 
  

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