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Doctors' sexual orientation

 
  

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Ganesh
00:04 / 08.07.04
A few weeks ago, the British Medical Journal carried an interesting editorial summarising some of the findings of a small-scale survey of how UK gay, lesbian and bisexual healthcare professionals manage their sexual identities in the context of clinical work. Some of it really struck a chord:

The finding that lesbian, gay, and bisexual practitioners are deeply preoccupied with issues of managing their identity will not surprise readers who are familiar with the literature on social identity and stigma. Although health professionals may resolve in advance either to be open about their sexual orientation (to "out" themselves) or to avoid disclosure (by trying to "pass" as normal), it would be unrealistic to think that every routine consultation could be prefaced by an explanation of sexual preference. Most practitioners find themselves carefully negotiating their way through interactions, making decisions from one moment to the next about how relevant their sexual identity may be to the situation and just how open to be. Thus in a single day a gay doctor might find himself "passing" to avoid homophobia but also revealing his homosexual identity to show affinity with a gay patient, or as a desexualisation strategy to resolve problems in examining a woman patient. "Passing" may involve conformity with self protective routines based on cultural assumptions of heterosexuality, like the use of chaperones for female patients examined by male doctors. Many lesbian, gay, and bisexual practitioners follow this practice despite the sense of irony that it engenders. This movement between different personas can generate real tensions as, for example, professionals ponder what will happen if attempts to "pass" are undermined by the subsequent discovery of sexual preference.

At just what point lesbian, gay, and bisexual identity becomes relevant to the interaction and needs to be disclosed is not straightforward. My guess would be that a substantial number of patients expect this information to be communicated before a physical examination is carried out. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual practitioners face the difficult talk of constructing a version of ethical practice, which balances the principle of informed consent against freedom from discrimination. As Riordan says, very little exists in the medical school curriculum or in continuing professional education that helps prepare lesbian, gay, and bisexual practitioners to chart a course through these dangerous waters.


Although I'm now at a level where I rarely have to perform physical examinations (I have people who do that for me, darling), I'm certainly aware of times when I've had to make the snap decision as to whether to grin and bear a patient's anti-gay tirade or say something - and I've been in plenty of situations where a devoutly religious individual (and this has happened with Christians, Muslims, Jews and Hindus) has made the assumption that I'm heterosexual and asked after my wife. I'm then stuck with the dilemma of whether to "out" myself (knowing they'll likely have a negative reaction and the therapeutic relationship will be compromised), answer curtly, evasively or non-committally (which tangles me up in deceit-by-omission) or lie outright (which I've never done, but which would make me feel crap).

What do people think? Studies show general preferences along lines of gender: women tend, on the whole, to prefer female doctors; men prefer male. Are there situations in which you'd want to be aware of your doctor's sexuality?
 
 
gravitybitch
00:32 / 08.07.04
Interesting... My immediate thought is, "No, I'd rather not know at all."

And the reason why is that I'm feeling self-conscious about the various ways I'd treat the MD depending on any stated orientation...

How much do I skirt around my bisexuality? Is the (straight, female) MD going to react badly to the fact that I have relations with women and men (it's happened, although not recently)? Am I going to expect a certain "queer" cameraderie from a (gay, male) MD and be put off if I don't get it?

I don't think that the MD's gender or orientation would prevent me from disclosing a vital bit of information, but it might well affect the rapport we have; might possibly affect the care I receive (although that's fairly unlikely).
 
 
lekvar
06:52 / 08.07.04
Now that the terribly original and witty proctologist joke left my head I would have to say that a doctor's orientation doesn't matter to me at all. However, I suspect that asking here is not going to get you a representative sampling of attitudes, we 'Lithers being a fairly open lot. But I know people to whom race is an important issue when searching for an MD. I'll never forget the time I overheard my grandfather expressing shock and disgust at "that nigger doctor."

There are a lot of people who barely tolerate their own sexuality, let alone that of others. Until that changes "passing" will probably be the norm.
 
 
Ganesh
07:23 / 08.07.04
I don't ever start threads on Barbelith to get a "representative sampling" of attitudes. Just interested in the opinions of people here, really.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
11:03 / 08.07.04
On a personal level I have no preference as to who my doctor is and certainly no interest in their sexuality. I think this is in part due to my position. As a son of a pharmacist I have capitalised on opportunities to learn about medicine/medical practice and also have been in regular contact of doctors. Subsequently I feel that I view medical professionals with far less mystique then the average person. To these ends I find that I'm far more interested in the doctors attitude towards me and my reasons for seeing them. I can't abide having things dumbed down for me, especially after I have indicated an elevated grasp of the subject.

As an aside I've had straight doctors of both sexes, gay male doctors and one that I think was a lesbian (not 100% on it) and don't recall making any reaction based on sexuality. I hope I didn't.

However, context I think that there are two primary needs to that would need to be addressed and managed as a priority over others:

a) The provision of the best quality healthcare possible on both short and long-term basis and:

b) Your ability to make that provision.

I can imagine that it isn't easy when faced with prejudice as part of your job but does this affect the objectivity? It's certainly a grey area that I imagine you will have to deal with the whole of your professional life.

On the other hand, you do occupy a position where your sexuality may allow you to treat patients who object to seeing straight doctors, particularly in your field of expertise.
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
19:34 / 08.07.04
I could not care less about the sexuality or race of my doctor. I choose my doctor based on (assuming competency) the willingness to answer my questions, and their agreement to medicate me as little as possible. If a doctor meets those two criteria they could be green with purple-polka dots and enjoy the unique sexual nuances of south african elephants, for all I care.

I have known individuals who did care, and remember my mother's consternation over a black proctologist I was referred to when I was very young. I mean, never mind that he was 6'3" and had kielbasa like fingers. She was concerned about his color. Thanks mom.

My parents would care about the sexuality of a health-care provider. However, I do not think my siblings would, and I know that my nephews and nieces would not.
 
 
sleazenation
22:35 / 08.07.04
Do people actually think of their doctors as sexual beings?
 
 
lekvar
02:11 / 09.07.04
I don't think of the sexuality of my doctor any more than I think of the sexuality of my plumber. None of my business, and unless they care to MAKE it my business I couldn't care less. Should it matter? Should I think of my doctor/plumber/grocer as a sexual person?

Now admittedly there are areas where it could matter, especially if the professional in question has authority riding on wherther or not they have personal experience with an issue that pertains to one sexuality or another.

But I assure you that when I'm having blood drawn the last thing on my ming is what the attendant likes to do in hir free time.

Unless they're REALLY cute.
 
 
Jub
06:32 / 09.07.04
What sleazenation and levkar said really. The male/female thing seems moot too (for me personally) as I think of doctors as doctors - anything thing else - their race, gender or sexuality is secondary to their function as a doctor.

however...

Are there situations in which you'd want to be aware of your doctor's sexuality?

infact, yes, there is one. (However, it is not limited to doctors but people in general.) If I did ask after a doctors husband or wife (which admittedly is extremely unlikely owing to doctors = fixers-of-what's-wrong - not my-mate-to-chat-to) and they were gay, I'd want them to correct me!
 
 
Ganesh
07:43 / 09.07.04
infact, yes, there is one. (However, it is not limited to doctors but people in general.) If I did ask after a doctors husband or wife (which admittedly is extremely unlikely owing to doctors = fixers-of-what's-wrong - not my-mate-to-chat-to) and they were gay, I'd want them to correct me!

This was gonna be my answer to Sleaze's question: we may not think of doctors as sexual beings, but we think of them as social beings, and the existence of a spouse and/or children is not infrequently assumed (of course, there's wedding rings and family photos and so on, and in rural areas, doctors are perhaps more likely to be known to the community in ways other than fixer-of-what's-wrong).

As I've said above, I don't always correct the assumption: I'll say I'm unmarried and don't have kids but, beyond that, I have no prepared answers for this line of questioning. It's often Indian or Middle Eastern patients who ask after my wife (in India, 'are you married?' was pretty much the second question asked by strangers on public transport, so I appreciate it's a cultural thang), and I'm mindful that they're often the ones whose therapeutic relationship might be harmed by disclosure of my sexuality.

Then there's the occasional situation in which there are further ethical considerations. I've sometimes found myself in the position of counselling a male victim of childhood sexual abuse by males - and the question of homosexuality tends to loom large. They've never asked me directly, but if they did, would I be obliged to tell them?

As to the question of whether I'd behave differently as a doctor around someone expressing particularly bigoted views, I don't think so - not in terms of the treatment options I'd provide - but I'd certainly be less willing to give of myself as a person. I wouldn't go out of my way to be friendly with them, and I'd reveal nothing of myself personally.

I've never actually disclosed my sexuality openly, but there've been two or three occasions when I have, to my mind, made it reasonably obvious - usually through discussion of the gay scene, coming out to parents, etc. These were all with young gay men (one HIV positive) who'd taken overdoses. I know colleagues who are a lot more open about being gay, and I'm often conflicted as to whether I should be less reticent myself...
 
 
Triplets
23:20 / 11.07.04
Couldn't you just turn Xoc into a woman for purposes of discussion?

'Well, my Vera...'
 
 
Jub
07:56 / 12.07.04
That would certainly be an easy way to dodge the awkwardness, but I don't think the dodging the question is the problem here, so much as why he should have to.
 
 
Ganesh
09:25 / 12.07.04
And I don't know about you, but if I were to do something like that, I'd feel like I were shitting on myself and Xoc. I spent 22 years of my life pretending to be heterosexual, and I don't want to do it anymore, ever. I don't think I can do it anymore.
 
 
Jub
05:38 / 13.07.04
Ganesh - I've been thinking about this for a while now. Ultimately, I think (especially in light of your last post) that if people are going to inquiry after your wife / heterosexual lifestyle - you should correct them.

If I see the doctor and want whatever is ailing me fixed, I'll only ask him medical questions and expect the same back. If one of us breaks this unspoken arrangement and delves into personal details, then the other is quite entitled to answer earnestly.

There are two things to note here. Firstly is the politeness factor. Like the question "How are you?" the enquiring after the wife is not usually a proper question but a social lubricant. I can understand (but probably not fully) how irritating this must be. Secondly, there is the different culture thing of your patients as you said; this is not reason in itself for you to pander to them.

I suppose it all depends on the circumstances and mood of the time, but really, if this bothered me as much as it seems to bother you - I would certainly try to balance that out. I empathise with the reasons for your reticence, but if you want to answer patients enquiries to your personal life personally then tell them; if you think maintaining the facade of straightness is easier, then do that.

I remember watching a program when I was little when this problem first occured to me (ie being gay is not immediately apparent and you are only open to criticism if you choose). There was a black gay man and the interviewer asked him if during his life he'd found it harder to be black or gay, given the prejudices of society. He said that he'd never had to tell his parents he was black.

Ulitmately, it boils down to what your comfortable with, and I don't think you would have started this thread if you weren't completely at ease. Try it with a few patients and see what happens!
 
 
Ganesh
20:56 / 13.07.04
Thing is, Jub, I'm a psychiatric doctor - so differentiating between my patients' "medical" and "personal" details ain't necessarily that straightforward. I can totally see it from their point of view: I'm asking them plenty of intrusive questions in the course of my routine psychiatric assessment; why shouldn't they ask me one or two? The contract isn't always understood in the same way - particularly among those whose cultures very much allow for 'asking after one's wife'.

Perhaps I should try it with a few patients. At present, however, I'm working in an inner-city community placement which brings me into contact with a patient-group comprising large numbers of young schizophrenic Muslim or African men. In these circumstances, disclosure also threatens to jeopardise any therapeutic relationship I'm able to establish.

Maybe something to try in a future placement.
 
 
Ex
14:17 / 20.07.04
There are a lot of situations where I'd like to know my doctor's sexual attitudes. I try not to collapse sexual identity into that, though - that is to say, if I thought my doctor was a dyke, I could hope she would be sympathetic to alternative sexual thingummies, but I know logically it's never an entirely reliable correspondence, and that a well-clued-up straight doctor is going to be an equally good bet.

It's not that I think of them as 'sexual beings', sleaze, in the sense of humping their legs or picturing them naked, but unless it's a very simple transaction ("My toe hurts!" "Rub this on it!" "Ta!") then stuff about sex intrudes, I find. I've had to negotiate with my doctor about antidepressants and contraceptives, and sometimes I've had to think hard about how to covey what my priorities are, and thus had to think about how I might be viewed by the doctor.

So Ganesh - I can see that a lot of people do collapse sexual identity and sexual attitudes - I do it myself, particularly in stressful situations. So if you come out, a lot of people will assume you have some kind of fiendish homoliberal agenda, and/or are judging them and their situation according to some set of rules they're not familiar with. Which irritatingly could get in the way of a therapeutic relationship. No suggestions, but good luck.
It seems terribly stressful that you're managing your own feelings and taking on responsibility for theirs also - in most situations around coming out, one ideally (ultimately) lets people take responsibility for their own reactions to the information. Does the therapeutic context mess and your role of responsibility mess with that ideal? I'm really interested in what that feels like and how it works.

(Not sure if this is the thread, but one example of an assumption of mutual straightness which I find really disconcerting is when the doctor asks "Do you have a boyfriend?" I've been asked a lot of times and in order to ellicit all kinds of information - are you having sex, do you need contraception, is it possible you're pregnant, is there anyone else we should contact if you turn out to have the raging skin-transmitted lergy, are you a mature and rounded human being. I'd rather be asked directly any of those component parts; aside from the assumption of heterosexuality, you usually have to clarify later anyway what 'having a boyfriend' is standing for.)
 
 
Joetheneophyte
07:47 / 21.07.04
It wouldn't bother me at all but I could see , especially in the psychiatric profession and when dealing with different cultures, how dislosure might be harmful to the professional relationship.

I have heard younger men come out with terrible statements about violence they would like to inflict on "them queer bastards". My cousins who are black (and I know I am generalising terribly here) are very very homophobic and I believe that they would not attend a doctor who they knew to be gay

One of them took great offence when I sent him a picture that I thought would make him laugh. It was of a guy with a mammoth penis, so big in fact that I am convinced a little photoshop work had been done. I found it funny but he was disgusted, not by the sexual nature but the fact that he had recieved a picture of a naked man. I learned a lesson there and then and in hindsight it was a stupid thing for me to do

Getting back on topic, I can see how if you are dealing with young men, then disclosure might be a problem. Anti-gay sentiment is still prevailent, particularly in young men, who often believe that every gay man they meet must want to have sex with them!
If you were dealing with physical ailments then it would be less of a problem but as you yourself note, your relationship with your psychiatric patients is based more on trust and rapport and you go well past just discussing symptoms. Sadly even physical ailments might be a problem because there are still people out there who think that if you are gay you must be HIV+ and are going to infect them
via osmosis or something!

I have heard ridiculous statements like this come from the lips of people who I would otherwise class as reasonably intelligent.


One part of your post did make me laugh though Ganesh ....it was when you said (to paraphrase) "I don't have to do that these days, I have people to do that for me darling"

Why do you feel the need to come accross as 'camp'? It might have been a joke but I will tell you something about myself that is similar

Y'see for me, I don't care whether people are gay, bi, lesbian or stick a warm loaf on their genitals

But one thing that does grate is when gay men act over the top 'campy'. There is a gay bloke who works in a local pub and he is really over the top, hand on hip, exaggerated mannerisms ....he makes Kenneth Williams look butch. Now over the years, this screechy act has bothered me less and less. He is in the perfect environment to act like this and he does make you smile because he is the biggest bitch in the place and always has some gunny gossip

Would I want to walk around town with him?
No.....because out of his environment he would be a liability. Some people cannot help having a feminine voice or even mannerisms but when it is cultivated for affect then I do think it is a pain and there is no need for it.

Now much like you using the word Darling in your post, being a scouser, I have an inherent need to be funny. It is as if I have to live up to the image portrayed in the media of quick witted funny guy. Humour is disproportionately important to scousers. Everyone is a bloody comedian. Generally scousers are quick witted because we talk fast, I believe our brains work quite speedily as well but I believe that we are also the victims of our own image and we try hard to live up (or down) to the same


If you employ such turns of phrase in your day to day communication then the people with whom you communicate will probably suspect your sexual orientation anyway. Not that this matters as we have discussed but it is worth noting

a funny term that you are probably familiar with is that people will sense you with their "Gadar"
 
 
Ex
09:52 / 21.07.04
I can't stand people who aren't camp. They seem so staid and monotone, and it's so artificial and affected - they've usually spent years practicising keeping their voice and physical gestures within a certain range. I understand it's often because of childhood intimidation around being not girly and/or not gay. It's a shame.

I mean, I wouldn't mind if my doctor wasn't camp, but I wouldn't want to walk round town with him - he'd be a liability and people would justifiable throw custard tarts at him and shout "Live a little, you repressed bastard!"
 
 
Joetheneophyte
12:03 / 21.07.04



that was good
 
 
Ex
13:34 / 21.07.04
Well, it was a cheap side-swipe, actually. But all true, apart from the bits about disliking non-camp people.

I’m just slightly taken aback - this thread is about Ganesh and other doctors negotiating their self-presentation – being forced to be hyper-aware of it - so as not to jeopardize the service they’re providing to other people.
So, a thread launched about how some people have to do way more work on monitoring people’s perceptions of them. And someone like yourself, who clearly has their head screwed on the right way, and is anti-homophobic, thinks that it would be a good place to say “Actually, maybe you should be less camp? Because that really annoys me.”

Your suggestion that Ganesh may not have noticed how camp he is seems very odd in a thread about how he has to constantly monitor his own self-presentation because of homophobia. Similarly, your implied suggestion that he might tone it down a bit (unless he’s one of the people who can’t help it), seems odd when we’re discussing how unfair it is for him to have to tailor his self-presentation to a heterosexist society.

The suggestion that being camp is somehow about exaggerated self-presentation - playing it up, being inauthentic –is common enough, although bizarre – I think not being camp takes at least as much insincerity and effort.
But cropping up in this thread, it’s doubly peculiar, as it’s bloody clear that the most inauthentic thing here is the forced masquerade of heterosexuality (or neutrality) that some medical staff have to perform in order to safeguard their ability to provide a service.

It struck me as curious. I wasn’t just poking you for comedy value.

Sorry if I’m rotting the thread, everyone, or making an example of you, Ganesh.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
09:56 / 22.07.04
I am sincerely sorry if I was misunderstood and maybe I am a victim of my surroundings and warped beliefs (maybe)

The kind of 'campness' (sorry for that term) that I am dscussing is not so much somebdy talking for want of a better term 'girly' .......or even being naturally fluid and at ease with their movements (or as you so correctly point out, NOT repressed)

I am talking about overly exaggerated and attention seeking 'screechiness'. Yes there is an argument that this lack of self consciousness is healthy and should be encouraged but the cases I was drawing attention to are when people seem to want to over amplify their sexuality and make a big noise about it

Nothing wrong with being at ease with your sexuality but these guys are the gay equivalent of ultra macho man

For example, the lad I was talking about, he is a lovely man, makes me laugh and is funny as hell......but I still state, I would not like to walk past a gang of lads with him.......not because I am scared that they might by association think I am 'one of them' but more importantly, because of his over the top mannerisms might bring physical violence (and whilst they may NOW be natural to him, they I strongly believe must have been practiced and cultivated at some earlier time in his life)

Yes it is wrong that people should view and react to somebodies 'difference' in a violent manner but sadly we do not live in an ideal world and no matter what laws we bring in to protect the individual, anybody who makes such an exhibition of themselves , is likely to draw fire.

Don't get me wrong (PLEASE)
I do not advocate or believe it is right that youths should target this man for his mannerisms....sexuality ........whatever

But I have met enough gay men who try to fit into some 'gay mincing image', and I am afraid that far from being the epitomy of genuine none repressed individualism that you claim, they are fitting into some stereotype that they believe they must live up to

A gay man of my acquinatance said that he has seen this other fella making an asbsolute idiot of himself in town, really hamming it up, he even annoys him. Now my point to Ganesh was just a simple one and maybe totally out of order
All I asked was , why did he feel the need to use the term 'Darling'.....whilst not in itself an unusual word or even the exclusive province of gay men.....it struck me as strange that in a thread that was asking about whether it was professional or ethical to discuss sexuality (in his particular circumstances) Ganesh chose to utilise phraseology that came accross as 'camp'

Nothing wrong with this and NO judgement on my part, he can speak how he wishes and it is no concern of mine

All I mentioned was that in my opinion, many gay men use an un-natural and stereotypical use of language that I would argue is NOT non repressed but is overly exaggerated

Not in every case, I am sure there are numerous gay men who are just at ease and as such comparatively more expressive than the norm BUT there are also a significant number who employ this gesture ridden screechiness for affect and to fit a stereotype


As for the original point, I would not find it in the least bit intrusive for a gay doctor to do wahtever was medically necessary to me. I would swap my current GP for a competent gay doctor in a flash
 
 
Ex
08:15 / 23.07.04
Thanks for elaborating.

It's great that you don't think people should have to adopt certain mannerisms just because of their sexuality or subculture. My conclusion from that would be that straight men shouldn't have to be so straight-acting the whole time; I see that as just as enforced and policed as camp in gay culture.
I see what you mean about 'Ultra-macho men'. But I think the average/normal/unremarkable is already skewed towards straight-acting-ness. I think we put up with a lot more excessive 'machismo' before it's even noticeable or annoying than we do 'camp'.

Anyway, more threadrot apologies.

I've been wondering since you mentioned camp about cross-gendered behaviour in professions, and medicine in particular. I've been taking notes for some high-profile women in my University this month and they all have aspects I'd call butch - brisk, competent, physically quite imposing, they're forceful in meetings (clearly all this is very subjective and probably just because I fancied them). However, these are all fairly advantageous qualities when you're in senior management. Would that still be true in medicine, or is there a demand for softer communication skills, shows of empathy, 'good bedside manner' and so forth? Where does that leave camp/non-straight-acting/feminine blokes?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:38 / 23.07.04
Joe, have you met Ganesh? Do you know if he presents as 'the only gay in the hospital'?
 
 
Joetheneophyte
08:41 / 23.07.04
Hmmmmmm

I don't know, the 'British' idea of a Consultant is The Brash but Brilliant Bully

Like the guy in the old Leslie Phillips films of the 1950's, whenever I hear the term Consultant or Surgeon, that big guy with the beard comes to mind.

Booming voice, always correct. A more recent media depiction was Anton whatever his name was in Holby City

His word was law and whilst not having to shout or boom, his authority and 'macho' ness was never called into question

Maybe the old gender distinctions are no longer needed. Women who act more authoratitive might remind us of Men and classified as Butch but maybe I am just a throwback and feel uncomfortable with the new realitites.
It is a shame that there can't be some middle ground where sensitivity and empathy go hand in hand with authority

I wonder where testosterone comes into all this?
I wonder whether the ladies who act more bullish already have a higher level of testosterone or by acting a certain way and having a certain demeanour, they increase their own testosterone levels?

Please note I am not saying they are more mannish.....I am just saying that their behaviour is what was ONCE classed as typically alpha male type behaviour. This is a minefield you have opened up here.........I am not articulate enough or politically correct enough to ensure I don't offend anybody here, as terms such as Gender, sexuality and sex cause no end of argument and confusion

Suffice to say that I would still suspect that it is harder for a male who exhibits a softer nature, to achieve success in most professions, inlcuding medicine

It might be construed as 'weakness'. Medicine is slightly different than most professions because you get to the top by merit and skill....something not always the case in office work, where being abully can in certain circumstances get you to the top. Or being able to manipulate the game well enough

A sensitive doctor whether male or female is able to rise to the top by showing proficiency in their work (ie their patients don't die or remain ill!)

But that said, I would still suspect that the doctors (male or female) who are 'go getters' and more ruthless would have a slight advantage. This behaviour is what was once considered 'male' and if two equally qualified doctors, one sensitive ...the other brash and more forceful, were to go for a promotion (sorry for the term, I know I am not articulating this well here)

my money would be on the latter.


The media does have a lot to do with this. Coronation Street continued the stereeotype that male nurses are predominantly gay (the figures might suggest so..I just don't know)

Consultants are portrayed as Demi Gogues whose authority is never questioned (and who are mostly portrayed as male)


Sorry Ganesh for sidelining your post, but I hope the subject is still of interest to you
 
 
Joetheneophyte
08:50 / 23.07.04
hey Our Lady

are you following me?
 
 
Joetheneophyte
08:54 / 23.07.04
actually I seem to remember Ganesh stating that there are other doctors who are more up front about their sexuality and he questioned whether he should be more like them

It must be hard, particularly as he is dealing with young men , often from cultures and backgrounds where homosexuality is severely frowned upon

I honestly don't know how he should proceed. If it would be damaging to the therapeutic/professional relationship to disclose, there might be an argument for a more clandestine approach but I would suspect each patient would have to be treated differently and no carte blanche approach would suffice
 
 
Ganesh
09:25 / 23.07.04
Why do you feel the need to come accross as 'camp'?

Why do you assume I had a "need" to be camp? I wanted to make a camp aside, so I did. One might as well take issue with the 95% of my post that isn't camp, and ask me why I felt the overwhelming need to be staid.

You might want to contribute to this thread, which is perhaps more relevant to the question of what constitutes appropriate behaviour for gay people in general.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
09:33 / 23.07.04
and in the same token, you have taken one comment out of the context of my whole post

Admittedly, it did pertain to you and was directed at you but I hoped that the rest of the post might explain my reasons for asking. It was not a jibe at you ....far from it, I was just opening up the thread which at the time was dropping down the board



I asked why we do the things we do. I for example feel the need when in company to come out with quips.....a peculiarity that many scousers suffer from....a lot of scousers feel the need to live up to some stereotypical happy joker image

I will not contribute to that thread you put the link up to, as I have had my say and hopefully explained my position. Maybe it was on the wrong thread but often I have found useful and interesting dialogue on Barbelith occurrs when somebdoy brings something unexpected and yet tentatively related to the subject in hand

I am sorry if offence was caused but I enjoyed the subsequent slight deviation in topic and Ex quite rightly pointed out the errors in my wordage, which I hope I corrected in my subsequent posts
 
 
Ganesh
09:48 / 23.07.04
I picked it out of your posting because it was framed as a "simple question" directed specifically at me, and because it was subsequently reiterated. Don't worry; I'll get to the rest later.

I made my "darling" comment because I enjoy camp humour. I feel it leavens otherwise rather dry subject matter, and in this case, it usefully combines irony (saying something clearly 'gay' in a thread about whether concealing my gayness should be an issue) and gentle self-deprecation (I'm ever-so-slightly taking the piss out of my own presumed self-importance) with an economy which appeals to me.

For those able to decode it, obviously,
 
 
Joetheneophyte
10:10 / 23.07.04
fair enough

I must have missed the subtlety and again, no offence was intended on my part

Ignorance is no excuse I freely admit but it is offered in the way of an explanation as to my actions
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:08 / 24.07.04
Joetheneophyte hey Our Lady are you following me?

I thought YOU were following ME!

actually I seem to remember Ganesh stating that there are other doctors who are more up front about their sexuality and he questioned whether he should be more like them

But why should you come to the conclusion from that that Ganesh presents as camp? That's two completely different issues...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:51 / 25.07.04
Nothing wrong with this and NO judgement on my part, he can speak how he wishes and it is no concern of mine

All I mentioned was that in my opinion, many gay men use an un-natural and stereotypical use of language that I would argue is NOT non repressed but is overly exaggerated

Not in every case, I am sure there are numerous gay men who are just at ease and as such comparatively more expressive than the norm BUT there are also a significant number who employ this gesture ridden screechiness for affect and to fit a stereotype


Some questions, Joe.

How do you know the motivations of this "significant number" of people?

What evidence has led you to the conclusion that they are doing it "for affect" (or even for effect)?

Who are you to say what kind of use of language is "natural" and "un-natural"? Give me an example of a relevant "natural" use of language and an "un-natural" use of language. Explain to me why one is natural and the other is not.

Does it not occur to you that deciding that there are "natural" uses of language and "un-natural" ones is, in fact, a judgement on your part? In fact, it's a value judgement, because you're assuming that certain ways of speaking and behaving with which you are familiar (what we might call the dominant mode of heterosexual male behaviour) are "natural" and therefore others are not.
 
 
Ganesh
17:20 / 25.07.04
And, again, would people perhaps like to direct more general 'why is Ganesh so fucking camp' queries toward this thread? I promise I'll address the issue more fully there...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:43 / 25.07.04
Personally, I don't give a fuck (of whatever kind) about my doctor's sexual activities (unless they're cute- unfortunately, the last cute doctor I saw was giving me a colonoscopy, which meant she was staring up my butt the whole time, which made conversation a little awkward... then I got OFF the bus...)

I've been thinking about this one for a while, which I why I haven't joined the thread yet. I think, for me, especially with a psychiatric doctor, while I wouldn't care too much about ANY aspect of their personal life, I WOULD want to know they were not lying to me about anything. If the subject came up, I'd want either to be told it was none of my fucking business or to be told the truth, whatever it was. For me, at any rate, being able to trust them would be an important issue in the same way as their sex life wouldn't.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
06:28 / 26.07.04
Hi

Sorry to take so long to reply, I have been offline for several days

Our Lady.....I did not mean to imply that Ganesh presents himself as 'Camp'....in fact I meant only the once instance IN the thread.
I have never met him and he might come accross as Arnold Schwarzenegger to his patients as far as I would know.
My comments pertained to this thread ONLY and Ganesh has already addressed this issue with me and I have nothing to add as he answered me succinctly.


Flyboy..........regarding the gentlemen that I spoke about, admittedly you are entirely correct, this is just my opinion and my own judgement is all I have to go on

The only justification I can give, is the old Bioenergetics, body language and Wilhelm Reich argument, in that......something just looks 'false' about the behaviour .....it looks premeditated. Having known some of these guys for sometime, there is also an increase in this type of behaviour in public settings. yes it is easy to counter and self evident that 'repressed' straight men act tougher and more 'lad like' in social settings. I find both behaviours false and rather silly for the most part.....just my opinion.

Anyway, I am sidelining here...... Ganesh has asked that any such future discussion on this matter goes to that other thread but I thought it only polite to answer where you might see it and where you wrote to me.

I may choose to pop over there sometime but be honest, if you were me and holding my beliefs, would you put yourself in the firing line of the people over there.....AND to be honest, I have nothing else to add. I have stated my point and am happy to PM with anybody over anything contained herein


Thanks for asking and NOTHING in this post was meant to be sarcastic or offensive. I am stating my honest opinion and that is all. Interesting topic and whilst sidelined (mostly by me), I think the conversation it has generated has been worthwhile
 
  

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