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Wilson Teaching Online Courses

 
  

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pornotaxi
10:53 / 24.06.04
as an impoverished child in the mid seventies i read a paperback by doctor magnus pike, which explained that by 1989 we would all be going about on moving pavements and flying cars, and no one would have to work ever again because computers would do everything, leaving everyone with lots of free wealth and leisure time. the bastard presented it as a fait accompli, and naturally i bought every word.

a useful lesson, in retrospect.
 
 
Planet B
12:42 / 24.06.04
Sekhmet keeps saying (s)he's not affiliated with the classes, it almost makes me suspicious. And then I got to thinking it's a RAW ploy of some sort. And then I really got to thinking that Gypsy Lantern is probably RAW trying to stir the old shit pot. Maybe I have read to much of this stuff.

Anyway, thanks Sekhmet for posting this. I for one am damn glad to know about it. I probably would never have known about this site without RAW. I went to the Disinfo convention back in 2000 in NYC to see him and others. It was my first exposure to GM, then I got all the Invisibles, found the 'Lith and have been lurking here ever since (posting rarely but reading often).
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:49 / 24.06.04
I think the main thing I've been trying to get at in this thread is highlight the fact that, as well as producing a lot of really good material, RAW has also written an awful lot that could arguably be described as bollocks. And that this is something that doesn't really get a lot of attention anywhere. There is a tendancy within a certain demograph (and I'm not specifically accusing anyone posting in this thread or even on this forum as being a part of that demograph, before you start) to take on all of Wilson's output wholesale and without much criticism. That's a bit dodgy. And in my opinion, a phenomena worthy of discussion in a thread about this author and his work. No?

The fact that my mere suggestion that some of his work might be a bit crap has caused such a flap, and seemingly caused various people to take my criticisms of RAW deeply personally, kind of speaks for itself to some degree. He's an author whose personality gets in the way of his text, and who people tend to identify with strongly and defend from all criticism as if he were their best Dad. What's that all about.

I've never said "everything the man has done is shit". Closest I've got to that was "Never trust a hippy", which I did write specifically in order to provoke a response. A bit blunt, yeah. But I'm quite interested in peoples responses to Wilson and his work, and I wanted to see what the reaction to an openly anti-RAW stance might be from Barbelith. In a sense, he's like the Morrissey of the occult world. In a lot of cases his cult of personality wallpapers over the fact that some of his output is a bit mediocre and certain aspects of his work are arguably a bit suspect. He inspires a passionate response from people. That's quite interesting, as it's kind of at odds with a lot of the stuff that Wilson actually writes about. There's almost an "either/or" filter on RAW as a cultural artefact and how it's acceptable/unacceptable to talk about him and discuss his work. I thought that was a plausible subject to try and approach in this thread.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:04 / 24.06.04
there was a time libertarian ment anarchist now it just means libertarian.

hyatt at least offers courses for free, or may be he just wants your life story so he can have a laugh.

but then so do sufis, gurus(of any worth) and any other spiritual and magickal mentors.

do you not think they are setting themselves up as authorities, after all that talk about experts? are they the experts on there fields now? are they the authority figures that know best about the anti authority deconditioning robot destroying anti zombie cry " i have brains". i mean are they? trade in one set of purportedly concensus beliefs for ones that arent, apparently?

think for yourself? by thinking like me? cry out on mass we are all individuals!!!

prepackaged narrative rebellion like prepackaged rebellious lifestyles i bought the rebellious stuff so i must be one, right?

they both have some good ideas enough for one book between them or perhaps a series of magazine articles, better to go to there sources in my opinion, start with reich, then make an orgone vibrator and stick it up your ass. keep a diary of results. eventually you will feel ok.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:49 / 24.06.04
do you not think they are setting themselves up as authorities, after all that talk about experts? are they the experts on there fields now? ...trade in one set of purportedly concensus beliefs for ones that arent, apparently?....i bought the rebellious stuff so i must be one, right?

I think there is that aspect about Wilson and Hyatt. You can see a discernable meta-narrative of: "You suffer from conditioning. I have deconditioned myself. Therefore a deconditioned person thinks exactly like me". Which is appalling. Whenever you raise it, someone inevitably pipes up with: "But good old RAW always tells people to think for themselves!". Well, yeah... he does do that, but at the same time there is the subtext that thinking for yourself involves thinking along some fairly specific lines that have already been decided for you.

The form of agnosticism that RAW promotes is in itself a bit suspect, as he can get a bit fascistic about it sometimes. "When you enter Chapel Perilous, you come out either agnostic or a stone paranoid. There is no third way". So basically, you either think exactly like me or you are mad. The agnostic position, as RAW describes it, is really just another possible model for framing unquantifiable experience, with no more or less validity than the beliefs of a confirmed atheist, hoodoo doc or devout Catholic. RAW might, in theory, pay lip service to that, but he does give the impression that his own preferred model is far superior because it takes in the bigger picture. And I'm not entirely convinced that it's really as simple as that.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
19:28 / 24.06.04
Hyatt, in my limited experience, is definately suspect on the repetition and personality-cult fronts. Wilson doesn't seem AS suspect but he's definately in the league. And this all harkens back to the question positively HAUNTING this board, whichizz, "Now what?"

Chaos magic has become a dogma. Great. It's like goth-punk culture in high school. BE WEIRD! BE DIFFERENT! JUST SIGN YER NAME AND HERE'S YOUR NEW BOOTS... But this doesn't mean there is no cutting edge. What is most likely is that the 'cutting edge' is currently a series of small-front evolutions that will later, in retrospect, be seen as a "movement."

To define a "cutting edge" is not necessary. Why do we need one? I am new to the game, compared to some here, and chaos magic, The Invisibles, and I'm sure many other trite-and-true sources have proven very inspiring. I'm no devotee and INSPIRING is the key word - propelling me into some serious action, growth, and creation. But these "old" sources were still the catalysts. I can't put a definition on where I am now, either as a person, a magician, or anything else that is some aspect of my being. And there doesn't need to be one.

The whole point of the RAW thread then: in a world-view encouraging "Nothing is true" and "Think for yourself" and "Decondition yourself," why must there be labels and terms and borderlines for every step in these directions?
 
 
cirranon
20:25 / 24.06.04
From my point of view, RAW is merely giving HIS perspective on information that has been knocking around the world since time immemorial. I mean, this is basic Mystery School information - and in my opinion the more versions of it out there, the better. At the base level, RAW, Grant Morrison, Philip K. Dick, Plato, Carlos Castaneda, Georges Gurdjieff, Wilhelm Reich, Helena Blavatsky, Aleister Crowley, Alice Bailey, Patanjali, Douglas Adams, Boris Moravieff and the Wachowski Brothers - all are saying the SAME THING -

People are trapped by their perceptions. They see what they have been taught to see. There are ways for you to use the tool you've been given, (the mind/body complex), to widen that perception. Parts of the process are gonna suck (chapel perilous, initiation, etc.) - but it appears that at least some of that difficulty causes brainstate changes which are important if you are interested.

The difference comes in the form, (the way one explores the information, and what one does with it afterwards), but the substance appears to be the same. And it is DEFINITELY in the form of RAWs writings - where his own Reality Tunnel interferes with the message he's trying to communicate - that there is room for criticism. He even does it himself - in the preface to the 2000 edition of Sex, Drugs and Magic - where he admits that some of the case studies he presented were partially fabricated. He also admits that he was wrong in his belief that our society would never allow the marketing of an aphrodisiac - as Viagra has proven ;-)

As has been said, RAW seems to be the AC/DC of the counter-culture/philosophy world - he's written the same book MANY times, each time saying the same thing, to make certain that his ideas on the subject are available to everyone regardless of taste. He might be more inclined to move on to a different topic if it looked like anyone was paying attention - although I prefer his reaction to, say, that of Bill Hicks, who in his frustration merely berated his audience for being too stupid and sleepy to see what was going on.

And, as far as his predictions regarding a utopian future, it appears to me that his major miscalculation was in regards to human socialization rather than technological capability. People interested should check out The Hunt For Zero Point by the aviation editor for Jane's Defense weekly. That at least makes a VERY VERY strong argument for the fact that the pie-in-the-sky science discussed in the late 50s was actually real, but has for one reason or another been kept from the general public. So, making predictions based on what science was saying at the time seems to me not to be optimistic rather than merely informed.

I for one am excited about being able to interact directly with him. I would love to have been able to do the same thing with Douglas Adams before he died, or Tolkien, or Crowley - or any number of thoughtful, entertaining people that are no longer accessible. I would have certainly paid $125 to get a chance to take a lecture series from any of those guys. The chance to personally pick Wilson's brains regarding the VERY TOPICS we have discussed here - "Why do you think so much of what you have taught for so long is still considered Fringe?" - etc., seems worth the price o' admission.
 
 
farseer /pokes out an i
20:26 / 24.06.04
"You suffer from conditioning. I have deconditioned myself. Therefore a deconditioned person thinks exactly like me". Which is appalling. Whenever you raise it, someone inevitably pipes up with: "But good old RAW always tells people to think for themselves!". Well, yeah... he does do that, but at the same time there is the subtext that thinking for yourself involves thinking along some fairly specific lines that have already been decided for you. "

Brains are funny! I've read many of RAW's works and never drew these conclusions (and it's not from a lack of analysis.) I've never taken the conclusion that RAW is explicitly or subtley stating that you should think X or Y is you're "really" deconditioned. I took away from his work, which influenced me pretty early, that "thinking for yourself is part of the process. Everyone has their own conclusions. Here are my conclusions, which will probably be different from yours. take what you want. These are my experiences." It did good things for me, and I've happily watched the same kind of waking-up increase "awareness" happen in the lives of those who I've turned onto those ideas via RAW.

Some folks dig RAW the guy. Some dig RAW the guru. Some dig RAW the Playboy LETTERS editor (LOL, I sure did). Some like the whole package. Same things can be said for Morrison, or any other personality that has reached beyond their own circle.

It's perfectly groovy with me that you have gotten something else out of his writing. I'd expect for different folks to cotton to different strokes (or whatnot). In broad terms, I agree with Sekmet. I think that the attitudes, conclusions, and resultant actions speak louder of the reader (or poster, in this instance) then the author, in any case.

(and if anybody takes offense at this post, there is a happy, humorour psychic tongue sticking out in your general direction.)
 
 
farseer /pokes out an i
20:39 / 24.06.04
Closest I've got to that was "Never trust a hippy", which I did write specifically in order to provoke a response. A bit blunt, yeah

Actually, I think it's called "Trolling" From the Barbelith's own etiquette links:
To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself.
 
 
---
21:00 / 24.06.04
farseer, i think that post was a little in jest and even if it wasn't, i wouldn't call Gypsy Lantern anything like your average troll.

I agree with the criticism of this :

"When you enter Chapel Perilous, you come out either agnostic or a stone paranoid. There is no third way".

Simply because i believe there are a myriad of ways in which you can leave chapel perilous and don't think that it's anything like an A or B situation, as much as i respect the man.

Maybe one of the problems is his own level of fame works both ways for him and also that there aren't many people who are in his position and able to talk about these things whilst being so well known. There are people like him, a lot of them i'm sure, but he probably takes a lot of flak simply because of how well known he is.

Another possible aspect is that maybe because a lot of people think that the knowledge he has is centered around the 8 - circuit theory he probably doesn't have much else to talk about, and as far as i remember he has quite a bit more to him in the way of good advice.

Finally, another thing i remember him being so good at was the art of deliberate brain change through reading his work, something which puts the mind in a state of chaos for good or ill, probably why he speaks about chapel perilous in the way he does, literally anything can happen, just like in the intitiation scenario.

Good luck to him anyway, i'm sure he'll have a few words of wisdom for many of the people that take this offer up, as long as they don't expect him to solve all of their problems for them.
 
 
cirranon
21:13 / 24.06.04
"When you enter Chapel Perilous, you come out either agnostic or a stone paranoid. There is no third way".

I agree with the critique of this statement thus far. This statement seems out of keeping with his typical tone. (Quantum Psychology being my main intro to RAW, I am definitely more used to the E Prime, Certitudeless approach he espouses). I would expect something more along the lines of "When one has an experience which I describe as encountering 'Chapel Perilous,' it seems to me that it would be impossible to come away unchanged."

The intro to the 2000 edition of Sex, Drugs and Magic that I mentioned above is a GREAT take on RAW's approach to the changes in his opinion that have occurred over the past half century. He basically states "Yeah, the Robert Anton Wilson who wrote this book was a nice guy, and had some good ideas, but also had some bad ideas, and some not-so-well-thought-out ideas. Since I share the same body with him, though, I guess I'd better try anbd make some sense of what I wrote."

And so he changed the book in over 100 places.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
22:48 / 24.06.04
Excellent!

Actually, I think it's called "Trolling" From the Barbelith's own etiquette links:

Fuck you, mate! If you have any structured argument that engages with any of my points then I’d love to hear it. Chances are I’ll eat you and your dad for breakfast, or maybe you’ll eat me and my dad for breakfast? Until you actually say anything of interest or relevance it’s all up in the air isn’t it. Surprise me. Make a fucking point rather than a snide remark.

He basically states "Yeah, the Robert Anton Wilson who wrote this book was a nice guy, and had some good ideas, but also had some bad ideas, and some not-so-well-thought-out ideas. Since I share the same body with him, though, I guess I'd better try anbd make some sense of what I wrote."

Ultimate respect for that. But the problem is, that this sort of change in mindset tends to be glossed over when people with as much cultural cache as Wilson are introduced into a discussion. There’s a tendency to consider an author as a consistent static viewpoint rather than a fluctuating ever shifting laboratory of experience. And that’s something that I feel should receive more attention.
 
 
--
02:56 / 25.06.04
How the hell does anyone really know if they've become "deconditioned" anyway? By RAW's standards it seems to be "do the opposite of whatever you think/do/believe". But then aren't you just trading one type of conditioning for another?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:53 / 25.06.04
Hmmm. Perhaps a bit out of order last night. I should really get a drunk lock fitted on my computer that stops me from logging on after I've had a few too many. I think that was the textual equivalent of football hooliganism. I am Godzilla. You are Croydon. Not going to apologise though, as I dislike being called a troll in a thread that I'm quite clearly putting effort into.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
16:04 / 26.06.04
How about this...

I like RAW's work.

I like RAW's sense of humour.

I, like many others, have been guilty of thinking RAW can do no wrong. Thankfully, that's in the past. I met him, he was a nice guy, and is just as flawed as the rest of us. I don't think RAW claims he is "DeConditioned", simply that your personality (or meme) is fluid, and can be changed in an informed manner.

I'd be keen on taking his online class, but am not too bothered that I don't have the cash.

And, if this topic is any indication, you make a habit of posting troll-ish, dogmatic things when drunk. To be honest, making blanket generalizations like "Never trust a hippy" is as ignorant from a logical perspective as making blanket statements like "All cops are assholes." It doesn't wash when observed for any length of time.

Maybe it's Leary's Second Circuit talking, but also, maybe laying off the drunken posting is a good idea.
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:41 / 26.06.04
before you enrol in his classes check out this page as an alternative reality tunnel that in my estimation i find closer to the modern world in my own experience. especially the stuff by bob black
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
22:52 / 26.06.04
Thanks thats a great link. However it has nothing to do with this topic.

Raw doesn't push a REALITY TUNNEL. He informs us about them and how we make them and use them. Totally different level of discussion. RAW teaches meta realities. Thats Magic.

Me I want to take the course about illuminatus! I mean to be able to actually interact with the author about his work? thats worth the price of admission. I'd love to do the same with Joyce, Burroughs, Morrison, or hell even Anne Rice. He's teaching courses about his one work how is he not the expert on that?

Plus I would love to take the Pound/Joyce course he has. I've paid way more for courses that were less interesting. The only difference is that they were usually accredited.

There’s a tendency to consider an author as a consistent static viewpoint rather than a fluctuating ever shifting laboratory of experience. And that’s something that I feel should receive more attention.

It has received attention... from Robert Anton Wilson. Why do you think he worked so hard to push the General Semantics anti-is business?

RAW has also written an awful lot that could arguably be described as bollocks

Put up or shut up. What has he written that's oh so bullocks?
 
 
Unconditional Love
03:01 / 27.06.04
R.A.W. pushes his reality tunnel,mate and you best believe it, the reason i offer that link, is because mr wilson is a futurist extropian neo liberal, yes he is! those concepts.

and the ideas at the above link have everything to do with challenging that stance.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:43 / 27.06.04
Flawed though he may be (and to be honest, I'd be kind of suspicious if he seemed NEVER to fuck up occasionally... THEN I'd really start questioning my response to his work) I'd be fascinated to sign up, for many of the reasons outlined about. But I can't afford it.
And to go back to one of the questions raised MUCH earlier on, I don't think there's anything wrong with what he's doing here. Getting stuff published (either in print or online) is his JOB. And he deserves to get paid for it, same as any of us do for OUR jobs.

And yeah, when I was a lot younger I did tend to take it all as gospel, like you do when you're fifteen or whatever (and yes, it DOES make me cringe to remember the total dick I was a s a kid). I don't anymore... but that doesn't mean I'm chucking it all out. (And it's also true that if I'd never read Illuminatus I'd never have developed an interest in magick, psychedelics, James Joyce or Burroughs. And for those things I'll always have a soft spot for the old bugger.)

Anyway... that's my couple of euros on the subject... the actual POINT of this post is to ask Sekhmet or anyone else who DOES do the course to promise to post a follow-up thread afterwards and let us know how it went. (Not necessarily the content per se- as I said before, the guy has a perfect right to charge money for that, and I have no wish to steal it. I'm just interested in how he comes across in that situation and whether you think it is/was a worthwhile thing to do.)
 
 
SteppersFan
07:58 / 28.06.04
> I should really get a drunk lock fitted on my computer

Thought you were in a bad mood Gypsy! I think that in your criticisms you were mixing up "what's wrong with Bob and his writings" and "what's wrong with Bob's readers". Certainly, in my experience there's no lack of people queueing up to slag off RAW, especially on the left. In fact the principle critic of RAW is... well, RAW, as anyone who's seen him lecture would confirm. I've got a tape of him somewere...

I thought the jibe about Leary jibe was just silly though.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:48 / 28.06.04
Put up or shut up. What has he written that's oh so bullocks?

Do I really have to go back and outline my specific criticisms of RAW and his work for a third time? Am I writing in martian? Did you bother to read the entire thread before posting?

And, if this topic is any indication, you make a habit of posting troll-ish, dogmatic things when drunk. To be honest, making blanket generalizations like "Never trust a hippy" is as ignorant from a logical perspective as making blanket statements like "All cops are assholes." It doesn't wash when observed for any length of time.

Look, its a bit twatish to go searching through old threads to draw attention to a previous instance where I've made a silly drunken post, specifically to try and undermine a perspective on a completely different subject that you happen to disagree with. But we'll let that slide, eh. My initial "never trust a hippy" comment was posted in all sobriety, and I've since gone on to expand upon and quantify my thoughts and perspectives on Wilson, his work, and his media profile at some length during the course of this discussion. You seem very keen on completely ignoring all of that. Wonder why that could be?

If you want to quote my initial throwaway comment out of context and construct a strawman argument around it, rather than address any aspect of what I've actually been saying within this thread, that's fine. But it's not particularly interesting and doesn't add a great deal to the discussion. Of course "Never trust a hippy" is a flawed logical proposition. Thanks for pointing that one out. If that were the entirity of my argument you might have something approaching a point to make.

For the record, the only post I've made in this thread whilst inebriated is my response to being called a troll, which given my other contributions to this thread, I think was entirely justified, if a little lary.
 
 
Sekhmet
12:28 / 28.06.04
(*peeks head around corner*)

Mr. Stoat - I've signed up for the first course, and I have friends who have signed up for others. I'll let y'all know how it goes and whether it was worth the investment.

(*scoots away from scary thread*)
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:06 / 28.06.04
I think that in your criticisms you were mixing up "what's wrong with Bob and his writings" and "what's wrong with Bob's readers".

Possibly, but I think that the two are intimately linked. His personality and status as a counter cultural icon gets in the way of his work and tends to discourage an objective reading of his texts. Basically, all I'm saying in this thread is that, whilst admiring a lot of RAWs output, I personally find some his ideas, perspectives and authorial tone to be a bit questionable. And I've quite clearly outlined what these criticism are further up in the thread. Twice. But it seems this is a completely outlandish trollish perspective that I should be ashamed of forwarding, for some weird reason. What's that all about? Does it really have to be all or nothing with Bob? Why is it so difficult to grasp that I'm not rubbishing the man's entire existence, but expressing a few personal qualms I have about him and his work. Am I not allowed to do that? Do the knee jerk reactions prevalent on this thread not suggest that there's a weird and not entirely savoury relationship between RAWs writing, his public persona, and the reception of his work? And is that not entirely at odds with a lot of the major themes in RAWs output that people are presumably aligning themselves with. Am I banging my head against a brick wall? From some of the responses on this thread, you'd think all I've been saying the whole time is "I hate him! I hate him! I hate him!" or something.

Getting stuff published (either in print or online) is his JOB. And he deserves to get paid for it, same as any of us do for OUR jobs.

I've never once disputed that. He can do what he wants, as can the people who choose to sign up for his course. What I am trying to look at is the notion of "At Last! The Invisible College!" and how that seems to be odds with RAWs admonitions about the fallibility of "experts". I think that this contradiction is subtly present in a lot of RAWs work, but tends to be glossed over. It's almost as if - by telling his readers to think for themselves and be aware of their reality tunnels - he is automatically exempt from any sort of criticism. As if the act of saying "think for yourself" every now and again, somehow cancels out the possibility of any bias in his writing. All I'm trying to do is have a conversation about that.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:43 / 28.06.04
(whispers)
Sekhmet- cheers, mate!
(/whispers)
 
 
Glandmaster
12:58 / 22.12.04
Interview with the Maybe Logic film maker and founder of the Maybe Logic Academy.
 
 
Sekhmet
14:50 / 22.12.04
Oh dear god. I was so rather hoping this thread would sink to the murky depths of the Temple, never to be seen again...

While it's up here, though, did anyone take anything? It turned out that we couldn't afford to pay for two class enrollments, so my husband signed up and did most of the participation and I, erm, read over his shoulder a lot. RAW assigned craploads of reading, movie watching and other things, there were some interesting discussions, he disappeared for a bit because he got really sick, but he came back. And he doesn't mind if people call him Uncle Bob. All in all, a worthwhile investment if you're a fan of RAW and if you have the time to really participate. There are forums and discussion groups that ended up reading a lot like Barbelith forums, which was interesting.

(That said, I'm still sorry about the brouhahah that this thread kicked up when it originated, and I have to remark in passing that at the time I was a relative newbie, and thought GL was a bit of an arsehole, but have since come to have enormous respect for him, and I hope there are no hard feelings. I was being kind of a drip.)
 
 
---
17:03 / 22.12.04
Mods : can you take the w out of the < a href = in Glandmasters link please so it will work? (I just checked the source and saw the typo, maybe's he's already put in the request, I don't know.)

Here's his link anyway
 
 
Sekhmet
17:09 / 22.12.04
A few people we are considering for future courses are Peter Carroll, Grant Morrison, Phil Hines, Eric Davis and Luke Rhinehart...

Besides RAW and Rushkoff we are featuring courses by Alan Clements and R U Sirius.


Not just RAW anymore. Probably a good move...
 
  

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