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Commonplace Racism.

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Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes

15:31 / 24.02.02

I believe racism is racism whoever is expressing it. I don’t agree with the view that white people should feel guilty about the history of black exploitation and accept abuse for it. Is this racist? I come from a working class background. The working class were exploited, but not to the same extent as other races, and have gained their rights through their own struggle. It is often claimed that in this country we live off the exploits of the slave trade and the present economic exploitation of countries in Africa and other countries. Indeed several large companies have their roots in the slave trade, e.g. Tate & Lyle, but I only feel responsible in my apathy, or inability to tackle, continuing racist exploitation, not because I am white. My criticism is not aimed at black people who have a grievance against whites but at the PC brigade who are a bunch of self righteous pricks

PS I don’t think I’ve ever actually met a “PC person” they only seem to exist in the media.

16:13 / 24.02.02

I think I'd have to agree with nearly all of dat Wirebaby.

quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:
First part of the ol' Hippocratic Oath (which, amazingly, I do remember at least in part) is 'do no harm'. If you can't Do The Right Thing, try not to make the situation worse...

[devil's advocate]As a doc, would you treat a racist, an active BNP, non-white-bashing racist, who was bleeding to death? 'Cos surely that would be doing harm, at least in the long term?[/devil's advocate]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by panarchy:
My criticism is not aimed at black people who have a grievance against whites but at the PC brigade who are a bunch of self righteous pricks

Cease your phallogocentrism you patriarchofascist monster!

PS I don’t think I’ve ever actually met a “PC person” they only seem to exist in the media.

They exist on this board. God knows, some people might think I am one. Though some prolly think quite the opposite.

I don't know whether I'm against positive discrimination or not. It's just too damn complicated for ma lil' hay-ead.

[ 24-02-2002: Message edited by: Bill Posters ]

16:20 / 24.02.02

Yes, I would and do treat individuals with racist views on a regular basis. I'm not sure the Hippocratic definition of 'harm' stretches quite that far beyond the immediate situation...

16:22 / 24.02.02

Have you ever 'accidently' bumped one off, or had them locked away and sedated for ever? (Not an entirely serious question of course, but um, couldn't such a thing be considered ethical, in a way?)

17:09 / 24.02.02

quote:PS I don’t think I’ve ever actually met a “PC person” they only seem to exist in the media.

I've never met one first-hand either, I've only ever met racists first-hand.

I have reliable second-hand reports but they usually seem to be people who are utterly incompetent and just trying to preserve their jobs by saying every person who criticises them is racist/sexist.

Then again, what you define as a "PC" person is going to depend on a lot... I expect lots of people out there would classify me as PC as well. Generally, it's a rather imprecise word with automatic negative connotations.

17:13 / 24.02.02

quote:Originally posted by Bill Posters:
Have you ever 'accidently' bumped one off, or had them locked away and sedated for ever? (Not an entirely serious question of course, but um, couldn't such a thing be considered ethical, in a way?)

No.

09:56 / 25.02.02

After two pages of 'I met a racist once' comments, maybe it would be more productive to shift from anecdote to analysis -- like answering SJ's 'what should i have done' question (as some people have done) or thinking that, maybe, 'commonplace racism' extends beyond that strange, subhuman species, The Racist (recognisable by drunkenness, stupidity, not being you, etc.)

It just seems kind of nauseating to read so many slightly defensive posts from white kids saying 'Yeah, I had a run-in with a racist and I slapped him down' or 'I didn't slap him down and I STILL FEEL BAD ABOUT IT', as if to score your proper anti-racist points. Is that really the only way racism effects your life?

PS - If somebody came into a meeting I was part of and said 'there's a black guy out there who told me to fuck off because i'm white', i'd be pretty inclined to treat him like an idiot as well.

09:56 / 25.02.02

dread pirate crunchy - i'm not sure of your point here. i certainly don't agree that anecdotes are useless; surely dealing with racists on a personal, day to day level is probably more important than anything else. i used to be in the anti nazi league and have my little card to wave around and feel like a good anti racist, but standing up against racists - in the classroom at school, or on the street - is far more dangerous, and potentially far more constructive. racist behaviour should be challenged, white people should be seen to be allies (in the same way as straight people should be seen to be queer allies).

if no one had responded to this post, then the 'white kids' of barbelith could easily have been accused of either not giving a shit about the issue or of being racist themselves - silence being collusion and all. and i really, honestly don't understand why it's okay to tell a white person to 'fuck off', again, in the same way that i would never tell a straight ally to fuck off.

09:56 / 25.02.02

well i wasn't saying it was okay - i just meant if a white guy i'd never met walked into a room and said, 'that black guy just told me to fuck off because i'm white', i would think he had done something idiotic and was now either actively lying about it, or too stupid to work it out. for much the same reasons if some straight guy said, 'that gay guy told me to fuck off because i'm straight', i would assume he was a bit of a dickhead.

anyway, i probably wasn't that clear so here is my anecdote to clear it up(?) a few years ago a rightwing populist politician named pauline hanson started her own political party, one nation, in australia. she was widely regarded as some crazy racist by liberals, but i still don't really see how she was worse than the 'proper' political leaders (beside the point). her party was a recruiting bonanza for trot groups, who would go to her meetings and flog papers like nobody's business.

so one day, she came to my home town of frankston. frankston is, basically, a mostly white working class outer suburb of melbourne. some trot groups organised buses, like they were doing for all her meetings, to bring their student support base out of the inner city to protest. they came and set up - and monopolised - a megaphone, letting exactly one local person speak on it.

what really shitted me, though, was that they acted as if 'racists' were some other species, that anyone who wanted to go to the meeting was automatically one of them, and that anyone who didn't dress like a socialist student was one of them. whenever locals approached, whether they were there for the meeting, the protest, or just out of curiosity, the trots would scream that they were racist scum.

it seems to me that there's been a bit of that in this thread - the 'racists are another species' line of thinking, as if racism is an on-off switch or a gene you either have or don't. it just strikes me as an excuse not to think about either your own responsibility for racism, or institutionalised racism.

more generally, hearing a long string of white folk talk about how horrible it is to deal with racists strikes me as almost laughable.

ps - another thread maybe - what is an 'ally'? have been hearing this lately, esp. in US contexts, not sure...

09:56 / 25.02.02

I think I have to agree with shortfatdyke here. I don't think it's very helpful to say: "Yes, yes, enough of the true-life experiences, but let's talk about the theory here."
Analysis is fine, but I think someone like Sweet Jane is going to get a bit more from people who have been in similar situations than being subjected to several rambling posts filled with received wisdom.

09:56 / 25.02.02

dpc - thanks for some clarification there. i would agree on certain points: some elements in left wing politics have declared to me that racists are 'mad', that having short hair and a footie shirt = nazi and that there is only one method (theirs) to oppose them.

perhaps i should have acknowledged in my post that i do have white priviledge, therefore i see the effects of racism (even in my trade union workplace) but cannot suffer from it. however, challenging a racist can not be just 'horrible', it can be fucking dangerous. apart from the possibility of being attacked for being a 'nigger/paki lover', i personally have the added risk of being queerbashed. which is always a possibility anyway. doesn't mean i want some kind of medal for challenging racists, but i do have some element of self-preservation and if i put my personal safety at risk then i am going to feel afraid.

that being said, i have been and will continue to be seen and heard as an anti-racist. i would hope to respect and learn from other cultures. that's what i mean by being an ally. same as the straight folks who i feel comfortable with because they respect my difference.

09:56 / 25.02.02

quote:Originally posted by Dread Pirate Crunchy:
it seems to me that there's been a bit of that in this thread - the 'racists are another species' line of thinking, as if racism is an on-off switch or a gene you either have or don't. it just strikes me as an excuse not to think about either your own responsibility for racism, or institutionalised racism.

Actually I think this thread is probably really about collusion with racism - isn't that the point of Sweet Jane's story? That he felt uncomfortable because he had colluded with racism rather than confronting it. I admit we haven't got on to institutional racism yet, but that might be a good direction to take now.

12:41 / 25.02.02

It takes a LOT of courage to speak up when somebody makes a racist comment. I have a personal vow with myself to always at the very least express some disagreement but I have let some racist comments go (and just hated myself afterward).

If there was a threat of bodily harm, I am not sure what I would do. I like to think that I would risk it and take what I got, but I don't want to end up in the hospital, or dead.

I just think it is very important to let people know that it is NOT OK to make racist comments and that you don't agree with them. Silence can be implicit agreement. It sends the message that "I am cool with your nigger jokes," say. MOST of the time, when you DO say something, people get uncomfortable, as they well should. I feel that deep down people KNOW such generalizations are wrong.

But each situation is of course different.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

14:03 / 25.02.02

You might feel that you're not going to make a difference by expressing disapproval, but I think of it as a "drip, drip, drip" effect, like water on rock. Each individual drop might not make any difference, but eventually the rock will be eroded. A bit. Maybe.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

14:23 / 25.02.02

After being at a party where someone made some stupid racist comment, I decided I'd simply chuck anyone who did that in my house out of the place.

Either by good fortune or because this resolve is apparent in my conversation, it has yet to happen.

14:28 / 25.02.02

I've done that, Nick - asked someone to leave "because I won't have that sort of stuff said in my house. So would you please go, if you're going to talk like that?"
Cue hideous, awkward silence where everyone looked at the floor - and then he apologised. I'm glad i did and I'd do it again. But it's easier in your own house, surrpunded by your own friends, than elsewhere - he wasn't likely to hit me in those circumstances.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

14:37 / 25.02.02

You rock.

Which was already obvious, but it bears saying again.

20:05 / 25.02.02

Hmm. Paranoid old me can't tell if you're being sarky or not, Nick.

This whole thread came back to me tonight, at High St Kensington tube station. I got talking to this guy about T'ai Chi and yoga and spirituality - not yer average tube chat but good.

And then out of the blue: "There ARE some good muslims, but there are so many fundamentalists, out to destroy Christians..." this from a man who had just described himself as a pagan fetishist "and yet we STILL keep letting them into the country."

I was totally thrown. I said something like, look, if that's your view I really don't want to talk to you. I totally disagree.
And so he changed the subject... to his theory that desktop PCs are evil. At which point, you know, you have to just nod and back away. I tried pointing out that, far from having some advanced AI, my PC is as dumb as your average fishfinger, but he was having none of it.

I've no idea why I'm telling you all this, other than the amount of wine I've drunk. But it's fucking depressing when the pagan T'ai Chi fetishists start coming out with this shite along with the rest of the Daily Mail readers.

20:07 / 25.02.02

And can anyone tell me what a pagan fetishist actually IS? Other than someone with a fear of computers and muslims?

20:20 / 25.02.02

somebody with a fetish for pagans?

20:25 / 25.02.02

Ah yes - I've met a few of those!

16:10 / 26.02.02

Originally posted by Dead Pirate Crunchy:

It just seems kind of nauseating to read so many slightly defensive posts from white kids

Aren't you assuming something here?

Less searchable M0rd4nt

18:21 / 26.02.02

quote:Originally posted by Ariadne:
And can anyone tell me what a pagan fetishist actually IS?

Well, I've got a slight problem with my Alyson Hannigan fixation...

pointless and uncalled for

18:25 / 26.02.02

quote:Originally posted by Mordant C@rnival:

Well, I've got a slight problem with my Alyson Hannigan fixation...

I think everyone has one of these. I can't go near a music shop without thinking some very bad thought.

And then there was the time that I met a person who's every sentance carried the manner and cadences of "And one time, at band camp..........."

Less searchable M0rd4nt

19:24 / 26.02.02

But the Hannigan issue is more complicated for me. I'm 50% of a het shackup job; my bread usually isn't buttered that side. It's like the whole Darlene thing over again, only worse! <sobs>

[ 26-02-2002: Message edited by: Mordant C@rnival ]

We're The Great Old Ones Now

20:38 / 26.02.02

Ariadne: quote:Hmm. Paranoid old me can't tell if you're being sarky or not, Nick.Fuck no! That was your genuine respect, one hundred percent unfiltered all natural, contains caffeine, may cause bouncing up and down and cheering.

The Rest Of You: What the hell is it with Willow? I mean doi... Can none of you see that Anya is the goddess of lust?

Crunchy: I can't make out if y'all are peeved at appropriated pain or white kids complaining that people are racist about them.

(This post contains no irony. This message does not affect your statutary rights. THe value of your theories can go down as well as up.)

Less searchable M0rd4nt

23:00 / 26.02.02

quote:Originally posted by Nick:
Can none of you see that Anya is the goddess of lust?

I think Anya must be a boy thing.

02:13 / 27.02.02

/shameful contribution to thread rot/

MC, it appears to be a Nick thing. I'm on a campus with about a thousand male Buffy fans, all of whom have a thing for Allison Hannigan, first and final. I think arguments could be made for most of the cast though, on relative merits....

02:18 / 27.02.02

Back on-topic and in relation to Sweet Jane's original post.

The shit thing about a situation like the one you described it that the kind of individual you're talking about - namely drunk and venting/bragging - likely doesn't want to discuss, or even hear, your difference of opinion. Furthermore, being intoxicated and [at least] presenting a violent image of themselves, there is the possibility of getting yourself into a fight.
A pointless fight, as no ideological changes are likely to be forthcoming from it. Indeed, even walking away can be perceived as a sign of disagreement, and thus a trigger for aggression.

[ 27-02-2002: Message edited by: [monkeys violating the temple] ]

02:48 / 27.02.02

When reading the title of this post, the first thing that came to mind was not a specific case of someone using a bigotted epithet, but rather some of the general characterizations of different ethnic groups that seem to be impressed into the consciousness of the average US citizen [or so it seems sometimes].

The biggest one, and it really drives me berserk beacuse it's constantly replicated in the US news, is that only Western Europe and the United States are fully "rational" communities, in the good old-fashioned Greek sense. Every other ethnic group, culture, and national political body possesses only a marginal state of rationality, a sort of unsuccessful mimicry.

For example, when Pakistan and India began their tandem nuclear testing, everyone started doom-saying, with the subtextual point that "those people" would use their nuclear arsenals at the slightest pretexts.

Muslim culture was similarly generalized and tarred following the international congress on women's rights. The easy characterization was of people kitty-cornered by their own tradition, who, like Freud's primitive/hysterics, were incapable of transcending the taboos of their intrenched belief system. In essence the weight of individual agency to agree or dissent from tradition was lifted from the shoulders of a billion people.

A similar sub-humanization, one masked as benevolent, occurs within the very body of the liberalism.
There is a constant re-characterization of Native peoples, those whose technological systems never developed beyond forager, pastoralism, or horticulture. Such communitiesare denied the status of intellectual development in the sense of rational governance of action, and instead molded and lionized as archtypes of instinctual, intuitive thought...a position set in contrast to "Western logic." This rude caricaturing takes place in the pages of every pseudo-Castaneda texts that uses semantically loaded terms such as "wise/wisdom," and "natural." While this kind of postioning elevates these cultures as a symbol, it degrades the individual actors and the culture's learning-tradition.

And dare I mention the sitcoms on UPN?

The Natural Way

06:47 / 27.02.02

Most blokes I know have an Anya thing. I have an Anya and Willow thing. I don't have a Buffy thing. She has a weird, cartilagey nose.

And now on with the racist bashing....

We're The Great Old Ones Now

08:08 / 27.02.02

quote:MC, it appears to be a Nick thing.Any man more right than his neighbours constitutes a majority of one. - Emerson.

Profiling...now there's a thought. Profiling is abstraction. It's one of our main mental tools - abstracting the secret of fire from the information that on this occasion rubbing two bits of rock together made a spark.

But abstraction is also the root of terror - if you're dealing with people as abstracts (either as profiles or stats) you don't have to engage with them as individuals worthy of empathy. You create and deal with an image, a generalised notion. It's why I mistrust group-based ideologies - from Marx to Keynes - because I think they lean to terror by their nature.

But can we function without it?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

08:40 / 27.02.02

I partially agree with dpc- to assume racists are "the other" is an easy cop-out. Surely the scary thing is that these people (of whatever colour or prejudice) ARE to a very large extent the same as us...
However, I disagree that just because I'm a white straight male I'm not allowed to have a problem with the bahaviour and attitudes of people who are quite blatantly offensive. (Although I don't think you were actually SAYING that, I think it could be kind of inferred, and I think that's a fairly dangerous attitude in itself).
"Political correctness" can indeed fuck off. It's not indicative of any attitude, morality or ethics on one's own part- it's just Newspeak in a friendlier wrapper.
However, I don't think genuinely hating racism (from WHICHEVER side- or, for that matter, homophobia, or any flavour of bigotry I can't be arsed to mention) comes under that banner.
Oh, and by the way- Faith could kick ALL their asses. (And she wouldn't feel bad about it afterwards.)

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