BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Conversation >

Commonplace Racism.

  
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
14:48 / 23.02.02
"I hate pakis" is what a pleasant drunk man said to me last night. Now, after a comment like that, I would really have liked to have explained to him that I didn't feel the same. But did I? Well, the drunk man told me about how he had "just bottled a paki, because I hate them" and so I didn't tell him what I thought.. I merely said things "oh yeah. Those bastards." I'd like to think I was being ironic, but somehow I don't feel particularly good. I went along with this idiot, pretty much.

The man thought it perfectly reasonable to hate pakis, but said he didn't mind blacks. What a reasonable man. Oh, he didn't like the chinese either. I mean, clearly those lot are stealing his money. He doesn't work to have half his money taken by the pakis.

It's just sad.
I told him that at the school I went to, their were "only about 10 white kids" (mostly because I've heard people I know saying things like it before...) and he responded with "Exactly, fucking pakis."

I mean... is there anything I could have done to make this man think? Mostly I was trying to get away from him... he didn't seem to be the type who liked people to disagree with him.

Although, I'm sure I saw the bouncers beating the crap out of him on my way out...

I dunno.
Can't stop thinking about things I should have said, or should have been able to say, and yet didn't.

[Edited to change thread title, because now it just feels nasty and I don't want the same things this thread contains contantly in my face, either.]

[ 23-02-2002: Message edited by: Sweet Jane ]
 
 
Sax
14:54 / 23.02.02
Hmm. This wasn't in Preston, by any chance, was it? I had a similar experience there about two weeks ago. Upstairs in a predominantly student-ish pub, this brick shithouse of a bloke started talking to me apropos of nothing and launched into "It's all right round here but there are too many fucking nig-nogs."
I was sort of so shocked I just went and sat down, but it got on my tits all night, and at chucking out time he came up to me again, all smiles, as though I was his new fucking pal or something.
This being about four pints down the road, I told him in no uncertain terms to fuck off or I might have to give him a good hiding.
My mates dragged me off (they were pretty shocked, as this isn't normal behaviour for me and they hadn't been party to the previous exchange) but the worst thing was he was suddenly surrounded by pretty right-on looking teenagers all concerned for his welfare and throwing bad vibes at me for God's sake.
I was quite pleased I'd had a go, though. Obviously not to be recommended all the time as racist cunts are very often hard bastards who won't mind ripping your ears off.
 
 
Ganesh
14:55 / 23.02.02
It's a difficult situation, certainly. In those circumstances, I've either objected (usually fairly mildly, saying something like "actually, my brother-in-law's from Afghanistan" - which usually shuts up the cab drivers) or, if I'm not brave enough, stayed silent. I'm always careful not to smile, nod or give other non-verbal 'approval' cues, though. I'm not sure agreeing (and no, I doubt it's ever taken as "irony") ever helps: in their eyes, it validates what they're saying and it makes you feel shit.

In terms of "making him think", there's probably little you could've done - particularly if you were feeling physically threatened within the situation. Avoid agreeing, though, however implicit...

[ 23-02-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Sax
14:56 / 23.02.02
What I said doesn't answer your questions, really, Sweet Jane. Could you have said anything? It would have probably made you feel better, but would it have changed his entrenched views? Probably not. Depends whether you think it's worth getting into a fight for. The issue obviously is, but in real life...

[ 23-02-2002: Message edited by: Sax ]
 
 
Not Here Still
14:58 / 23.02.02
Yeah, I've had this happen once or twice (especially in Leicester, which I'm guessing is where this took place)

I generally reply to 'I hate Pakis' with 'I don't' and see what happens. Generally not much.

Sometimes, however, I don't say anything - and other times, I just run.

Never nice when it happens, is it?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
15:00 / 23.02.02
quote: It's just sad.

No, it's not fucking sad. It's hateful racist shit and what's sad is that you humoured him and agreed with him and left him cosy and content in his prejudices, thinking another good old whitey agreed with him.

It sucks when you feel you have to do that because of an intimidating or frightening situation, supposing that explains your qualms about expressing disagreement with this bigot shitbag, but maybe next time you might feel able to gainsay something racist addressed to you.

And if you don't then you might as well get your Mum to sew up a pointy white hood for you now because you'll be doing the work for the bad guys.
 
 
suds
15:02 / 23.02.02
i always read in books that if men or boys start hassling me on the street, that i have the right to shout back at them, and to tell them to fuck off.
but i know that if i shout back at a group of lads who are shouting at my body, there is a higher chance of them shouting more or even worse, attacking me.
self-protection, to me, is not saying a word, and making sure that i stay in well lit areas and near people who don't seem like thugs.
and it bothers me sometimes because i want to shout back at these boys so much but i don't think it's worth my life. you know?
so i think what sweet jane did was totally understandable. it was self defence.

[ 23-02-2002: Message edited by: suds ]
 
 
w1rebaby
15:02 / 23.02.02
if he'd told you he'd just bottled a paki, it seems sensible not to call him a racist bastard right then and there, particularly if he's holding a bottle at the time

i don't think there's realistically anything you could have done to re-educate him that would not have risked immediate physical harm to yourself
 
 
Mourne Kransky
15:03 / 23.02.02
And "Pakis" is a horrible ugly venomous word which you used four times in your text and also in your thread title. Presumably it isn't loaded with the same bile when you hear it in your head as when I hear it in mind.
 
 
Sax
15:05 / 23.02.02
ZoCher, you're obviously 100 per cent completely correct and right, but maybe ease up on Sweet Jane a bit? He's obviously feeling a bit shit about the whole episode. The self-preservation instinct makes us do some crap things, sometimes.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:10 / 23.02.02
You should try living with myt current housemates. The other night they came home from the local. One of them said that he couldn't believe the stuff that one of the others had come out with. I asked him what had happened.

It turns out, right, that this fucking queer had come over and started staring at them. It was fucking sick, man. He was going to kick his fucking head in. He knows I don't agree, like, but he's been brought up to believe in different stuff than me.

And so on.

I told him that as far as I was concerned he's a fucking idiot and I wasn't going to waste my fucking breath on him. He's also prone to making statements about all the pakis out there. When asked why he doesn't call blacks niggers, he responds that pakis are different. They're just fucking ignorant.

I can only tell him that he's a prick and if he doesn't learn better I'll lodge his balls up his throat. Works for a bit. I have no illusions that I'm having any effect other than to keep him from spouting this shit within my range of hearing.

That's with someone I know. Strangers, on the other hand, are an entirely different proposition. Things will escalate into a free for all pretty sharpish. The thing to consider is, are you going to have any effect whatsoever on this person's thinking? Sometimes, I guess, the only thing to do is give a look of utter disgust and walk off.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
15:11 / 23.02.02
I'm sorry to have gone off on one, Sweet Jane, must have hit a nerve. It could have been an ugly situation for you to have spoken up, I do understand that. And you posted because you felt you hadn't been true to your instincts.

What really pisses me off with these guys is that they include you in their imaginary brotherhood and obviously think their's is the majority opinion. They have to be shown that it's not. Getting angry again - away to lie down in darkened room and think beautiful thoughts....
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
15:12 / 23.02.02
Yeah, Leicester. Full of lovely people. Probably my own fault for where I was though... (as in, if anyone said this type of thing in the places I normally go to, I would be a hell of a lot more shocked, and not respond in the same way at all...)

Although that's worse, the fact that you would expect it in the kind of place I was...

I feel dodgy because I know I should have acted differently. But at the time, I didn't really think. But then, when the guy's clearly bigger than me and boasting about having just bottled someone, disagreeing seems like a really shit idea.

But I know I should have responded differently... and even though I was taking the piss, he was too drunk/dim to know that...

I can't actually understand how people can hold views like that. Let alone be completely secure in thinking they're right...

I feel like I should be saying sorry to someone.

*Edited to add I started writing this reply just after Not Me Again's... eek.*

[ 23-02-2002: Message edited by: Sweet Jane ]
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:13 / 23.02.02
quote:Originally posted by ZoCher:
And "Pakis" is a horrible ugly venomous word which you used four times in your text and also in your thread title. Presumably it isn't loaded with the same bile when you hear it in your head as when I hear it in mind.

While I agree with your sentiments, I'm guessing that the only reason SJ's done that is to make the nature of the situation, and the guy in question, obvious. That's by way of a disclaimer, 'cause that's why I did it in that last post of mine.
 
 
captain piss
15:16 / 23.02.02
invariably i make an arse of these situations myself and end up not doing very much then raging about it an hour later when the opportunity to confront has long passed.

Did find myself the target of a gay-baiting incident last year (more to do with the blue hair of my companion than my actual sexual ornttn, I feel like mentioning) in S London and was very grateful for the reactions & assistance of people around us, mainly the girl who was with us who chucked beer in the faces of our persecutors - the incident was luckily spotted by the bouncers who sussed what was going on and stood either side of the 3 of us till the fracas had subsumed (the caahhhnts and their horrendous girlfriends appeared to be getting nicked when we left, happily enough).

but yeah, the moral of the story is... errr, have lots of very hard friends in tow in case you have to take a stand on things you believe in or something- dunno, it's a tricky one.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
15:17 / 23.02.02
Randy: Thanks for clarifying that for me. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:22 / 23.02.02
Thew whole nature of this thread means that it's undoubtedly going to turn into a 15-page mess of accusation and very careful explanation within a couple of hours.

These are abhorrent words, that's absolutely certain. Seeing this particular thread title, with that particular word, at the top of the main page is stomach-turning. Just want to make that clear for those who doubt anyone's motives here.

[ 23-02-2002: Message edited by: E. Randy Dupre ]
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
15:34 / 23.02.02
The fucking scary thing is, at this particular establishment (I didn't go by choice) I think this brand of thinking could be the majority...

The guy told me he knew the bouncers. He laughed. He bottled someone. But it's ok, because he knows the bouncers!

Great. And now I feel bad for hoping it was this guy that they were kicking the crap out of...

And ZoCher, you haven't voiced anything I didn't think myself. And I think the word "paki" is a word that should make you feel uneasy, which is why I used it, as well as the fact this idiot had no qualms of using it. Sorry, just feel perhaps I've been really crap at explaining myself.

Hm. Don't seem to be able to express myself properly on this.

Hopefully I can act better next time... oh, but there really shouldn't be a next time. There really shouldn't...
 
 
netbanshee
16:10 / 23.02.02
...it was self-defense...Sweet Jane...not to worry. And you've shown that it bothers you, so you obviously know better. Otherwise, if you would have said something other than what you did, this might have turned from a racism discussion into a "Fighting racist drunkies" thread.

I got called out walking in my old hood about a month ago...some black males hung out of the car while they were hitting a popular spot saying..."white motherfucker, garble...blah..." Kind of bothers me more for the fact that these guys were tourists in my neighborhood, spouting obcenities on my turf. Tried to think nothing of it. Was wondering though...if it would have changed if my girl (who happens to be black) was with me...hmmm...
 
 
Ganesh
16:48 / 23.02.02
The most successful way to get someone to question racist (sexist, homophobic, etc.) beliefs is to take a deep breath and personalise things: point out to them that you're not - as they've assumed - a tacitly accepting member of their 'brotherhood'; that you don't agree; that you/your sister/your brother-in-law is a [whatever], and that's not the way you see it. I've found this is the most successful strategy with racist/homophobic cab-drivers: once they realise they've made a conversational boo-boo with their fare-paying passenger, they generally shut up and drive. If, up until that point, they've been having a nice friendly chat with you then who knows, perhaps the concepts 'nice, friendly' and 'fucking poof' mill around a little and cause at least some cognitive dissonance in there.

Both ZoCher and myself trained as mental health professionals, and there's a strong belief in not colluding with delusional beliefs ie. avoiding saying or doing anything likely to reinforce them. Talking to racists seems similar: react neutrally, by all means, but don't actually validate or add to their belief system. Smiling in agreement is worse than doing nothing...

Easy it ain't, but the instinct to challenge racism and the instinct for self-preservation can be reconciled. IMHO.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:49 / 23.02.02
I try to be fairly honest at times like this, tho if I feel there's a slight chance of violence ensuing I just keep shtum and express my dissaproval by Not Talking to the person concerned. If I think I can get away with it, a sincere and wounded "but my Dad's from Pakistan!" generally shifts them- they're too busy boggling to start anything (I've got roughly the same complexion as a strawberry youghurt).

Sometimes I've had non-racists use comments like this to sound me out. In a recent episode I was discussing the new block of flats next door, and speculating what the new tenants might be like. The guy I was talking to responded "Huh. Probably asylum seekers from Afganistan, right?" My reply of "Well, so long as it's not a bunch of fucking yuppies from Crouch End, I don't care," made me a new freind.

But yeah, it's a bastard situation, one I've encountered many times. It's taken a lot of practice, and I'm ashamed to say that in the past I haven't always done the right thing. Nowadays I do.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
16:51 / 23.02.02
Sweet Jane, I have no doubt you're on the side of the angels here and I really am sorry for being such a snappy son of a bitch earlier. Re-reading your original post at the head of the thread I can see there could have been a much more intimidating scene going on than I picked up to begin with.

And I appreciate you changing the title of the thread.

I do have strong feelings about this and it's a big part of my work dealing with racism in the organisation I work for. What sticks in my craw is the casual collusion that goes on, time after time, by people who should know better and probably do, yet find one hundred and one reasons to just go along and not to challenge it.

I'm not a great fan of "Revolution" as a method of social change and would almost always plump for a gradualist /incremental approach to social change, from a purely pragmatic viewpoint.

I do think it's worth challenging racist statements /comments each and every time you hear them therefore, because it slowly chips away at the shibboleths they hold dear and drip by drip their views can be changed.

I'm old enough to have seen it happen. Not often enough, but it does happen that people open their eyes and understand that there are other ways of looking at and feeling about the world.

The fact that you have been so uneasy about your behaviour in the situation you described shows that you are already putting together your game plan for the next time and there will, sadly, be a next time.
 
 
—| x |—
09:34 / 24.02.02
Yes, it’s a damn shame that you will find yourself in a similar situation again and again. I gotta’ agree with the wise advice of Ganesh: don’t give them any verbal/non-verbal approval cues. Also, he seems to have a reasonable take on how to navigate the situation with tact and care.

It’s tough though, right? I find it unlikely that anything short of a miracle will change the thought patterns of a drunken racist asshole. Best to follow Ganesh’s advice and if there is threat of harm, then remove yourself from the scene. Facing harm for one’s principles is sometimes required, but getting beat up by drunk racist thugs doesn’t appear to be one of the required times. Might be different if you were around when racist attitudes were being directed towards a particular individual though…

A sticky issue all around.

m3
 
 
iratescottishgit
09:34 / 24.02.02
I would like to add my own two cents here however i dont think i will as this topic has a habit of enraging me.... this sort of thing has happened on a few occassions when i have been out on the razz and it makes me ashamed to be a member of the species because if these morons actually had an original thought it might just kill them, for christs sake i just tell them that we are all part of the HUMAN RACE and generally they just glare at me and walk off(It helps that im not the smallest person on the plant, if you can imagine crossing a gorilla with the animated character shrek then you will have a good picture of me)seriously though SJ i dont think you could have done anything to change this morons views and beliefs.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
09:34 / 24.02.02
yeah, sweet jane, if the bloke was drunk and boasting of violence, then talking sense into him isn't really an option. i nearly got bashed at school a few times, once with a teacher looking on, for standing up against racists, i was also seen as a killjoy for objecting to the hilarious incident at a school disco where some of the boys did nazi salutes and shouted 'seig heil! pakis go home'. it was fucking horrible and scary, but i had to do it. since then, i've challenged dumb racist views, but it's been older folk who've come out with it, so it's been easy.

[ 24-02-2002: Message edited by: shortfatdyke ]
 
 
rizla mission
10:57 / 24.02.02
I find the best tactic when someone makes a nasty *-ist statement (casual sexism & homophobia being seemingly unavoidable when young men come together in groups) is to say nothing and stare at them intently, making them feel uncomfortable until they say "er, well, um, obviously you think differently.." and change the subject/go away.

Works brilliantly on my dad amongst others, but probably not so well on violent, drunken bastards sadly..
 
 
Bill Posters
11:48 / 24.02.02
Hmm, I use the 'my girlfriend's an Arab' type line - it's often a useful approach because it facilitates some kind of male-bonding process with the racist if he's a feller; more often than not, that's the case.

Banshee - if a certain type of black male sees a white man with a black woman, all hell can break loose. And of course vice versa. I suspect it's a good job she wasn't with you!

Apart from very low level assaults in a black area of London, I've personally never had any serious trouble. I know 3 peole who have. An old friend of mine was beaten up quite badly by a group of girls for being a "Paki lesbian", and sadly no one bothered to intervene; she came to with no idea how long she'd been unconscious on the street. A white
guy I know got kicked badly by three black guys for being a "white faggot" and again, despite wondering through the streets partially dressed and covered in blood trying to find a phone, no one even bothered to ask him if he was okay. But the worst is an Asian guy who got a helluvan assault off guys with baseball bats and no sympathy from the police (Wiltshire) has been slowly committing suicide with heroin ever since. The previous two seem to have got over their assaults, but for whatever reason, he just didn't/hasn't. Agonising to watch; I just try to accept that effectively, he died in that attack.

Having said that, the only incident I've witnessed was a drunk white guy screaming at a "Paki" (dressed 'traditionally avec turban etc) just after S11, in London's Leicester Square. I went towards him but so did a. lots of non-white taxi drivers - it was near a taxi rank and b. loads of other whites. The racist chap was totally outnumbered and so it was all cool.

But I have walked past a (non-racial) incident of violence. A guy was being bashed against a van and as I walked by he asked me to help. One of his assailants had a knife - I bottled it totally and just walked on by, rationalising that utterly pathetic selfishness with the 'I've got controlled substances on me, can't get into trouble' meme. So no, Sweet Jane, I don't think you did the wrong thing necessarily. I mean, much as we all might like to think how brave and heroic we are, when I get on the wrong end of a knife, I know I'm not.

I mentioned this in another thread: apparently, the Americans are now a race, and an oppressed one. Make of this what you will.
 
 
w1rebaby
12:36 / 24.02.02
americans a race? Right. Presumably, then, everyone who lives in London is the same "race". Boneheads.

Even using the word "race" in a sense that means you believe in the concept is a bad sign, to my mind.
 
 
Bill Posters
13:16 / 24.02.02
That's what I think. I mean, my admittedly left-wing understanding of the biology is that like iratescottishgit sez, there's only one race, the human race. Trouble is, I'm white and I know those who aren't who do use the word 'race'. Dunno; it's not for me to state what vocab others, nay 'Others', can and not use I suppose. Be interested to hear what 'Others' reckon...

On the anti-American racism thing, I noticed that Cherry Bomb felt the need to deny personal responsibility for the bombing of 'Ghanistan recently when we met her in London. I mean, I sooo would have thought that goes without saying, but it obviously doesn't, as the whole Demonisation of America thread over in the S/board indicates.
 
 
Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes
13:54 / 24.02.02
I once worked in a place where the majority of the men were racist, at different levels, all white males.
I would hear several racist comments each day. One guy even went to the local nf election meetings. The team leader asked me if I was a racist and I said no, he just said that he was. Most of the men were ok guys in most senses and wouldn’t discriminate in any real sense. One time a Ugandan guy came to work with us and he initially refused to do garden maintenance in a cemetery because of his religion but was forced to do so or lose his job. I wonder if I refused to do something because of a christian reason (not that I’m a christian). Would I have been forced to carry out that task? I only criticised, spoke out about, a racist thing once, when I was driving the work van and passed an Asian funeral and one guy started beeping the horn. Me and the other guy who was in the van told him he was a fucking twat, went to far etc., He got sort of embarrassed but tried to justify himself.

When i first moved to London one lad I worked with assumed I was a racist because of where I was from, but i have encountered more racism in London than in my native Newcastle. I have also noticed some of my friebds developing racist tendencies since moveing to London!

What I usually do when I encounter a person who hold racist opinions is to ignore them, but when you work with them I just let the comments pass and try to change the subject, or try gentle persuasion, Korean style
.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:09 / 24.02.02
SJ- yes, I understand you feeling shit about it, but I also think in that situation (if it's the way I'm picturing it in my head) I probably wouldn't have done the right thing either.
Two (very brief) stories- one time I got mugged in Clapton (by a black guy). Tons of people around, no-one did anything. After it was all over (and it was quite farcical actually) this girl (who'd seen the whole thing) came over and asked if I was OK. I said "yeah, I only had a tenner on me anyway." She looked all sympathetic and said "fucking niggers". I said "look, there's no need to get racist about it- the guy was a prick, whatever colour he was". She got arsey and left.
Second story- (and probably more relevant)- once, when I was living in Somerset, myself and a friend hitched up to London (me to see friends from college, him to see his girlfriend in Hounslow). We got picked up by this guy just after Salisbury, who was going all the way to London. And he was a laugh- we were all chatting away, then he asked where we were going. When Scott (my friend) said he was going to Hounslow, the guy said "Yeah, used to be alright there. Bit dodgy now, though." Scott said "Yeah, I know what you mean" to which the guy replied- "yeah. Too many fucking coons." We both shut the fuck up- we weren't gonna argue with the guy- he was behind the wheel of the car, we were halfway up the motorway, AND he'd already told us he'd been in the west country for a shooting weekend, and that his guns etc. were in the boot. After we got to London, we both beat ourselves up over the whole thing for hours, "should we have said something, should we have told him to fuck off, what the FUCK should we have done?" We never resolved that particular question. And I STILL feel like shit about it (11 years later).
I guess, if I have a point, it's - ALWAYS do the right thing. If you can. If you can't, then don't. But, as has been said so many times previously in this thread, it's a tricky one.
 
 
Bill Posters
14:41 / 24.02.02
Yeah, that mugging tale reminds me of the time I was hassled by thre guys - two white, one black - in Leicester years ago. One of them (and I didn't see which one, 'cos of the angle) punched me in the head. I also had a conversation afterwards with a woman who'd seen it all and she said something to the effect of 'Leicester eh? All these foreigners, there's bound to be trouble'. I mean, hello?! Even if it had been the black guy who punched me, the group as a whole was two thirds white and yet whaddya know, it's those pesky foreigners we have to blame. It'd be funny if it wasn't so scary.

As for that debate about the word "paki" at the start of this thread, I did once try to stop someone using it when I was at school, but lost to a majority decision that the word was not offensive. The one Asian kid kept his mouth shut throughout.
 
 
Bill Posters
14:53 / 24.02.02
Jeez, I seem to be hellbent on thread-domination here but that white guy who was partially stripped and beaten in the "white faggot"-bashing incident I reported above was subsequently at a conference hall and asked a black guy handing out leaflets for a leaflet. "Fuck off," was the response. "Why?", asked ******. "Because you're white," came the answer. ****** then went into the room where a bunch of people, a lot of whom, like him, happened to be Queer-identified, and reported the whole incident. And was told, in no uncertain terms, to shut the fuck up.

At the risk of really starting a shitstorm, does anyone here think that is "the latest example of political correctness gone mad"TM, or should ****** have got no sympathy whatsoever as was the case? Affirmative action - way forward or shot in the foot? Discuss?
 
 
w1rebaby
15:16 / 24.02.02
Well, obviously that was out of order, and the people who told him to shut up sound like idiots. I don't think it represents a particular social movement though.

I have a few stories like that as well, but I've got more about white discrimination against non-white.
 
 
Ganesh
15:17 / 24.02.02
First part of the ol' Hippocratic Oath (which, amazingly, I do remember at least in part) is 'do no harm'. If you can't Do The Right Thing, try not to make the situation worse...
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply