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Ronald Reagan dies

 
  

Page: 12(3)

 
 
Baz Auckland
12:31 / 14.06.04
The front page of In Touch magazine last week had the following:

Nancy and Ronald Reagan: Why Their Love Wil Live Forever

It's true! He IS a zombie!
 
 
grant
18:25 / 14.06.04
That NY Times op/ed is really, really interesting.

I love this passage:
. The cold war ended in an act of faith and trust, not fear and trembling.

But many neocons came to hate Mr. Reagan, saying he lost the cold war since he left office with communism still in place. Some even believed that the cold war would soon be resumed. Dick Cheney, as President George H. W. Bush's defense secretary, dismissed perestroika ("restructuring") as a sham and glasnost ("opening") as a ruse, he insisted that Mr. Gorbachev would be replaced by a belligerent militarist; and warned America to prepare for the re-emergence of an aggressive communist state.



There was definitely this thing that Reagan did where he kind of did two opposite things at the same time and then took advantage of the thing that worked.
 
 
gravitybitch
04:17 / 15.06.04
Compared to Bush 2, Reagan was a pussycat. While he was guilty of a whole bundle of bad things, as far as I'm aware he never set up a Gulag like Guantanamo. And while he paid lip service to the Christians...

Long post warning...

He did more than pay lip service - the Religious Right is to blame for his mishandling of the beginning of the AIDS crisis. And there was lots serious talk of sequestering patients with AIDS back then, creating a registry and tracking folks and all their partners... We nearly had *large numbers* of gulags rather than "just" thousands of people being outed by their disease, shunned by family, and dying alone and uncared-for.

I can't find the original piece where I'd seen the statistic, but apparently over 60,000 people died of AIDS during his administration.
_____________

Three horrifying Reagan White House press briefing transcripts on AIDS from the prologue to Jon Cohen's book, "Shots in the Dark".
---------------
PRESS BRIEFING 1

THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
PRESS BRIEFING BY LARRY SPEAKES
October 15, 1982
The Briefing Room
12:45pm EDT

Q: Larry, does the President have any reaction to the announcement - the Centers for Disease Control in Atlanta, that AIDS is now an epidemic and have over 600 cases?

MR. SPEAKES: What's AIDS?

Q: Over a third of them have died. It's known as "gay plague." (Laughter.) No, it is. I mean it's a pretty serious thing that one in every three people that get this have died. And I wondered if the President is aware of it?

MR. SPEAKES: I don't have it. Do you? (Laughter.)

Q: No, I don't.

MR. SPEAKES: You didn't answer my question.

Q: Well, I just wondered, does the President -

MR. SPEAKES: How do you know? (Laughter.)

Q: In other words, the White House looks on this as a great joke?

MR. SPEAKES: No, I don't know anything about it, Lester.

Q: Does the President, does anyone in the White House know about this epidemic, Larry?

MR. SPEAKES: I don't think so. I don't think there's been any -

Q: Nobody knows?

MR. SPEAKES: There has been no personal experience here, Lester.

Q: No, I mean, I thought you were keeping -

MR. SPEAKES: I checked thoroughly with Dr. Ruge this morning and he's had no - (laughter) - no patients suffering from AIDS or whatever it is.

Q: The President doesn't have gay plague, is that what you're saying or what?

MR. SPEAKES: No, I didn't say that.

Q: Didn't say that?

MR. SPEAKES: I thought I heard you on the State Department over there. Why didn't you stay there? (Laughter.)

Q: Because I love you Larry, that's why (Laughter.)

MR. SPEAKES: Oh I see. Just don't put it in those terms, Lester. (Laughter.)

Q: Oh, I retract that.

MR. SPEAKES: I hope so.

Q: It's too late.

----------
PRESS CONFERENCE 2
June 13, 1983

Q: Larry, does the President think it might help if he suggested that the gays cut down on their "cruising"? (Laughter.) What? I didn't hear your answer, Larry.

(more of the same, 8 months later...)

----------
PRESS CONFERENCE 3

THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary

PRESS BRIEFING BY
LARRY SPEAKES
December 11, 1984
The Briefing Room
12:03 p.m. EST

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
MR. SPEAKES: Lester's beginning to circle now. He's moving in front. (Laughter.) Go ahead.

Q: Since the Center for Disease Control in Atlanta (laughter) reports...

MR. SPEAKES: This is going to be an AIDS question.

Q: that an estimated

MR. SPEAKES:You were close.

Q: Well, look, could I ask the question, Larry?

MR. SPEAKES:You were close.

Q: An estimated 300,000 people have been exposed to AIDS, which can be transmitted through saliva. Will the President, as Commander-in-Chief, take steps to protect Armed Forces food and medical services from AIDS
patients or those who run the risk of spreading AIDS in the same manner that they forbid typhoid fever people from being involved in the health or food services?

MR. SPEAKES:I don't know.

Q: Could you - Is the President concerned about this subject, Larry

MR. SPEAKES: I haven't heard him express...

Q: ...that seems to have evoked so much jocular

MR. SPEAKES: ...concern.

Q: reaction here? I - you know -

Q: No, but, I mean, is he going to do anything, Larry?

MR. SPEAKES:Lester, I have not heard him express anything on it. Sorry.

Q: You mean he has no expressed no opinion about this epidemic?

MR. SPEAKES: No, but I must confess I haven't asked him about it. (Laughter.)

Q: Would you ask him Larry? (Laughter.)

(and it goes on like this...)
 
 
bjacques
09:21 / 15.06.04
I remember the charnel house proposal well. Republicans didn't take AIDS seriously until "good" people started dying too. Around 1990, a popular, moderate Republican widow made a big speech after her philandering husband caught AIDS from a prostitute, infected the wife, and died. Terry Dolan, onetime head of the Moral Majority, had died of it in 1985. A book came out a year ago saying available records show that he wasn't insensitive so much as unaware of how bad it really was. Which means the White House staff should be up on charges.

Speaking of concentration camps, Rex 84 was a bit of evil mischief dreamed up on Reagan's watch. It went nowhere, but provided the germ of truth for one of the big urban legends of the 1990s and inspired bits of "How I Became An Invisible" and "American Death Camp" from The Invisibles. Thanks to Shrubby, this all no longer seems farfetched.

What Bush shares with Reagan is the sheer number of thieves, thugs and fixers each brought with him to the Executive branch of government.
 
 
alas
14:08 / 19.06.04
I've got to respond to October Ghost--although I realize it's a bit belated:

He responded by directing an aggressive stance, forcing the Soviets into an unsustainable race. A lot of people though it was crazy (and scary), but in the end it worked. The government of the Soviet Union forced their own nation into economic collapse trying to keep pace, thereby provoking their own fall.

Trouble is, we haven’t reached "the end." Plutonium, friends, has a half-life of 24,400 years. Here’s what International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War have to say about how this strategy has "worked":

The high price of nuclear weapons manufacture is not in money alone but in damage to public health and the environment. Intentional and accidental releases of radionuclides such as plutonium-239, iodine-131, cesium-137, carbon-14, and strontium-90 have contaminated air, water, and soil, increasing the risk and rates of cancer and other radiation-related diseases in some areas. Accidents and incidents at some of the nuclear weapons plants have released amounts of radioactive materials comparable to those released during the Chernobyl accident.

In the US alone, it has been estimated that more than a million uranium miners, employees of nuclear weapons laboratories and production factories, military personnel, and residents living near nuclear test sites and weapons factories have been exposed to harmful levels of radiation.

Indications are that exposures in the USSR have been higher than in the US. For example, half the workers at a production facility near Chelyabinsk were routinely receiving 100 rem per year in the 1940s and 1950s as compared to an average lifetime dose of 3 rem for workers at 3 major US weapons plants. The current US civilian exposure limit is 0.1 rem per year.

The need to prevent further radioactive pollution and to clean up the scores of contaminated sites around the world is urgent. The following examples of nuclear production-related incidents, accidents, and problems attest to the seriousness of this global public health problem.

* In the US, the death rate from lung cancer is 5 times higher in uranium miners than in the general population. This relative risk is likely to be similar in the USSR where uranium exploration and mining methods are basically the same.
* A 1986 study of workers at the Sellafield nuclear weapons plant in the United Kingdom showed a positive association between radiation dose and death rates from bladder cancer, multiple myeloma, leukemia, and lymphatic and bone cancer tumors. A 1989 study found that workers' children were 7-8 times more likely to develop leukemia if their fathers received a total radiation dose of 10 rem in the period prior to their conception.
* The Hanford Nuclear Reservation is the largest nuclear weapons production facility in the US, similar to Chelyabinsk in Russia, and is considered one of the most radioactively contaminated sites on Earth. Over 475,000 curies of radioactive iodine-131 were released into the atmosphere from Hanford between 1944 and 1957‹an amount equivalent to that released during the Chernobyl accident. Iodine-131 increases the risk of hypothyroidism and cancers of the thyroid gland. Some of these releases were intentional experiments to test ways of monitoring Soviet plutonium production. Residents were not notified of the releases because of national security concerns and were therefore unable to take precautions.
* A preliminary study of people downwind from Hanford indicates that over 20,000 children may have been exposed to the iodine-131, partially through contaminated milk and food. Of 270,000 people living in the area, 13,500 may have received more than 33 rads over a 3-year period‹well in excess of the 5-rad per year limit. Babies may have received a 2,900-rad exposure to their thyroids.
* Two-thirds of the high level radioactive waste produced by the US nuclear weapons complex is dumped at Hanford. Plutonium, uranium, strontium, technetium, cobalt, cyanide, hexone, carbon tetrachloride, phosphates, nitrates, fluorides, and other chemicals have been injected directly into the soil, stored in decaying underground metal drums, and even buried in cardboard boxes. Site officials at Hanford recently acknowledged that operators dumped 400 billion gallons of toxic and radioactive liquids into the soil. They are now admitting that the wastes have contaminated the ground water and the Columbia River. The river is a source of drinking water, food, and recreation for millions.
* A major accident involving the explosion of a high-level radioactive waste storage tank occurred in Kyshtym, near the Chelyabinsk plutonium production facility in 1957. This explosion released 20 million curies of radiation, including 1 million curies of strontium-90, which is associated with leukemia and bone cancers. Over 60,000 people were evacuated from the region, and 625 square miles of land was severely contaminated rendered uninhabitable to this day. The accident was not acknowledged by Soviet officials until 1989.
* A US investigation of the Chelyabinsk accident indicated that widespread contamination was caused by the unsafe waste management practices of dumping contaminated water directly into the Techa River and storing nuclear waste in open ponds rather than sealed tanks.
* In 1990, the US Department of Energy warned that 177 underground waste storage tanks at Hanford were made more potentially explosive by cleansing agents added in earlier years. These tanks present a serious situation, if not an imminent hazard.


Thanks, Mr. Reagan. However, the bigger problem is that, of course, he couldn’t get away with it if people didn’t support him. Why do I keep thinking of Gatsby—“They were careless people, Tom and Daisy—they smashed up things and creatures and then retreated back into their money or their vast carelessness, or whatever it was that kept them together, and let other people clean up the mess they had made.”

Damn us all. How do we (keep) let(ting) this happen?
 
 
Ray Fawkes
16:24 / 21.06.04
Trouble is, we haven’t reached "the end." Plutonium, friends, has a half-life of 24,400 years. Here’s what International Physicians for the Prevention of Nuclear War have to say about how this strategy has "worked":

I don't refute any of the statements quoted here - but I don't see that this puts lie to the notion that the Reagan administration's strategy put an end to the US-Soviet arms race, which was steadily building these stockpiles. You'll note that since the collapse of the Soviet Union, several initiatives to reduce the existing global nuclear stockpiles have been tabled.

So, yes, the strategy worked. Without the acceleration and collapse of the Soviet program in the 80's, we might have faced ten more years of stockpile expansion, if not more.
 
 
Linus Dunce
16:48 / 21.06.04
Well, that's just a theory as to why he did it, but at least it is plausible and will be one day verifiable, whereas:

Over 475,000 curies of radioactive iodine-131 were released into the atmosphere from Hanford between 1944 and 1957 -- an amount equivalent to that released during the Chernobyl accident.

Is such a meaningless, torturous pseudo-statistic I'm not even going to bother asking where it came from.
 
 
diz
12:28 / 25.06.04
So, yes, the strategy worked. Without the acceleration and collapse of the Soviet program in the 80's, we might have faced ten more years of stockpile expansion, if not more.

if by "worked" you mean "replaced the dictatorial, but stable, Soviet government with the equally dictatorial, but unstable, Yeltsin and Putin governments, which are basically run by organized crime and have no control over their nuclear stockpiles."

the world would be a better place right now if the Soviet Union were still intact.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
12:57 / 25.06.04
How about if by "worked" I mean "put an end to the accelerating nuclear arms race"? Which is what I actually said.

The world would be a better place right now if the Soviet Union were still intact.

The Soviet Union was the most successful mass-murdering state in the twentieth century. Do you have even a basic understanding of what that means? Do you honestly believe that what's happening there now rivals what happened between 1917 and 1991?

The threat of returning to something akin to the previous state of rule in Russia is looming - and gaining power partially because of the misguided "it was better when..." statements of people who don't understand what's happening now, or what happened then.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:37 / 25.06.04
most successful mass-murdering state in the twentieth century

Umm... you know there was some serious competition for that title?
 
 
Ray Fawkes
02:50 / 27.06.04
yes. so?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:14 / 27.06.04
Come on, people. Thought-out posts supported by evidence...

Also, how evil the Soviet Union is/was, and whether and why Russia is likely to slide back into autocracy, strikes me as probably the meat of a new thread. Anyone?
 
 
Ray Fawkes
12:04 / 28.06.04
Start 'er up, Haus!

With regards to this thread - it's obvious that the debate over how effective Reagan's presidential policies were (and how evil and/or oblivious Reagan himself was) has enough fuel that it's hard to imagine paying the man any kind of unilateral tribute (i.e. putting his face on the ten dollar bill, as was proposed) for quite some time.
 
  

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