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Magick and Mental Illness

 
  

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Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
00:34 / 06.06.04
Don't worry everything will work out fine!

Fuck, you don't know that, do you. One of the nicest, most caring people I've ever known, someone I respected both as a friend and a fellow psychonaut, is now in a high security psych ward for killing a complete stranger. I won't be able to see him again for a while.

Things do not work out fine for everyone. I object to your casual tone towards something that can seriously fuck you up. You approach it that way if you want to, but only a fool would treat it so nonchalantly.
 
 
illmatic
11:29 / 06.06.04
Seth: extremely good friendships (which is the best magic gets)

Don't have a lot of time today to respond to all of the points on what is a very interesting thread, but I thought I'd just draw your attention to the comment by Seth above, Sypha. I think a lot of the transgressive stuff you've done sounds very interesting, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand, I can hardly judge from this distance - but the main problem I can see with it is that it all occurs within your own headspace.Not once does it involve interaction with another living, breathing human being. I think Gypsy is absolutely on the money with his comments above - there's a vast field of scary humna interaction out there waiting in all it's sticky, wet, scary joyousness. What are you waiting for?

Oh and this:
Certain conditioning I've been unable to shake despite my sincerest efforts, and this is coming from someone who has read countless books on psychology, meditation, undoing yourself, reprogramming your mind, blah blah blah... I'm well informed on the subject but it seems like I'm throwing money down the toilet as I'm still pretty much the same person I've always been.

Well, reading is one thing. Doing is another. I think you've mentioned RAW's intro to "Energised Meditation" before. I think it's a great challenge and kick up and ass.How much of this stuff have you read, practised, read again, practised more, critqued, practised more and more until you know the exercise inside out, and can slag it off or praise it to high heaven from any number of angles. If it doesn't work - why not? What do you do to make it work?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:14 / 06.06.04
Sypha, why do you want a copy of the Voudon Gnostic Workbook? Why is it your grail? What do you expect it to do for you?
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:07 / 06.06.04
there most definately is a reason for that, and that is has essence and is absolute,that "is" is. heh.
seeds of desire breed community.
 
 
--
02:31 / 07.06.04
Macrophage, in my own way I've spent most of this year (that is, my 23rd year of existence) exploring the Dayside in my own way through the use of my book cum hypersigil "Punkmodernist", each of it's 10 chapters representing aspects of the sephiroth on the tree of life. In this way did I familirize myself with the concept and at the same time made it a personal thing I could relate to. There was an epilogue representing Daath and the Nightside but it was very rushed and I don't think I spent enough time exploring that negative aspect of that place. Then again my head's always been in that place, since childhood even. When I was a kid I would fantasize that the heaven my parents told me about was a vast graveyard populated by mutant insects and reptiles.

Keflexive: I don't always believe that a magical operation should have an intent. I got my feet wet with chaos magick... In fact some of the most bizarre occult things that have happened to me have resulted from magical rituals whose intentions were vague to begin with. Sometimes I like surprises.Some of this "negative" energy is very personal... In my own way I've been working with it all my life. For lack of a better term I'm calling it "tapping the Minraudian Current".

Illmatic, yes, my magic has been mostly isolated, but that's more a personal predilicition. Some people like group magic, but I feel more comfortable to really let myself go in private... Also because I'm not a very skilled magician at the moment (that is, can't scry, can't meditate, can't astrally project, definetly can't work with my firesnake or even breathe properly) I usually worry that negative energies accidently released could sting unaware passerbyers, and I don't want that on my conscience. Having said THAT, over the last few months I've been corresponding on-line with thelemic/OTOish types who have finally moved into my area. I'd like to meet them one day, so hopefully that can be arranged (actually, they're having a housewarming party next Saturday night, and they invited me but sadly I have to work that day... Too bad as it's a Gemini birthday celebration and I'm a Gemini too). Also recently I've developed a major crush on a gay coworker who is into the occult (not to mention trying to become a professional massager/alternative healer) who seems to be very much like me. More on this some other time. I can see there are other paths out there.

On another note, I always thought Gypsy was a she.

Actually, Gypsy, you spoke of sinister comfort zones as a way to avoid the real scary stuff. Actually, my number one fear is death/insanity/sickness, all of which can result from working with negative currents, so in a way I suppose I'm courting disaster (awkward social scenes are only my number 3 fear, 2 being bees). I'm not sure how to challenege my sense of self because I feel like an empty shell and wonder if I ever even had a self or personality of my own that wasn't programmed by outside operators. I'd like to try to make changes but due to my bizarre health problems (most of which are probably psychosomatic) and my constant tense body and aches (probably from living in a state of constant anxiety/tension) usually leaves me feeling too tired and drained to really live it up. The closest city with a scene where I live is 25 minutes away and you need to take the highway to get there, but I've never driven on the highway before (due to my fear of fast moving objects) and get hopelessly lost unless I have the exact directions... And that's just getting to the city. Once there one has to deal with roads that go everywhere, lots of cars zooming around, narrow streets, bad parking... For someone like me who hates driving it's a literal nightmare that would probably end up with me getting into a dangerous car accident. maybe I should just see if any bus lines can take me there. I'd like to go as I actually like walking around city streets, it's just the act of getting there I don't like. I've only been to one club in my life, it was a goth club and i went there to see some crossdresser give a spoken word performance. Maybe I should consult my wild lesbian friends from college and see if they can give me any tips on how to loosen up, as they all seem to live very free lives. Bottom line, at the moment in the GMverse I'm Mason Lang before volume 3 (that is, tied to his house and duties and not really free) crossed with Sir Miles (tragic existentialist obsessed with Lovecraftian monsters and the dark side). Quite a quagmire...

As for the VGW, I was half-joking when I called it my grail. My obsession stems from hunting it for over 2 years now. When I get fixated on something I keep on obsessing about it until I finally get it in my possession. It started when GM recommended it on his website (along with the works of Kenneth Grant... Come to think of it, that one response got me obsessed with the VGM and Kenneth Grant). It just seems like it would be a weird cool thing to read and I like collecting odd books. After reading Deren's "The Divine Horsemen" I want to read about the more sinister side of vodou and in particular i want to read about the insect loas, particularily the Baron Zaraguin who I've had an interest in some time. I don't expect it to really "do" anything for me... God knows I don't expect anything practical from it. But Bertraiux has designed his own system and from what I've read it sounds quite interesting.

Also, I'm an elitist prick and having this book would give me some bragging rights, though really I can only name about 5 people who'd be impressed.
 
 
illmatic
07:58 / 07.06.04
Sypha: I think you've missed my point. I wasn't talking about meeting up with other magicians, useful though that is (sometimes). I meant to point out that the trangressive stuff all takes place in your head and doesn't involve other people where a lot of other magicial processes do ie. trying to win them other as partners, relate differently to them, provide aid etc etc.

You mention health problems, which you concede may well be pyschosomatic. Dude, it's been said to you about 100 times - do something with your body!! I do not thing this is a universal paneca for all health problems but I am convinced it is the best cure all for excess tension and worry. Swim, run, martial arts, the Energisd Meditation stuff I sent you - whatever. I'm getting really sick of repeating myself here.
 
 
_Boboss
08:44 / 07.06.04
Hee hee ha ha

I've never driven on the highway before (due to my fear of fast moving objects) and get hopelessly lost unless I have the exact directions...

the Tunnels of Set should be a doddle then eh?

and seriously:

Give up magic right this moment for exactly the next X years. And fucking get your shit sorted out. Stop ignoring the good advice you keep being given. The most magical thing you can do now is to turn yourself into a healthy mundane [hate that term, sorry].

Then, if you must, come back and try again, with your obsessions hopefully resolved.

But really. You ask for advice but it feels like you just want an audience for your immolation. Magical burnout exists, it can happen, and you could well be on the way to turning yourself into a fucked and useless soul. If this does, universe forbid, happen to you, all of us who've read your posts will feel very bad about how avoidable it could have been.
 
 
---
10:28 / 07.06.04
I usually worry that negative energies accidently released could sting unaware passerbyers, and I don't want that on my conscience.

I've had this myself, and it's something that doesn't go away or ease off until you change something. I'd take the advice of others here and give the mojo a rest for a bit.

It should only take a few days and your head should start to clear a little. I was suprised when i saw this because over the years i've had a lot of problems with it, and it never goes until i start looking after my body and/or meditating, it's your body/soul/spirit telling you that something needs to be changed or that you need to stop for a while and get stuff together.

Whatever you do i really hope something works out for you, you seem to be in a situation that i was in not long ago more than i thought at first.

One more thing, don't get too obsessed with negative energies to the point that you lose your sense of will, (been there too) take your power back!

When i used to 'feed the beast' too much and it starting trying to take control, i'd fucking well attack it! Not always the best thing to do, but if your being drained of energy (and it sounds like you are) then you need to let it know that your not going to put up with it.
 
 
---
10:37 / 07.06.04
With regards to the last paragraph : obviously try other means first but if they fail, well you know.

I've been in situations before where vampiric entities have tried draining me regularly, and in the end, the only option left has been to attack, all other avenues being exhausted, sometimes it had to be done simply out of self defense.

I hope your not in this bad though, really.

I would definately give it a rest for a while, for your own health.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
12:18 / 07.06.04
I usually worry that negative energies accidently released could sting unaware passerbyers, and I don't want that on my conscience.

His holeiness pope pete (carroll) did say:
"I'm sick of occult beliefs which act not even as crutches for the feeble
but as broken legs for the incapable."

Sypha, beliefs like those you've stated above will do nothing for your self-confidence. Drop 'em. Seriously. Take a long hard look at all the occult belief-baggage you've accrued around yourself and sort out which beliefs are likely to help you change your situation (if that's what you want to do) and anything that helps you stay indoors (like worrying about "negative energies") needs to go. This is a fairly core chaos magic practice, btw.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:04 / 07.06.04
imagine self harm wasnt just about cutting physically.

but also cutting mentally, some of what you have described amounts to that, taking a razor blade to your own psyche.

now if you were stripping away the layers of your ego there might be a point,(perhaps not) but all in all this kind of psychic self mortification aint good for ya.

ive done similar things to what your describing, sick images, sexuality, my darkest self, after 3 years, time spent with psychiatrists various anti depressants and anti psychotics, asortments of herbs, and completely destroyed sleep pattern, obsessive compulsive behaviour, and very real urges to kill my family and friends, having absolute trust of nobody, including myself, and being entertained every day by the most insidious voices, it all gets a bit taxing,to say the least.

as i said i am slowly recovering, seeing the world again, meeting people, liking them even,having the odd date here and there and actually having some faith and hope in humanity as a whole.

it isnt chapel perilous, its hell. it started for me with exploration of daath and its entitys, and ended up with me having a mind full of said critters, and there are still a few kicking about, so if you dont mind the possession and there intentions continue, but be forewarned they will attempt to destroy you and strip you, until they are you.

wether they be the oh so fashionable aspects of your unconscious or the demons of old is not the point, its wether or not you wish to face that and are capable of coming back from it, without acting on the absolute evil that is filling your brain.

i dont wish to sound like some kind of fire and brimstone preacher, but that is my experience of it.

the tunnels of set, they really fuck you up.
here is a picture of your brain in the tunnels of set.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
19:00 / 07.06.04
I have to echo the above sentiments and STRONGLY. The way you're describing magic does sound like a negative force at this point. And it does become such. It's incredibly powerful stuff in an infinite number of ways. One of those ways is the ability it has to dominate your consciousness. And in order to successfully understand it, LET ALONE use it, you must balance this "hyper-consciousness" with "mundane" consciousness.

And this stuff's from experience. I've made a lot of bad decisions over the past few years based on my obsessive involvement with spirituality and magic. That OBSESSION is the key term and when it rears its ugly head you know it's time to work things out. I don't know if this is Chapel Perilous or Hell (mine seems the former) but this stuff works to put you in front of your deepest fears and weaknesses. And however much you love "magick"-magic, the real work lies there.

That said, it's DAMN hard to get up and do it. Again from experience.

And DO do something with your body. Not only does it cure most psychosomatic illnesses, it also lets you know what you're capable of, which is extremely reassuring and strengthening. And depending on what you're doing you can achieve a wonderful presence and centeredness through physical activity.
 
 
macrophage
20:04 / 07.06.04
I reckon a book like "Mind Mastery" by Ken Ward (which you can find on pdf if you look hard enough)wouls suit you down to the ground or look for his "Mind Changing" - you can pick these up free at tran4mind.com. Go search for TFT (Thought Field Therapy) you use 5 acupressure/acupuncture meridian hot points plus the so-called Psychological Reversal Spot. TFT works for me if I feel really drained or down in the dumps. It's like internal energy stuff, I think some of the NLP Therapists use this method, it's mostly used for people to overcome traumas but it's used for alot of other shit like depression, anxieties, obsessions, etc. I could always send this stuff to you sometime.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:40 / 07.06.04
the body work mentioned became essential for me, ive just come back from kung fu, i took up kung fu and tai chi to help my paranoia more than anything else, alot of my insecurities were due to fear of others, because my sensitivity had shot through the roof, i thought i could see the dark reflections in my self in others wether they were or not isnt the point.

martial arts for me gave me the confidence to confront the world again and pull my head out of my deep dark scary bum hole, i still occasionally stick it up there, ever heard the man who taught his ass hole to talk by burroughs, i find that kind of relevant.

mr wilson may say you reluctence to go out would be a flight imprint in the circuit one area and recommends martial arts to overcome such insecurities and imprint a more balanced fight flight circuit, i think he makes this point in the illuminati papers. hopefully somewhere in your area there is a place that holds a martial arts course of any kind.

they all have various approaches but each one in its own way will teach you to be confident in your environment.
first it takes admitting to yourself that you are shit scared and then it takes awhile to sit down and see what you can do about it.

i seriously dont want you to go through the hell i have been living in mate. it really aint pretty, and slowly but surely you become as ugly as it is and if you aint careful you wont notice it. until one night your on your way over to your dads to kill him. and the next morning you thank reality he wasnt there that night,but at his girlfriends.

i still have things to sort out but i am well on my way out of those shit hole tunnels.

take up internal martial arts if you can as they still relate to magick (as written in other threads), but also remember the more physical martial arts can be practiced as internal arts. in fact my whole daily practice has become centred around my martial arts.

that aside i think i will learn a dance next and some yoga, the last time i did formal dancing was at junior school

dowsee dow your partner....

now dance like the tree growing up from the ground remember to stay rooted to the spot.

perhaps salsa or maybe break dancing, any body work appears to remove you from your astral arsehole.

if you find socialising in an unstructured manner difficult at first approach it in small steps go to night classes clubs and groups that have structure and then slowly but sure eek yourself out into pubs and clubs,if you want to, but dont feel pressured too, do it all in small steps, make the tortoise your totem for a while, then slip off the shell and become the serpent when you are ready.

i probably sound a little patronising,but i write this for myself as much as i do for you.

there is a rite that comes to mind, involving the terrifying dakini, about drawing all the evil and negativity in the world and yourself into you and then offering it too her as a feast, i think it is part of a larger ritual, i used it to help me, i offered all my negativity and the worlds and also offered objects i had attached these negative values too.

this included books and cds dvds clothing, i offered each object pulling its value forth in front of kali and then offered it too her and went through the lot and then passed them on to charity shops, so what was shit to me may become gold for somebody else.

its hard to explain but the initial structure is in a book by even wentz,i think thats his name.
 
 
BARISKIL666
00:26 / 08.06.04
Surely Magick is the opposite of mental illness?A good magician is mentally healthy.There are of course lots of exeptions to that rule.I think Magick still attracts people who have phychological problems and needs,this being old aeon baggage still in effect?Also there are naturally really gifted people who have no choice other than to be involved in it all being a born psychic or whatever,and they are a bit nuts.Suppose it's all a question of what you consider metal illness.There's a lot of gray ares to be sure..
 
 
--
01:29 / 08.06.04
Illmatic, I wouldn't say I missed your point... I knew when you told me to meet other people you weren't referring specifically to other magicians, I just said that to show I'm slowly trying to establish some outside connections besides just living inside my own head as it were. I actually think that maybe hanging out with other magicians in real life could be helpful: It would be living proof that I'm not the only nut who has these weird notions.

As for the physical thing, this one is dicey. These days meditation is virtually impossible due to the amount of tension in my head/facial area that drains me of my ability to concentrate (or not concentrate, as it were). Ditto for breathing exercises: I usually can't take deep breaths because when I do I get sharp squeezing pains usually around my stomach area and under my ribs. This is very frustrating as I'd like to try these exercises but my body won't let me. Running makes me very wary too as when I move too fast my heart starts beating very fast and I worry that I'll bring on a heart attack or something by overworking it.

Right now my main health woe is my eyes: Ever since I got my full-time job a few months ago my eyes have been killing me. Constantly watering, itchy and achey to touch, blurred vision, light-headedness... Most people would write these off as anxiety or allergies. I went to see an eye doctor a few weeks ago and he did a battery of tests on my eyes and his conclusion was that it was either allergy-related or from straining my eyes looking at computers (turns out I'm a bit far-sighted). He gave me drops but I still haven't gotten around to using them yet. Despite this visit I still worrying I'm going blind (which to me is one of the worst things I can imagine) and this is one of the causes of my depression. I feel, "why should I bother doing anything if I'm going blind?" Most people would say that if the doctor wasn't too concerned I shouldn't worry, but for all I know I could have qliphoptic vampires feeding off the energy of my nervous system and there's no way he could have detected that. If I could somehow convince myself that these eye problems don not mean I'm going blind maybe I could focus my attention on other areas, but the notion has a way of gripping the mind (and of course I'd probably end up focusing on something else... Like the tingling in my fingertips I've been getting recently, or whatever, and then I'd have a whole new condition to grapple with). It never ends.

Bottom line, I probably, in retrospect, wasn't ready to work with the qabalh yet. When I self-initiated myself into magic over 2 years ago one of my friends warned me to avoid the Tree of Life as it can lead to obsessions, particularily the dark side of it. In retrospect she was probably right as, ever since I've read "The Filth", I've had an obsession with the dark side of the Tree. I should probably add here that my magical workings dealing with this have mostly been regulated to reading a lot about it, thinking a lot about it, and channeling some of that darkness into my stories/art. So, when I say working with the qliphoth I do not mean that I've been doing rituals with their sigils, astrally projecting myself through the tunnels of Set (as I noted above, I've never astrally projected period), doing any type of dreamwork or scrying with them. Mostly just reading. I'm not sure one can evoke demons or magical things just by reading about them (RAW doesn't seem to think so) but they have such a dark mysterious allure I couldn't help but be captivated. So, on one hand the odds that I'm being turned slowly into a qliphopic puppet probably are small, but it's still a looming concern in the back of my mind. But I feel hesitant to just interrupt this whole process as I've been involved in it for over a year now and do I really want to think of a year of my life as having been wasted for nothing (especially my 23rd year?)

When I got into magic I was very cautious (as I've said before my first occult book i ever read was Fortune's "Psychic Self-Defense") but at the same time I was a bit cocky as I thought "Oh, only idiots make mistakes like that. I have nothing to worry about" (there was a time where chaos magic seemed like the least dangerous type of magic one could work with, but now I'm not so sure). The funny thing about this was recently (like last night) I was flipping through Phil Hine's "Condensed Chaos" (which I read towards the beginning of my self-initiation) and I was reading about his chapter on "Is Magic Dangerous?" and I was like "Oh fuck!" Isolation ("Isolation precedes madness"), "Magus-itis" (check), "Obsession" (oh god, and how... "Then there's the "sinister" behavior that sometimes manifests, cultivating a glamour of being an "outsider"... This is often a cover for a lack of social skills, and a gnawing sense of inferiority"), "Cosmic Tragedy" ("So too, one's fears, worries and problems take on a cosmic dimension to the level where you're not merely going through a bad patch but are having a cosmic initiation that no one can possible understand, and is vital to the future of the human race"), Paranoia (check again), "Gnostic Burn-Out" (yup). As I noted above when I read that section some time ago I scoffed and thought "That'll never happen to me." It appears I now have to eat my words.

Bottom line (and I know this takes the apparence of disjointed rambling, I'm sorry), one of the main reasons why I fear change is mostly because I'm afraid that if I do change my life for the better and achieve happiness something terrible will end up happening to me (accident, getting a fatal disease, etc.), or I'll end up being punished in some manner or other. I'm not sure where this fear comes about... My religious upbringing, the attitude of my family (which is pretty much to know your place and not stand out), or what... Then again I'm miserable now so how much worse can it be? I suppose aspects of it can also be traced back to my middle-school years... As a child I was very happy, extroverted and chatty with a large group of friends and I got out a lot, but in middle-school such behaviour drew attention to me and I was bullied a lot. Ever since then when I'm in public I try not to be noticed and try not to stand out, which helps explain my lack of social skills (though in college I did go through a goth phase in which I dressed kinda silly in public, but back then I was slowly getting confidence back).

To wrap this self-absorbed ranting up, I've decided that maybe Gypsy does make a point somewhere back there. While death and disease are my number one fear the other big one is social situations that have the potential to be awkward. If I'd really want to explore my own personal "Nightside of Eden" then those would be the paths on the backside of the Tree of Life. That is, perhaps the qliphoth in my case do not lurk in "dark" areas (which I've been dabbling in all my life and, in a way, have become comfortable with) but are actually "hiding" in the outside world of bright colors, clubs, and other public places most normal people don't fear. In that respect these would probably be my demons lurking on the 22 reverse tunnels (in no particular order):

1. Sex (odd how I can both crave for it yet be terrorfied of it... I blame lack of experience).

2. Going to clubs

3. Dancing in public (during private rituals, no problem, but in real life... forget it, jack.)

4. Flirting with total strangers (or flirting period).

5. Kissing someone (my lips are very dry and usually chapped).

6. Holding hands/hugging/snuggling (fear of intimacy).

7. Going on a date (or to a party, or whatever).

8. Driving on highways

9. Driving in a big city (to say nothing of finding a parking spot).

10. Going to a place I have no idea how to get to.

11. Cross-dressing (or dressing strange) in public.

12. Telling someone that I have a crush on I like them.

13. asking someone out.

14. making a scene in public (being rude, etc.)

15. Not getting enough sleep on nights where I have to work the next day (this has been very bad as of recent).

16. Public speaking (though I have no problems playing music in public as then I'm not really myself, just a character).

17. eating new foods at places I don't usually eat (fear of food poisoning/indigestion/heartburn attack).

18. Being involved in a conversation with more then 2 people at once (I'm always afraid I'll start to say something but then someone else will start to talk and I'll have to stop talking and end up looking foolish).

19. Being the center of attention anywhere (I once skipped a drag show my campus gay alliance group was holding because I was worried my lesbian friends would tell one of the performers to pretend to flirt with me and i just wouldn't know how to react in such a situation).

20. Working out (or doing anything atletic in general).

21. Being far away from my home or comfortable places I know for any prolonged period of time (unless I'm with my family on vacation).

22. Giving people my opinion or telling them what I really think about an idea.

Jeezus Christ, this is a sorry list of fears if I've ever seen one. Now, looking at the list above, these are things that most normal people do every day and have no problem with. Yet I have great difficulty with them as I don't react to change well at all. Obviously the best strategy would be to try each one out over time until I got used to them, but I don't even know where I should start.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
03:31 / 08.06.04
A few comments, Sypha, and some of this is a little stream-of-consciousness because of the paper I should be working on:

Most people would say that if the doctor wasn't too concerned I shouldn't worry, but for all I know I could have qliphoptic vampires feeding off the energy of my nervous system and there's no way he could have detected that.

Actually, that does not logically follow. Even if qliphoptic vampires were the cause, that does not imply that the effects would be undetectable by modern medicine. (You know that Reader's-Digest-style story about the woman doesn't flee the flood warnings on the news because God's going to save her, and then she's on top of her house and she turns down a canoe rescue because God is going to save her, and then she's standing on the chimney and turns down a helicopter rescue because God is going to save her, and she drowns and complains to God and He tells her, "Hey, I warned you with the news broadcast, then I sent you a canoe, then I sent a helicopter..."? That story applies to you, too—don't always doubt technology just because we know how it works.)

...one of the main reasons why I fear change is mostly because I'm afraid that if I do change my life for the better and achieve happiness something terrible will end up happening to me (accident, getting a fatal disease, etc.)...

Actually, I can guarantee that if you change your life for the better and achieve happiness, something terrible will end up happening to you. However, terrible things will happen whether or not you make any positive changes. The vast improvements I've made in my life didn't stop me from getting my heart torn out last year, for instance, but it meant I'd experienced great sadness and great joy, and I certainly wouldn't trade that joy for yet another year of sitting around safely playing videogames.

Finally, I will add my voice to the chorus suggesting you drop magick for a bit. (And, forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, but it sounds like you actually aren't doing magick, just reading about it. I'm sure most of us think about things more than we do them, but if you're only thinking, you're not doing magick. Sorry.) However, if you absolutely can't imagine doing self-change without magickal backup, and you can't get away from this dark side kick (insert snarky comment about 'chaos magicians' who are unwilling to drop a paradigm because they're so invested in it), then shouldn't you be jumping at the chance to experience the humiliation you think that all these fears would cause? Potent dark side mojo, right?

Perhaps your list of fears is a checklist for things you need to do. (We must keep in mind that starting smaller is frequently the best way to achieve personal growth, but bear with me for a moment.) Look at it this way: you can either confront these fears and experience total humiliation, receiving a good 'n nasty Filth-charge to do something useful with, or you'll find out that these things weren't actually as humiliating as you expected—and you can handle doing them again, for their mundane benefits of just getting out of your shell and experiencing a more rewarding relationship with other primates. Even if you lose, you win. (And speaking from personal experience in trying to do humiliating things, I think you're more likely to lose and win than win and lose, if you catch my drift.)

Hope this is coming over just harsh enough; sometimes we all need a swift kick in the ass, and I think your ass-kicking time may have come, m'dear.
 
 
eye landed
07:33 / 08.06.04
What a really shitty bunch of advice.

As a fat, ugly loser with a bad complexion and terrible facial hair (these are just guesses), you should stick with what you do well. I agree you need some human bungle, but striking out to the clubs is as likely to leave you a quivering heap of neurosis as it is to get you healthily laid (repeatedly until all your problems melt away, no less).

Have you tried online personals? Or chats/BBSs? You obviously have the star-like ability to rope in a passel of well-meaning slobs (no offense to the barbe-slobs) to salivate over your e-persona (and these are the parts even you dont like). You must be retarded not to take advantage of that.

Im well-aquainted with fat ugly losers who get plenty of action through online flirting. Next time you download some kind of succubus in mpg format, think how you could instead be spending your time bonding with some other loser who cant smell you or see your ugly mug.

Magick requires confidence, so dont be stupid and throw yourself to the sharks. Use the tools you have: dont just fondle them, and dont throw them away when the fondling doesnt get anything built.

That said, Ill get back to insanity and magick.

After a long time trying, I managed to go crazy myself. I hallucinated a little, my paranoia jumped up and down and dunked my head underwater a few times, and now Ive firmly decided to become a nonperson. Pretty standard 'crazy' stuff: crucify the ego, etc. All the result of a lifetime of depersonalization experiences brought on by the immanence of the eschaton (what is it, 80% these days?). So the interesting thing is: the more crazy I become, the more the world outside my head (i.e. sensory experience and the like) aligns with whats inside my head. Is this just a matter of definition (of craziness)? Is it an apperceptive narrowing? Is it a normal part of growing up, Mom? I think its a fruitless quest to put off external mastery until the internal is complete (and most of you seem to agree). So does anyone mind me spreading my craziness through any means I can manage? Or will you all be happy as long as my name isnt attached?
 
 
eye landed
07:36 / 08.06.04
And how does this all relate to an about-face in my favoured sophistries? It hasnt been long now that Ive been trying my darndest to make myself hard to understand. I think, the less I understand now, the more my future self can understand me. And if I die tomorrow, at least I didnt waste time constructing tight sentences for you wankers.

Misanthropy: try drugs.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
07:41 / 08.06.04
What a really shitty bunch of advice.

D'ya think if I edited it to add "YMMV" it would turn into good advice?
 
 
illmatic
08:25 / 08.06.04
However, terrible things will happen whether or not you make any positive changes.

Yo.

And, forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, but it sounds like you actually aren't doing magick, just reading about it. I'm sure most of us think about things more than we do them, but if you're only thinking, you're not doing magick. Sorry.

Yo.

you'll find out that these things weren't actually as humiliating as you expected

Yo

*high fives Tommy*

And sorry to continue the harshness, mate – particularly as you do seem to have had a bit of a realisation - but I has to address this paragraph.

As for the physical thing, this one is dicey. These days meditation is virtually impossible due to the amount of tension in my head/facial area that drains me of my ability to concentrate (or not concentrate, as it were). Ditto for breathing exercises: I usually can't take deep breaths because when I do I get sharp squeezing pains usually around my stomach area and under my ribs. This is very frustrating as I'd like to try these exercises but my body won't let me. Running makes me very wary too as when I move too fast my heart starts beating very fast and I worry that I'll bring on a heart attack or something by overworking it.

Well, those EM exercises start with warms ups to reduce tension so you can do the exercises properly. You can do the warm ups on their own, which is what I’d recommend – in fact, the first exercise is one on working on facial tensions through pulling faces, which shouldn’t be a problem for anyone unless you’ve just had major plastic surgery. I dunno, the whole tone of this paragraph reminds me of a conversation I had with a mate a few years ago who spent 45 minutes arguing with me about why it was impossible for him to practise meditation –

Well, I’m too tired to do it in the evening.
What about the morning?
Oh, I can’t do it then ‘cos I’m hungry.
Can’t you have a bit of toast?
No I need to fill myself up completely, and then I’m too full.
Can’t you train yourself so you don’t have to?
No, the hunger will destroy my meditation.

And on and on and on. Basically, someone of no small intelligence devoting all his brainpower to excuses so he didn’t have to try (due to fear of failing and leaving his comfort zone) rather than directing his intelligence to finding ways he could succeed. I dunno, I look at lot of motivational material from time to time, and encounter a lot of extraordinary stories. If a guy with no legs can compete in a bloody marathon, to me that says a) I, and you, should be able to step outside our self-imposed limitations and b) pretty much anyone this side of a cardio ward should be able to go for a bloody jog round the block without his heart exploding. What I’m saying is, you’re under no obligation to do any of this. None whatsoever. But it is a matter of personal choice, not insurmountable circumstance. If you choose not do to do something, fine. Just don’t offer up these bloody crap excuses.

I've not interested in a thousand fucking reasons as to why you can't do something. I'm interested in the one reasons that says why you can.
 
 
SteppersFan
08:45 / 08.06.04
Syph, that list of demons wasn't a "sorry list" -- it was a beautiful thing.

Now stop reading all this stuff, and phone your mum and dad if they're still around.

Consider joining a group. Drama, politics, church, it doesn't matter -- all these places are full of socially-challenged people like you and me who are trying to come out of their shell. We're the backbone of society!

If you must read a book, maybe try some Dale Carnegie -- solid, practical advice for the shy.

I mean, you can post on Barbelith like you're a nice guy, so you're !!THIS CLOSE!! to meeting people in the real world comfortably.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
09:07 / 08.06.04
Illmatic reminded me of something a friend told me about meditation (and she was in an Indian monastery for a year): there really isn't a 'right' way. If you can't settle your mind and your muscles are restless and you can only manage five minutes... well, you were still with yourself for a few minutes. Next time will go easier. Or it won't, and the next time will. Regardless, it's always worthwhile.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:26 / 08.06.04
Of course I make a point. I'm not in the business of dicking about online without making a point. And you also seem to have overlooked the fact that, having become hideously bored of reading these attention seeking posts of yours, it would appear that I've decided to give you a finite amount of time to show tangible results in the above areas before cursing you horribly. Which is terribly magnanimous of me as I'm an extremely busy person. You asked for a push, so I'm giving you one. Be careful what you ask for in the future, eh Sypha.

As far as I can tell, all you've really done is look at a bunch of scary books and get a bit panicked. All of this talk about being sapped by qlippothic vampires and worrying about negative psychic charges affecting innocent bystanders is just self indulgent nonsense. Perhaps you actually need the experience of having a bunch of really vicious brutal spirits on your case so you know how to differentiate childish fantasy from full on Dennis Wheatley style occult peril.

Maybe I'm winding you up, maybe I'm not.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:24 / 08.06.04
I went to see an eye doctor a few weeks ago and he did a battery of tests on my eyes and his conclusion was that it was either allergy-related or from straining my eyes looking at computers (turns out I'm a bit far-sighted). He gave me drops but I still haven't gotten around to using them yet.

(Italics mine.)

Perhaps you need to start accepting the basic help which is offered to you by a trained professional, and worry about possible blindness caused by qliphoptic vampires later, if there is still no improvement?
 
 
--
15:34 / 08.06.04
Heh, Substatique, I wouldn't describe myself as a fat, ugly loser with a bad complexion and terrible facial hair... More like very thin, dull looking, pale skin and not much facial hair at all. If you don't believe me here's a pic:

http://www.ttlg.com/photoalbum/ (just scroll down to the name Sypha Nadon... The picture is about a year old but I'm still pretty much the same black-clad type I've been since college).

Illmatic, yes, that reminds me of a time where a friend asked why i didn't exercise and I just kept giving excuses. My mother is very stubborn, so in that aspect I suppose I'm like her. I don't like to admit I'm wrong about things but I'll be the first to admit I'm by no means a well-adjusted person.

2stepfan, I don't need to phone my parents as I still live with them. That's probably part of the problem right there.
I should get my own apartment, but most of my money seems to go to books. This is something I'll need to rectify in the future.

Gypsy, forgive my long attention-seeking posts, I'm very extroverted on-line, probably because I'm not that way in real life (my online friends in other forums usually mock my epic-long ramblings about the most boring, banal topics). But yes, in terms of magic I've done way more reading then doing (in fact the only real magic I've done in the past 6 months is planting sigils in my desire garden, which I've had some success with). There's a reason I usually avoid rituals or astral projection as I'm a little nervous that I'll encounter something my fragile ego just is not ready for. I can't imagine what a full-on occult peril attack would even be like... But maybe it would be better to actually see something then this gnawing worry over mental things that exist only in the mind.

Flyboy, I always procrastinate when I get new medication, usually because I worry about the (admittedly rare) side effects.

Perfect Tommy, I had something to say to you but I gotta run now so may be later.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
18:04 / 08.06.04
You puzzle me a bit Sypha. I mean, to be so desperately concerned about all of the mad occult-hypochondriac stuff that you are, but at the same time be so nonchalant as to actually post a link to a photograph of yourself, when someone is quite blatantly and openly talking about cursing you. You're fantastic!

Will you let me send you a CD of reggae music, a gris gris bag, and instructions for a ritual that will shift all of this shit that's bothering you out of your system, so you can get on with the far more interesting and exciting process of having some fun and becoming a decent magician?
 
 
Secularius
18:43 / 08.06.04
I recently read a book from the 70s, which I picked up from the philosophy of mind/consciousness section in the university library, Mystical Experience by Ben-Ami Scharfstein. He argues very convincingly that the end result of the various mystical traditions, including Buddhism, Yoga, Sufism, Christian mysticism, that of C.G. Jung, William James etc., is actually reminiscent of a psychotic or schizophrenic state. The Buddhist nirvana is then the equivalent of the mental state of an infant in his mother's womb, where the internal and external world is an undifferentiated unity. And the methods to achieve this state is a systematic deprivation of the senses, annihilation of the body and a turning away from the external world to an internal one. Disappointed with the outer world of appearances the mystic falls in love with the Platonic ideas and fancies of his mind, although he might think he's shut down his mind as well. I suppose dabbling with occult methods can be useful up to a point, but I'm really starting to doubt that the end result is something anybody who wants to remain in the world of sane living humans wants to experience.

"The mystic feels that he must recover from the illness which is the ordinary, material world, with its real and seperate people, its fears and desires, and its space and time. When he experiences recovery, he calls out, 'Reality!' He feels born into a new life. But the psychotic is ill with the mystic's cure. If he recovers, he is able to see that he was living in a state of illusion [...]"

The World is a pretty damn interesting place itself, and so are the various living creatures that inhabit it. There's so much to see, taste, hear, touch and feel, that a lifetime wouldn't be enough experience it all. Why should we waste our precious time boggling our mind with questions that have no answers, searching for the unknowable and unseeable? There might be such a thing as "willed schizophrenia" which is the logical result of turning away from the world of "what is" to the world of "what is not". Get a grip of yourself, open up the curtains, breathe in the air and go out to the world. Getting rid of all this "darkside"/filth/qlipoth magickal stuff in a huge bonfire might be a good idea too. I for one have decided to give up all dabblings with the occult or mystical, except perhaps yoga as a practical tool for dealing with anxiety and stress. I feel that I've rekindled my love for life as it is and have no use for revealed or religious "truths" anymore.
 
 
--
02:51 / 09.06.04
Gyspy, I did have some qualms about linking to my picture, but then I thought, "what the hell". When you talk about curses I'm not really taking you all that seriously... Or should I be? Don't give me another reason to be paranoid.

If you want you can send me anything, I love getting stuff in the mail.
 
 
eye landed
06:24 / 09.06.04
This thread continues to get scarier.

I just watched Abre Los Ojos (its far better without Tom Cruise, by the way, or maybe just the second time around). Its about confronting ones inability to create ones own reality: that is, loss of control. The lesson I learned is that you are unlikely to totally lose control of your own reality as long as you respect the reality of other people (that it harm none...).

Im going to check that book out, Secularius, or perhaps some other Scharfstein. Hopefully it will be more of a practical manual than it sounds like from your description! As I said, Ive been trying to assimilate my psychotic processes for tools (make weapons from my imperfections) without too much success.

Nearly every magus knows that a banishing ritual is necessary to keep their mundane life from interfering with the energies of the magickal will (clearing/opening the mind, if you like). But fewer magi seem to talk about keeping their magickal energies out of their daily lives (apart from the common cryptic warnings to 'always close your circles!'). It seems clear that proper opening and closing is all thats needed to prevent magickal insanity, barring malice.

With that in mind, what are your favourite ways to open and close rituals? I use a modified GD pentagram, because its simple and instructions are readily available. I have a version I can do in a few seconds, and I usually improvise each time I open a bigger ritual. I trust the GD far enough to keep most of my demons out, but I always worry that theyve left a backdoor so their secret chiefs can hack my brain whenever they want to. I also find the pentagram inappropriate for rituals outside the hermetic tradition. Lastly, since I have immediate plans to move to an abode with more floorspace, Im interested in the creation of some permanent ritual space.

I realize Im dragging the thread around the perimeter of rotsville, so perhaps yall could keep your responses relevant, and point me to a thread on banishing.

I found these:

http://www.barbelith.com/topic/8424
http://www.barbelith.com/topic/16117
http://www.barbelith.com/topic/10927

...but I havent read them yet. Ill bump one myself if it looks good. Or Ill start one if Im not satisfied. Please let me know if there are more threads on banishing out there.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:34 / 09.06.04
I read Ben-Ami Scharfstein's Mystical Experience a few years ago and still have one of his opening shots on file: "mysticism is...a name for the paranoid darkness in which unbalanced people stumble so confidently"

Scharfstein's application of psychological diagnostic categories to varieties of mystical/spiritual experience is interesting, but hardly new. After all, Freud made the link between mystical undifferentiated unity and regression to what he termed "primary narcissism" and other writers such as Joseph Campbell and Joan Halifax have made similar arguments for correlating mythic/shamanic experience with Western diagnostic categories.

Here's a paper by Dr. David Lukoff arguing for for a more rigorous approach to the understanding of mystical states with respect to clinical diagnosis.

Critics of this approach have pointed out this approach is profoundly ethnocentric (priviliging western categorisations of experience over those of other cultures) and, moreover, that studies of people reporting mystical experience have actually scored lower on psychopathology scales and higher on psychological well-being scales than controls. Field studies on shamans in various cultures have also reported similar findings.
 
 
illmatic
08:57 / 09.06.04
but I'm really starting to doubt that the end result is something anybody who wants to remain in the world of sane living humans wants to experience.

Hmmm, I dunno about that, you might want to do a search for the thread called "The Annals of The Enlightened Ones" - basically, I was trying to collect together first person accounts of mystical experience, to draw some comparisons and form a view. Most of the accounts I've read hold some fascination for me, and most practiconers give a positive tint to their experience (you could argue: well, they would, wouldn't they?). I also think the guy you cite is on suspect ground if he is generalising all mystical experience as being aspects of the same phenomena. There seems some difference between the realisations reached about the self in say, the philosophical traditons of Zen or Ch'an Buddhism (see Wu Wei Wu's book in the thread cited above) with say, those reported by Christian mystics.

I'd add, I in no way see Magick or occultism as a rejection of life. There's a lot of techniques there that help me through it, and help me make sense of it. That's what I've been arguing for (with Sypha) throughout this thread!
 
 
SteppersFan
12:43 / 09.06.04
but I'm really starting to doubt that the end result is something anybody who wants to remain in the world of sane living humans wants to experience.

An understandable point of view. And let's face it, magick does have a tendency to produce such dark experiences. Or, often, magick comes up in your life some time before the dark experience. An example: I was initiated into Wicca. It was great. Then my father was diagnosed with cancer, he died, and my family fell apart. Wiccan magick helped me get through it, and actually arrived in my life at the perfect time to do so.

Nevertheless, I think it's erroneous to suggest that magick necessarily means you're forced out of consensus reality. It's just not true. This is increasingly true as you get past thirty. But I suspect that life itself forces one to at times depart from consensus reality, especially when you're young, and that magick can be a response to that.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:45 / 09.06.04
i think those dark experiences are nessecary to a point, i think all that shit that gets pushed down inside has to be delt with, its just a case of how you choose to deal with it.

getting all scatological for a period of years may in the long run have helped get me to where i am going to day, ie on reflection all of that may of needed to have happened for me to understand certain things a little better, and i do understand my own motivations alot better than i used to, especially what would be described as unconscious motivations.

yet on another level it still scared the crap out of me and my immediate reaction to somebody having to go through the same kind of hellish shite is to try and stop them, i think my main point is this, imo it needs to be faced and dealt with so a personal evolution can take place, what ever that maybe to you, to dwell in it and use all sorts of excuses is to stop the emergence, a denial of the change and also a fear of change tended to motivate this in me. i am reading alot of fear of change.

it doesnt have to happen all at once but the only person that can effect that chnage is you, no book or other consumer product can do it for you even the sickest shit in any media format is just a comfort zone in comparisson to the primordial aspects of self. if you run off an hide behind academic explanations of it or somebody elses dreaming of it your not facing it, just dancing with other peoples darkness, it might give you something to relate too, but imo you need to be relating too your own self and own shadow and then dealing with it. you cant do that while immersing your self in a mediated experience of that.

once faced, as much as you can, get out, shag somebody, make some friends, take off the masks, face the fear of being rejected and hurt, we all get hurt, as much as it may make us feel special to be involved with magick, underneath it all were the same as every other fucker.

take away the books the hair cut the clothing etc and you and i are just naked human beings, its just learning to deal with it. alternatively choose an image and hide in it and stay hidden from yourself. ive been doing that for a long time and occasionally still run back to it.

all the occult books and religous books wont teach you a thing about magick in my opinion, but they pass the time dont they? and occasionally have an intresting story for a while, but the magick isnt in the books.take up a practice, any practice will do, communicate with spirit.
 
 
illmatic
14:28 / 09.06.04
Top post mate.
 
  

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