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Magick and Mental Illness

  
  

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Nalyd Khezr Bey
09:10 / 03.06.04
I personally think in Magick, self-induced brain-change brings you to, what R. A. Wilson calls, Chapel Perilous, which appears to be very similar to the symptoms of schizophrenia. I went through an extreme initiation through "Chapel Perilous" back in 1994-95 in much the same way Wilson describes in Cosmic Trigger, only without the aid of psychedelics. And I have been trying to get back to that ultimate state of awareness, where the really weird stuff starts happening, ever since. You come out on the other side of these "reality tests" completely changed. As Wilson says in Trigger, "You come out the other side either a stone paranoid or an agnostic; there is no third way." To put it into "magickal" terms Wilson also says this:

Quote:
Everything you fear is waiting with slavering jaws in Chapel Perilous, but if you are armed with the wand of intuition, the cup of sympathy, the sword of reason and the pentacle of valor, you will find there (the legends say) the Medicine of Metals, the Elixir of Life, the Philosopher's Stone, True Wisdom and Perfect Happiness.

The difference would be that a schizophrenic does not realize that they are permanently living in Chapel Perilous, and not by choice. Another case to study, related to Magickal practice, would be Frater Achad (Charles Stansfeld Jones). He allegedly took the Oath of the Abyss and became a "schizophrenic" or a genius depending on who is looking. If I remember correctly, and someone else may be able to correct me here, Frater Achad ended up naked in the streets of a Canadian city (I forget which one). The life of Science Fiction writer Phillip K. Dick, may be worthy of note here also. He started to experience "reality" similar to the characters and themes in his own fiction. If you can get a hold of his Exegesis you will see the writings of someone trying to understand the not-so-understandable. He "fictionalized" his experiences in the VALIS trilogy and Radio Free Albemuth for anyone interested. He seemed to have had a "schizophrenic" experience, partially induced by mega-doses of vitamins, some sort of pain-killer, and an abscessed tooth (I think), but came out the other side perfectly sane as far as I can tell. He tried to make sense of it for the rest of his life by writing it all down in the "exegesis" (some may say that is insane). All of these things that Wilson and Dick are talking about in their books; hearing voices, hallucinations, contact with higher intelligence, religious experiences, paranoia, numerical obsessions, etc. are also common symptoms of schizophrenia.
 
 
Freakuency
10:04 / 03.06.04
Those really are valid point and I wsh I knew more on schizofrenia to draw some of my own conclusions.
Perhaps the impression of schizophrenia as a condition to explain the 'denizens of Chapel Perilous',is just another of the twists and turns of the Chapel Perilous itself.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
10:44 / 03.06.04
Broadly speaking, the difference between someone suffering from mental illness and a magician is one of intent. The schizophrenic is someone who finds it difficult to function in the world due to the chapel perilous experience. The magician is someone who utilises the chapel perilous experience in order to function more effectively in the world. What differentiates a magician from a schizophrenic is the ability to successfully navigate chapel perilous and bring back good gear that has some practical or beneficial purpose. A good magician is someone who can do this really effectively without getting entirely lost in their own craziness. It's about walking between worlds, not disappearing up your own arse. For instance, I know a few magicans whose magical practices and day-to-day belief systems would make even the maddest inhabitant of Bedlam a bit edgy, but balance that with day jobs that directly effect the lives of everyone living in the UK.

You need to develop a specific skill set in order to function like this, "magician" is not a state of being like "schizophrenic"; it's more of a profession, like "doctor". To couch it in Wilson's terms, the skills you need are vaguely analogous to the qualities represented by the cup, the wand, the sword and the pentacle.

"You come out the other side either a stone paranoid or an agnostic; there is no third way."R.A.Wilson

I don't entirely agree with that statement. In a certain sense, agnosticism is as much of a belief system as any other, and the degree to which a person might be considered a "stone paranoid" is extremely relative. There's always a third way. Never trust a hippy.
 
 
_Boboss
10:52 / 03.06.04
the difference, i think and to quote jung on seeing finnegans wake, is similar to that between swimming and drowning.
 
 
SteppersFan
12:36 / 03.06.04
Duh.

What Gambit said.

(Who cares if I'm compressing 500 years of esoteric thought on the comparisons between transcendence and madness into one glib comment...)
 
 
illmatic
13:01 / 03.06.04
Would you care to expand on your experience in the 90s - what happened to you etc. and what do you think caused it?Were you doing a lot of magick, or drugs, at the time?
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:36 / 03.06.04
http://www.bbsonline.org/documents/a/00/00/11/88/bbs00001188-00/jburns.htm


http://cogprints.ecs.soton.ac.uk/archive/00000839/00/schizophrenia.pdf


http://www.bu.edu/cpr/catalog/articles/2002/russinova2002.pdf

http://website.lineone.net/~crowseed/sands/skztreat.html

http://www.jungcircle.com/SQuest.html

some differing ideas for you too see mr wilsons ideas are very limited, thou intresting as a leaping board, just make sure the pool is full, and not empty.
 
 
Henningjohnathan
15:14 / 03.06.04
Reminds me of a scene in ALTERED STATES where Eddie Jessup talks about schizophrenics and how they seem to be making physical changes in their body to match the way they see themselves in visions. Emily asks him if he's looking for a cure, and he replies:

"I'm not even sure if it's a disease."
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:38 / 03.06.04
http://www.liv.ac.uk/researchintelligence/issue14/language.html

another ingredient to add to the caul-drone.
 
 
macrophage
21:52 / 03.06.04
Depend what perspective and postion you want to adopt really. Let's face it the whole world's barking. Look at people like Deleuze and that for a different view. Yer average Joe inhabits strange twisted states alot of the time, from depression, psychosis to shizoid behaviours. I favour people like Laing, Jung, etc... as they are most holistic in their views. And let's face it they say the best shrinks are ones who have touched the symptons that they like to catgorise with. Viva DSM!!!! The whole abyss experience surely is an analogy for rebirth. Like the Tower card look at LOTR the Dark Tower has to go in order for a new balance to exist. Achad may have lost it but he picked it up again eventually, that's what happens when you start taking it too obessive. You still got "mundane" responsiblities. Self deification as opposed to self destruction in its totality. Losing yourself on the astral plane aint gonna pay the bills. We all have our moments.
 
 
--
00:20 / 04.06.04
Yeah, I've often wondered about this too. Recently things have been decidedly odd for me, making me wonder if I'm either eccentric or nuts. Fortunetly, I've never heard voices, never had a hallucination (except for one vision upon awakening last september) so I think I merely think I'm going crazy and most probably suffer anxiety. Sometimes I think I'm not really emotionally stable enough to be a magician. I don't know. Seems like my head's always in a weird state.
 
 
--
00:23 / 04.06.04
One other thing, someone mentioned something about disappearing up your own ass. I think I may of been suffering from that recently. For the last year or so I've been very hermitish, reading bizarre occult books and other esoterica and blending all my influences under a single banner i like to call "Evoligion." My mistake was when I posted it to my normal on-line friends and they told me I needed to get out more. On the plus side I've slowly begun to create a magical system of my own that works, but the downside is that it's been to the detriment of my social life and may even of added to my neurosis'. Still, I guess the art requires a sacrifice.
 
 
---
01:34 / 04.06.04
One other thing, someone mentioned something about disappearing up your own ass. I think I may of been suffering from that recently.

Ha, i've just kind of walked that corridor of Chapel P myself, hence my total cutting down with posting here, i think it's natural that we go through this phase at some stage though. (or from time to time in my case)

On the plus side I've slowly begun to create a magical system of my own that works, but the downside is that it's been to the detriment of my social life and may even of added to my neurosis'.

Yeah a lot of that rings true with me too, definately the second part of that. (obviously if you've read some of my stuff since i joined here a few months back you'll know this)

Still, I guess the art requires a sacrifice.

Exactly, and when you realize your essence again it pays off and is worthwhile, especially if you've put a lot on the line to try and attain what you think is the best thing for yourself as a whole.

I was just going out tonight to the shop and this came to my head and was my reassurance (literally like a voice in my head):

'Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.'
 
 
illmatic
08:49 / 04.06.04
Sypha - Why does a magickal path necessitate the amputation of your social life? IMO, a magickal path should take you towards the world, not lock you away from it. Going out and doing something you find challenging - like going to a nightclub, dancing all night and flirting with people previously "out of your league" can be a great, liberating magickal act, surely? And sounds like exactly what you need, if I may be so bold.

It's been said before that Crowley's greatest act of magick was his life, not just the reception of the Book of the Law, and look at it - mountain climbing, travel and exploration, publishing the most improable and unmarketable books and poetry, scores of lovers, heaps of drugs, declaring himself the singualr force who had set the course of the next 2000 years - hardly an aestic, was he? I think your online friends might have the right idea...
 
 
Nalyd Khezr Bey
09:31 / 04.06.04
I do not have a lot of time right now to get into my personal experiences that someone asked that I share, but I will say I'm glad everyone is getting something out of this little topic. I will say that my intention was not to say that mental illness, or schizophrenia, is the desired result of Magickal practice, just trying to make the comparison between them. I do think Magickal practices can easily lead to mental illness if you fall into the trappings, like Peter Carroll's "abbysses" he describes in PsyberMagick. "Never trust a hippy?" Haha. I don't know if I would consider Pope Bob a hippy. I have an affinity for Wilson's ideas because it was his books that have helped me avoid the trappings more than any others. Wilson is referring to model-agnosticism which is my meta-belief structure as well. Whether there is a third way out of Chapel Perilous or not, I don't know. I happened to come out of it with my current perspective of model-agnosticism and it took me a couple of years to come to terms with that. I could have easily ended up a paranoid (mentally ill). As far as my original post, and everyone thinking I have not taken enough into account, I agree. It was just to get this topic started, I thought it was a good way to do it. If I were to try to take it all into account right off the top I would've had to have written a book. Haha.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:55 / 04.06.04
the 3rd way, no relation to the fourth way, is absolute faith in the universe, which could be reflected in too one dogma or another, or could remain flexible inside the individual adapting to each potential expression, even absolute faith doesnt have to be fixed from a certain kind of view, most people run from it because it smacks of monotheism and one of the reasons people are attracted to differing spiritualitys is too escape that, but faith, absolute faith can be applied to everything.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:41 / 04.06.04
I think I'd probably agree with that, faith is not the same as dogma.
 
 
FinderWolf
12:53 / 04.06.04
I've used magick (plus years of therapy and intent and self-relfection) to cure mental illness over the course of several years, for what it's worth.
 
 
Nalyd Khezr Bey
19:57 / 04.06.04
Sypha Nadon wrote : "I've slowly begun to create a magical system of my own that works, but the downside is that it's been to the detriment of my social life and may even of added to my neurosis'. Still, I guess the art requires a sacrifice."
I agree with Illmatic here. You seem to have fallen into the trappings I've mentioned. Magick is a means to an end, not the end in itself. If Magick has become an obsession you may need to take a holiday. Magick is a tool to help take "realities" head on, not escape from them. You have mistaken the map for the territory. What is the magickal system you've created used for? If anything, Magickal practices should help your social skills.
Illmatic mentioned Crowley and the life he lived, YES, he lived a very "intentional" life, hence Magickal.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
20:34 / 04.06.04
I spent the better part of the last year in a "Chapel Perilous" situation, confronting and being confronted with my weaknesses and unknown motivations that have been disturbing me for the past several years (let alone trailing back into adolesence). Not out yet, but getting there.

Language helps. Binding agent, isn't it?

Magic played a large role in dealing with the various problems but also created the expected obsessions. Still getting over that one - the challenge now is to integrate the magical into the greater whole of my life instead of becoming an isolatory, esoteric nutjob. Paranoia? Don't need to worry about that - that was a demon from the beginning.

And I do think there is a third way. In my mind everything spins on a circular model - there is A, B, Both, and Neither. Things spin between them. I am not coming out of CP a paranoid, but nor am I coming out an agnostic. That's not in my temperment and a big part of what this trip has been about is integrating the spiritual and magical into my worldspace. Don't know what to call that 'other' exit.
 
 
charrellz
01:09 / 05.06.04
pick up Aldous Huxley's Doors of Perception and Heaven and Hell (usually packaged together). It describes how drug use, religious experience, and schizophrenia are all similar. The basic idea is from Blake's concept that 'cleansing' the minds filters will open you up to the infinity that is reality. This could be a mescalin induced hallucination, gnosis, or the delusions/hallucinations of a schizophrenic. These essays are quite full of good ideas and wonderful writing. Read immediatly. Then read it again. I'm rambling.
 
 
--
01:18 / 05.06.04
Chapel Perilous is a place I'm very well aquainted with... A second home, if you will. My entrance to it began with paranoia... Namely, the bad timing on my part to read the Illuminatus Trilogy and some of David Icke's stuff around the time that someone on here posted something about reptilian spirits entering our reality in May of 2003. After this event my health went into an alarming decline, around the same time I began my "feeding the beast" experiments, that is, exploring the so-called "shadow-self".

Illmatic, I wouldn't say magic amputated my social life, because to be honest I've never really had one. Most people I know are part of some kind of group or club, or hang out with friends, but I don't really have that. I get up in the morning, go to work, come home. On my days off I stay in and read. Every now and then I'll go for a walk or (more usually) go shopping. I had a thread awhile ago wondering if by becoming a magician I was just isolating myself further from the world, and that still seems to be the case. Certain conditioning I've been unable to shake despite my sincerest efforts, and this is coming from someone who has read countless books on psychology, meditation, undoing yourself, reprogramming your mind, blah blah blah... I'm well informed on the subject but it seems like I'm throwing money down the toilet as I'm still pretty much the same person I've always been. Recently I posted a thread in the laboratory section of this site that goes into my health obsession and whatnot... I live in a near constant state of anxiety, tension and fear bordering on hysteria, yet somehow I've managed to hold a full-time job and appear normal on the surface. However, I feel that my mask of sanity is slipping away at an alarming rate and I really am worried I'm on the verge of an explosive nervous breakdown sometime in the future. Where all this angst and tension comes from I still have no idea. Going to clubs, flirting (something I've never even done period) and dancing seem like threatening things to me because I'm uncomfortable expressing myself in public due to fears that everyone will be analyzing my every movement with microscopic scrutiny. The people I admire the most are the free spirits who act on whims and are very open publicly, but I'm so armored by this point that I can't really imagine myself ever getting to that stage. I think I may need to get help from other people... Maybe I need a push. More on this at a later date.

I agree with Seamus that magic can cause obsession. In my case as of the last few months it's been an obsession with the qliphoth and the so-called "Tree of Death" (not to mention "The Filth" comic, the symbols and motifs of which I'm currently assimilating into my system). As of recent I've been planning on exploring the 32 reverse paths of the Tree of Life one by one through the use of power electronics noise music, "The Filth" and masturbating over the sickest not-self stuff I can think of, then anointing each path with the semen. However I'm not sure what the purpose of this experiment is, other then the oppurtunity then to do something sinister. As it is I haven't had to feed the beast in some time now, so I assume for the moment it's satiated. My current obsession is Spongebob Squarepants.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
04:37 / 05.06.04
masturbating over the sickest not-self stuff I can think of... However I'm not sure what the purpose of this experiment is, other then the oppurtunity then to do something sinister.

Something sinister to yourself, maybe. If you don't have an intent, what's the purpose of the working? Isn't this another step towards hamstringing your own life all the more? Gypsy made a good point earlier - the difference between magic and insanity lies in one's intentions. This doesn't have overt intent, but it seems to encourage failing health, anxiety attacks, and paranoia. Maybe you shouldn't permit this system to work through you anymore. It sounds like more of an albatross around the neck than a liberating force.

If I were you, I'd take all my research, all my notes, all my workings and diagrams - and burn it all ritualistically. If you really want to change yourself, get rid of this stuff, this psychic detrius, and let that liberation act as your next big obsessive working. Learn the Horse Stance - a Tai Chi meditative work - knees bent, arms away from body and up to eye level, held for 20 minutes. Do it until you can readily slip into a receptive altered state. Make a sigil-signature, a voodoo doll, some representation of yourself. Take it to a shooting range, go into the Horse Stance with a gun in hands and the self-representation in sight. Put a few smoking holes through your 'self.' Leave the (preferably indoor) range and emerge into a bright blue day. Start fresh.
 
 
harmonic series
04:59 / 05.06.04
I happened to enter this horrible abyss piece by piece, book by book page, until it took me to a very real situation that I will regret for the rest of my life. It is dangerous stuff because of the poeple and the places to which it leads one. On top of it all, the mind is in a paranoid schizophrenic state, and so the person acting does not have a clear concept of time, reality, or consequence. Now my life is in pieces, and I just got out of the hospital. And I don't feel like I have ability left any more, if I do, it is minimal. I'm going to try and fix at least that part of it, but it includes backtracking so I think it may be ugly. Can one backtrack throuh Daat, and into a point in time, or on the tree, namely Kether. I need to recreate a situation, without recreating it exactly. It involves a long bus ride to a plane ride, the latter being the point in time to which I must return. Is there a way to recreate what the outcome would be on the other side, and the magical cirumstances of the entrance? I've gotta decide if I want to do it by tomorrow. Everyone thinks I'm crazy by the way. But am I??
 
 
eye landed
11:04 / 05.06.04
Some of us can't find our way back from wonderland. The rest can't find their way to the bottom of a rabbit hole. H@!
 
 
Seth
11:21 / 05.06.04
Purpose: dunno if you're crazy or not, but from what I gather you want to create some sense of alternate history to diffuse the trauma you experienced. I know some techniques that can help with that, but it's not really something that you can do solo from reading a web page. I might be able to direct you to someone in your area who can help, though.

I think everyone occasionally feels like a complete nutbar. Over the last seven months I've ended a seven year relationship, moved house twice, changed job, been involved with a couple of relationships that I probably should have steered clear of, radically changed my spirituality, learned NLP, joined a band of noisy no-wavers and am now thinking of leaving the country for a while (and that's not even close to half of it). It's been a catalogue of bizarro synchronicites, dreams, shamanic work and extremely good friendships (which is the best magic gets). I wouldn't have been human if I hadn't felt a little bonkers at points, but the feeling never lasts that long. Feelings are useful to pay attention to but they're not particularly true, after all.

I was having a conversation with Jack the Bodiless in the pub the other night, and his untested assumption was that it's not possible to question one's core programming without going loopy, either in the short term or permanently. I can see why he'd say that, but it doesn't fit with my experience. I can't think of any part of myself that hasn't changed in some respect since last Halloween. It's been an adventure, and I think that's what's made the difference: I've thrown myself fully into all the changes, faced everything at the right time, didn't back down. I have a deep seated belief that I will live my life happy, healthy and whole, and it tends to effect my perspective on everything I do or have done to me. I know that any loopiness I feel in the short-term will blow through me and pass, to be replaced by something else, which will then blow through me and be replaced by something else. It's exactly the right year to be doing this kind of thing, if you believe Chinese astrology.

Lift to Experience: "These are the days that must happen to you."
 
 
Skeleton Camera
11:54 / 05.06.04
Chinese astrology has had a lot to do with my year as well. In that light the time leading up to January - 6 months or so - were the final twitches of my neurotic self. This was also the time in which I finally 'bound' or 'exorcised' the main demon I was dealing with. From there it was persona collapse and sending-off. January began and I plunged off my bike and broke my dominant hand, three days into the new semester, as if the Universe were saying "No running from this change now!" And on top of THAT...well, you get the idea.

And none of it has been negative per se. It has been extremely transformative and oftentimes painful, forcing me to make changes that I know I must (such as ending a 4-year love relationship) and deal with some shady or repressed aspects of myself. The pain comes from the reactions of those around me. I am fairly well-balanced psychologically and understand my own transformations well. But when I see them causing pain to others I regress and feel tremendously guilty.

I don't trust this last impulse as it seems (and is, has been) tremendously self-destructive and paralyzing. Maybe it's the final beast in this Chapel.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
11:55 / 05.06.04
Oh yea, the point of the astrological comment was that this is the YEAR OF THE MONKEY. So there's a lot of trickiness, a lot of confrontation, and a painfully wicked sense of humor behind it all.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:47 / 05.06.04
Is there anything that people 'outside' can do to help someone who is in Chapel Perilous, or is it part of the path the magician MUST walk alone? If so, what must the magician do to come out of Chapel Perilous (more or less) sane? I'm just wondering, knowing nothing about psychiatry or magic, whether there are elements in dealing with the latter that can help in dealing with the former. I agree with what Gypsy Lantern said about the intent, but it does sound from descriptions I've come across that there is a certain similarity in experience, enough so it might be worth investigating as an alternative to medication.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:51 / 05.06.04
Where all this angst and tension comes from I still have no idea. Going to clubs, flirting (something I've never even done period) and dancing seem like threatening things to me because I'm uncomfortable expressing myself in public due to fears that everyone will be analyzing my every movement with microscopic scrutiny. The people I admire the most are the free spirits who act on whims and are very open publicly, but I'm so armored by this point that I can't really imagine myself ever getting to that stage.

And that, Sypha, in my estimation, is exactly what your magical career should be about. I think it's painfully obvious where all of your angst and tension is coming from, and I'd speculate that all of the Filth inspired "feeding the beast" stuff you're engaging with is just a suitably sinister comfort zone to help you avoid dealing with the real issues. The real scary stuff.

If you want to explore the darker aspects of your being, you don't do it in a formulaic by-the book trangressive practice kind of way, eating your own semen and so forth, you do it by bravely confronting all of the things that seem terrifyingly threatening to you personally - and seem to challenge the very nature of your sense of self. The things that really seem impossible and outside of your scope of operation.

To labour my point:

Going to clubs, flirting (something I've never even done period) and dancing seem like threatening things...but I'm so armored by this point that I can't really imagine myself ever getting to that stage.

If you're in the business of taboo breaking, then this is exactly the sort of stuff you should be confronting, challenging and integrating. You should create for yourself an entire magical system based about going to clubs, dancing, and getting laid in every conceivable sense. That's your magical career right there. That's what you have to sort out within your lifetime, that process of internal alchemy that will move you beyond the perceived constraints that make your soul feel crushed and limited and withered away and allow your soul its full expression. You need to conquer these demons within yourself in order to be whole. You are fortunate enough to have been given the magical tools to find your way to fixing all of this within your lifetime, and it's up to you to rise to the challenge of resolving these issues. It's a challenging road and you've probably got your work cut out for you, but having read quite a lot of your posts over past year or so, I'd speculate that this might be the key to your magical career. Only you can engage with this stuff and sort it out. Now go and fucking do it, or I'll put a nasty hoodoo curse on you.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:03 / 05.06.04
I'm uncomfortable expressing myself in public due to fears that everyone will be analyzing my every movement with microscopic scrutiny. The people I admire the most are the free spirits who act on whims and are very open publicly

If you can track down a copy of it, which is highly unlikely as it's an extremely rare manuscript, you should read Chapter 4 of The Vodon Tantra Rocksteady Workbook entitled "Skanking Without Tears". It provides a number of yogic hoodoo dance maneouveres designed to "nice up the middle pillar".
 
 
--
14:12 / 05.06.04
Okay, I'll have to keep an eye out for that Gypsy, but I doubt I'll find it... Hell, I've still had no luck tracking down an affordable copy of the "Voudoun Gnostic Workbook", and that tome I've been searching for for about 2 years now. It's become my holy grail.
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:32 / 05.06.04
a line i remember from one of mr wilsons books.

an old chinese proverb or some such.

"you can only walk half way into the darkest forest and then you are coming out the otherside."

out of the church out of the grave yard into the surrounding country to rest a while before you make your way back to the village.

the villagers are all swimming in the same bowl of soup, they all experience as different flavours.

god is soup! primal soup?
 
 
macrophage
16:54 / 05.06.04
Don't worry everything will work out fine! I always thought in order to master the Nightside Tunnels of Set that you should manage the Dayside first. Get on with life, don't let Magick restrict you, if it acts as a hindrance, then drop it for later - Magick should enrich life not fight with it! You can't let obsessions with largely priced collector books overtake you, make yer own system up that suits you down to the ground. Nowt wrong with a smattering of the Nightside but we all need our Dayside!!!! Use Magick to help you - not fuck you up.
 
 
Nalyd Khezr Bey
20:39 / 05.06.04
In that vein I will mention that Wilson's Cosmic Trigger II was subtitled "Down to Earth". There may be a reason for that.
 
  

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