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Canadians, explain yourselves.

 
  

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lekvar
15:59 / 27.05.04
Hello, Canada. This is the situation: I can no longer comfortably associate with a nation that would put a second Bush in office. WIth a few delightful exceptions, my countrymen disgust me. For years I worked for change, but somethings just can't be fixed. My girlfriend and I have been discussing our options, and Canada keeps appearing at the top of the list.

The problem with this is that I am almost completely ignorant about my neighbors to the north.

This is what I know about Canada:

  • You've given us your best comedians and your worst musicians.

  • You have universal heath care.

  • There is a strong manufacturing base, and, I would assume, a robust middle-class as a result.

  • Your comics cost WAY more than ours, despite the fact that most of them are actually printed in your country.

  • You pay more taxes than we do.

  • You respect animators. I like that in a nation.



I have gone to the Canadian Govt. website and found that both my girlfriend and I are elligible for citizenship. I have seen the stats on your standard of living at the WHO and UN websites. I know that the industry I work in, printing and graphic design, are strong.

But I don't actually KNOW anything about Canada. If you watch US television (I try not to) you get the impression that Canada is filled with nothing but moose, Mounties, fur trappers and Quebec.

So tell me, Canadians, about your country. Tell me about your lives, your schooling experiences, jobs, leisure activities.
 
 
sleazenation
16:06 / 27.05.04
If your assumptions are correct, i'm guessing
*You have universal heath care.
might be because
* You pay more taxes than we do...
 
 
passer
17:46 / 27.05.04
I'm not Canadian, but I want to be and I am actively working toward acclimating by spending lots of time there (2 months/year). Does that count?

Canada’s a lot like the US, except Canadians are friendlier, cleaner, and better educated. And in my biased opinion, are much more attractive than Americans. (Although I think they put something in the water, because on average they are also very tall.)*

And on a side note, isn't this more of a conversation thread than a switchboard thread? Mods?


*Hopefully, it is obvious that I am clearly making this up.
 
 
lekvar
18:06 / 27.05.04
To be more specific, I'm wondering about things like racism and the pervasive anti-intellectual atmosphere I encounter down here. I've heard that neither are as common in the Great White North, but I have no direct testimony. Also, how are expatriate US citizens received?
 
 
grant
20:23 / 27.05.04
Wellllll.... (caveat: the closest I've come to Canada is staring balefully across Lake Champlain... and sneering at "Je me souviens" license plates in my home town)
...two notes on racism in Canada.

1. They're a lot more whitey whitey whitebread than the US as a whole.
2. They do tend to have occasional armed uprisings from oppressed racial minorities.
See The Globe And Mail's "Canada's Apartheid" series for more.
 
 
kiwi
20:41 / 27.05.04
I am canadian and i can assure you that racism while present (isn't it everywhere ?) Is really really less intense. We are more leftwing than the U.S. And we are pretty friendly. I went to the united staes a couple of times (Boston , Philadelphia , New York, FLorida) And i was really surprised to see the level of individualism that reigns there. Nobody is ready to help a stranger, Salut somebody and he does not even smile back at you..
 
 
phrankphutta
23:55 / 27.05.04
Greetings from The Great White North! I'll do my best to represent my nation and field your questions/concerns.

You've given us your best comedians and your worst musicians.

Come on now. For every Alanis Morissette/Celine Dion/Nickelback, there's a Sarah McLachlan or a Barenaked Ladies just around the bend. You might want to check out Sloan, Ashley MacIsaac, and Great Big Sea, also.
(Note: I fucking hate Rush)

You have universal heath care.

Yes, we do. And it's every bit as good as it sounds.

There is a strong manufacturing base, and, I would assume, a robust middle-class as a result.

You bet. That fact, coupled with our diverse climate, results in a hearty people with solid work ethic. Plus our dollar is completely worthless to you, so you'll be a rich man after the initial exchange.

Your comics cost WAY more than ours, despite the fact that most of them are actually printed in your country.

There's that pesky exchange rate again...beer and cigarettes are way more expensive too.

You pay more taxes than we do.

That's for Universal Healthcare n' shit.

You respect animators. I like that in a nation.

Agreed.

Some other things you might want to consider:

- You can't get beer at a corner store here.

- Handguns are illegal.

- Yes, it actually is that fucking cold here in the winter.

- We actually do say "eh"...a LOT.

- You have a better chance of seeing someone in a kilt here than you would in the US.

- Everything's bilingual. I had an American teacher in High School who was afraid to go shopping for her first 6 months here because "it felt like all the stuff on the shelves was French-side-out"

- We are on the verge of the complete decriminalization of marijuana.

- No Dubya.

Overall, I think you should move here. You sound pretty fed up with the current state of affairs in the US, and we could use more people like you up here. In the long run though, it doesnt really matter, because as soon as the US realizes it's getting low on natural resources, they'll waltz in and take everything right out from under us anyway.

Cheers!
 
 
Cailín
00:16 / 28.05.04
They're a lot more whitey whitey whitebread than the US as a whole. .
Excuse me while I guffaw from my home in the most cosmopolitan city in the world (Toronto, not New York, as voted five times in a row by the UN). Deep breath. I was about ready to take offence. While Canada, like any country, does have a certain amount of prejudice, it is certainly not systemic. The troubles between the Canadian government and our aboriginal people is far too complex an issue to be summed up as simple racism - it's an issue of balance that I think concerns us all, and which the vast majority of us would like to see come to some equitable solution for everyone.
With that addressed, I have to say that I love being a Canadian. We are a little quieter in the international arena, which is probably why we are well received all over the world (on a recent trip to England I was amused by how quickly attitudes toward me improved when I corrected anyone who referred to me as an American). We have higher taxes, however we do have universal healthcare (with certain restrictions - there are no free boob jobs, unless you've had a mastectomy), social assistance programs, and far more affordable education (my tuition for the last year was about $5000.00 Canadian, which is about $3700.00 US). I'm proud of my home - there is a lot of opportunity here. Depending on where you live, housing can be very cheap or very expensive, and that's about all I can tell you about that - it's hit and miss from coast to coast to coast. We're on three oceans. I think that's kind of neat. Cities are quite often split up into ethnic neighbourhoods - like anywhere with lots of immigration. However, in the past seven years, I have not lived in a WASP neighbourhood (I'm a blue-eyed blond girl), but I have had no major problems - some of my neighbours seemed rather cautious about me, maybe even suspicious, but for the most part people have been friendly.
It's not so easy to buy a gun here. But, recently, there has been a lot of press about gun violence this side of the border. The debate is as to whether the violence is increasing or just the media coverage. It could be either.
So we're not all moose and Mounties (actually, the FBI sends seized MacIntosh computers to the RCMP Mac lab when they need them dissected). For the most part, we're more than happy to be welcoming to any ex-pat, so long as they're willing to work, play by the rules (the rules are pretty loose) and make an effort to be flexible - this place does require an adjustment, because the priorities are different. And, if you do decide to make the move, regardless of where you end up, knowing a little French is helpful.
 
 
lekvar
00:37 / 28.05.04
many thanks, everybody. And for the reacord, I'll proudly eat that "worst musicians" crack. 1000 apologies.
 
 
phrankphutta
03:35 / 28.05.04
Wow, that's worth like 1700 apologies up here.
 
 
netbanshee
04:50 / 28.05.04
Not that I'm living in Canada, but I have noticed a decent electronica/industrial movement from up North by virtue of a few good artists. That in and of itself (beyond the marijuana legalization that is going around) can speak for itself, if you're a fan. Save up some money and get in on the exchange rate my boy!
 
 
Ex
07:19 / 28.05.04
From teaching at a Canadian institution in the UK:
- Terribly friendly
- Very proud that Canada tends towards the 'salad bowl' model of multiculuralism rather than the 'melting pot' idea - I'm not sure how that works on the ground.
- Terrifyingly ready to wear shorts in sub-zero temperatures
- Trained and scrupulous footnoters. I imagine that wouldn't interest most would-be-Canadians, but I'd be prepared to cross continents to find people who know what a bibliography is.
 
 
foot long subbacultcha
07:42 / 28.05.04
Toronto is a beautiful, beautiful city. It's fun to just take a walk. And there is good music coming out of Canada: New Pornographers, The Stills, Broken Social Scene, Selina Martin...
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
10:31 / 28.05.04
For whitey white bread visit canada OTHER than toronto. I didn't even notice my city had ANY black people until this year and that was when I took the last train home and discovered lots of them coming home from jobs shitier than mine. That said we have a fair selection of cultures and racial groups in my city (vancouver) and since discovering that there were black people here to I have discovered more of them. Racism here tends to be more in the form of muttering about x group can't drive. Its annoying but not that bad.

We are quite queer friendly, Toronto and Vancouver in particular having large communities. We get and sadly watch american tv here. Although we do have some of our own channels. Our Music Television, Much Music, actually plays music and is quite good.

In general Canadians tend to define themselves as "Like Americans but" and then something that we feel we are better at than you.

examples:
like americans but nice
like americans but with better beer
like americans but better looking
like americans but better educated
like americans but cleaner
like americans but with health care
like americans but less violent
and so on

It doesn't actually get cold here and we DON'T say eh thats them east coasters.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
12:27 / 28.05.04
I refuse to believe Canadians are better looking.
 
 
pomegranate
13:41 / 28.05.04
toronto is great, yes, and very cosmopolitan like new york, but nicer and cleaner. and i feel that the people are more tolerant of interracial relationships there, in toronto at least, than, for example, chicago, where i live now. when i walked down the street hand in hand with a black guy i was dating in toronto (i'm white), people didn't really seem to blink, but i feel like if we had done that in chicago, it would have caused more of...something. i don't know. not like we're gonna get rocks thrown at us or anything here, but maybe more double takes, raised eyebrows, that sort of thing.
something i really like about canada is the walk lights (for crosswalks) are very jaunty. here in the states, the figures who are walking are just walking, but in canada, it's almost like they're skanking, or something. very canadian, i think, cos i find so many canadians to be sunny.
i don't think they provide universal dental insurance in canada, and as such they get excited about working places that provide benefits, just like we do here. (well often we're more excited about the *benefits*, not the work...)
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
13:59 / 28.05.04
I live in London, Ontario - about two hours away from Toronto. Population is about 450 000.

As for multi-culturalism, we have an extremely large Arab community here. I don't have statistics for you, but Arabs and other ethnic groups seems to make up a substantial portion of this cities population.

Our health care system can be controversial; Federal Parties are always arguing about how large its budget should be. Personally, I think it's a great idea. I have no problem with paying taxes.

We have a lot of vocal right wingers, but I tend to think they are losing the battle for hearts and minds. From where I sit, Canada is very much lefty.

Americans, beware. There is an anti-Americanism here in Canada that I personally find embarassing. Americans are often mocked as ignorant, violent thugs.

That aside, I really do think this is the greatest country on Earth. So come one, come all!
 
 
grant
14:23 / 28.05.04
Cailin: Deep breath. I was about ready to take offence.

Well, I was trying to be careful with the "as a whole" thing, and, well, by using Canadian sources for that.

(I'm not going to apologize for sneering at Quebec license plates, though -- those that make it this far south ((Florida)) drive like fatigued barbarians.)

I get the distinct impression that there's a very big difference between the urban centers -- especially Toronto -- and the other 90+% of the country, demographically at least. Could be wrong, but that's the sense I get. The non-urban regions of the US bordering Canada also seem to be really whitey whitey whitebread. My first trip to Vermont kind of freaked us out.

A few of the old timers at the company I work for (including my immediate supervisor) date back to when the corporate HQ moved from Montreal to Boca Raton. They still scoff at we backward Americans, with our barbaric gun laws and our namby-pamby attitude towards baby seals. (I totally swear I'm not making that up -- it's kind of a running joke in the newsroom.)

------

I like Rush. I also like the Tragically Hip. Maybe I can get my friend Merle to send me a Sloan mix -- he's big into them.

------

[deliberate provocation]

So, Tampa beat Calgary last night, 4-1.

Heheheh.

[/deliberate provocation]
 
 
Alex's Grandma
15:14 / 28.05.04
This isn't a criticism, but don't all Canadians drink like fish ?
 
 
grant
15:35 / 28.05.04
OK, I decided, screw this "sense I get" business -- I know how to find things on the web. It's Friday.

So, census data.

The Statistics Canada website gives us a breakdown of ethnocultural data helpfully broken down further into a "visible minorities" table (but not actually turned into percentages).

The moral of that story: using a 20% representative sample, they figured...
a total population of 29,639,035,
of which 3,983,845 were from a "visible minority",
and the vast majority of those were either Chinese (1,029,395 ) or South Asian (917,075).

So, 13% of the population is a "visible minority" (although the role of Native Americans is vexed -- on this table, they're listed at the bottom as "Aboriginal self-reporting", with a population of 952,892. I'm betting there's more than that out there who just don't fill in census forms.)

Because of that, the percentage might be a couple points higher.

Anyway, the US Census site (harder to navigate, but easier to find race as an issue -- typically American) gives us this pdf on "Race and Hispanic Origin" (I think since "White/Hispanic origin" is a category on the census).

Total population: 281,421,906

White: 211,460,626 or 75.1%

Hispanic: 35,305,818 or 12.5%

Black or African-American: 34,658,190 or 12.3%

"Some other race": 15,359,073 or 5.5%

Asian: 10,242,998 or 3.6%

Two or more races: 6,826,228 or 2.4%

American Indian and Alaskan Native: 2,475,956 or .9%

Hawaiian/Pacific Islander: 398,835 or .1%

---

Now, "Hispanic" doesn't count as a race category in the US -- they say Nearly half (48 percent) of Hispanics reported only White, while approximately 42 percent
reported only Some other race, when responding to the question on race."
So cut that 12.5% in half, say, to 6.3%.

Still, it seems like percentage-wise, America's top two minority groups alone outweigh Canada's total minorities, possibly including the Aboriginal self-reporting and Aboriginal not-self-reporting.
 
 
Slim
15:49 / 28.05.04
I agree that Canadians are friendlier but to those who think Canadians are more attractive, cleaner and better educated, well...have you ever actually been to Canada? Because none of those things are true.
 
 
phrankphutta
17:23 / 28.05.04
- I've never spent a winter out East, so I can't speak for that area, but the only place I've had a winter that I'd actually consider "nice" was here on Vancouver Island. I think it snowed once here last winter. Everywhere else is too cold for this cat. Then again, I'm a firm believer that if it's colder outside than it is in my bed, I shouldn't have to get up that day.

- I've lived on both coasts, and on the prairies, and they say "Eh" everywhere. Most of the time you just don't notice it, eh?

- I forgot to mention Big Sugar and Sweatshop Union on my list of good Canadian groups...as well as my band, Stoned Wheat Thins.

- Calgary just let Tampa win. That way, they can take thier two upcoming home games and subsequently win the Cup in front of an arena full of weeping Tampa fans. Sorry to break it to you like this, but the whole plan was laid out by the Canadian government while the US was fretting over some kind of "prison abuse scandal" or something.

PS - Whatever you do, don't move to Saskatchewan. It's super cheap living, but it sucks.
 
 
sine
17:39 / 28.05.04
Nevertheless, Grant, there seems to be a different level of tolerance and violence present up here, one that many of my friends in the States find incredible when they come to visit. I grew up in whitey whitey whitebread-ville, and even there, I hung around with a tonne of different ethnic kids and nobody blinked.

A (white) friend of mine moved to Mount Vernon, NY, from Canada, and the stories she tells about essentially segregated communities and interracial violence are mind boggling to people around here. When I was going to visit her, I figured I would just hop off the train and walk up to her place. Both she and her (black) husband agreed that doing so would be tantamount to suicide. Quote "You'd get killed nine times on the way here for being white." I have no idea whether this is an exaggeration, but since he grew up and still lives in the area, I have to assume he knows the difference.

This in contrast to her old neighborhood, where she, a 110 pound girl, used to walk home, drunk, with her Diskman blasting, by herself, at three in the morning, through half a dozen different ethnically concentrated communities and never think twice about it.

God only knows where the 'seal clubbing' bias came from. I don't know anybody who would be okay with that, hunters included. I certainly don't know anybody that characterizes Americans as "Namby-pamby".

A few things that need to be addressed for the prospective immigrant to the Great White North:

Our official system of measurement is Metric. In practise, we tend to measure many things using Imperial, such as our height in feet and out weight in pounds.

Some of our words will seem to contain too many vowels, but I assure you, this is how we spell them. Example: "Colour" not "color".

We pronouce the final letter of the alphabet "zed" not "zee".

"Liberal" is not a dirty word bandied around in an accusatory fashion here...its our dominant political party.

In the beer & cigarettes vein, yes, both are more expensive. However, importantly, our beer is both stronger and better than yours, while our cigarettes and weaker and poorer.

Our healthcare (in Ontario) just became less than free; you'll still think its cheap.

Essentially, Canada is exactly what all of the geographically oriented redneck-shitkicker Republicans believe it is: the world's second largest country, ruled entirely by queer pot-smoking Pinkos.

And yes, Canada did once burn down the White House in an act of revenge.

Sorry.
 
 
grant
18:00 / 28.05.04
- Calgary just let Tampa win. That way, they can take thier two upcoming home games and subsequently win the Cup in front of an arena full of weeping Tampa fans.

Scared the Cup's going to melt if the temperature breaks 50 degrees? (That's Fahrenheit, not retrograde.)

Nevertheless, Grant, there seems to be a different level of tolerance and violence present up here

Oh, yeah. I don't think any sane person can argue that.

I have a *suspicion* that the size of a minority group (as well as their cultural history) will affect violence across ethnic lines in any culture, but I'm not positive, and whatever the reason, Canada's fer shure in the safe zone.

God only knows where the 'seal clubbing' bias came from. I don't know anybody who would be okay with that, hunters included. I certainly don't know anybody that characterizes Americans as "Namby-pamby".

Ah. Well, the anybodys you don't know? They're tabloid editors. Probably a rare breed. And probably for good reason.

I do think there's something interesting about violence in Canadian culture vs. American culture -- our violence tends to be far more widespread, but transgressive, while, well, the NHL is the only pro sports league I know of that factors in time for fights during matches.

(It's sooo tempting for me to play redneck here and say, without this parenthetical prelude, "What is it with you people and sticks? Just gotta hit things with 'em, huh?" But I'm afraid, given my prior comments, people wouldn't know I was joking.)
 
 
grant
18:10 / 28.05.04
(And might hit me with sticks.)
 
 
passer
19:53 / 28.05.04
I'm most familiar with Edmonton, AB. It does not feel very diverse, although there are visible minorities. It reminds me a little of Kansas. Yeah, there are non-white people there, but the noticeable and obvious majority of people are white.

That being said, people are generally friendlier than most places in the states. This does not hold true if you compare it to say the South in the US, where most people will say hello and be friendly.

As for tolerance, I've been given looks in both the US and Canada. However, the fact that I'm less likely to be shot in Canada makes it much more comfortable.

And slim, to repeat myself: I have been to Canada and I do think that people are generally more attractive. I think this has a lot to do with the universal healthcare people keep talking about. It's amazing how much nicer healthy people look.
 
 
pomegranate
19:55 / 28.05.04
i just learned that they don't have TiVo in canada. this may or may not influence anyone's decision to move there.
 
 
lekvar
20:12 / 28.05.04
the world's second largest country, ruled entirely by queer pot-smoking Pinkos.

I am so there.
 
 
statisticalpurposes
07:03 / 29.05.04
You can't get beer at a corner store here.
...unless you go to a dep in Quebec.

And another thing from Quebec: the excellent film The Barbarian Invasions, which is incidently a good demonstration that our health care system still has a long way to go.
 
 
Nobody's girl
15:18 / 29.05.04
Threadrot

I'm a firm believer that if it's colder outside than it is in my bed, I shouldn't have to get up that day.

Ahh sloth, my favourite sin

We should start a pressure group to get that put into law.
 
 
pomegranate
15:32 / 29.05.04
yeah, something i don't like about canada is that you have to go to special stores to get alcohol, and they close at 9pm. 9pm! that sucks, a lot. also don't forget about their crazy anti-smoking warnings on their weird-shaped cigarette packs, replete w/pics of diseased lungs, oh my! oh yeah the drinking age is 19, too. growing up outside detroit as i did, windsor was only about 45 minutes away. all the kids would go there to drink. yee-haw, good times.
 
 
juan de marcos
15:41 / 29.05.04
Some of my favorite bands are Canadian: NoMeansNo, Godspeed You Black Emperor!, Silver Mt. Zion, Neil Young...

From where I am standing (Belgium) Canada is a bit like Europe but not so crowded.
Belgian beer is the best beer in the world, by the way.
 
 
phrankphutta
16:28 / 29.05.04
you have to go to special stores to get alcohol, and they close at 9pm. 9pm! that sucks, a lot.

This is because Liquor sales are regulated and controlled by the government. There is talk of privatization every time some politician wants to appeal to the average beer-drinker, but noting concrete. Actually, it differs from province to province. On the prairies, you can get "Off Sale" beer 'till 2am from any open pub, on any night of the week, and some provinces even allow pubs to sell bottles of hard alcohol. Nothing like spending a night drinking at the pub, and picking up a 40oz of Crown Royal for the walk home!

In all seriousness, all of this just boils down to the fact that you have to do the tiniest bit of planning if you want to get shitfaced somewhere other than the pub.

also don't forget about their crazy anti-smoking warnings on their weird-shaped cigarette packs, replete w/pics of diseased lungs, oh my!

This is true. There are some pretty nasty pictures on our cigarette packs...diseased lungs, blackened hearts, bleeding brain tumors, even one with the most unclean and disease-ridden mouth I have ever laid eyes on. Fact is, two weeks after they introduced them, people stopped noticing/caring.

oh yeah the drinking age is 19, too. growing up outside detroit as i did, windsor was only about 45 minutes away. all the kids would go there to drink. yee-haw, good times.

Again, this differs from province to province. It's 18 in Alberta. I'm pretty sure 19 is the highest legal drinking age in the country.

Nobodys Girl - Okay, but I also think we should include a proposal for a Mandatory Simultaneous Global Mushroom Trip as well. Everyone over 16. It'd change the world in just one day.
 
 
phrankphutta
16:32 / 29.05.04
PS - This is my favorite cigarette warning label. Collect 'em all!!!

 
 
fluid_state
17:02 / 29.05.04
yeah, I'll get a bottle of coke, a pack of gum, and a pack of LimpDicks, please. cheers.
 
  

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