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Unintentional threadrot, non-malicious trolling, and how to deal with it in the Revolution?

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
15:24 / 24.05.04
As we know, one of the many wonders of Barbelith is its openness, versatility and democracy. However.

We've had a few problems in a Head Shop thread with Lord Morgue posting lengthy, offtopic and misogynistic lyrics (in, ho ho, a thread about whether it is supportable to enjoy sexist culture). He has been asked to engage with the topic instead of posting lyrics. And, to his credit, he has , I think, attempted to do so, responding with a disquisition to lay out his intellectual bonafides and a bit of autobiography on his father - here.

Now, I *think* this is a sincere atempt to address the topic and the thread, after a fashion, but it isn't really paying much attention to it. We've got a similar issue to the one we had in the bisexuality thread with VJBJ (See current Barb-apologies thread). See also the trip down memory lane here, where we get a sentence or two addressing the actual issue, and then away.

Now, LM is a bit of a special case as he has already described himself as a troll, and this is actually a step up, but it's a handy example of something I am finding awkward in moderating the Head Shop. At present many of the contributions to threads are not really engaging with the questions being asked in the topic, and there is a danger that they are pushing down the general level of discussion within threads. But what is the right thing to do? Try to steer the discussion back on course by picking out whatever nuggets of relevance might be contained in the previous post? Ignore it completely and hope others do the same? Boot the whole thread into the Conversation? PM individuals with a link to the wiki? Move posts for deletion? Any thoughts, kittens?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:50 / 24.05.04
I see your problem. I think the example you link to is just rubbish and should technically speaking be deleted, but I suspect that Lord Morgue is waiting for someone to do so, so he can start a Rage-like hysterical thread about being silenced. His post in the apologies thread is similarly nothing of the sort really. I feel that this would be solved if we could have yellow cards to show to posters that we suspect are tacking the piss. I don't think this is anything but someone pissing about. But while it's definitely not a banning offense, yet, it's also enough that it could cause disruption.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:55 / 24.05.04
Well, that's kind of the tricky thing. Lord Morgue is contributing *more* to the thread, here - I'm not exactly in love with it, but it's progress, but I'm not sure how to get more engagement with the thread from him, or from others. I mean, reading the wiki should help, but it seems that doesn't happen so much, but at the same time I don't want to come across as a schoolteacher or a bully, because I'm sure that people have a lot to add to the revolution if they just focused a bit...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:37 / 24.05.04
I haven't been around for nearly long enough to contribute to The Policy, I feel, so when I say this is my 2 cents worth, it's literally that. But for whatever it's worth, when people behave badly, I do tend to find it highly amusing. Assuming I'm not alone, and that nobody's genuinely hurt or offended, I think a lot of the time you can let this stuff go. Lord Morgue is perhaps a fool, I don't know, though I'll be checking his posts out the minute I've finished writing this, and no doubt quietly laughing into my sleeve, but as long as nobody goes too over the top, I think, then it's probably not worth worrying about. As I say, my 2 cents.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:04 / 24.05.04
I think you're missing the point, Alex. I don't think anyone here is worried about being hurt or offended. I for one am concerned only with keeping the level of discussion in the Revolution at the level suggested by precedent and the wiki.

I'm not hurt or offended at all by people shouting "bum". But if I want to be amused by it, I have next door's children and the rest of the Internet to enjoy, as do you. The question here is whether and how we should be trying to prevent the Revolution occupying the same territory as the Conversation, at which point it becomes redundant.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:08 / 24.05.04
Haus. Yeah, fair enough, if somebody's quite clearly fooling around in the Head Shop, wherever, without being deliberately awful, then they should probably be sent to the conversation. But then again, I suppose it's a bit tricky if it's someone else's thread. I don't know what I'd do, personally. Just hope that if everyone ignores them they'll go away ? Certainly, when I've posted utter bollocks after x lagers in parts of Barbelith I'm not really qualified to talk about in that kind of state ( or arguably any other, ) that's been my experience. As I say, I think there's a danger that everyone worries too much. So I'd probably argue in favour of the board being self-correcting, and that basket-weaving hippy though I almost certainly am, these things will reach their natural end, very quickly.

Insofar as the alternative is going to get a bit complicated, to the extent that it's not really not worth going into.

That would make this my 4 cents by now.
 
 
w1rebaby
23:17 / 24.05.04
It's kind of hard to form an opinion on this issue since LM's previous posts have been deleted. The response that is left certainly looks pretty rambling and irrelevant, but maybe s/he's trying to find his or her feet, or has an odd sense of humour. I don't know.

Benefit of the doubt and explanation unless it becomes an actual disruptive threat, I would have said, like any other case.

In what context did LM say they were a troll?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:42 / 25.05.04
here, and also in in this thread, where, having been asked not to post lyrics and nothing else twice, LM said "of course I am trolling, but I will not post (name of one particular song), because even Doom knows mercy", or similar.

However, I don't think this is particularly important. Again, fridge, I don't think you've got the point, which is not about scrutinising the behaviour of one person (LM, as I say, no doubt comes from a different board culture in which this non-malicious "trolling", that is seeking attention through non sequiturs and attention-getting outbursts, is considered universally acceptable and appropriate, as it would be in the Conversation, but is adapting, and good for him). I'm not concerned about people's morality, but about the quality of threads in the Revolution, and people degrading them not out of malice but out of a failure to understand how the Revolution is meant to function. This thread might be another example. This is a question about a particular way of posting, not a particular person.

Alex: As you've identified yourself, moving to the Conversation only works if the person has started the thread, or if you're ready to give up on the thread. That's the question I'm trying to address - how you keep threads on topic and operating at for want of a better term I'll call the "Revolution level" without causing offence.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:49 / 25.05.04
these things will reach their natural end, very quickly.

Oh, I think we're getting very near to the "natural end" of the Head Shop. Concepts which were once entry level now seem to need explaining on a weekly basis (why are those crazy black people allowed to call each other things they won't let us poor disenfranchised white people say?). Isn't entropy a wonderful thing?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:52 / 25.05.04
As for Lord Morgue: he used the word "feminazi". Seeing as we don't live in my own private Barbelith and so aren't already treading down the topsoil on his (metaphorical, toksik) grave, is this the kind of thing the ignore button was created for?
 
 
Lord Morgue
10:33 / 25.05.04
I'm saying my FATHER was a feminazi, you boob! Wake up, McFlyboy!
And being at least part Mizoku, I am always glad to contribute to such chaos and misery.
Hail Eris! All hail Discordia! Tiddly pom.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:30 / 25.05.04
Hmmm. I'm not seeing much in the way of chaos or misery. Bit of mild annoyance, maybe, but not from here. Here is nothing but love. Anyway, Morgue - good to see you engaging with the topic more, and welcome aboard. Tell us - was there anything in particular that inspired you? Was it the deletions? Or did you just have a look over the thread and find yourself more interested in contributing to it?
 
 
Lord Morgue
13:18 / 25.05.04
Eh, just a smidgen embarrassed at coming off like such a boob.
Really, I'm just a burnt cookie- tough and crusty on the outside, but all soft and gooshy in the middle.
 
 
Cat Chant
14:30 / 25.05.04
(Firstly, Flyboy and LM, if you are going to have a fight about the use of the word "feminazi", please, please take it out of this thread, because I can just tell it's going to get lengthy. [Hmm. Clearly, unlike Haus, I have no objection to sounding either bossy or like a schoolteacher.])

I think this:

Concepts which were once entry level now seem to need explaining on a weekly basis

is key. I stand by my knuckle-rapping of Fly, and I really enjoyed the subsequent devastatingly articulate and clever posts by him and Bengali, but I feel like there's a problem with new people coming in one by one, who might genuinely not know why something is an "entry-level" concept (I've been reminded by recent events here of the learned anti-Semitism of my younger self ewwwww), versus the older posters who are sick to death of rehearsing the same old things over and over again and thus respond as if it was the same poster coming back and back to have the same argument ("Why do you make me go through this again? Didn't you learn anything from the Barbewars of '99?" "Er, no. I just got here, and I was ten in 1999"). The barbe-lexicon thread is a useful resource for this, I think, but I wonder whether it might be useful to have a "beginner's guide" archive somewhere - in the wiki? - which could just be linked directly to in these cases? Haus's strategy of linking to threads is the kind of thing I'm thinking of, but given that half the people who participated in the Whiteness thread admitted they couldn't be bothered to read all of it (yes, I'm still fucked off by that) I'm not sure how useful/hospitable it is.

The advantage of using the wiki or a locked thread as this "permanent archive" of "entry-level concepts" would be simply for ease of reference - to avoid the thing turning into an intimidating, sprawling, ten-page thread. I'm aware, on the other hand, that the idea of a permanent archive might suggest that there's a consensus of opinion on the 'lith about these issues (concocted by the inner circle, no doubt*) and anyone who dares to disagree will be slapped down/torn to shreds/etc. But I do think that the "political correctness run maaad" debate and the "You're oppressing my right as a white boy to dispose of all language as if it were in my sovereign gift, nigga!" argument, for example, could be summed up usefully and then linked to on a weekly basis, which would save the older posters from frustration and prolonged argumentation. Would it be possible to do that in a way that wasn't, like, This Is The Word Of The Lith but was more like you can argue against this, but you have to show you've actually engaged with these 'entry-level' concepts before we will take your arguments seriously?

*This does not imply that the inner circle is comprised of members of the band No Doubt. Though that would be kewl.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:59 / 25.05.04
Agree with pretty much all of that. I actually no longer stand by my pessimistic earlier comment about entropy - foolish me for losing hope and thinking Barbelith was dying. But we do seem to have a problem whereby a thread can have gone on for several pages about a specific issue of which strand of feminist thought presents the best strategic approach to issue x, and then somebody signs up and says "well if you ask me, feminism is nonsense because women should be equal, not superior!", and then we all groan and throw up our hands etc...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:11 / 25.05.04
Slightly off the point I know, but can I just say that I've enjoyed the fact that I've found interesting discussions for the first time in aaaages in the Head Shop in the last month or so since Tom gave the board it's new look?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:54 / 25.05.04
Deva, I could kiss you, you have compounded everything I would like to have said and couldn't construct (after a day surrounded by 'A' level students who didn't understand the word financed).
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:25 / 25.05.04
But we do seem to have a problem whereby a thread can have gone on for several pages about a specific issue of which strand of feminist thought presents the best strategic approach to issue x, and then somebody signs up and says "well if you ask me, feminism is nonsense because women should be equal, not superior!", and then we all groan and throw up our hands etc...

Yes indeed. I don't think there's ever a way to totally eradicate that happening... it seems to me to be an unfortunate by-product of the way this medium works. Although we can try to alleviate it...

There ain't no perfect world. Not even on Barbelith.
 
 
Bed Head
17:29 / 25.05.04
Ignore me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t a crucial part of Tom’s plans for New Barbelith a scheme by which a newcomer’s first x amount of posts on the board were, um, submitted for general approval? Maybe one of the ways of maintaining forevermore the good basic standard in the Revolution forums (and I’ll say again, although I don’t much participate in the Revolution, I read them. All of them. And as a reader, I do appreciate the hard work that goes into keeping a thread focussed.) would be to ask Tom about the possibility of adapting that mechanism slightly, so however long someone blathers away in a lateshift or about comics or whatever, it would remain necessary for their first 40 (say) Headshop posts to be approved by A.N. Nonspecific-Other. If something’s slightly ontopic but swathed in rot, a request for the poster to trim away the excess *before* their point goes into the thread would keep everyone happy, cut out any repetition/naked boneheadedness before it ruins everything, and maintain a reasonably high bar for an entry level in a polite and above all helpful manner.

Of course, like I say, I might have got that all wrong. I mean, I might have dreamt that bit about Tom’s grand plans. It’s happened before.
 
 
Lord Morgue
09:02 / 26.05.04
Isn't the onus on the poster to search for the topic in the archives before starting a new thread? Maybe a search that can go by post content as well as by title and abstract would be a better tool for this...
Any point to starting a thread on Frequently Addressed Topics, with links, for Teh Noobs? It'd take a Barbehistorian better credentialed than I.
And is it better to Necromance a thread from the Barbesea than to start a fresh one, if you have a new observation or feel something deserves reiteration?
 
 
Lord Morgue
09:12 / 26.05.04
And as far as Noobwatching goes, the Madness Of King Morgue aside, we do that on my board, but I don't think things here are quite THAT bad yet. Now me, I come from a board wreathed in flame and hip-deep in spam. We're talking organised trolling from another community, day after day, year after year, trying to get us to shut down. An organised hate campaign that has at times risen to the level of hacking and physical attacks on board members. Talk to me about your problems when things get that bad around here. For me, this board is like fucking heaven- like our board used to be, before the insanity started...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:34 / 26.05.04
Now that Barbelith is googlable, the best thing to do is to skip the internal search and do a google search on (topic) and add "Barbelith"...

And is it better to Necromance a thread from the Barbesea than to start a fresh one, if you have a new observation or feel something deserves reiteration?

Good question - I tend to favour keeping the discussion grouped, but if you want a fresh start (i.e. one where people are not expected to read the previous thread) it may be best to start another one, with a link for reference.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:02 / 06.06.04
So here we are again: not necessarily entirely without merit as a post, not really obnoxious or entirely stupid, but not really engaging with the thread in which it's been posted. Should it be deleted?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:06 / 06.06.04
Well, I'd probably say that it could be left as long as everyone could be relied upon quietly to ignore it. If there's a danger that it will lead to threadrot, I'd move to delete it. In this case, yes - I'd probably move to delete, because it contains a number of statements that are both arguable and utterly irrelevant to the topic. Again, it seems somebody has read the title of the thread but nothing else...

On the other hand, it could form the basis of a perfectly good post at the start of a thread on the consideration of the left/right and totalitarian/libertarian axes. We've had one on the political compass website before - in fact, a couple, I think, but we could stand to have another one, either in the Head Shop or the Switchboard...

So, possibly move to delete it, but PM the contents back to the poster suggesting another use for it?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:44 / 06.06.04
I don't actually see much wrong with it, it's a bit long and rambling but at least it's germaine to the thread topic. And it's not as if people before haven't responded to either the title or a much earlier post rather than where the current conversation is at.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:48 / 06.06.04
it's germaine to the thread topic.

Really? How?
 
 
Lord Morgue
10:45 / 07.06.04
Oh, whip me, spank me, 'cause I'm insensitive (snort).
If you people don't cheer up, I shall SING at you!
Really, this is as on-topic as I get. I talk in real life like this.
Flyboy, I promised to keep my feet out of your bottom if you stopped trying to bury me, but my pseudo-apology was deleted.
Alright, you can bury me a little bit. Smooth talker.
 
 
Cat Chant
11:32 / 07.06.04
Pretty much agree with Haus about moving the post to its own thread. Tom - I know this would be pretty low down on the list of priorities, but how hard would it be to give moderators the power to move individual posts? At the moment all we can do is PM the poster the contents of a deleted post and suggest reposting it in a more appropriate thread, or cut'n'paste into the new thread, which means the post is marked as being the moderator's rather the author's.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:15 / 07.06.04
Oh-K. I think Lord Morgue is basically asking us to be his conscience; he's said that he is constitutionally unable to be sure that his posts to the Head Shop are ontopic, but he's clearly getting something out of being there, so although it's a bit more work for the mods, we should be able to handle it...
 
 
Lord Morgue
13:24 / 07.06.04
? I made sense? I didn't think I made sense? Oh well, I'm your bitch, Haus. Treat me BAAAD! Wheee!
I'm glad somebody around here speaks Morguelish- I am often in need of a translator, and I only know three.
 
 
Lord Morgue
08:17 / 08.06.04
Actually, Flyboy, are you sure you're not that little kid I went to school with, who'd sneak up behind big kids, punch them in the back of the head and run away, and then shriek and cry blue murder when you caught him and stuffed him in a garbage bin, and then he'd get out and do it all again? 'Cause you got that passive-aggressive thing goin' on, baby, and my feet are cold.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:26 / 08.06.04
OK - Lord Morgue, this discussion is not about trying to pick fights. Talking about yourself is fun, talking about yourself and how fighty fighty you are about other people is also fun, and there is a whole big Conversation to do it in. I'm going to start moving threadrotting posts here for deletion. There's a lot of precedent on how to contribute to discussions on Barbelith - I'd suggest a riffle through some of our old topics.
 
 
Lord Morgue
08:36 / 08.06.04
Flyboy just irks me, is all. He follows me around, pissing on me, and I can't hit him. Can't flame him, either, without looking like a troll, cause he rarely stays in the same thread to bitch about me, and if I bomb in with my usual attitude I come off like, well, ME. And that's never good. So could you kill him for me? Pleeeease? No, that would be bad. OOH! I am sorely vexed by this boyfly.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:14 / 08.06.04
If you want to have a fight, do it in the Conversation. Start a Barbe-feuds thread. FLyboy can then decide whether he wants to reply to you or not without the other moderators having to deal with the threadrot.
 
 
Lord Morgue
10:11 / 08.06.04
RAHHH! I am unleashed! By the authoritah of Haus, ah am empowered to Barbe-que the un-roadworthy! Fear me or die!


...meh, or maybe I'll just keep making snide comments. It's too much like trying to kickbox a mass of wet toilet paper...
 
  

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