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The OC is here to make us feel good about being poor

 
  

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No star here laces
14:03 / 19.05.04
I mean, some of us more than others, obviously.

But it's shocking there isn't a thread on it already.

I was trying to explain the appeal to a friend who has never watched it and the closest I could get was to say that it's kind of like if Dallasty was about how great it is to be rich, the OC is about how awful it is to be rich. Or something.

But, much as I love it, and the writing is amazing, isn't there something a little bit sinister about the way the whole thing seems designed to let you enjoy this opulent lifestyle vicariously, but disapprovingly, and ultimately feel better about the fact that it isn't you?

Thoughts, or general chit-chat...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:14 / 19.05.04
So if Eastenders is evil because it's about people less well off than 'us', and The OC is 'evil' because it's about people richer than 'us', does that mean that the only ethical telly would be a show about people in exactly the same situation as 'us'? Fuck that.

Anyway, there's a thread here but be warned, it contains a few vague SPOILERS for UK viewers.

Personally, I think The OC is here to make me feel good about being alive, especially since there's only 3 episodes of Angel left and who knows when I'll get to see the new Sopranos or Six Feet Under.

The last couple of episodes in particular have been superb. Evil, Evil Jim from Neighbours!
 
 
No star here laces
00:04 / 20.05.04
I don't really think it's evil, but y'know, is it enough just to say "lets talk about this show I like?"

Anyway, yeah, the other thread.
 
 
Char Aina
05:31 / 20.05.04
maybe all jefe meant was he likes his pornographic and explotative television to feature rich people.

y'know, a taste thing.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:52 / 20.05.04
I'm not entirely sure I see the difference, conceptually, between this and Dynasty; the characters involved are rich and (within the terms of the debate) beautiful, and they have terribly complex lives.

However awful the lives of these rich kids seems to be, though - overdoses, divorcing parents, Jimmy's hairstyle - it seems to me that it seems quite firmly to say that, however much being rich might suck, *not* being rich sucks enormously more. Whenever Ryan goes back to Chino, or Chino comes to Ryan, aalling things happen - his drunk mum, his white trash friend with the gun he meets at the Peach Pit, his jailbird brother making him boost cars - and he then returns to the safety of a wealthy family and the love of Joey Potter. So, no... I don't think the messages of The O.C. are at all unusual, or as Jefe sees them. It is marked out by just how fabulous it is, however. Was I the only person bellowing in frustration at Seth last week?
 
 
_pin
08:44 / 20.05.04
I like Seth. Lay off Seth. Seth and Anna are my new Willow and Oz (if Xander had shuned Willow all her life and then suddenly liked her).
 
 
No star here laces
08:47 / 20.05.04
Was last week the cotillion episode? Cos I was yelling at seth in that one. Have it all in DivX format so am not bound by TV schedules...

I dunno - I do see it as very different from Dynasty et al because:

1) You're meant to identify with and like Ryan more than the other characters because he's not rich

2) The way the characters talk is overtly critical of their milieu

But I agree in that the appeal is based on great characters and big universal themes.

Does anybody know much about this McG character who produces it? All I know is he also directed "Charlies Angels: Full Throttle" and is chubby and ginger...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:57 / 20.05.04
1) You're meant to identify with and like Ryan more than the other characters because he's not rich

Hoom. Certainly Ryan is the source of much of the conflict and drama, because he is the outsider, but his milieu - single mother, dad disappeared, brother in jail - is as alien to a lot of the viewership as the world of the other characters. Just as Brandon and Brenda created drama and tension by...um... coming from Minnesota. But are we supposed to identify with and like Ryan? I'd say that Seth, who was clearly created as wisecracking sidekick for the pilot, is stepping up to the plate bigstyle as an equal focus both of the narrative and also of the viewers' affection. *I* certainly like him lots, but then perhaps that is because his experience of the world is a lot closer to mine than Ryan's... nonetheless, the O.C. is increasingly striking me as a Trojan Horse, where a shiny tale of hyperrich teens is sneakily introducing a genuinely engaging drama of lovely people. Who would be nice to voles.

Oh, and on bellowing at Seth - it was the Thanksgiving episode. Bellowing a) to stop with the Brian Rix farce stuff and b) to get with Anna, who is clearly massively cooler and prettier than Summer. See the emotional engagement!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:00 / 20.05.04
Anna is awesome and Summmer isn't, but you have to remember how old Seth is (supposed to be). Inexplicable crushes that go on for years despite the object of your affections being completely inappropriate for you - it's not uncommon. The odd thing is that in episodes like the one where they bust Marissa out of the hospital, Summer seemed to be revealing a little more character (she likes Madame Bovary, etc), but now Anna's back she's either reverted to type or just comes off badly in comparison.

Anyway, it's hard to stay mad at Seth when he just keeps on with the quippage. Apparently Adam Brody adlibs a lot, y'know. Like the last line here:

Caleb: "Built like a pipe cleaner, but still looking sharp. And who's this little firecracker?"
Anna: "Seth said you were scary, but I see an inner sweetness."
Caleb: "I like your moxie."
Seth: "And suddenly, we're in a film noir."


Plus finally someone has said to Peter Coyote the magic words: "Those eyebrows are outta control!"
 
 
_Boboss
10:42 / 20.05.04
finally it's said

tweezer-dude on this show desperately needs to be sacked, haven't seen so many haphazardly shaped eyebrows on my screen since harry's family appear at the end of bigfoot and the hendersons.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
11:01 / 20.05.04
I think that if you don't think this is the new Dawsuns Creek, you're kidding yourself.

*runs*

I have the same sort of guilt/enjoyment factor from both of those shows, though. Guilt: because the OC really isn't of any great quality, save for Seth - who is way way way more interesting and entertaining than that Ryan fellow.

*Brood*
Punch someone every episode
*Brood*
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
13:32 / 20.05.04
only just caught up with this, and am very much enjoying Evil Jim.

The 'oops! farce!' thing got really rather annoying after a while (last sunday's ep) but like Gambit I was transfixed by the amount of monobrow/tuft action going on.....
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
13:39 / 20.05.04
I forgot to mention Evil Jim - which really is all good.

Did he look that evil in Neighbours? I mean, he was wussy Jim back then!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:45 / 20.05.04
He had a stint of being even more EVIL in 24 before this, but I'd stopped watching it by that point so don't know how that ended. Presumably Jack Bauer deaded him. Gave him a couple of metal tablets to make his head go SPLATTT.

Which brings me to the thing I really like about The OC - that unlike almost every single other TV show I enjoy, it doesn't as yet feature deeply fucked-up people suffering horribly and being morally grey. I mean, a little of that happens every now and again, but mostly sunshine is restored. And even Evil Jim can be nice when eating takeout at Thanksgiving.
 
 
gridley
19:39 / 20.05.04
I think that if you don't think this is the new Dawsuns Creek, you're kidding yourself.

You are sooooooo wrong!

The OC is the new Beverly Hills 90210.

One Tree Hill is the new Dawson's Creek.

I mean seriously...
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
20:20 / 20.05.04
Ah, you're right. I was thinking purely in quality scales, rather than content.
 
 
pomegranate
13:26 / 22.05.04
i really hate it when people refer to the O.C. as a good show. enjoyable? yes. well done for what it is? yes. but it isn't *good*, IMHO. now everwood, that's a *good* show. extremely compelling, with terrific acting (for the most part). most of the acting on the O.C. is so crappy, and when the performances seem real, you get the distinct impression that it's cos the actors are very much like their characters in real life. (seth, his dad, anna all come to mind.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:56 / 22.05.04
Well, no, *you* get the distinct impression... because it's easier to believe that than that they might actually be acting, no?

I think there's a subsidiary question about what makes a *good* TV show here...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:38 / 23.05.04
One about pain. Pain in the rain.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:22 / 23.05.04
And dude, you got it. Ryan, Luke and that girl who is keeping them apart drinking beer in the deserted stadium while discussing Luke's absentee father and his... little problem. If it wasn't raining *on* them, it was sure as shooitng raining *in* them...
 
 
_pin
08:29 / 24.05.04
So I missed last week's episode: did it feature a wardrobe, the magical land of Selfawareia, some magical poor kids that tought Luke how to love and a great big Know Your Limits lion that whacked the shit upside his head every time he went to talk, until he learnt that money is not everything, but how much inner pain and sadness having it causes you when you see African people?

Because even pre-Dad, he was, you know, being nice to Ryan.

Also, Seth. Just... mmm. Lovely Seth.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:59 / 24.05.04
I'm not quite sure why Luke was being nice to Ryan at the start of this episode either - unless I'm forgetting something, the last time we saw him was just after Ryan had apologised for getting roughhouse in soccer training, and just before Ryan & Marissa went on the Ferris wheel... Basically it seems like Luke has been okay-ish with Ryan ever since he helped get him shot in the arm. Yeah, I know.

A much simpler explanation is that all of Luke's many changing moods where Ryan is concerned are a result of the fact that he is crazy in love with the boy from Chino.

I did like Ryan's face on seeing that Luke's dad's partner was actually his, y'know, partner: "Why am I always, ALWAYS around when this kind of thing happens? It's bound to end in me having to punch someone."
 
 
No star here laces
09:07 / 24.05.04
I'm only up to the Ferris Wheel episode, but can I just say how K-LAME it is that Anna likes Seth as a special person and not just a friend.

Damn symmetry in story-telling is irritating.

Anyway the best thing is the Sandy-Rachel-Kirsten-Caleb storyline.

Kirsten is my top OC crush. She is super hot.
 
 
No star here laces
09:10 / 24.05.04
Luke is being nice because between the being shot and the getting found out in Mexico he is becoming A Good Person due to traumas which cause him to Question The Way He Lives His Life. Whether or not he gets the girl back. You guys need to stop thinking about slash so much - not everything in life is about thwarted homosexual relationships...
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:29 / 24.05.04
Gnnmmph.

Gggrrrrrrrarrggh.

1. The OC is the new Dawson's Creek.

Which was the new Beverly Hills 90210.

These are both True Things, and There Is No Getting Away From Them. None.

None of the above shows, or The OC, or Dallas/Dynasty/The Colbys etc are about Rich People. When did you ever see a character in a US TV show EVER mention money unless it was a), part of the plot of that episode or arc, or b) their character's primary motivation? Never. Money is not an object in these shows, it's just occasionally an objective.

These shows are about attractive people falling deeply in love with one another. Often by hitting one another, making one another cry, kissing/having sex with someone else, or hugging them while smiling over their shoulder in an enigmatically evil way which implies that they're lying to us, dammit!

2. It has almost uniformly average production values. It has virtually no impetus as far as plot's concerned (almost nothing happens, every episode, but because the characters seem to be convinced something's happened, and to be really bummed out by it, you're actually suckered into thinking so too - see the other two shows in point one, above). It has vague, inconsistent characterisation for every character except Ryan and Seth. It's vapid.

3. NEITHER of the above two points stop it from being one of the most fun shows to watch on TV right now. One might argue that the above two points significantly contribute to it being one of the most fun shows to watch on TV right now.

But please don't invent ways in which it is quality television, folks, because, Sethdude's Xanderisms aside, it's just cheesecake primetime soap... with an Evil Jim! I love Evil Jim. I want to marry his tall, craggy Evil self. Is his character supposed to be South African? He was when he was in ER, and his accent sounds exactly the same...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:47 / 24.05.04
I think it's completely mad to think that The OC isn't about the fact that they're all rich - that's the whole basis of Ryan's initial outsider-dom, and we're always being reminded that neither did Sandy or Evil Mother of Marissa once upon a time, and now Jimmy's going to lose all his money too... How can you possibly argue that it's not a major concern when it's mentioned so explicitly all the time, you know, in the words the characters say when they're talking about the events that are taking place?

And we're back to "fun" v. "quality"... Gah. Who cares? Is it yet another manifestation of grim puritanism that makes people think "it's about pretty Californians... it can't actually be GOOD, even though I derive large quantities of pleasure and enjoyment from it, I cannot say it is QUALITAY..."?
 
 
_pin
13:27 / 24.05.04
To be fair, even where it's not explicetly about money and they don't use the word like pomos and 'paradigm,' surely pretty much everyone in all the shows this is benig compared to, and this show too, get to do all the stuff they do (mostly not doing stuff and thinking it's really important) BECAUSE THEY HAVE A SHIT LOAD OF MONEY. TV about poor people finishing work and barely having enough money to bum out in front of cable with a because-we-have-no-time-to-cook readymeal would suck shit anyway.

Oh, and I had no idea there was Luke Shooting. I feel incomplete that I haven't seen Luke Shooting.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:47 / 24.05.04
I dunno... being told that the OC has "uniformly average production values" makes me feel rather as I do when, in the "Troy" thread, I am told that I should stop carping and admire the art of the 3D programmers and the one moment of quality cinematography. It's valid, but it's not something I feel *necessarily* defines whether something is "quality" or not. The Seventh Seal had shitty production values - it wasn't even in colour. It's still *good*, though.

As for Beverley Hills 90210 - yep, valid comparison. At the moment it's reminding me of that, of "Saved by the Bell", but also of first and second series Buffy without the monster stuff. I agree with Jefe, though - Seth and the parents, in particular the Cohens, are far more interesting than the beautiful kids...
 
 
gridley
17:12 / 24.05.04
At the moment it's reminding me of that, of "Saved by the Bell"

Care to explain that more? I can't say that I've seen many episodes of Saved By the Bell (thank god), but that comparison seems pretty off target to me (y'know beyond them being americans in high school).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:02 / 24.05.04
Oh, come *on*. Seth is Screech. He is amusing and excluded and has funny hair. He will be the focal point of the series and its most memorable character, and will NEVER WORK AGAIN. Luke is Zack - the Golden boy who very occasionally has to wrestle with some *issues*. Ryan is the one who doesn't quite fit in with the white, blond milieu of his high school - the wrestler dude. At some point they will form a band. At some other point they will have a glass of beer and drive a car through their dad's window. In fact, they practically have already. Marissa is the chick from showgirls. 100% fact.

Accept the facts, dude.
 
 
The Strobe
22:01 / 24.05.04
At some point they will form a band.

Yes, but will it be called Zack Attack? Will it? And will Adam Brody wear women's clothes?

I think not. Jefelaces is right. Leave the slash alone, it's wonderful as it is, even if I'm having a harder time than I did during Dawson's Creek to remember that THEY ARE SEVENTEEN. Honeset.

(Also, I still remember Mischa Barton from Lawn Dogs, playing opposite Sam Rockwell when she was like, nine. Man. How she's grown up. Rockwell, by contrast, hasn't really changed much).
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:56 / 25.05.04
I think it's completely mad to think that The OC isn't about the fact that they're all rich - that's the whole basis of Ryan's initial outsider-dom, and we're always being reminded that neither did Sandy or Evil Mother of Marissa once upon a time, and now Jimmy's going to lose all his money too... How can you possibly argue that it's not a major concern when it's mentioned so explicitly all the time, you know, in the words the characters say when they're talking about the events that are taking place?

I never said it wasn't a major concern within the context of the show's mini-universe, and if you want to talk about them as if they're real people, then yeah, it's about money, privilege, etc. But they're not real people, and the show itself is patently not 'about' money or the lifestyle that comes along with it. You might as well say that Hamlet's 'about' a guy having trouble with his mum after his dad's death. On the one hand, within the context of the story, that's superficially the case. But Ryan's problems fitting in (because of his socially unacceptable past) could be for any reason apart from his poor background, and the show would still work. Look at Dylan in 90210 - his dad was richer than the Walshes by some considerable way, yet his character was almost identical to Ryan's in the OC. Dylan occupied a different place within the narrative, because the Walshes were usually the central characters (he was basically used as a catalyst for plot movement), but he was essentially the same character.

Ryan's position in the OC is more central, in terms of being our 'eyes' on the OC itself - but he isn't a commentator on this outrageous new lifestyle he's inherited, or the everyman/point of identification for the audience - he's a cuckoo, same as Dylan, there to provoke. The difference is that because he's the central point of the narrative, the provocation becomes central to the narrative - rather than being nuisance value ("if only Dylan would settle down, stop going off the rails, he and Brenda would be a great couple and her mom and dad would get on better with him"), it's actually the whole point of the concept (fish out of water, oh the agonies that ensue...).

But the thing that drive's the show isn't about their money - it makes the show flashier, but it's not an essential part of what makes it fun. As I said before, money may be an objective in The OC, but it's never the object - it's mentioned within the context, but it's not focal within the concept.

And we're back to "fun" v. "quality"... Gah. Who cares? Is it yet another manifestation of grim puritanism that makes people think "it's about pretty Californians... it can't actually be GOOD, even though I derive large quantities of pleasure and enjoyment from it, I cannot say it is QUALITAY..."?

No, mug. The OC is cheesy rubbish that is also great fun. But it is rubbish. The phrase 'uniformly average production values' refers to script (to the point where it's pointed out that Seth's best lines, which are always the best lines in the show, are in many cases not actually scripted), direction, editing, pacing/structure - it's average. No effort spared to make sure it's as homogenous as possible. It's mediocre, in terms of that quality index you can see shining in shows like The Sopranos, ER, Six Feet Under, etc. It's a primetime soap, whereas these others are dramas of varying descriptions. And yes, although it is fun, it is not quality. It's blindingly obvious, and it's not intended to be quality. Why does it have to be? It's just good harmless fun. Throwaway pop music in televisual form. Why insist that just because you enjoy it, it must be GOOD? I enjoy the OC, but I certainly wouldn't ever consider it jaw-dropping, fantastic TV like I do certain episodes of Buffy/Angel/ER/Twin Peaks/even fucking Due South...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:23 / 25.05.04
You seem to be forgetting that I do claim that throwaway harmless fun (etc) pop music is actually good, if I enjoy it...

But more confusingly, did you just invoke ER as quality television? Surely not the last few seasons? I guess that's an argument for another thread, but dude... Romano and the Curse of Helicopters?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:43 / 25.05.04
Look at Dylan in 90210 - his dad was richer than the Walshes by some considerable way, yet his character was almost identical to Ryan's in the OC.

Ah, but don't forget that Brenda and Brandon are themselves also Ryan - they have arrived from Minnesota with an entirely different culture and set of morals; they are supposed to be the non-Beverley Hills lens through which the non-BH audience could see... Dylan is Joey Potter, Anna is Andrea, Summer is Shelley, Luke is Zack and Seth is the love-child of Screech and David.

(sings)Simple, simple, you see....
 
 
No star here laces
14:25 / 25.05.04
Okay, in as much as any show, book or any other sort of story can be said to be 'about' one sole topic, the OC is not just about money. But how many times in every episode do the following things happen:

1) Sandy complains about the morals of the Newport community
2) Seth bitches about how shallow everyone is
3) Julie attempts to get accepted by society again
4) Caleb mentions to Sandy that he owns the house
5) Ryan is bemused by the social customs of the rich kids
6) Summer goes "ew, Chino!" or "ew, Pittsburgh"
7) Somebody talks about Ryan as if he must be a criminal because he is from Chino

Answer: quite a few.

What about the thanksgiving episode in which one of the central plotlines is about Ryan's brother, and Ryan leaving behind everything in Chino, including people who love him, in order to take advantage of the opportunities Newport offers?

What about the episode in which Luke gets shot which is all about rich/poor schisms?

To claim there is no reference to money whatsoever in this show is a leetle bit rich.

As far as 'is the show good', well, we all know that's kind of a futile question. However anyone would have to admit that the show is supremely successful at involving the viewer with the characters, delivering emotional highs and lows, and delivering moments of yelling at the screen. Which is pretty admirable and actually fairly rare.

The Sopranos is more cerebral and thoughtful, sure. But I'm not sure that makes it "better"...
 
  

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