BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Ban the car

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Ariadne
17:43 / 18.05.04
Yesterday I had to get a taxi 20 miles across London because I had to pick up some boxes for moving. The traffic was so bad that the taxi took over two hours to get to me and 90 minutes to get me home.

I've been aware that London had problems with traffic, but that brought it into sharp relief.

Now, I'm big on cycling, and am involved with various anti-car people and groups, so obviously I come to this with a fairly loaded agenda but ... how feasible would it be to ban private cars? Within urban areas, at least? I've been thinking it through myself and am looking for other people's ideas. I mean, politically it would be as popular as compulsory veganism and noone's ever going to do it until oil reserves are totally gone, but theoretically, how could it work?

What if people were allowed to hire taxis for essential journeys but otherwise had to use bikes or public transport? I suppose the streets would be full of people on 'essential' taxi trips and we'd be back to square one?

If I'd had a trailer on my bike I could have picked up those boxes - it would have taken about an hour and a half to get there, maybe a bit longer coming back because of the weight. So, not quicker but a lot more healthy and clean.

You get bikes adjusted for lots of disabilities, you could tow elderly and feeble people around on tandems or tuk-tuk style seats, and public transport could presumably be improved.

Anyway ... I hear so much about 'ban the car' and yesterday was muttering exactly that to myself, so... what do people think?
 
 
Char Aina
17:56 / 18.05.04
the day you can ban smoking in restaurants without public outcry will be the day the world will be ready to consider your proposal.

i see it as a case of 'me like, you no take', i'm afraid.

try telling the kids at the local campus to give up their nike's.

same thing.
 
 
sleazenation
18:58 / 18.05.04
Pros Less environmental damage, decreasing use of fossil fuel's, keeping the population fitter by forcing them to walk.

Cons: Its political suicide for anyone who trys, even if you did manage to get any kind of anti car legislation on the books it would be repealed by the opposition as soon as they got in, which would be at the first opportunity...
 
 
w1rebaby
19:00 / 18.05.04
I've thought about it before but you end up with a lot of problems defining what sort of cars you want to ban. What about business cars? I dare say most of the traffic on the streets in the daytime isn't people popping out to the shops. Many jobs are going to be impossible without cars or vans or the equivalent, public transport's not suitable. Then those people are going to use them for personal reasons too, unless you have inspectors flagging down vehicles and asking for proof that they're on a legitimate trip....

I never really saw the point of having a car in London, just another thing to get nicked, but then I didn't rely on one to get to or do work. What about people who work outside of London but live in London? Do they keep their cars outside city limits and take the train to them?

I don't think it's impossible to minimise the number of vehicles in London but in practice, the infrastructure has built up assuming the existence of cars, even if it's not always apparent. You'd need a massive redesign. Still, it's not as bad as many other cities.
 
 
Char Aina
20:05 / 18.05.04
Do they keep their cars outside city limits and take the train to them?


my dad used to live in surrey during the week and in southern wales at the weekend. long story...
he did however tell me that he frequently left the house early on friday so he could drive his car round the m25 a bit, from there getting a train in to vauxhall(his normal commute a walk to his local station). once there, he'd do a days work, and then grab a train back to his car to make the three hour journey to wales.

it sounds mental, but it really was the fastest and easist way.

the worst part was coming back for work on a monday, apparently.
 
 
Linus Dunce
20:08 / 18.05.04
A friend of mine does this and he drives all the way. He says it's usually OK. All the traffic's going the other way, you see.
 
 
HCE
21:03 / 18.05.04
In Los Angeles we've already banned smoking in not only restaurants, but also quite a number of other public spaces. It seems the street and your own home are practically the only remaining places. Things smell better.

While reducing traffic would also make things smell better, I think Los Angeles is simply too populous and too widespread to negotiate without a car.

I want a bigger garage so I can buy back my old second car (I miss you, darling).
 
 
Mourne Kransky
21:53 / 18.05.04
There are only pros, outlined in preceeding posts. There are no cons. It should be a criminal act to own and drive a motor car if you live in London.

We wouldn't presently be killing Iraqis either if it weren't for the sentimental attachment of Americans to their motor cars.
 
 
Olulabelle
22:10 / 18.05.04
You could possibly ban cars in cities with good transport links like London, but you couldn't ban all the vans and lorries and what not that appear to be necessary in order to fulfil our consumer driven lives. How would you get your Metro every morning? How would you get your organic milk? Milk deliveries to supermarkets are probably a bit too heavy for a bicycle.

Plus also, what's your definition of 'city'? Swindon? Cambridge? Norwich? How small do you go before cars are allowed?

And I know you didn't suggest it, but there's no way that cars can be banned altogether because all us country folk really need them. My nearest shop is 4 miles away and my son's school is 7. There are no (that's NO) buses that service my village and we don't have a train station. 7 miles really is a bit too far to walk to school, especially when you're 6, and anyway we'd have to leave at ridiculous o'clock in the morning.

I am your school run nightmare.
 
 
Char Aina
23:20 / 18.05.04
There are only pros, outlined in preceeding posts. There are no cons. It should be a criminal act to own and drive a motor car if you live in London.

We wouldn't presently be killing Iraqis either if it weren't for the sentimental attachment of Americans to their motor cars.


i quite agree.
some of the aussies seem to have a similar hard-on for petrol.
 
 
■
23:34 / 18.05.04
One of the biggest causes of screweed up traffic, wait make that two causes closely linked, are:

1)The School Run.
The worst hours for driving in the UK are those periods when kids are being driven unnecessarily long distances to schools which they would not have been able to go to twenty years ago (and not expected to) because the creed of consumer choice was extended to education without thought for the full consequences.

2)Paedo-fear.
The worst hours for driving in the UK are those periods when kids are being driven unnecessarily short distances which their parents think are necessary due to sensationalist reports about how dangerous the world is for the kids because very bush hides a slathering paedophile.

Cut these out of the equation, and things could work a lot better. What happened to school buses?
 
 
Olulabelle
23:36 / 18.05.04
The Americans are fearfully bad due to their propensity for gas guzzlers and their absolute refusal to build anything less than an 800 litre engine. But we British are also appalling because we appear to believe it is necessary to get in your car merely to go to the corner shop five minutes walk down the road.

We use cars like other nations use feet.
 
 
Olulabelle
23:47 / 18.05.04
Cube, it's a bit unfair to blame the parents for all of it.

I drive to school because that is the nearest school. No choice = drive. Close little local schools = drive.

And as for slathering Paedophiles in every bush, there may be sensationalist reports of this, and it is all severely over-hyped by the tabloids, but the fact remains it isn't as safe to let your kids out on their own as it used to be. There are statistics somewhere I am sure.

I dunno. Everybody without kids blames everybody with kids because it's not something they understand, and that kid life pattern isn't one they have any idea about. But quite frankly every day when I drive to school I encounter more people jollying off to their job in their big company cars on their single ownsome than I do mothers carrying two, three or four children in one car - often other people's children since Mum's are actually very good at car sharing.

I think if we did more to encourage car sharing amongst work colleagues and less of the blaming people with kids, the traffic congestion would go down considerably.
 
 
TeN
00:05 / 19.05.04
I swer to God, one of these days bicycles WILL rule the world!
 
 
netbanshee
05:51 / 19.05.04
I agree that everyone has a part to play, but the traffic is so much more manageable during the summer. Sure people are happier but that's cause the school-kid commute is now gone. 45 minute drive cut down to 20 minutes. It drove me nuts till I moved to the city. Now I drive my car once every two weeks just to keep in going...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:23 / 19.05.04
Clearly the only way this will work on a practical level is if we institute compulsory vegetarianism at the same time. That way, everyone who currently relies on a car to travel long distances can be allocated their own cow, sheep or pig (choice of animal depending on factors like body mass of rider, length of journey etc), from the surplus population of animals no longer being sent to the abbatoir. With the proviso that they treat their animal well, they will be able to ride it to work, school or the shops every day, and the only pollution we'll have to worry about will be the occasional cowpat. Oh brave new world that has such people in it!
 
 
Ariadne
07:23 / 19.05.04
Couldn't you cycle to school with your son, olulabelle? Riding through country lanes - sounds a lovely start to the day!
I do agree with you that there's an unfair snarkiness towards the school run when everyone else is driving, alone, to work.
 
 
Ariadne
07:25 / 19.05.04
Um.. I think there's an unfair snarkiness coming from Flyboy, too. Get out of bed in a funny direction, dear? It's only a suggestion, trying to help save the world and all that...
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
07:38 / 19.05.04
One of the most critical issues that needs to be considered is the very design of cities. Since the late 1800's the vast majority of city design has been implemented with travel and traffic as key issues. With arterial models being the most promeninent, the affect of traffic elimination would be very dangerous to the survival of the city as a social and economic entity.

I say this with some sadness as, being a cyclist and an environmentalist, I would dearly love to see a minimal traffic level on the roads of London, or anywhere for that matter. My own example from yesterday involves having a puncture. I took the train home which is fairly much a point to point exercise, both ends of the journey beng close to stations. The whole journey from work to home took an hour when it would otherwise take me 25 minutes by bike and I have to pay for the pleasure.

One model that has ben suggested in the recent past is a dual arterial system. It's a concept rather than an actual proposition that has been put forward for consideration AFAIK but one that provides an interesting approach to traffic management. One set of surface routes would be dedicated for regular personal and business traffic and the other set would be for public transportation and business access. It allows for increased flow in both sets as you don't encounter the issue of conflicting driving methods.

It is interesting to note that yet again the proposal is either of a logisitical or punitive measure. What would make greater sense is to look at the social/cultural elements behind transportation and look at what changes need to be made there. While vague attempts have been made to change the way that we think about transport, there have been no sustained campaigns other than those carried out by pressure groups. Admittedly people like Ken Livingstone and Boris Johnson do set an example, but examples in a city of 9 million are far too low visibility to be effective.

Sorry, a little bit ranty there but this is a matter that is very close to my heart, which now beats stronger and slower because I cycle. In short banning the car would be nice, but only to those of us who don't use them. Others with an identifiable need or an ingrained car mentality would be horrified and these are the people that we need to address if the traffic situation is to be improved to a more acceptable level.

My favourite fact du jour is that America would have no need for external oil sources if the CAFE were dropped by 3mpg, a measure that could be acheived with ease.
 
 
Ariadne
07:53 / 19.05.04
Yes, I don't relly think it's a feasible reality, just a nice cyclists' dream! Maybe schemes like London's Congestion Charge and the ever-higher cost of petrol are what will cut the number of vehicles on the roads long term. Unfortunately that just makes driving a thing for the rich and doesn't improve the other options for poorer people forced out of their cars.
If it gets too expensive for people in olulabelle's village to drive, for instance, then they're really stuck. without a coordinated improvement in public transport, it would be a real struggle for people.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:16 / 19.05.04
I actually own a car, but I only ever use it if I'm leaving the city. Sure, I could drive to work, but what's the point when I can get a bus and a)pollute less and b)sit and read while I come to terms with actually being awake.

I fully support the congestion charge, which HAS made a difference to Central London (not as much as I'd like... maybe if they hiked it up to a tenner it'd work better...)

What really pisses me off are people who claim to speak for all motorists... all this anti-speed camera shit; the fascism of parking fines, whatever. If you're gonna own a car, (which is a privilege NOT a right), then obey the fucking laws which allow you to do so or quit whingeing when they hit you for it. Personally, I think there should be MORE speed cameras...

I've just realised... I'm never gonna make a proper motorist. Or anarchist for that matter. Oh well, bye-bye Mad Max 4!
 
 
■
08:36 / 19.05.04
but the fact remains it isn't as safe to let your kids out on their own as it used to be.

Largely because a there are so many cars whizzing about near schools. A full third of child fatalities are due to traffic. I know it's a cheap shot to blame the parents for everything, but I think fear has got out of perspective.
No, I don't accept that it's much more dangerous now, except for the reason given above. If anything it's much safer as people are aware of child abuse, and don't just brush it under the carpet.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
08:47 / 19.05.04
Absolutely. All these people who claim that parking fines and speeding fines are just a revenue generating exercise have possibly the easiest and most legal way of demonstrating.

I used to work in Westminster parking fines dept and when one person found out she saw fit to complain about a parking ticket she received when she had only been there for a couple of minutes. Unsuprisingly she was unable to tell me where it said in the no parking zone that it's OK if it's only for a couple of minutes.
I used to love telling people that there was precisely no grace period whatsoever.
 
 
■
10:33 / 19.05.04
Yup. OK, I get a bit peeved when I occasionally get a ticket, but it's because I took a gamble and lost. If cycle lanes were respected, people might use them. As it is, a red track on the side of a raod says "park here!"

ANOTHER THING. When did hazard lights become a shorthand for "I know I'm breaking the law, but look; these flash, so I'm okay"? All the more irritating as it looks as if they are indicating to pull out.

I don't have a serious problem with traffic wardens - apart from the time I got a one reprimanded by his boss because he parked his moped too close to a pedestrian crossing. Arf.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
10:38 / 19.05.04
Yes but some cyclists take the view that a car parked in a cycle lane says "target practice for keys".

Very hard to refuse an offer like that.

1000 points for BMW.
 
 
Axolotl
10:51 / 19.05.04
I feel that cars are necessary sometimes, though I only use my ancient mini for the weekly supermarket trip or maybe going to the cinema, but that's life in the suburbs, when I lived in the city I never used a car.
Driving a car has a real negative impact on my personality, as the moment I get behind the wheel I turn into the angriest person alive shouting and yelling at everyone. Though this is aggravated by the number of people in the area who work on the assumption that it is the most expensive car that has the right of way.
Banning them completely is just a no go, as the entire infrastructure is (badly) designed around the car and it would take billions to rectify that.
 
 
Ariadne
10:52 / 19.05.04
They do?! Apart from being a peaceful type, if I were to scratch every car in a cycle lane I'd need to keep keys out all the time. I think most people really, honestly don't know they're not meant to park there. They don't get tickets for it, do they?
I *have* kicked the side panel of a car and left a dent, but they were pulling in to squash me at the time.
 
 
Sax
10:54 / 19.05.04
Well, I need my car because I'm a journalist. And in constant pursuit of The Truth. You wouldn't want me to have to cycle 23 miles to expose a Lying, Cheating Scumbag, would you?

(Oh, and Ariadne - can't wait to see what the Edinburgh business community thinks of your scheme when you outline it in your first column. Tee hee.)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:30 / 19.05.04
Honestly, you come up with a bold idealistic scheme to help restore this world we share to its former state of pastoral bliss, and people assume you're being snarky, just because it's totally impractical and nobody would ever agree to it! I'm hurt.

On a more serious note, cyclists who feel they have the right to scratch cars parked in cycle lanes might want to consider the possibility that pedestrians may also then take the law into their own hands - for example, should cyclists continue to believe that red lights at crossings do not apply to them, I may be forced to introduce them to the Spoke-Stick. Pointy pointy.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
11:41 / 19.05.04
I can accept that. Would you care to join my working group for better learning through pain?
 
 
Sax
11:48 / 19.05.04
While we're at it, if we *have* to put up with cyclists can we pass some kind of law banning them sticking their Lycra-clad arses bearing Rorschach-blot patches of sweat along their bumcracks in the air?

Because that's just offensive.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:09 / 19.05.04
I don't actually care about that...

BUT...

what cyclists (see how I magically transform an entire, diverse group of people into one single entity for the purposes of argument...) DO that irritates me ISN't even cycling on the pavement... for the most part, they're pretty good at evading obstacles including pedestrians, so it's no problem.

But when you've been (as a pedestrian! A fucking pedestrian!) waiting for AGES at a particularly complicated intersection so you can get your brief window through which you can make it to the other side, a cyclist ignores all the lights and ambles through REALLY SLOWLY so you can't get past, and THEN you have to begin the procedure all over again... that kind of dicks me off. (Not that many people do that... actually, not many at all... but the ones that do, I have a stick for their spokes. And it's waiting for the time... oh yes, it's just waiting...)

Or if they tell you to get out of the way when you're on the pavement. Fuck dat.

And people who push pushchairs two abreast on pavements.

And...

And...

To get back to the point... people in cars who drive in the bus lane should be summarily executed, and have their remains hung on speed cameras. THEN the fucking Mail-reading motorists (and Clarkson) wouldn't be able to complain that it's not fair they can't see the fucking things.
 
 
Ariadne
12:37 / 19.05.04
Oh, and how everyone annoys everyone else.

I'm sure it *is* impractical to ban cars in many ways - that's why I asked, cause so many sites I frequent take it as a given that it would be a good thing.

But then lots of people think the Congestion Charge is a bad thing, that bus lanes are a bad thing, even that speed limits are a bad thing ... and I don't agree. So it's worth thinking about new ways of running cities, surely?
 
 
Char Aina
16:09 / 19.05.04
t'olulabelle...
living in a village is a different thing entirely, isnt it?
any regulation would have to take into account usage requirements. would you agree that you are in the minority, living rurally?
i used to have a one hour drive to primary school, so i know it can be essential to some to drive daily.
i also used to have a friend who got driven to secondary school, a trip that took less time than a song took to play(he used to bitch about it... by the time he had cued his music, he was halfway there). i lived further away than him, and i walked.


i remember reading that aeroplanes create far more pollution than all the mums on school runs put together, yet no one talks of banning them.
it is, of course, self evident that occasional duty free runs and weekends in alicante are essential, and i wouldnt ever suggest that any businessmen abuse the free flights they get.
anyone fly to school?
 
 
Char Aina
16:10 / 19.05.04
t'olulabelle...
living in a village is a different thing entirely, isnt it?
any regulation would have to take into account usage requirements. would you agree that you are in the minority, living rurally?
i used to have a one hour drive to primary school, so i know it can be essential to some to drive daily.
i also used to have a friend who got driven to secondary school, a trip that took less time than a song took to play(he used to bitch about it... by the time he had cued his music, he was halfway there). i lived further away than him, and i walked.


i remember reading that aeroplanes create far more pollution than all the mums on school runs put together, yet no one talks of banning them.
it is, of course, self evident that occasional duty free runs and weekends in alicante are essential, and i wouldnt ever suggest that any businessmen abuse the free flights they get.
anyone fly to school?
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply