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Anti-semitism

 
  

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raelianautopsy
18:17 / 17.05.04
Has anyone actually READ what I said? I was never being racist.

Well, I'm about done with Barbelith, I have got about all I can get out of it. To me Barbelith should be about expanding your mind as far and as insane it can go, not about stopping offensiveness. What's so bad about being offensive? And I pushed the envelope, but I was never racist.

I can spell Semitic. I'm goddamn typing fast, people make mistakes.

If anyone has anything to say to me just e-mail me at crowleymillion@hotmail.com as I probibly won't be checking the PMs here anymore.

So have fun patting yourselves on the back for fighting racism and being so open-minded. You deserve a special treat.


Can I get a good riddance?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:24 / 17.05.04
Yup.
 
 
w1rebaby
20:54 / 17.05.04
Pushing the envelope? Accepting traditional anti-Semitic myths that go back centuries is pushing the envelope? That sounds like licking the envelope, sealing it shut and wrapping it in tape for good measure.

(Yes, I know, different sort of envelope.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:23 / 17.05.04
I don't know - did anyone say raelian was racist? Stupid, yes. Inefficiently socialised, certainly. Apallingly inept, indubitably. Acting in a racist manner, and soreading racist ideas, deffers. Hoom....
 
 
C.Elseware
08:37 / 18.05.04
I once got accused of being a racist due to (very stupid) poorly chosen words which did not convey what I meant them to be. I was actively shuned. It was the worst emotional abuse I have received in the last ten years. It took me some time to get over it.

So for my part, no, you can't get a "goood riddance" from me. Although I suspect I may be in a minority.

Maybe next barbelith meet we can take some time out to beat up suspected paedophiles. Don't forget kids, there should be limits to freedom.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:59 / 18.05.04
No one has ever been accused of racism or anti-semitism on Barbelith unless they have posted something which has been understood as being racist or anti-semitic by another poster or other posters. Also, in this current spate of discussions, no one has (as far as I can see) been accused of being irredeemably racist or anti-semitic. It has been, quite rightly, pointed out that some posters have said things that could be (and clearly have been) understood to be racist or anti-semitic, and why this is not a good thing, and why such issues should be addressed, and why bigotry is not something that many people on Barbelith are prepared to tolerate. I don't think anyone wanted to hound raelianautopsy or anyone (except the Fetch, who was banned for unapologetically propounding anti-semitic views) off the board. But if people wish to talk about controversial topics which might include discussions of anti-semitism, racism, etc. they should be prepared to think very carefully about what they say and how they say it, and that goes for everyone.

As I said before, people who aren't prepared to examine their views and statements in the light of criticism from others may find that there is relatively little tolerance for their 'controversial' opinions.

Making an analogy between this and paedophile-bashing is not helpful. I am sorry that you had such a distressing experience, and given that you have realised that your choice of words was misguided, it seems unfair of your acquaintances to ostracise you (and perhaps we have been guilty of similar behaviour with regard to raelianautopsy, though s/he has been very defensive about the statements with which people have been unhappy, which hasn't helped...)

I don't mean to sound as if I think I am the greatest, most morally incorruptible, most liberal and right-thinking person on the planet (though I probably do sound a bit like that, I know) - I just think that issues which are aas sensitive as this, and which have such potential for offending people (who are, lest we forget, real people, not just fictionsuits) should be handled with extreme care by all participants, and that everyone involved should do a lot of hard thinking and self-examination before they post.

I think that it is perhaps possible that we have been too quick to smack other posters down for their posts (which they clearly do not *believe* to be anti-semitic, either in intent or content, though other people are I think justified in taking the content to be, at the very least, unexamined). But given the extremely sensitive nature of such discussions and the deplorable recent instance of a poster actually promoting anti-semitism, I don't think we're unjustified in taking a critical stance towards such threads. And I think people are justified in being extremely angry about such threads, and expressing that anger is not, IMO, abusive...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:40 / 18.05.04
Oh no, we're just like George W. Bush! Do you see?

For. Fuck's. Sake.
 
 
w1rebaby
10:02 / 18.05.04
Goodness. That cunning mix of paedophile and Republican references has really opened my eyes to the essentially hysterical and authoritarian nature of my behaviour. I'd really not thought about it that way before. In fact I'd not even considered the issue at all.

How ironic that it is now we who have become the Nazis, eh? Eh?

I'm really glad now that we have people willing to take a stand against this. Like Rosa Parks.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:18 / 18.05.04
I called raelian an Anti-Semite, not sure if I called him a racist too. The thread, like Kosh, is always here and it might be useful to have note of this for if this sort of discussion comes up again (as with the 'why do we ban the Knodge?' threads).

So, is there any kind of opinion on whether Anti-Semitic threads should be automatically locked and deleted?
 
 
C.Elseware
11:36 / 18.05.04
I think that the thread probably should be removed, for the sake of the barbelith community. However it should also be remembered that doing so is a quite hurtful thing to the person who posted the thread. It should be done with some sensitivity.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:38 / 18.05.04
I don't think "automatic" is the right word, because it can easily be (mis)read to suggest that there is no place for discussion as to whether or not a thread is a Anti-Semitic. I think it's important to add a qualifier such as "persistently" or "indubitably"...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:48 / 18.05.04
Sorry, God that was garbled - I mean that it should be our policy to take some course of action against persistent and indubitable anti-semitism, but that on principal there should be some room for discussion as to what that constitutes. In other words, in the case of raelianautopsy's thread I agree that there was in fact anti-semitism present, but I have to conclude that however tiresome it may seem, we might have to have this discussion again if the situation re-occurs and is not as immediately, obviously clear-cut as I'd like to believe.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:16 / 18.05.04
anti-semitic can possibly be construed as hate speech...

Well yes. As can murderer, rapist, guy that's taller than I am, girl wot won't shag me...

Anything can be construed as hate speech... it's kind of how it works in the context of any given community (ie this one) that gives it meaning.

And I don't think that describing those who propound views which are, basically, against Jews, can possibly think that being called anti-Semitic is unfair.

Fucksakes, people! It's a matter of definition.

I'd just like to point out... I'm a hopeless bigot. I can't stand racists. I've tried... some of my best friends are racists... they've told me not to use the "R" word in their company... BUT I CAN'T HELP IT!

Must be a genetic thing.
 
 
C.Elseware
13:02 / 18.05.04
What I mean is it's a term with which you can brand someone and reasonably expect other people to show prejudice to them because of. I'm not saying don't use it, just remember words have power.

That of course cuts both ways. Some points of view are liable to misinterpretation. I agree that barbelith being googleable does change the situation.

I'm pretty impressed with some of the responses in this thread and really unimpressed with some others. It was fairly obvious that raelianautopsy is upset about the whole thing and trying to understand everyones (over)reactions.

fridgemagnet and mordant c. should cut back on the sarcasm when dealing with someone who's upset and confused. It just makes people more defensive.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:46 / 18.05.04
It was fairly obvious that raelianautopsy is upset about the whole thing and trying to understand everyones (over)reactions

Well it's pretty bloody obvious, if he could read his own threads in a way that approached objective than he'd know.

Screw it, this is why-
Milo Jacob was black. He did not talk with a black accent, so black people did not seem to like him much. He was also too smart for most of them.

Let's look at that last sentence, written as fiction but not exactly smart. Is this bad writing or racism? Sure, it's meant to be controversial but it's actually pretty fucking insulting.

Hmm moving swiftly on Raelian posts this thread in which his characters have a long and nasty conversation about judaism and then Whoop De Doo, a thread that is deemed anti-semitic by the board appears in another forum.

I don't understand why anyone is over reacting? All he has to do is spend a little time and attention and sort out the amount that he's treading on toes, instead he doesn't even SEE why people might think he's racist. Well it's about time he started looking.
 
 
Ex
19:18 / 18.05.04
And the original thread did run for an entire page of reasoned debate and light ribbbing before anyone stepped in with a large slappy WHAT THE FUCK. Which I, for one, am astounded at.

Personally, I feel it's about where you set the terms of the debate. If, as cusm hopefully extrapolates at the end of that thread, people on the board want to investigate the appeal and origins of anti-Jewish conspiracy theories, then that's a profitable enterprise which could be handled carefully to produce interesting stuff. However, I'd entitle that something like "Considering the origins of anti-Jewish conspiracy theories". Once you set the terms of the debate as "Go on - do they run the world or not?" it's already a knee deep in a lot of prior assumptions (that "they" are a coherent group, that this is a legitimate debate, that this debate doesn't have a history as long and nasty as my arm, that one can deal with such a topic 'objectively' and not cause offense). Some of these assumptions raelianautopsy managed to interrogate, for which he deserves credit - others he just let slide in an alarming way.

I think to claim that one can just "objectively study the facts" when the terms of the debate have already been placed in a fairly offensive patch of assumptions is problematic. I won't say disengenuous, because I have no idea how much raelianautopsy realised that was what he'd done. (On the other hand, I find it hard to understand how someone can gather that amount of anti-Jewish conspiracy theory information and not understand that there are some problems with presenting it on those terms.)

Deborah Lipstadt (holocaust historian) makes a similar case about Holocaust denial. She refuses to be the "other side of the case" on interviews with a Holocaust denial - she says it already sets the debate on a field which is inherently dodgy. Dragging the debate that far and then pitching your tent and saying "I'm looking at it objectively", means you've already done an enormous amount of ideological work, whether you realise it or not.

I know this is problematic, because it implies that some debates are already flawed, which goes against the happy chatty ethos of many board contributors. Debate is generally a Good Thing. But it's a point worth making that where you start the debate is already a step of that debate.

And we continuously, on the board, handle a lot of sensitive debates - about sex and race and other terrifyingly hot topics - with a lot of success. I hope we can negotiate this issue successfully.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:20 / 19.05.04
I'm sorry, I didn't realise that if I didn't get outraged but instead treated the question with obvious contempt I was making a huge mistake and therefore signalling that anti-semitism was okay on Barbelith. FFS...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:10 / 19.05.04
Huh? Who are you responding to there?
 
 
Ex
11:15 / 19.05.04
Lady, was that a response to my post? I didn't intend to imply that at all; I said I was 'astounded', not 'appalled' or 'disgusted'. I really appreciated the tactics taken by those in the thread including yourself, and I don't think it was 'a huge mistake' - I think ridiculing objectionable things has worked successfully to reduce the amount of unpleasantness all over the board.
If I'd meant to say that, I would have just said "Why didn't anyone go in studs-up sooner." I can see dozens of reasons why an overtly agressive pile-on would only have made things worse.

My comment was trying to counter c.elseware's suggestion that raelianautopsy had had a rough time of it; I was suggesting that a far rougher time could have been had but for people holding their tempers and opting to use other tools of contempt, and that in fact he had a fair run of it and some intelligent debate before he got any appreciable degree of hassle.

Sorry for any confusion.

(And to cover myself in both directions, I also support Tom coming in with a different style.)
 
  

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