BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Policy & Help >

Anti-semitism

  
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Lurid Archive
14:46 / 14.05.04
We now have a thread in the switchboard in which a poster wants to examine Jewish conspiracies and holocaust denial. And we have recently had a poster banned for anti-semitism, yet who had a long thread in which he expounded his views, before being banned.

Now, on the whole, I tend toward a hands off moderation approach but I think we should make a decision about this kind of material. The freedom of posters to express whatever views they want is an important value, but not an absolute one. In particular, Tom has always been quite clear that hate speech is not tolerated here.

Now, one might defend the threads we have had by saying that they are not anti-semitic, at least not by intention. I think the most generous interpretation I can give is that are ignorant, perhaps unwitting, regurgitations of far right propoganda. Do we want to protect the free speech of people who, at best, are completely misinformed? When doing so may, and reportedly does, discourage Jews from participating?

I think that we should be clearer about this and be quicker to lock and delete threads which appear anti-semitic, or which seem inspired by anti-semitism. Thoughts?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:59 / 14.05.04
Apologies as this may not be strictly relevent to the subject at hand but as someone has locked the thread in the Switchboard I'm having to post it here. What concerns me less than raelianautopsys anti-semitism are these Jewish Barbeloids who have seen two threads on Barbelith and told Tom that they are leaving, despite the fact that the threads in question show the general consensus amongst members who posted has been that racism is bad and something we have little tolerence for. Fetch got people pointing out his errors and Raelian got the same and no small amount of ridicule. Yet we have people who supposedly believe that Barbelith has turned into the Hitler Youth? To which my response has got to be: What the fuck are you on about?

I don't want to know their names but I'd be interested to know how many times they've posted to the board and how long they've been joined, because I can't believe that anyone that's actually talked to the crazy, wonderful, intelligent, insane people we've got on this board would think they are Anti-Semites. Of course, they might be confusing that with an abhorance of the tactics of the Israelis in the Occupied States, but that's a different matter.

I think Tom was wrong in his 'I'm ashamed of you all' speech and if this is a consequence of the board becomming Googleable then I'm concerned about it, but not the board.
 
 
w1rebaby
16:11 / 14.05.04
As I said on the thread about the Temple, having anti-semitic threads remain on Barbelith is actively dangerous to the board, because the longer they are up the more they give the impression to a casual visitor that that sort of thing is tolerated here, and encourages others to post similar. As well as that I'm thoroughly ashamed that Tom has been told by Jewish posters that they don't feel welcome here because of such stuff.

I voted against removing the Switchboard thread for the immediate moment because I feel a few people have a need to comment further, and I'd like to hear from raelianautopsy who originally started it... but it certainly shouldn't stay for any longer than a day, and quite possibly less. And anything further needs to go very quickly.

I do not think we have any duty to tolerate dumb right-wing myth-repetition ("how do I know there are lots of Jews in the media? well, everyone knows, right?") and carefully point out the errors, any more than we should carefully explain why that isn't the case if someone starts a thread called "Gays - child molestors?" There's a certain level of basic knowledge and research that you really should be expected to do before entering into discussion, and suggesting offensive things even from a position of cluelessness doesn't make them significantly less offensive. And as for those coming on and deliberately spouting incoherent Nazi drivel... well, only Mr Coates can ban them, but I'm not going to argue.
 
 
w1rebaby
16:20 / 14.05.04
OLOTF: Well, I don't know Tom's friends either (obviously) and I don't know their exact reasoning, but the length that some of these things get to, and the fact that the most patently anti-semitic shite seems to find defenders and deniers, does make me ashamed.

And I'm fucked if I'm going to let that happen in the Switchboard, where I am at least a mod and have some influence.
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:23 / 14.05.04
I'm with fridge on this, especially in feeling ashamed that some Jewish posters have contacted Tom about it. Flowers, I think the point is that, though we may not be anti-semitic, how much do we tolerate anti-semitism? What impression do we give about this? The fact that some people told Tom rather than posting inthread unsettles me. I think we've dropped the ball and I think we should have a think about it.
 
 
Harold Washington died for you
17:30 / 14.05.04
Talking about Israel should not fall under the anti-Semitism rubric. "The Jews" is a silly term that has as much specificity as "the Americans" or "the Arabs." Israel is a nation with no more entitlement to protection from criticism then Iraq (govt. of Saddam) or the USA (govt. of Bush). I think that is self-evident but it needed to be said anyway.

On a personal note, I think the anonymous callers who did not like the conspiracy thread should get over themselves. You had a golden oppotunity to enlighten someone who perhaps was anti-Semitic, share your experience and just why the topic is so sensitive. Maybe next time.
 
 
raelianautopsy
18:19 / 14.05.04
I don't think I was being racist. I'm just throwing ideas out there, and no one has to agree. I thought I was being extremely balanced on looking at both sides.

I admit that I like being controversial for its own sake. After the Fetch thing I wanted to see how far I could go. But I was not being hateful. I'm just saying that we should question things that are taboo, precisely because they are taboo. Its such a sensitive topic that at least for me, I want to give signifigant consideration to that side of the issue. But if you read what I actually said, I said that there is not a unified Jewish conspiracy, and I said that Nazis are evil even when you hypothetically (the key word is hypothetical) take the position of the far right.

Of course I disagree that the thread should have been locked, and by the way do re-read that last post on there for some added perspective. I do not believe that what I wrote will inspire any anti-semetism. But its not my website so do what you feel you should.

Is this my last post? Oh well.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:07 / 14.05.04
For what it's worth I don't think you are some sort of undercover rascist writing these things out of anti-Semitism, and I certainly don't think you're another Fetch, but I do think that some of the ideas that you left unchallenged as starting points there needed to be challenged before posting them. All the stuff about "yes, well, Jews do have disproportionate influence in the media" etc - do they? Really? Why not dig up a few figures first if you're going to make that sort of claim?

It's all very well saying we need to be logical and rational about examining these claims - fine with that, don't think it's at all necessary given the minimal nature of the evidence for them, but in principle, okay. But I do not consider that you started off presenting them logically and rationally. The logical, rational approach would seem to me to take an existing position, examine the evidence for and against it, and invite discussion concerning your evaluation of the evidence, which you appear not to have done here, instead diving right in with the old spiel about power and bloodlines, assuming it to be true.

I'm not making this stuff up about it encouraging people to come in and Nazi the place up, either. Barbelith is quite a low-profile site, but there are boards around where members actively proselytise this stuff, and they look for thread titles like that.

Apart from the potential damage to Barbelith, while this may be one of thousands of message boards on the net, it doesn't live in a consequence-free intellectual vacuum. Firstly there are real people out there who find this sort of thing really, really offensive so you need to make damn sure you've got a good reason before you offend them. Secondly there are real people out there who use these ideas to spread hatred, promote racist ideologies and hurt and kill people, so you need to make damn sure you've got a good reason before you give them a platform.
 
 
h3r
23:43 / 14.05.04
some guidelines have certainly been established
(in regards to what taboos not to talk about)
so this thread summary question has pretty much been answered I would say....
so as suggested earlier by Tom in the other thread, let's get on with our lives, in the temple, comic, etc, implementing these guidelines about what not to talk about.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
05:30 / 15.05.04
Gah. So I wrote a Conversation topic on this yesterday, and only hit the button on it this morning. Since it's more general, and since the Conversation isn't only about fluff, I'd propose y'all leave it there rather than moving it here, but you can do what you like with it.

First time I've been ashamed of not losing my temper out loud on Barbelith.

Always a new day...
 
 
Cherry Bomb
07:39 / 15.05.04
I only just discovered the anti-semitism thread in the switchboard yesterday, and only had a chance to read it today. I have to say the title and a fair bit in it, in particular the nod to holocaust revisionism makes me feel physically ill. I'm all for free speech but I don't think we should tolerate racism or anti-semitism in any way. While I understand what Illmatic and Tanntamount are saying in regards to discussion, do we really want to engage in a discussion on whether or not "Jews Run the World" on Barbelith? I'll be surprised if anyone who all ready posesses a racist or anti-semitic point of view will actually be interested in a dialogue that could lead to changing their views, and I don't think Barbelith should give over space to racists.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
07:55 / 15.05.04
Just thinking a bit more on this. While I support free speech, and the right of a racist fucker to espouse his views or write about them or whatever, not every forum of expression should be open to them. What type of forum do we want Barbelith to be? Personally I would rather Barbelith be a place where the Jewish posters I know feel comfortable posting than a place where a racist fucker thinks his or her views get an audience.
 
 
Linus Dunce
08:22 / 15.05.04
Free speech does not give you the right to say whatever you want, whenever you want.

Free speech does not give you the right to say whatever you want, whenever you want.

Free speech does not give you the right to say whatever you want, whenever you want.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:11 / 15.05.04
I'll be surprised if anyone who all ready posesses a racist or anti-semitic point of view will actually be interested in a dialogue that could lead to changing their views

If you're right, it's very sad and very bad. I don't actually think it is - I know a few people who have learned their way past prejudice and racist fantasy - mostly through experience, it has to be said, but not uniquely. I suppose possibly it's also helpful to provide a framework of ideas someone can draw on if life suddenly provides them with a lot of experience which starts to change their mind.

Free speech does not give you the right to say whatever you want, whenever you want.

No, but nor is it necessarily useful to exercise the power to curtail speech which is offensive.

Anyway, I started a more general thread, which I hope you'll join.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:24 / 15.05.04
Raelianautopsy, you need to take a course in race relations, whether you mean it or not your posts are coming across as racist. You wrote that fiction in Creation which frankly made some alarming statements about colour and now you've posted a long explanation that I interpret as anti-semitic in a thread that you started. If you want me to pick out quotes in explanation than I'd be more than happy to do so but tbh there's only so much you can do before you hit the troll barrier and really offend someone. You've already managed to get to me and I'm not black or Jewish. What's it going to be next, a poem about women and their place in the home? I'm sick of reading this, it's not really my place but I'm telling you anyway, start reading what you write and clean it up.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:27 / 15.05.04
I admit that I like being controversial for its own sake.

Jolly good. If controversy for controversy's sake is the goal, maybe one could espouse the Flat Earth theory instead of the World Jewish Conspiracy theory. There's about as much evidence, and relatively few people have been put to death over it in the last six decades or so.

After the Fetch thing I wanted to see how far I could go. But I was not being hateful. I'm just saying that we should question things that are taboo, precisely because they are taboo.

Did it never occur to you to do a little preliminary research? You might have discovered that there are reasons why people get angry when you suggest that "the Jews" run the world. This is an extraordinary claim demanding extraordinary evidence, evidence that seems rather sparse. (Namechecking prominent Jewish individuals is not evidence. It is anecdote.)

You also might have discovered that there are reasons why people get angry when people suggest that the Holocaust didn't happen, or involved a much smaller number of victims than is generally reported. There's a massive body of evidence to support the fact that it happened, that it happened pretty much as accepted history relates, and that it involved pretty much the same number of people as accepted history tells us.

The only reason, then, for someone to cling to the concept of a Jewish conspiracy or of a non-existant Holocaust is that this person is deeply ignorant, or harbours a terrible hatred for the Jews.
 
 
w1rebaby
18:59 / 15.05.04
I find it a bit odd and a bit disturbing that there seems to be a perception that the reason we don't discuss Jewish conspiracy theories is because they're "taboo", as if deep down we recognise there are issues to discuss, but ooh, we can't discuss them, the shaman has said so, we're scared.

It's not because they're taboo. It's because they're horseshit. There are no issues to discuss except perhaps "why would anyone believe this in the first place?".

And while we might spend a great deal of time discussing things that are horseshit and for which there is no real evidence in an innocent waffly "I'm bored" way, the continued "discussion" of these "issues" keeps them afloat. It doesn't really *matter* whether some people think Grant Morrison was inspired by alien time travellers. It *does* matter whether some people think Jews own the media.
 
 
raelianautopsy
23:02 / 15.05.04
'The logical, rational approach would seem to me to take an existing position, examine the evidence for and against it, and invite discussion concerning your evaluation of the evidence'

That's exactly what I thought I did! With the bloodlines and general NWO stuff, I didn't really do this because that would just be too much information. But with regards to Jewish aspects of whatever conspiracy there may or may not be, examing evidence for and against it and then iviting discussion was EXACTLY what I intended to do.

Someone sent me a message that I shouldn't have used 'THE' Jews, but instead 'some' Jews. I made that dinstinction very clearly in the original post. The word 'THE' was used in the title, but does anyone notice that the title has a question mark after it? Do you know what a question mark is? (it looks like this- '?')

And when I talked about Holocaust revisionism I also used the word 'hypothetical'. Does anyone know what that word means? Maybe it is horseshit and maybe it isn't, but I'll assume that none of you World War II scholars that are experts in the field. So I can conclude nothing but that you are afraid of the subject because it is a social taboo.

I said that if you 'HYPOTHETICALLY' take the position of NeoNazis the Nazis are still the bad guys. What's wrong with making that point? And I think a philisophical discussion about not so much the facts of Holocaust revisionsim, but people's reactions to it, is still a valid discussion!

I don't have any pie charts about how many Jewish people are in the media. But have you ever looked at the credits of a Hollywood movie? It is common knowledge that there are many Jewish people in Hollywood. Don't forget that Jewish people are only 5% of the American population. But even still, I explained the historical reasons for this and specifically said that it is not necessarily malicous planning.

So why should I take a race relations class? People are offended too easily, and that's not my fault.
 
 
---
23:06 / 15.05.04
It doesn't really *matter* whether some people think Grant Morrison was inspired by alien time travellers. It *does* matter whether some people think Jews own the media.

Exactly. It's fine to talk about alien time travellers but not Jews. Why? Fuck knows, but i keep seeing the two words 'Anti-Semetism' till it makes me wanna scream.

The thing is, it's Tom's board, he's had people leaving over this, so i can understand that it's a touchy situation, but like i said in the Temple : if we talk about American's ruling the world, it doesn't raise an eyebrow, but when it comes to a semetic group of people we have sounbites all of a sudden.

We are going on and on to the degree of total madness but aren't realizing that we are discriminating in favour of Jew's instead of just going along and letting the topic be discussed. (by bringing up the words 'Anti Semetism' instead of just letting the topic take it's course, then if it gets out of hand, ban people or whatever, but at least it's been discussed and it's been proven that it can at least be discussed)

You can bet for a fact that this is going to be discussed even more in depth on another board, and if Tom's had people leaving over this then maybe that's the best thing, but i can't help feeling that if The Fetch had just got his thread discussed in the first place, it would of all been over with day's ago.
 
 
---
23:17 / 15.05.04
And of course the more this get's avoided, the more your feeding the people that actually believe there's a real conspiracy. If it had of been left, maybe it would of been better, and that's with no disrespect to Illmatic, it's not like he's seen all this coming after the thread locking.
I can understand that it's touchy, but maybe the Jewish people who left went a bit over the top. I mean they could of at least posted, but then again, i'm not in their position and i should have more respect, but respect for what? The breakdown of communication? Maybe we really are touching on something here.

And no, i'm not 'Anti -Semetic', i'm talking about a group of Jew's not the whole fucking race, it's just over the top.

It's 99% certain that the American government is doing the wrong thing, but talk about Jew's and you get soundbites.

It reeks of bullshit, and that's not directed at this board, it's directed at the whole fucking planet.
 
 
w1rebaby
23:44 / 15.05.04
Exactly. It's fine to talk about alien time travellers but not Jews. Why? Fuck knows, but i keep seeing the two words 'Anti-Semetism' till it makes me wanna scream.

Oh, for fuck's sake. Can you really not see the difference? Let me spell it out for you.

There are those out there, outside your doorstep, who will beat up Jewish people, smash the windows of synagogues, desecrate cemetaries and generally blame all the problems of the world on Jews. They do this. It's real. It's not a fucking game.

By promoting the idea that there's an issue here that's just being papered over because people are somehow scared of it - an issue that nobody has actually even attempted to provide anything like evidence for, and is based on "common knowledge" i.e. myth - you are keeping the idea alive.

When you or anyone else has any even slight evidence that there is a Jewish world conspiracy out there, and I mean real evidence, not drivel or the parrotting of unproven "common knowledge" spread by anti-Semites, by all means present it. Observe that I am not holding my breath until this occurs. Until then, I don't care whether every single fucking person who thinks that promoting racist myths is defending free speech leaves the board and doesn't come back. I don't want that sort of moron around in my life, online or offline.

And, bloody hell, learn how to spell "anti-Semitism".
 
 
Linus Dunce
00:34 / 16.05.04
Raelian, Cosmicwave, all of you fuckers, whoever you really are --

Talking in the terms you do about Jewish people is not 'taboo', or 'locked down' or 'censored'. It's just fucking stupid. Like talking about the earth being flat is stupid. Except more offensive. And the offense (mainly) is why your shit got shizzled.

But I think you know this. What is it you're really after?
 
 
Char Aina
03:36 / 16.05.04
And of course the more this get's avoided, the more your feeding the people that actually believe there's a real conspiracy.

dude, they'll eat anything.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:55 / 16.05.04
Until then, I don't care whether every single fucking person who thinks that promoting racist myths is defending free speech leaves the board and doesn't come back.

I couldn't agree more and I suspect that I am not alone. It is a shame if certain people can't recognise when they are spouting unsupported far right trash and believe that ignorance is a good sustitute for open inquiry. But, ultimately, that is their problem.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:47 / 16.05.04
You're so not alone on that one.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:18 / 16.05.04
While I have nothing to add to the arguments of Fridge et al., I'd just like to register my opinion that there's no place on this board for threads such as the one in the switchboard (and I never even saw the "bad" stuff that got someone banned), and I'm kind of disappointed in people who saw the need to engage the arguments in the initial post in a rational manner.
 
 
Tom Coates
13:14 / 16.05.04
Let me put it this way - the academic, historical, political and evidential record all says that the Holocaust happened and that it was an atrocity. What you're proposing is that we should consider two positions as totally equally valid: "X" which defies all the evidence and expert opinion and actual memories of the people who were there and "Y" which is supported by all the evidence, expert opinion and the memories of the people who were there. Well, I'm sorry, I'm not prepared to take the 'it never happened' theory even vaguely seriously until such a time as you manage to overturn fifty years of scholarship, human experience and historical documentation! It doesn't matter if you believe it or not, you can't argue anything on the basis that it might be true until you've demonstrated that it's anything but ludicrously unlikely. I mean it's the equivalent of saying, "You know - it's not impossible that Nelson Mandela was the Yorkshire Ripper, so if someone said he was without evidence then we'd have to take that position really seriously", when - you know - it pretty much is impossible, and we pretty much shouldn't!

I'm going to say it one final time - if you can't even SPELL semitic, then I'm not going to believe that you're (1) Jewish or (2) seriously engaged with the issues around this subject. Barbelith is not going to become a place where people can engage in racial stereotyping that could result in increased violence and prejudice against people who are slightly different! I'm not prepared to live with that responsibility!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:22 / 16.05.04
I don't care whether every single fucking person who thinks that promoting racist myths is defending free speech leaves the board and doesn't come back.

Well, me neither. In fact, I'd help them pack.

Trouble is, they probably won't leave the board. I guarantee a flurry of whiny reflexive frea-speachifying over this (see above), possibly deteriorating into trolling, spamming, long tedious threads about how people are being "silenced" and what a scandal it is, vague threats against "guilty" mods, etc etc chiz moan drone...
 
 
Seth
13:46 / 16.05.04
I had to help my manager bar a long-time regular on Thursday night. He'd kicked off twice in the last week, been abusive to several other customers, and made a couple of the bar staff cry on several occasions (including the night we barred him, when he made Vicky cry. It was her twenty first birthday party).

We'd been generous to a fault with him, but that was the last straw. The pub is there for people to socialise and have a good time, and as soon as someone appears who gets in the way of that, then they'll be attacked by the pub's immune system. The regular in question tried to argue the toss with the manager, at which point I told him in no uncertain terms that the decision had been made and that we weren't seeking his consent. We then escorted him out, listening to a tirade of "fuck-yous" directed at us.

Analogy? Yeah. Simplistic? Maybe. But it explains why I'm not going to waste time soul-searching just because we've lost another idiot, and why I won't in future.
 
 
---
19:09 / 16.05.04
Oh, for fuck's sake. Can you really not see the difference? Let me spell it out for you.

There are those out there, outside your doorstep, who will beat up Jewish people, smash the windows of synagogues, desecrate cemetaries and generally blame all the problems of the world on Jews. They do this. It's real. It's not a fucking game.

By promoting the idea that there's an issue here that's just being papered over because people are somehow scared of it - an issue that nobody has actually even attempted to provide anything like evidence for, and is based on "common knowledge" i.e. myth - you are keeping the idea alive.

But I think you know this. What is it you're really after?

Jeez, calm down. I actually didn't realize that this was one of the problems and can see now what you mean a lot more. Some of you are going over the top though, asking what i'm really after? Hey, you can think i'm racist all you want but you'll be as wrong as you can be.

I'll leave this anyway, i don't know the issues that surround this so i'm out of it.

When i first got into this it was because i thought that someone had been banned unfairly, i didn't know anything about holocaust deniers or that maybe skinheads or neo nazi's or whatever actually read this type of thing and went around attacking Jew's based on this type of stuff, i suppose i should of been more aware.

So sorry for wading into this without much knowledge of it, i can't believe some of you actually think i have hidden motives or whatever, but if i had a better knowledge of this maybe i'd realize more about it.

Anyway, hopefully that's me out of this, i like coming here and if i wind anymore of you up i'll probably be banned, and i'd be pretty gutted, so sorry for thinking i knew what this was about. Maybe i was just arguing because the thread seemed to be trying to get peoples opinion's on something and i was confused as to why it got locked.

If anyone does think i have something to hide in this issue i'd be happy if you could PM me about it and hopefully i can help you realize the truth : that i have nothing to hide.

I'm even getting paranoid now trying to work out if there is actually something wrong with me.

I feel a little annoyed that some of you are getting so wound up with me here, even to the point that you'd be happier if i left, but maybe that's my own fault for getting into something i don't really understand as well as you people. Actually i've only just found out that some of you know a lot more than me about this, so maybe i'm being a bit harsh on myself here, i'm not psychic or anything. I could actually be banned by now because some of you think i know more about this issue than i do, and i really don't.

Sorry Tom, i'm actually learning about this as i read this thread, i should have stayed out of this whole thing but i really didn't know that it went this deep.

I'm gonna have a smoke now, i'm all stressed out.
 
 
---
19:27 / 16.05.04
Shit. I've just requested that some of that message be edited, including the bit about asking some of you to calm down, i suppose if people have left over this you have a right to be wound up.

Damn, i don't even know what i'm doing anymore. I don't even know if i'm trolling or not, i'm off to read the wiki and hope that i hit the ball on my third strike, i'm sure i'm after getting banned or something. Why though, i don't know.
 
 
---
19:41 / 16.05.04
Ok i just had a look, because i wanna be clear on this and have the feeling that if i don't i could be banned shortly :

'Essentially, a troll is somebody who posts controversially and/or offensively, but without any real interest in discussion or exchanging ideas. A devoted troll can carry on doing this for a long time, and in some cases somebody may be replicating the activities of a troll without noticing (see below). Trolls want either to generate lengthy and pointless threads for their own gratification, or rot existing threads in the same way. It is sometimes hard to tell when somebody is trolling and when they are just very dim, but the need for attention, frequently continuing to post after everyone else has given up or changed the subject, is often a dead giveaway.'


Ok i'm guilty of posting controversially and offensively, but i'm sure i've always had an interest in the threads that i'm posting in, and have wanted to contribute.

I'm aware that i'm actually rotting this thread, but i'm going out of this discussion now because i don't really know enough about it and any or all of my posts can be deleted.

As for trying to work out whether i'm trolling or just being very dim, well i've only just worked out how to spell anti-semitic, so i think i'm just dim in this case.

Just wanted to try and clear this up, because if i'd of just left the first post i did about 40 mins ago without requesting that it be edited i think i'd of been banned.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:15 / 16.05.04
Crossposted from the Creation:

Oh dear.

Banning doesn't work like that, Firewave. People are banned by Tom's action rather than by moderator vote, and only if their presence is perceived to be actively damaging to Barbelith. It is an extremely rare occurence, and as far as I know simply being cretinous is not in itself banning material.

However, the cretinous issue is something that you may want to address. You have in both this thread and the "Anti-Semitism" thread suggested that people calm down or that they are going over the top, but have you considered that hurtling into these threads like a dog with two dicks might be something that *you* might want to calm down a bit on? I seem to recall that a couple of days ago you did not know what anti-Semitism was, and then mere moments after that, after a quick trip to Google, you were telling everybody that they were wrong in their understanding of it, and generally very loudly and rather embarrassingly displaying your ignorance. Likewise this thread - I am absolutely gobsmacked that you managed to avoid any knowledge of Nick Berg, deciding instead that this was somebody who had selflessly agreed to have his head chopped off for the sake of some amateurish computer graphics.

However, what is truly gobsmacking is that you decided, without any research, to bowl into these extremely passionately-argued threads with your uninformed opinion and start insulting people for not getting it. Perhaps that might be identified as "going over the top"? Or needing to "calm down"? Just maybe?

It seems, despite your claims, that you are far more interested at present in parading your views, no matter how ill-informed, than you are in taking the time to consider or indeed to learn anything except the bare minimum required to contribute to the thread. That's contribute, not contribute value. And, if you decide to do this about decapitated civilians, anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial, and have to have it explained to you that maybe, just maybe, the fucking Blood Libel is more important than where Grant Morrison gets his ideas, people are going to think that you are a moron. And they are going to be right. Sorry, simple as that. Also, it means that you are going to introduce a massive drag factor to threads while everybody has to stop and explain humanity 101 to you, which is unlikely to endear.

Now, stop saying that you are thick as if it was some sort of defence and act on it. If you want to be thought of as a worthwhile interlocutor, start doing the groundwork. Ask people where to find things out. Read around. Have some idea of what is actually being discussed before you start telling people what they should be thinking about it. That will probably enrich massively your experience of this place you enjoy attending, because people will call you an idiot a lot less. Right now thick is not the issue, anti-Semitic is not the issue - ignorant, lazy and self-absorbed is the issue.
 
 
C.Elseware
07:21 / 17.05.04
There's a difference between the jewish blood, the jewish religion, the jewish culture and the israeli government.

I consider discusions compairing say, blacks & whites, just silly unless you've got a hell of a lot of real statistical evidence.

I dislike the way people accused of racism are ostracised and patronised. Prejudice against prejudice creeps me out.

I for one do not know if some jewish people do use positions of power to further an agenda. I doubt there really is a conspiracy, but conspiracy theories are interesting and barbelithy.

I think the rules should be that anything significantly controversial must be *really* backed with evidence to the moderators approval or risk having it pulled. A shouting match is of no interest to me; a real discussion is.

We should be careful when calling people anti-semitic. In my opinion it is a hate word too.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:58 / 17.05.04
I don't think people are generally accused of racism unless they have actually said something racist... and people who post racist or anti-semitic remarks without realising that their comments are likely to be construed as being racist or anti-semitic need to think a bit more carefully about what they say, and what it says about them.

Personally I think it is entirely justifiable to ask people to examine their prejudices, and if they are unwilling to do so, to be prejudiced against them for that. Is it in fact prejudicial at all to dislike people who post racist, anti-semitic and other objectionable remarks and then fail to recognise that that is what they have done? It might be better to think of it as 'exercising judgement based on available evidence'...

I think most people are aware that they are capable of prejudice and try to avoid behaving in such a manner. Some people aren't, and don't.

And on the term 'anti-semite' being employed as 'hate speech' - I disagree. I realise that it can be employed as a catch-all term to denigrate and discredit opponents of Israeli government policy. But I don't think that calling posts and posters which - even tacitly - give support to holocaust denial, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc. anti-semitic can possibly be construed as hate speech...
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply