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Feminism and sexist culture

 
 
Jester
22:24 / 09.05.04
Following on (very loosly) from the 'cunt' thread: how do people feel about culture/music/books that are open to criticism for being more or less sexist (or, indeed, racist, homophobic, etc)?

I just got back from a WASP gig, and I have to admit to liking a lot of heavy metal, much of which is either openly or underlyingly sexist. This is despite being a feminist, and quite often critiquing *other things* for being sexist.

So, purely on the basis of avoiding being utterly hypocritical, should I be avoiding this? It's not unknown: I wouldn't go to see the Dead Kennedy's sans Jello, although I would love to even without him, so should I give up 'cock rock' too?

Is that completely unnecessary, though? If I did, where would it end? Not reading Tristram Shandy because of its portrayal of women?

It could be said that, using Tristram Shandy as the example, it was written in another time, but I find that argument doesn't hold much water. Engels wrote The Origin of the Family... in 1884, nearly forty years before, say Jane Austen, which is a radically feminist text (not that it doesn't have its own major problems). So, where does that leave the issue of what to do with my Skid Row CDs?

/apologies for bringing my apalling music taste to bare on the Head Shop
 
 
SMS
04:01 / 10.05.04
I see three things at play.
First is the potential impact that exposing yourself to sexism will have on you. Do you, for instance, start cursing suffragists after listening to heavy metal?
Second is the monetary contribution to sexists in culture. Do you really want these sexist pigs to have your money?
Third is the contribution to the cultural normalization of sexism. Does the fact that these guys have a following make sexism more acceptable?

Each of these should be assessed in degrees.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
08:03 / 10.05.04
Artistic creations by people who hold beliefs you disagree with.

Ta da. That took much too long to find.

More, perhaps, when I don't have quiiite so much w*rk.
 
 
No star here laces
08:40 / 10.05.04
Short answer: if it doesn't offend you personally, life's too short to care.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
11:13 / 10.05.04
Short answer: if it doesn't offend you personally, life's too short to care.

Yeah! Who cares? Let the ****ers fight discrimination themselves!

Or have I perhaps misunderstood? I can only assume you mean that one should only care about a cause if it affects oneself directly, as if you were to mean "only care about sexism if you're bothered by its existence" then this thread's based on a bit of a non-question.
 
 
No star here laces
14:53 / 10.05.04
No, what I mean is that Jester clearly enjoys WASP, otherwise she wouldn't go. And if she was offended by WASP then she wouldn't enjoy their music, and therefore probably wouldn't go.

Her doubts are due to feeling that maybe she shouldn't enjoy WASP. But I'd intuitively said that any sexism displayed by WASP is clearly so ridiculous and unrelated to everyday life that she doesn't actually find it offensive. Ergo common sense would dictate that it isn't really very harmful.

Much better to get worked up about the Daily Mail, for instance...
 
 
Jester
15:39 / 10.05.04
Well, WASP isn't that good of an example, but a band like Skid Row, who are utterly and unashamedly sexist and DO offend me, I can still enjoy, up to a point...

I don't think it's as black and white as if it offends me, I shouldn't listen... Especially when you extend the principle to other art forms, for example, literature (of most interest to me because I read so much). But the difference with music is maybe that I'm more likely to enjoy it than enjoy dissecting it, as in literature...

And of course the underlying argument is whether or not it's reasonable to apply your own ethics to the rest of your life, and then leave culture as a glaring exception...
 
 
Pingle!Pop
20:33 / 10.05.04
No, what I mean is that Jester clearly enjoys WASP, otherwise she wouldn't go. And if she was offended by WASP then she wouldn't enjoy their music, and therefore probably wouldn't go.

Ah... you see, I'd have gone by the opposite assumption: she must be offended by WASP, otherwise she wouldn't start this thread.

But, yes, as she says, it's a little less black and white than that. Would the entire works of [insert band you love here] become unenjoyable if they inserted unironically into the middle of one of their songs something along the lines of, "Allgayfemaleortrans****ersorothersuchfreaksshoulddie!". I'd personally be more than a bit ambivalent if a band I otherwise loved were broadcasting such views to their audience.

Along the lines of what SMS says above, by going to such a band's gigs, is one endorsing their viewpoint, even if unintentionally? Surely if a band garners a ten-thousand person audience, it gives the impression to some extent that whatever they're saying is acceptable.

Again: possibly more later, but I, er, need to go get (more) drunk and dance around now.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:02 / 10.05.04
Along the lines of what SMS says above, by going to such a band's gigs, is one endorsing their viewpoint, even if unintentionally? Surely if a band garners a ten-thousand person audience, it gives the impression to some extent that whatever they're saying is acceptable.

Well, acceptable to those ten thousand people, anyway... Being in an audience tends to suggest admiration and support, perhaps unfairly. Another element, of course, is the capital. You may or may not want to endorse their viewpoint when attending their gig, or buying their CD, but you are helping to provide them with the resources and the platform to continue to express their opinions, but also to continue to make and propagate their music. Without support, both become more difficult...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:05 / 11.05.04
The culture that we live in is inherently sexist. I think that eventually we have to accept that the majority of women are prepared to adopt a man's surname and not even examine the action, so we might as well listen to whatever the hell we feel like.

If you're seriously going to eliminate sexism then it helps if women address the relics of patriarchy as they are and not as they want them to be.
 
 
not ready yet
21:40 / 13.05.04
No, you probably shouldn't go to those gigs. But not going and but not saying anything doesn't help either. Better go to the gig and stand outside letting people know how you feel.

Then go inside and enjoy the music.

I'm so very, very unhelpful. Sorry.
 
 
Char Aina
04:19 / 22.05.04
it might be fair to have mentioned that those were spinal tap lyrics, and quite HUGELY extracting the fluid waste.

"whats wrong wth being sexy?" and all that.

you are helping to provide them with the resources and the platform to continue to express their opinions, but also to continue to make and propagate their music.

i think the crux of it is that jester likes the product, just not entirely. if the band were unable to continue their career they would not only present no more offensive songs, but no more songs at all.
a compromise position whereby ze financially supports their musical stylings without supporting their views would seem impossible.

the only realistic compromise i can see is within jester hirself; ze can choose to ignore those lyrics that offend. it wont always work and it isnt easy, but i do it with some hip hop and it does allow me to enjoy what there is of value without arguing with myself about what there is which is not.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:50 / 22.05.04
Mod hat - I've moved the above passage (the lyrics of the Spinal Tap song "Bitch School", so toksik still makes sense) for deletion, primarily because it's not adding anything to the discussion except the need for a long scroll down. More information to be found in the wiki.
 
 
Cat Chant
14:36 / 22.05.04
should I give up 'cock rock'?

This kind of argument tends to get polarized fairly quickly into the "Laura Mulvey" argument (the pleasure that sexist culture gives us is part of what enables sexist culture to survive, and thus we should [a] deny ourselves such pleasures and [b] create new forms of art which create different forms of pleasure in the audience) vs the "Hedonism" argument (sexism is all about denying pleasure to women, why join in with them and give up the few remaining pleasures you have?). Both sides seem to be fairly obviously inadequate and must be missing the point somehow, but I'm never quite sure how to reformulate this problem in order to get at something like an adequate solution...

Incidentally, I'm a bit confused by the dates and names in your first post, Jester - Jane Austen wrote in the early/mid 1800s, didn't she? It has nothing to do with your argument, so I don't mean to make a huge point out of it - I'm just wondering whether there's one of those brainjams there and you actually meant someone else who did write in ca. 1924? Or did you mean "40 years after"?

(Sorry for crap post, am trying to dabble my toes back in the Headshop, will contribute something helpful eventually. I hope.)
 
 
Jester
17:35 / 22.05.04
Deva: sorry, i don't have a head for dates i have no idea what I meant anymore, but it's not exactly central, you're right...

i think the main point for me is that it's hard to make a black and white distinction. There are things which we have all collectively put beyond the bounds of the reasonable - for example 'blacking up', or most racist culture.

For some reason with sexist culture there seems to be not the same aversion to it. Anyway, my basic dilemma is that there ARE things I won't partake in for reasons of priciple, so why am I not extending that to everything?

And, of course, when you take that to its conclusion you are left with a rather uncomfortable and closed situation where you are only prepared to tolerate culture that sufficiently mimics your own values. Which seems wrong...
 
 
Jester
17:41 / 22.05.04
the only realistic compromise i can see is within jester hirself; ze can choose to ignore those lyrics that offend. it wont always work and it isnt easy, but i do it with some hip hop and it does allow me to enjoy what there is of value without arguing with myself about what there is which is not.

Yes. Actually, it's only when it becomes REALLY obvious that it makes me actually uncomfortable enough not to listen to something. Like, there is this vicious skid row song with the lyrics (not in full ):

'You're standin' to close what the fuck's with you
You ain't my old lady and you ain't a tattoo
No need to whimper no need to shout
This party s over so get the fuck out
Get the fuck out


Putting aside the poor quality of the lyrics, they're pretty fucking repellant to the extent where I don't want to listen to um. Maybe it's my own internalisation that means I'm quite happy to listen to their silly-but-not-actually-offensive song 'youth gone wild', for example...
 
 
Cat Chant
07:30 / 23.05.04
Mod hat: I have moved the above post for deletion. It consisted of the Doug Antony All Stars satirical poem "Oh Lesbian Oh Mother", which you can find here, should you want to.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:16 / 23.05.04
Very briefly - Lord Morgue, this is not the place for posting lyrics. See the wiki for a bit more on this, but the short version is that the Head Shop is for posts which have had some thought put into them, rather than a google search. Keep doing this and we'll probably just have to assume that you are trolling. Meanwhile, because nobody leaves here unhappy, try these threads for a friendlier reception:

The lyrics of your life

The lyrics of your life, rendered other by deletion and/or transposition

The constructively misheard lyrics of your life

The Half Man Half Biscuit lyrics of your life
 
 
Lord Morgue
11:59 / 24.05.04
Well now, I could posit that such a conundrum is symptomatic of a repressive dominant patriarchal paradigm, I could point such a inner conflict out as a classic example of what psychophysical pioneer Moshe Feldenkrais would call "cross-motivation", I could explain it in Freudian terms as a conflict between the Id, which just wants something to rock out to, the Ego, which only cares what others think of your musical choice, and the Superego, which is the one worrying about the ethical implications of your musical choice (and then there's the Ego posing as the Superego, wanting to appear "more ethical than thou"), I could make reference to Hermann Hesse's conclusion in "Treatise on the Steppenwolf" that we are all legion, and thus can contradict ourselves, I could mention my own personal approach, based on Fritjof Capra's Bootstrap Philosophy, that allows me to hold several differing paradigms simultaneously without conflict, but it always seems to come out GIRLS GOT COOTIES!!!
Sigh. Sorry, I'm really at that point in my life where I shouldn't be projecting my father onto every feminist I meet. But being raised by a psychotic rapist male feminazi drunken abusive hippy conspiracy nut who tries to beat you and hypnotise you into being a bisexual vegan socialist animal liberationist will leave you with issues. Did I mention he took the Illuminatus books deadly seriously? I kind of ended up hating everybody on all sides and being some kind of militant Daoist. Do you forgive me?
I guess I really do have some possibly helpful observations on-topic, beyond just stirring.
What always used to get me was black kids I knew who liked Guns N' Roses, despite some truly vile racist lyrics. And then there's the racist kids who like Public Enemy, as TISM said. Try and figure out Leni Refenstahl, who shot "Triumph of the Spirit" for Hitler, then spent the rest of her life filmatically expressing her love of big black men. I just think the human animal is either too complex, or too stupid, to be consistant. Meanwhile that Guns N' Roses pinball game calls to me with it's siren song, but I will resist! Unless someone leaves a free credit in there.
 
 
Ex
19:59 / 24.05.04
Both sides seem to be fairly obviously inadequate and must be missing the point somehow, but I'm never quite sure how to reformulate this problem in order to get at something like an adequate solution...

Clare Whatling goes for a 'somewhere between' argument suggesting that if women like sexist cultural products, they're probably reworking them in interesting and creative ways. This gets round the idea that you're placing yourself (or worse, being passively placed) in objectionable viewing positions, identifying with the sexist twerp intended viewer. It also avoids the gung-ho 'don't piss on my parade' hedonist approach by acknowledging that these are problematc pleasures, which possibly don't 'dent' the sexist texts you're reworking. Her main example is lesbian readings of films which were probably marketed as straight-girl buddy-movies.

She says that appropriative readings are a survival trait without which various non-, under- or badly-representated groups wouldn't be as perky and adaptable as they are.

Mind you, her best example of something which is sexist but able to be enjoyed for its subversive or transgressive elements is lesbian vampire movies, and who doesn't like lesbian vampires?

And her argument only covers a few of the queries raised up-thread - it doesn't really take into accounts the funding of sexist projects through revenue from frantically reworking appropriating lesbian fans. There's work that needs to be done to explain where personal pleasure and political activism; they're connected but not the same thing, I think.

More sense on this later, when I'm not supposed to be locking the library.
 
 
Cat Chant
09:06 / 25.05.04
Ex - those (predictably enough) were sort of the lines I was thinking along, thanks for clarifying. There's two responses I want to make but... (looks at time) oh shit, I can't. Apologies - placeholder post to remind self: Susan Sorbo and relative centrality of gender (vs race) in conceptual apparatus of cultural artefacts.
 
 
Lord Morgue
09:45 / 25.05.04
I can enjoy someone's work even if I personally dislike them, I do find I'll enjoy even crap if it's made by someone I like, but if someone's beliefs are anathema, I really can't get into their work. Even if I enjoyed their work before, it just curdles for me after I find out some unpleasant fact about them. I even have a problem with John Lennon after he helped fund the I.R.A., and Bob Marley after I heard an old interview where he basically said the starving Ethiopians can go to hell because they aren't Rastafarian. H.P. Lovecraft I can stand, because he finally overcame his prejudices later in life, so I can take his more obnoxious work in perspective, Robert E. Howard can be rougher going, antisemetic in parts, but at least he seemed to have a respect for black people, which put him above most people of his time.
One guy I really went off, though, was webcartonist R.H. Junior, after I read this drivel in his Livejournal-
Well, O.K., LJ seems to be down, but he talks the same crap all over the net:
Google search for rhjunior and gay
Bear in mind these are FURRIES critiquing GAYS. Bet they'd rather be screwing their dogs- of the opposite sex, of course.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
09:57 / 25.05.04
Again, sorry to hit and run, but Deva, another useful perspective on female/feminist/feminine culture consumption is provided by Angela McRobbie (Feminism and Youth Culture).

Collection of examinations of various intersections of female consumptions and pop culture. She again tends to see part of her feminist project as to look for/find the potential expansions/perversions that take place when women appropriate 'male' cultural products, as well as examining how young women's peer cultures differ and cross over with mens'.
 
 
Lord Morgue
10:22 / 25.05.04
Which of course will then be "appropriated" by drag queens, natch.
 
 
Ex
13:16 / 25.05.04
if someone's beliefs are anathema, I really can't get into their work. Even if I enjoyed their work before, it just curdles for me after I find out some unpleasant fact about them.

I, on the other other hand, find it alarming that I'm prepared to dig up any number of explanations for my favourite artists/writer/musicians that I find unutterably flawed when applied to people I already dislike. I feel it's like rationalising frantically to get 'friends' off the hook.
For example, I shun the Eminem exemption clause ('he's in character, he just explores a lot of flawed, homophobic characters in his work, it's all about multiple selves'). However, I'm quite prepared to argue that the Tiger Lilies are playing with character, performance and role in elaborate ways, even after the fifteenth song about transexual sex working amputee sailor-chasers.
I'm not sure if this is a really dodgy bit of disavowal, or if I'm sincere in believing that the one is a plausible explanation and the other (Mr Shady) is a shoddy excuse.

At the bottom of this discussion (I think) there's an often-assumed series of connections between each stage of the process:

The creator's beliefs > are perfectly communicated through the product/song/book and > understood by the audience > who approve.

I see this as clearly untrue - thoughts don't go straight from an artist's head into their work, and then get sucked up by the heads of the audience without any transformation. There are breakdowns and subversions at every stage of the process.

What makes me think I may be in advanced denial is that I find myself getting more simplistic and dogmatic about the links when I dislike someone more (eg "X is homophobic so if you like X's music you're all bad"). Then I use a more nuanced understanding, involving roles, interpretation, appropriation and reader response theory to dig me out of the hole where I'm standing with my Auteurs CD.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:28 / 25.05.04
Ex, I'm not sure it's a bad hole to be in.

I have to say that I instinctively distrust anybody who claims to only enjoy art the politics and ethics of which is entirely in keeping with their own. In the first place, I consider it an essentially impossible task: to believe that you can do this seems to imply an 100% infallible Dodgy Ideology Detector. Which is foolish and arrogant in at least two ways: 1) nobody's that alert and observant ALL the time, 2) nobody's that immune to the insidious seductions of dodginess (or, to put it less sexily, nobody's that aware of their own blind-spots, nobody's that right-on that they don't have unexamined assumptions that undermine their own political convictions, however sincere).

Secondly, I don't think it makes for very good art, or very good politics. Which is to say, if you get caught in a loop whereby everything you hear or see is only reinforcing the ideas/beliefs you already have, mental and creative stagnation is bound to result. Now, I want to qualify this by saying that I know this argument strays awfully near to the "Aha! My misogynistic/racist twaddle is something like a mindbomb-enon to you safe, set-in-your-ways PC liberals!" claim. Lord knows that I'd never try to justify that.

But... Here's an example of the kind of thing I'm trying to get at. When the stridently feminist, queer-friendly, lefty pinko band Le Tigre play their song 'Hot Topic' live, they usually have a slideshow which projects images of various people, albums, books etc which have influence and inspired them. One of these is Public Enemy's It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back. Now, you might well ask Le Tigre what they thought of the idea that Public Enemy's music contains sexist and anti-semitic messages, or that Chuck D has made remarks in interviews which can be interpreted as homophobic. Although they would probably point out that the conservative white media has an agenda in concentrating on and exaggerating these elements in Public Enemy's politics at the expense of and in order to discredit their central message of black radicalism, Le Tigre would probably also concede that those elements were present. But on balance, those elements are not enough to make them, or myself, think that the existence of Public Enemy is anything other than a cause for huge, rowdy celebration. Equally, Le Tigre themselves have run into trouble for allegedly supporting transphobic music festivals, and for handling the issue of race insensitively, and there must exist people who think that these criticisms are accurate, but not enough to outweigh either the quality of the band's music or the positive effect of their politics in general.

So sometimes the good stuff outweighs the bad. What's important is that you don't deny the bad stuff that's there. But how this 'bad stuff' manifests itself may result in different responses. To take a slightly different example: various dubious things Grant Morrison has said in interviews (the hilarity of rape jokes and the feeble nature of those who are offended by such hilarity, etc) do not really detract from my enjoyment of Seaguy, but they DO probably prevent me from seeing Morrison as quite the hero/idol that some others do. If there was a rape scene played for laughs in the comic, that would be a different matter.

God, I could go on for ever here. I haven't even got onto "what happens when the political content of the art is almost totally oppressive, but it has aesthetic value - can it, or was Keats right all along?" - which for some people might be back where we started... Gotta come back to this. I hope tbis post wasn't total self-indulgent rambling.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:38 / 25.05.04
(offtopic) I was sure you were going to bring up Morrisey then but you avoided the hot topic.
 
 
Ex
15:51 / 28.05.04
Yes, these are all terribly good points, with which I agree. Sorry for confusion: I wasn't complaining so much that my own taste for dodgy artists leaves me in a big ethical hole; it is, as you point out, a spacious and charmingly decorated hole.
It was more the fact that I'm far more likely to use all the arguments you make to defend (to myself) liking the things I like, then insist on a very literal artist>audience relationship for things I don't like. The 'liking' seems more instinctual and the rationale patchily applied. (e.g. I would bring in complex theories of reader reception to defend my liking bits of Morrissey. However, a debate I was reading recently around whether Michael Jackson albums should be re-released if he is convicted of child abuse left me cold. I couldn't summon indignation at the confusion of artist and content because I didn't like the music.)

Possibly that kind of bad faith isn't widespread enough to justify my derailing the thread to parade my angst.

I feel there are some interesting points to add to the first point on SMatthewStolte's list ('First is the potential impact that exposing yourself to sexism will have on you') about survival and representation in culture. You can be in a situation where if you never enjoyed or appropriated anything sexist, and never picked thing buffet-style from the mess of offensive cultural products, then you'd be utterly starved of culture and of (admittedly crappy) images of yourself. Of course, there's a case for starving, and then pointing out your starvation in loud, ticked off tones, or creating something else. But in the meantime, I think it could be the damaging flipside to the 'exposure' SMatthewStolte mentions.

A simplistic example would be that most pop music is about girl-boy jiggling, but without pop music the modern urban lesbian and gay scene would fall flat on its arse. You could say that everyone involved is ingesting a huge slice of self-loathing weekly, but they're also using the music to dance, congregate, express desire and build confidence.

Similarly, approrpiative and selective readings of films, TV, books etc show me how to be a person. And how to conduct relationships. A lot of it's truly awful, but the snippets that aren't help me to do these things.

Do the various underdogs of [insert]-ist culture draw things from that culture that ultimately support them so they can have a good crack at that culture?

I'm undecided and welcome input. Just chuck it down the hole to me.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:38 / 28.05.04
Do the various underdogs of [insert]-ist culture draw things from that culture that ultimately support them so they can have a good crack at that culture?

Oh God yes - I genuinely believe this is the secret of the universe - please someone give me money so I can write a book about it.

And I completely got what you were saying about bad faith - the above was mostly a lead in to what I wanted to say about that - argh - no time - will come back
 
 
grant
16:57 / 28.05.04
Do the various underdogs of [insert]-ist culture draw things from that culture that ultimately support them so they can have a good crack at that culture?

Oh God yes - I genuinely believe this is the secret of the universe - please someone give me money so I can write a book about it.


This is something I know I've mentioned before in here -- there's actually theory on this. It came up in some damn grad school class of mine around '92, and was based on a biological model of organisms that take on qualities of their predators (even, like, glomming molten carapaces or feathers or whatnot onto their bodies).
I can't remember the biological term, I can't even remember the theorist who was applying it to culture (although I suspect if not Deleuze & Guattari, then one of their fans/followers).

But the concept is out there. If you find it, please let me know.
 
 
Ex
18:55 / 30.05.04
[threadrot in admiration]
Bloody hell. That's excellent: like cultural studies crossed with Mimic.
[/rot]
 
 
Ex
19:38 / 30.05.04
Sorry - a bit more thought.
Yes, and now I think slightly harder, I've usually thought that. The relationships between cultures and subcultures, particularly, seems porous and appropriative, to me. I was reading Unpacking Queer Politics recently. (Don't. Really, unless you have something strong and soothing standing by.) The author Sheila Jeffrey's overall complaint seemed to be that lesbian culture was being influenced by gay male culture and heterosexual mainstream culture. I sympathise that it's terribly hard to develop a supportive culture for queer women, and that queer women tend to get loaded with exploitative, negative crap from a load of sources. But Jeffreys seemed to think that it was possibly, desirable and necessary to section off lesbian culture and for lesbians to come up with absolutely everything for themselves. Music, erotic communication, styles of sexual engagement, social interractions... From scratch, by lesbians, for lesbians. And I'm not saying that lesbians could not do so if they wished - they have the technology, they can produce entertainment and forms of living and erotic styles - but I'm not sure that should be a requirement, or even the best thing for an overworked subculture to be attempting. Appropriating and borrowing things from other cultures buffet-style seems like a good way of cutting down the amount of time you have to spend hackign out the basics. If another subculture has come up with an interesting way of socialising - do you just ruefully sigh, turn your head and say 'No, chaps, it all looks terribly fun, but we have to grow our own'?

I know this conflict between home-grown subcultures and 'borrowing' stuff isn't new - it's presumably a big cultural feminist thing. And the idea of developing women's culture interests me, but I don't think it need be hermetically sealed. I don't think any culture works like that, especially when you're talking about a chunk of the population (women) who are really widely distributed - geographically, ethnically, in age terms, in all terms. Jeffreys sees contamination where I see cross-fertilisation (although even as I write that, I'm aware that gay male culture and straight culture 'learn'/take a lot less from dyke culture than the other way round).

(Then Jeffreys lays into SM, trans issues, drag kings and queer theory. I had to buy chocolate cheesecake just to reassure me there were still good things in the world.)

So that hopefully links back to how one can enjoy/ignore/rewrite sexist culture, although it's wandering off into group dynamics rather than individual motivations.
 
 
Saturn's nod
11:13 / 03.08.06
I think the concept discussed above is Batesian mimicry, in case anyone was still looking. (Some biology lesson notes, another summary of widely accepted biological mimicry types).

I too think it's relevant to cultural hacks. I was aware that a graduation ceremony I underwent symbolized conferrment of membership of a very sexist bulwark of white supremacy, but they didn't make us promise to uphold it. My cohort were explicit in our decisions to accept our honours out of respect for our fore-sisters who were denied the ones they earned, and to dedicate our privilege into dismantling the weapons that uphold the nested dominance hierarchies of oppression. I have privilege by virtue of my membership of the institution now, and that makes me able to use the power, the wider access & better platform, in work I believe to be subversive.

Maintenance of the will to do subversive work despite the institution's hazing was painful & emotionally costly - demonstrating the defensive/immune function of hazing in the insitutional organism - but my determination to dismantle the structural mechanisms of oppression was reinforced and supported by my friends. I believe it is possible to use the masters' tools to dismantle the masters' house, but only if they are thoroughly washed first.
 
 
alas
17:14 / 03.08.06
Jeffreys sees contamination where I see cross-fertilisation (although even as I write that, I'm aware that gay male culture and straight culture 'learn'/take a lot less from dyke culture than the other way round).

Or, is it that, in some cases, not so much that the subordinate culture is not "learned" from or doesn't have a lot "taken" from it, but it's that the subordinate culture has to "cite" its borrowings from the dominant one, pay for the goods it uses, whereas the dominant culture can use the subordinate one as a kind of "natural resource" and not "pay" for its borrowings, i.e., "takings"? Is it the economics that's the problem and the asymmetrical rules, rather than the degree of giving and taking?

But I'm very interested in your use of that word "contamination." I've been playing for some years with the idea that the desire for purity is itself always (yes, I think pretty much always?) a kind of violence, and then along comes Kwame Anthony Appiah's argument against notions of cultural purity and in favor of a kind of modest cosmpolitanism. Here's his conclusion, which quotes one of the wisest lines ever, from Terence, and provides an interesting context for it:

Our guide to what is going on here might as well be a former African slave named Publius Terentius Afer, whom we know as Terence. Terence, born in Carthage, was taken to Rome in the early second century B.C., and his plays - witty, elegant works that are, with Plautus's earlier, less-cultivated works, essentially all we have of Roman comedy - were widely admired among the city's literary elite. Terence's own mode of writing - which involved freely incorporating any number of earlier Greek plays into a single Latin one - was known to Roman littérateurs as "contamination."

It's an evocative term. When people speak for an ideal of cultural purity, sustaining the authentic culture of the Asante or the American family farm, I find myself drawn to contamination as the name for a counterideal. Terence had a notably firm grasp on the range of human variety: "So many men, so many opinions" was a line of his. And it's in his comedy "The Self-Tormentor" that you'll find what may be the golden rule of cosmopolitanism - Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto; "I am human: nothing human is alien to me." The context is illuminating. A busybody farmer named Chremes is told by his neighbor to mind his own affairs; the homo sum credo is Chremes's breezy rejoinder. It isn't meant to be an ordinance from on high; it's just the case for gossip. Then again, gossip - the fascination people have for the small doings of other people - has been a powerful force for conversation among cultures.

The ideal of contamination has few exponents more eloquent than Salman Rushdie, who has insisted that the novel that occasioned his fatwa "celebrates hybridity, impurity, intermingling, the transformation that comes of new and unexpected combinations of human beings, cultures, ideas, politics, movies, songs. It rejoices in mongrelisation and fears the absolutism of the Pure. Mélange, hotch-potch, a bit of this and a bit of that is how newness enters the world." No doubt there can be an easy and spurious utopianism of "mixture," as there is of "purity" or "authenticity." And yet the larger human truth is on the side of contamination - that endless process of imitation and revision.

A tenable global ethics has to temper a respect for difference with a respect for the freedom of actual human beings to make their own choices. That's why cosmopolitans don't insist that everyone become cosmopolitan. They know they don't have all the answers. They're humble enough to think that they might learn from strangers; not too humble to think that strangers can't learn from them. Few remember what Chremes says after his "I am human" line, but it is equally suggestive: "If you're right, I'll do what you do. If you're wrong, I'll set you straight."


Appiah argues that much of cultural change for the better has to do with just getting used to the presence of "others" and so I think would agree with Saturn's Nod's revision of Audre Lorde, I believe it is possible to use the masters' tools to dismantle the masters' house, but only if they are thoroughly washed first.

But I've also been thinking about this metaphor for a long time. I think it does need to be tempered with thought and a dash of awareness that, like Flyboy eloquently said above, we all have blindspots. Even as we critique others, we retain them.

I'm not sure that tools dismantle the master's house, at all, or that dismantling, and the quicker the better, is the goal. The more I think about this metaphor in a literal sense, thinking about the way bombs blow up houses in Iraq in order to create "freedom," thinking about how, in order to kill a "terrorist" for this abstract goal, we have to accept a whole lot of "collateral damage," I wonder: should we be wanting to "dismantle" houses? And if so, how?

Do we know who else, besides the much maligned "master" lives in the house? To what degree *can* they all be held responsible for the goings on there? If we blow up the house and all its contents, will the others (animals, kids, workers, etc.), and maybe even the master, be able to make any kind of a life? Is our job to torture him with homelessness as some kind of expiation for his sins? If we feel even a bit tenderly to him in a homeless state, if we are aware of the fact that loss feels different for all humans from the other human experience of never having had something in the first place in complex ways, are we just sell outs?

No matter how "pure" our intentions, will we be able to communicate at all with any of the inhabitants if we've simply blown up the house? If we've blown it up and walked away? Does that matter?

Or is my idea of 'blowing up' the house itself an assumption built on a "master's" way of doing things? Is "dismantling" the house, carefully, lovingly, some kind of real alternative? Using the bits to create better houses? With "clean" tools? Or?

I want to say something about listening and talking back, "setting [the other] straight" as Terence's character says. The hardest thing about mass culture being that it's very difficult to talk back to and be HEARD, making us feel like the only way we can be heard is by "blowing things up," literally or metaphorically.
 
  
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