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Monkeys around the dinner table.

 
 
Christoph_Chicken
23:31 / 08.05.04
Here is an excerpt, from my thoughts scribbled down :



I can feel the rot setting in. The rats are leaving; the salt is crusting on my lips.

With less and less confidence, I sail into the ocean that is humanity, the world and all its inhabitants.

Do others notice that we aren’t anything other than well evolved simians? Our group structure seems still to reflect that of the animal world. Subconscious politicking…... or is it?

The question I have is: Do the others in the ‘social’ group notice the same things that I do? Are the ‘leaders’ as aware of the way people react to them as I am, or do they simply have the confidence to harness the animal magic that is occurring around them? Are they just ignorant… and therefore immune?

The harmonies of a group of people disturb me… they oscillate, and vibrate around each other… echoing each action – responding to the pack…. Dancing with each other…watching, observing, performing….interacting. Some hive of social dynamics buzzing around me….. how can they…. You all.. Interact like this when it’s so obvious what is going on…?

Am I under-evolved..some kind of post missing link monkey? If I were more advanced …..would I not be worried about these things? Merely take them on board whilst thinking and communicating with my undistracted brain?….would I have more streamlined and economical branches of thought?



Any comments would be appreciated and read with interest.
 
 
espy
22:19 / 09.05.04
I feel mostly the same - do people just ignore the higher questions and just go on with their lives...? Why? Is there something wrong with me, or is it them?

Honestly, I think there is only a small percentage of people in this world that think like that...that take the third person perspective and try to see everything.

Sometimes I feel like I am better than them, and I act egotistical (inside my mind) and say that since I am "different" then I'm better... other times I think they have it easier.

It's hard for me to answer your questions - as I have the same. Thanks for letting me know there's at least another person like this (although they type it out much more poetically)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:49 / 10.05.04
Mod hat: If this thread is purposed as an opportunity for the enlightened ones to worry about how superior they are to the common herd, I'll suggest moving it to the Conversation, where more enlightened ones will be likely to see it and share their own experiences. If it's staying in the Head Shop, I'd suggest a more abstract approach. Like, why not start by asking yourself what exactly it may be that is supposed to distinguish human beings from animals - tool use? A sense of self? Morality? A soul? Free will? Then, discuss how valid it may be to use those as distinctors.

Thank you for your attention.
 
 
Christoph_Chicken
11:11 / 10.05.04
Espy: you took it the wrong way... The thread was intended to be read as quite the opposite. My concern is that I am inferior to the common herd.

While I spend my time noting the group dynamics, others simply get on and enjoy the social. The question was, do those individuals also see the structure, and rise above or utilise it, or are they so at home that they fail to recognise it, and are therefore unhindered by it.

I am hindered by it. Am I the monkey at the dinner table?


Tanntamount: I thought that this might be covered by Identity politics, sorry if I posted off-topic. I'll try to change the summary to something more suitable, if you feel it should be moved then it probably should be. )
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:31 / 10.05.04
No worries, o_0_o - I think this is certainly a thread that could belong in the Head Shop; I just felt that if it was going to follow espy's approach it would flourish better in the Conversation.

So, bakc to your post:

Dancing with each other…watching, observing, performing….interacting.

I'm slightly confusedhere - the more evolved people perform these functions, right? But are these defined as primate functions, or as more evolved functions? That is, are you underevolved because you have not got those (human) abilities, or are you underevolved because your primate social interaction rotuines are not sufficiently advanced to keep up with other humans?

More generally, how would you characterise the differences between yourself, ordinary humans and other primates?
 
 
sdv (non-human)
11:54 / 10.05.04
Review this: http://www.leftcurve.org/LC28WebPages/WisWar.html

it contains a nice outline of Universal History.... which is relevant.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:26 / 10.05.04
I'm afraid I can't access that website, sdv. Could you give me a breakdown of its contents, with any citations you find germaine, and then tell us how you react to and interpret the information contained therein, and what it means for the questions about what constitutes humanity that are popping up in this thread?

Cheers.
 
 
Christoph_Chicken
13:49 / 10.05.04
the more evolved people perform these functions, right? But are these defined as primate functions, or as more evolved functions?


Well, in the way I was looking at things, they are both.


The original idea was that our brains have been built up, layer upon layer as we evolved as a species. So, supposedly at some point in our past, we as individuals were much more aware of visual posturing, cries for attention, grunts of dominance.

As we have reached the 21st centaury, this form of communication has fallen somewhat by the wayside.. or perhaps more accurately it has become assimilated into our unconscious, as walking becomes unconscious once a child can.

I find myself acutely aware of this form of group politics. The way people sit, the differing reactions the group makes to different members... or non-members... those junior and those senior. Eye contact, body language.... even that being exhibited by myself.... a direct challenge, an admission of subservience a show of love.

are you underevolved because you have not got those (human) abilities, or are you underevolved because your primate social interaction rotuines are not sufficiently advanced to keep up with other humans?

I do possess these (human) abilities, I too dance, watch, interact etc. I can also understand what is going on... so I don't think I'm lacking in 'primate social interaction' routines. I just find it hard to imagine that other people can act as they do if they can see this social pantomime.


So,

a. Am I under-evolved.. do I perceive what others simply take on board sub-consciously because they have reached the next step... they have learnt to 'walk'?

b. Alternatively, am I dysfunctional... do other people notice exactly the same things that I do, and are simply able to understand and use them to their advantage?

c. Are the above questions asking the same thing?

I have tried explaining these ideas to other monkeys in the real jungle, and have generally met with large bunches of bananas. I think I simply wanted to know if other people had made similar observations or have similar feelings

As you may gather, I might not be the easiest person to talk to, I might start picking things out of your hair at any given moment.


I read that page SDV, and found it interesting. I especially like the fusing of religion and the 'beast'... however I didn't manage to see the relevance? Are you suggesting that I need to kill things?
 
 
Nobody's girl
14:40 / 10.05.04
I love watching our simian nature assert itself in human interaction. I people watch asking myself questions like-
Who's the alpha male/female in this group? This person is giving off submissive body language, why are they in this position?
Like the whole 23 thing, once you start looking for it- it's EVERYWHERE. But also like the 23 thing in that you've got to remember it's an aspect of the whole story which you have decided to pick out, which in itself is really more indicative of your own perspectives and headspace than anything.

Still, I find it hilarious when people try to convince themselves that humans are in some way elevated from animals. Spend 5 minutes pretending to be David Attenborough watching ape behaviour at closing time on a Saturday night (it's usually territorial stuff), I find it becomes startlingly clear how simian we are.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
15:24 / 10.05.04
Ok – just to synthesize and extract elements of the link and why the link I misposted on the site is relevant. Where Deleuze and Guattari take the Universal history project forward using Mumford and Dumezil from the moment of the first industrial revolution and the invention of the State (see ATP and AO)dated around 10,000 ago. The weblink I posted touches on the enormous pre-history placing human beings firmly in our history of animalness, relating us directly to being dinner for the predecessors of George the Cat.

I quote: “Barbara Ehrenreich discovered that what applied to our pre-human ancestors was equally true of our human forebears. Right up until the end of the last Ice Age, approximately 12,000 years ago, human beings were routinely killed and eaten by predator beasts, such as lions, tigers, leopards, cheetahs, etc. The evidence for this unpalatable fact, which has accumulated since the 1980s, is now overwhelming and indisputable. Somehow the human race managed to collectively forget its long-time status as catfood. “

and

“ Homo sapiens is the only species ever to have transformed from prey to predator. Though our hominid ancestors relied on meat for the protein they needed for their big brains, they didn't know how to bring down the big game all around them. Thus they had to acquire their meat largely by scavenging the kills of other animals. According to anthropologist Lewis Binford, it wasn't until about 70,000 years ago that humans learned to hunt, and even then it was more like herding than what we think of as hunting today. By the Upper Paleolithic, around 30,000 BP (before present), humans had become highly skilled hunters. Though the tools they forged were later used in warfare, for millennia the men who wielded these weapons used them to hunt animals, not each other...”

The argument is that warfare developed out of the extraordinary success of the castes of men who used weapons to defend themselves form George's predecessors...

"There are many signs of the practice of war in prehistory, but they only go back so far. After 12,000 BP, the evidence is seemingly everywhere. Prior to 12,000 BP, there's nothing - no drawings of soldiers on cave walls, no spear points embedded in human skeletons - nothing of any kind. Though long believed to be an expression of an inherently violent human nature, war is a cultural product with a very definite beginning in time. Triggered by a combination of overhunting and climate change at the end of the Ice Age, warfare came in the wake of widespread devastation of not only grass-eating herd species but the predators that fed on them.13 According to historian Lewis Mumford, the warrior band was the flip-side of the hunting band. In all the earliest literature, great warriors are also accomplished hunters. Ehrenreich explains the relationship between hunting and war in her 1997 book, Blood Rites: Origins and History of the Passions of War:
With the decline of wild predator and game populations, there would have been little to occupy the males who had specialized in hunting and anti-predator defense, and no well-trodden route to the status of "hero." What saved the hunter-defender male from obsolescence or a life of agricultural toil was the fact that he possessed weapons and the skills to use them. Mumford suggests that the hunter-defender preserved his status by turning to a kind of "protection racket": pay him (with food and social standing) or be subject to his predations....”

It isn't necessary to accept the totality of Ehrenreich's position to recognise the validity and interest of the Universal History work. It's worth adding that I think that only through being aware of our complete animalness can we make the advances necessary to eradicate the nastiness that produces 'heros'. On the plane of difference one singularity has no greator value than another...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:14 / 10.05.04
Thanks very much. Now, to look at the tendency of the human to create heroes - is this a uniquely human piece of social construction? How does it differ from, say, the bull male in a herd animal? Only in terms of reach?


The person you're quoting on this one, I think, is quoting Brecht, but Brecht himself was aware that the constructions necessary for his world to function required some people to be more important than others, even if those people were imaginary. Which brings us back to animal patterns of interaction. It sounds to me, to nip back to Uncle Berthold, that what o_0_o is suffering is not so much a shortage of unselfconsciousness through the awareness of our animal ancestry as a dose of good old fashioned alienation, which as manifesting itself through a Semonidean approach to humanity. It's like the guy after the NLP workshop who sees everything as NLP - a reflection of our ability and desire to identify patterns. Now, whether *that* is a way to distinguish us from other animals physiologically like us, I don't know...
 
 
TeN
20:24 / 10.05.04
I once saw a documentary on Jane Goodall, and there was one scene where the narrator discussed her witnessing a "war" between two groups of apes (what is that called anyway? herd? tribe? clan?). The apes from one group would attack the other group, and not even attempt to fight the adults, but take the young and smash their heads against the rocks. This in essence destroyed the next generation of apes, eventually wiping out the entire community. That got me thinking... how is that any different from a human war? We think we're so advanced because we have missles and guns and atomic bombs, but is that really all that far removed from smashing the heads of the enemies' children against rocks?
 
 
Nobody's girl
21:40 / 10.05.04
I don't like the way people always focus on the negative ape behaviour to compare with human ape behaviour.

How about Bonobo's? They fuck all the time but you never hear people comparing us with them, but check it out- we love to fuck too. After all, there's a populaion of 6 billion out there.
 
 
Christoph_Chicken
23:42 / 10.05.04
Brilliant.

"The species is best characterized as female-centered and egalitarian and as one that substitutes sex for aggression. Whereas in most other species sexual behaviour is a fairly distinct category, in the bonobo it is part and parcel of social relations--and not just between males and females. Bonobos engage in sex in virtually every partner combination (although such contact among close family members may be suppressed)."

Thanks Nobody's girl, I'm quite happy to be related to the Bonobos..

Tanntamont... I assume that the TLA "NLP" means "Neuro-Linguistic Programming"... I've had a look, and I think I take the point, already made by Nobody's Girl... that I am paying far to much heed to these interactions between people. This is something that I had observed, and yet unfortunately not something I have been able to remedy...

But then as I understand it, "one of the prerequisites of change is that I am responsible for my own healing and happiness".

So I'd appreciate it if you could enlighten me to the concept of "a Semonidean approach to humanity"... I'm afraid even the good old interweb has been little help to my understanding of this sentence....

SDV... As for heroes..

An interesting piece of fiction, is "Mythogo Wood" by Robert Holdstock. The book is based around the idea of 'Mythagos', ethereal characters who are 'created' by any group of people in need. For example, Robin Hood, King Arthur, the 'Hunter', 'warrior maiden'and various others. In the modern age, they have begun to disappear (needing woodland to be produced, y'see) but of course there is a patch of woodland left, and a family to be drawn into a magical world.... very good, if you like that sort of thing.

That is what I assume Hero means. I wouldn't have thought that the 'bull male' is assigned characteristics, communicated or even aspired towards within animal cultures. Isn't that what separates us from our animalistic counterparts? the facility for abstract thought?
 
 
sdv (non-human)
10:45 / 11.05.04
What i found interesting about the warfare and indeed the general UH approach to early human history is the way in which so many interesting things come into existence 12000 - 10000 years ago. The very events and things which Human cultures have used to dfferentiate themselvs from animals begin to appear at that moment; The first industrial revolution, the invention of the city/state, warfare, the heroic, what we recognise as mythology and so on. I don't have the texts to hand but I believe it was argued that the tendency to heirarchisation exploded at that point. To get to the point - the hero (and there really is no reason to regard them as necessarily masculine, obviously gender is irrelevant to the concept) exists because of the new events - warfare, mythology and the state - and that consequently animals do not suffer from this illusion because whilst they speak amoungst themselves, use technologies and engage in social struggles they have not up to now invented the state/warfare structures which seem to be necessary to invent the heroic.

If for example the kantian shift continues in Europe and expands it's possible to imagine that traditional heroic figures will no longer exist. After all we know when the 'hero' was first invented (12K years ago) and why - consequently we know it will disapear when it is no longer necessary. (No more Seigfried's slaughtering helpless dragons!!!)

As for the idea that something seperates us from our 'animalistic counterparts' - that is a common human error, there is no intellectual justification in believing that there is something that seperates humans from our fellow animals. We are merely animals.
 
 
Christoph_Chicken
13:47 / 11.05.04
Ever read The Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy series?


"It is an important and popular fact that things are not always what they seem. For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much - the wheel, New York, wars and so on - whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons."
 
 
espy
21:05 / 11.05.04
I don't think I took it the wrong way. I was considering the opposite as another view.
Now for me to go back to lurking. -.-
 
 
Ganesh
22:58 / 11.05.04
I suspect there are few individuals on the face of the planet who aren't aware of "animal-like group dynamics" - although perhaps only those who've had the chance to learn about animal social groupings would necessarily choose to conceptualise it as such. Even so, it's not an uncommon observation and, while it may have been considered scandalous back in Darwin's day (and had novelty value as recently as 1967), it's hardly startling stuff these days; on the contrary, it's a central tenet of the social sciences, and a popular media trope (in Western culture, anyway).

So no, I don't think the mere intellectual awareness of such a concept would, in and of itself, cause one to be socially disadvantaged. The way you've framed your question reminds me slightly of Bono, bless 'im, at the height of U2's 'zoo' phase, (over)using the motif of 'information overload'. One pictured the poor dear sitting paralysed in front of banked television monitors in his luxury hotel suite - while pretty much everyone else in the entire world just dealt with it. As, evidently, did Bono.

I'm guessing that's the answer to your question: most people deal with it. Sure, the animal stuff is still there, but it's become more sophisticated - or, at least, become a more complex dance around the array of overlapping/interacting social systems in which we live, both face-to-face and remote. The "visual posturing, cries for attention, grunts of dominance" translate fairly readily into the hierarchical gavotte of any online message-board...

... which, in turn, makes me wonder whether you aren't simply attempting to intellectually rationalise a tendency toward social detachment (for reasons other than being insufficiently 'evolved' - timidity, say, or even narcissism coupled with poor interpersonal skills) in a way which, while superficially appearing self-deprecatory, allows you to express a 'specialness' which alienates you from the rest of the "common herd".

So... my own hunch (based, admittedly, on relatively little) would be that you may well be failing to engage with your fellow humans for other reasons, and focussing on your woeful inability to be as unselfconsciously 'animal' as them may not be the way to go.
 
 
Nobody's girl
15:37 / 13.05.04
Ganesh, dude, that was harsh.
 
 
Ganesh
17:04 / 13.05.04
I think it was calling for a spot of harsh.
 
 
nidu713
18:42 / 13.05.04
Focusing on the animal-like group dynamics can be distracting, especially when this remains in the fore-front of consciousness while interacting in the group. But like all new information, the longer it remains as part of the overall system of thought, the older it gets, the more it fades into the mish-mash of factors that can be accounted for in daily situations.

As stated previously, this isn't a new concept, and people who have realized this in the past have fallen somewhere between (a) successfully integrating it into their consciousness matrix and continued being social animals, and (b) having become absolute recluses, their previous social behaviours and patterns crumbling under the pressure of the realization of this underlying dynamic.

Using the realization of this dynamic as a reason not to participate socially *could* be the result of an individual who currently doesn't have the tools or skill sets enabling them to integrate this new information into their social personality... forcing them into a state of inaction rather than a socially active participant.

Understanding this animal dynamic shouldn't hinder one from participating socially, but give the person an intelligent tool to allow them to participate more fully with outcomes that benifit the self and the group.
 
 
Christoph_Chicken
10:41 / 14.05.04
Well, harsh can be good. Ganesh is a fairly perspicacious Elephantine God, who has crumpled me with "poor interpersonal skills".... which is true, "Narcissism"... which I hope is not, and "not the way to go" which I'm considering advice.

All in all, it wasn't to bad, and finished on a light note. When I started the thread, I was in what could loosely be described as a dip. I have subsequently risen, and I will fall again in a short time.

Everything that has been written here is productive, and that's a great thing.
Thanks to all them what said stuff.
 
 
solomon
19:13 / 14.05.04
human primate dynamics hampering your social skills? yeah, mostly when you point them out to people. i wonder why? i notice this, and sometmes it bugs me , but mostly i just accept it. you also tend to notice it in the behavior of others rather than your own behavior. funny, that. so we're abunch of hairless apes. big deal.

really it only bothers me when i notice primate behavior and social organization in global politics, not at the dinner table. the silverbacks still run the troop, and we still fight the troop across the river for food (or oil, whatever).
but the more people are aware of it, the more we're able to tweak it a bit. i hope
 
 
Lord Morgue
12:15 / 24.05.04
Desmond Morris has a lot to answer for.
I do think that too much self-awareness can leave you a bit off-kilter, for example, one psychiatrist I knew had the most exquisitly fucked-up body language I have ever seen- my Mother still describes him accusing me of "inappropriate behaviour", while sitting cross-legged in a normal chair, writhing and squirming like some kind of flea-infested Yogi... I think it may have been to do with too much training in interpreting body language, he kept trying to do something meaningless and neutral, and ended up looking like Marcelle Marceau under electric torture. Or he just could have been a big fathead spaz, as my schoolmates all held.
 
 
Undermost Salamander
18:15 / 31.05.04
I think some of the awkwardness O_o_O is experiencing might stem from being convinced that at some point, humans (or proto-humans) were all obviously conscious of their body posturing & etc.

supposedly at some point in our past, we as individuals were much more aware of visual posturing, cries for attention, grunts of dominance.

As we have reached the 21st centaury, this form of communication has fallen somewhat by the wayside.. or perhaps more accurately it has become assimilated into our unconscious


we don't know that this is true. it seems reasonable, because verbal language has superseded body language as our primary method of communication, but how much of verbal language are we conscious of? not much. it's mostly the meaning, and although we do notice people's word choice (especially in terms of how much sense it makes) it seems like that could be compared to noticing that someone's body language is particularly graceful/awkward, rather than breaking it down into "she's standing close to him like that and he's leaning off to the side and that means..."

so the summary is: I would come down on the side of "most people just don't think about it," and we never have.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:04 / 02.06.04
Being aware of the reasons behind why we do something may cause you to think twice before doing it: but can it not also be said that knowing why we do something, knowing that there is a reward for us, will give us greater impetus do it? Is this not why (e.g.) jocks choose to be jocks and cheerleaders to be cheerleaders in the first place?
 
 
Lord Morgue
09:05 / 03.06.04
Jocks and cheerleaders have free will?
Shouldn't this be in the Ape Rights thread?
 
  
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